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shyguywannadie
1st April 2004, 13:34
Full story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3561365.stm)

Twenty-year-old Zafran Mukantwari was the only person in her family who survived the genocide.
I meet her sitting outside Kigali's Al-Aqsa mosque.

She is tightly veiled and speaks softly as she tells me what happened 10 years ago.

Her family were Catholic, she says. Those who killed them worshipped at the same church.

At the age of 10, Zafran found herself alone and at first she continued going to church.

She thought she could find support there. But then she began to question her faith.

"When I realised that the people I was praying with killed my parents, I preferred to become a Muslim because Muslims did not kill."

No protection

Before the genocide more than 60% of Rwandans were Catholic.

And when the killings started, tens of thousands of Tutsis fled to churches for sanctuary. But they found little protection there.

Some members of the Church failed in their mission, they contradicted what they stood for

Father Antoine Kambanda
Director of the charity, Caritas
Churches became sites of slaughter, carried out even at the altar.

On the opposite side of Kigali from Al Aqsa mosque, is the church of Sainte Famille. As dawn mass is celebrated, the sound of hymns carries outside and floats across the waking city.

During the genocide, hundreds of Tutsis crammed inside here trying to escape the horrors unfolding outside. But Hutu militias came repeatedly with lists of those to be killed.

The priest in charge of the church, Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka, is blamed for colluding with the killers.

Discarding his priest's cassock, witnesses say he took to wearing a flack jacket and carrying a pistol.

"Some members of the Church failed in their mission, they contradicted what they stood for," says Father Antoine Kambanda, director of the charity, Caritas, in Kigali.

He acknowledges that while some priests and nuns risked their lives trying to stop the slaughter, others were implicated in the killings.

"We are sorry for what took place, sorry for the members of the Church that did crimes, sorry for the victims who lost their lives.

"But the Pope says the members who went against their mission are to answer for it. The Church cannot answer for them."

Turning to Islam

This position that blame lies with individuals, rather the Church as an institution, is still highly controversial, as Rwanda marks the tenth anniversary of the genocide.


Many Rwandans have converted to Islam
The Church hierarchy in Rwanda supported the previous regime of President Juvenal Habyarimana. And they failed to denounce ethnic hatred then being disseminated.

Some survivors like Zafran have since left the Catholic Church, unable to reconcile the Church's teaching with the actions of its most senior members during the genocide.

Sheikh Saleh Habimana, the Mufti of Rwanda, is the representative of the country's Muslims.

He says many turned to Islam because Muslims were seen to have acted differently.

"The roofs of Muslim houses were full of non-Muslims hiding. Muslims are not answerable before God for the blood of innocent people."

But after the genocide, converting to Islam was also seen by some as the safest option.

"For the Hutus, everyone was saying as long as I look like a Muslim everybody will accept that I don't have blood on my hands.

"And for the Tutsis they said let me embrace Islam because Muslims in genocide never die. So one was looking for purification, the other was looking for protection."

Finding comfort

It was not only Islam that disillusioned Catholics turned to after the genocide. Evangelical churches have also flooded into the country in the past 10 years, and found many new recruits.

We thought God had left us and with the Pentecostal church we were comforted

Sylvie Isimbi
Sylvie Isimbi was hiding in a Catholic school with her father and other Tutsis during the genocide.

When the militias finally broke in, her father was shot.

Sylvia then watched friends and neighbours raped and murdered. Afterwards she turned to one of the new Pentecostal churches for support.

"We were Catholic before. But we had lost confidence in human beings.

We thought God had left us. And with the Pentecostal church we were comforted. We were able to cope with the situation."

Responsibility

But evangelical churches have come under fire for the methods they use to recruit their new followers. Father Antoine Kambanda says they have tried to lure converts when they are at their most vulnerable, spiritually and materially.

"People are very fragile now. Many are traumatised by the genocide. So they use cheap solutions to attract them."

Father Kambanda believes some of those who left are now returning to Catholicism.

"Often they are disillusioned and they come back. The Catholic Church remains with the biggest number of members."

But today the Church is attempting to maintain this position against the growth of both Islam and other Christian religions.

And 10 years on, it is still under pressure to accept greater responsibility for the role of its own members during the genocide.

El Tipo
1st April 2004, 14:06
You cant really blame the religions for human stupidity.

God of Imperia
1st April 2004, 14:08
Besides, there are some etnic diffrences also, it's not all because of religion ... me thinks

SittingBull47
1st April 2004, 14:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 02:34 PM


Her family were Catholic, she says. Those who killed them worshipped at the same church.



She thought she could find support there. But then she began to question her faith.

"When I realised that the people I was praying with killed my parents, I preferred to become a Muslim because Muslims did not kill."

No protection

Before the genocide more than 60% of Rwandans were Catholic.


Unfortunately the tainted history of the Catholic church and some smaller fanatical factions still continue to survive. This reminds me of why i turned away from organized religion.

Solace
1st April 2004, 14:15
This has nothing to do with Philosophy.

Look, it's all cool with the I hate religion and bla bla bla, but at least apply it where it can be applied. The roots of this conflict are deeper than it seems and religion is not the main cause. Plus, they are not killing in the name of a God.

shyguywannadie
1st April 2004, 14:19
Religion is human stupidity, made up crap.

God of Imperia
1st April 2004, 14:21
You can't forbid people to believe in something greater than life!

Solace
1st April 2004, 14:22
Religion is human stupidity, made up crap.

And you are a very confused kid.

shyguywannadie
1st April 2004, 14:30
I am not confused, my mind is very clear on the matter.

Religion is the course of the majority or wars throughout history.


God doesnt exist, get over it!


Also as a communist if, in theory, god did exist he should be overthrown, wasnt it Karl Marx that said something similar on the subject!?!

Pedro Alonso Lopez
1st April 2004, 15:49
Religion is the course of the majority or wars throughout history.

I assume you mean cause, religion was used as a way to invade other countries as a front to imperialism.

I am not religious but some things get distorted by repetition.


God doesnt exist, get over it!

You dont know that for show, stop being so cocky.


Also as a communist if, in theory, god did exist he should be overthrown, wasnt it Karl Marx that said something similar on the subject!?!

I thought i was the bourgeoius, besides dosent God not exist? ;)

A little continiuty never goes astray.

Speaking of I need a ciggie.

Individual
1st April 2004, 16:47
Let's examine the whole situation.

Philosophy is the right area for this thread...Em k? ;)

In hating religion, this should not be a solid excuse to not believe in God.

Nobody at this point in time can prove God's existance, however at the opposite nobody can prove that he doesn't exist. The issue is a stalemate.

What can be disproved, is religion.

In hating religion, do not discredit God as a being. The God, or father, that you read about in the bible is one of fantasy land. The bible is clearly wrong, and can be disproved in many of its statements simply by digging a whole in the ground, or examining certain trees. Simple as that.

God however could be a part of the human mind, a figment of one's imagination. However what is to say that God is not real only because of one's desire to believe? While religion is obviously false, and a scam of which to imply certain morals upon society, while making a successful business at the same time.

While God may is not composed of matter, or even anti-matter; God could be real due to one's ability to believe in God. The fact that the human mind has the capability of belief, leads me to believe that a god could be real. Now while I am agnostic, and have very strong feelings against religion and religion's Gods, I am open and understanding to those that can believe in God. My reasoning is simple, I can't prove that you are wrong as you can't prove that I'm wrong; therefore why should I tell you that you are wrong when I have no proof.

Obviously religion is different from this, and we all know how to discredit religion, however none of us can discredit God as a figment of our imagination. I believe the universe is there, why can't you except someone's belief of something in their imagination?

God of Imperia
1st April 2004, 16:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 05:30 PM
God doesnt exist, get over it!
Do you mean that I don't exist? I should know if I didn't, otherwise my whole life is fake...

Invader Zim
1st April 2004, 16:53
Nobody at this point in time can prove God's existance, however at the opposite nobody can prove that he doesn't exist. The issue is a stalemate.

Nope, only if you use very flawed logic. True you cant prove that god doesnt exist, but you cant prove santa doesnt exist, you cant prove that pixies dont exist, you cant prove that the world is not run by a collection of invisible carrots, who's colour changes every full moon. So the logical path is to demand that such ludercrus beings do exist, not the other way round. So until I see conclusive proof that a god exists then it is far from stalemate.

God of Imperia
1st April 2004, 17:08
But you know, what is a conclusive proof to you?

Individual
1st April 2004, 17:10
Enigma.

You totally misinterpeted what I said.

Read this again:


Obviously religion is different from this, and we all know how to discredit religion, however none of us can discredit God as a figment of our imagination

Meaning that whether or not any of us believe that God exists, how can you disprove someone's belief that resides in their own mind?

What if God is just that, a figment of one's imagination? The fact that because one can believe in it, it is real.

I see why this is hard for you to interpret, and this may be due to my presentation. However just think of it that way; how can you disprove something that is physically not real, meaning that their is no evidence against it beside merely your abrupt assumption?

I have very strong feelings that God is not physically real, God did not create the Universe, and God doesn't solve life's problems. Hell I personally don't believe in God at all. I am not going to discredit one's beliefs, assuming that these beliefs reside in one's head for a certain reason.

Again, get away from the God in the bible, and interpret it as someone's personal God.

How can you disprove that because people can believe something in their mind, that it isn't real? Again, this is my personal belief and one that I have thought on since I was a junior. I have never been inside a church, synagogue, temple, etc in my entire like. Not once. So don't think I am defending religion, for I have very strong beliefs against religion, however realize that things are part of one's mind for a reason. Why would someone believe something in their head? How did those thoughts get there? Don't say that it is because society puts them there, for think of ancient civilizations. These thoughts have been around for ages, and they got there somehow.

My theory; these thoughts are part of one's imagination. God is nowhere, God is not real. God is only a thought in someone's mind.

This is what I was saying.

Invader Zim
1st April 2004, 17:24
AlwaysQuestion

Sorry, my bad.

God of Imperia

Facts which have been certified beyond all reasonable doubt.

shyguywannadie
1st April 2004, 17:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 04:49 PM

Religion is the course of the majority or wars throughout history.

I assume you mean cause, religion was used as a way to invade other countries as a front to imperialism.

I am not religious but some things get distorted by repetition.


God doesnt exist, get over it!

You dont know that for show, stop being so cocky.


Also as a communist if, in theory, god did exist he should be overthrown, wasnt it Karl Marx that said something similar on the subject!?!

I thought i was the bourgeoius, besides dosent God not exist? ;)

A little continiuty never goes astray.

Speaking of I need a ciggie.
Im sure you mean sure now "show" but thanks for picking up on my bad spelling.

Also, I said in THEORY IF god existed. NOT that I think he does.

God of Imperia
1st April 2004, 17:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 08:24 PM
AlwaysQuestion

Sorry, my bad.

God of Imperia

Facts which have been certified beyond all reasonable doubt.
But you know, it is almost impossible, I think there shall never be THE proof of god's existence, but also can't you proof that he doesn't exist ...

Dune Dx
1st April 2004, 18:40
Religion gives us wicked holidays!!!!!

and I think relating God to pixies is a little silly people dont believe in pixies and you can prove God exists its just people dont choose to exept it as proof

Invader Zim
1st April 2004, 19:07
Originally posted by God of Imperia+Apr 1 2004, 06:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (God of Imperia @ Apr 1 2004, 06:57 PM)
[email protected] 1 2004, 08:24 PM
AlwaysQuestion

Sorry, my bad.

God of Imperia

Facts which have been certified beyond all reasonable doubt.
But you know, it is almost impossible, I think there shall never be THE proof of god&#39;s existence, but also can&#39;t you proof that he doesn&#39;t exist ... [/b]
shit argument, because I cant prove I even exist, I cant prove this isn&#39;t all a dream created by a unicorn with wings. hense the reasonable doubt.

but also can&#39;t you proof that he doesn&#39;t exist ...

True you cant prove that god doesnt exist, but you cant prove santa doesnt exist, you cant prove that pixies dont exist, you cant prove that the world is not run by a collection of invisible carrots, who&#39;s colour changes every full moon. So the logical path is to demand that such ludercrus beings do exist, not the other way round. So until I see conclusive proof that a god exists then it is far from stalemate.

post 4000

Invader Zim
1st April 2004, 19:09
Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 1 2004, 07:40 PM
Religion gives us wicked holidays&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

and I think relating God to pixies is a little silly people dont believe in pixies and you can prove God exists its just people dont choose to exept it as proof
and I think relating God to pixies is a little silly

Why

and you can prove God exists its just people dont choose to exept it as proof

No you cant, if you could, we wouldn&#39;t be having this debate.

Dune Dx
1st April 2004, 19:20
ahh but if i say ive had answered parayers u will say its coincidence if I say I see Gods creation in the amazing design of the world u will say its evolution.

I think its silly comparing pixies to God because there is no one who believes in fairies where as there are lots of people that beleve in God and pray to God.
Because historical evidence shows the life of jesus and what he did

Invader Zim
1st April 2004, 19:35
Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 1 2004, 08:20 PM
ahh but if i say ive had answered parayers u will say its coincidence if I say I see Gods creation in the amazing design of the world u will say its evolution.

I think its silly comparing pixies to God because there is no one who believes in fairies where as there are lots of people that beleve in God and pray to God.
Because historical evidence shows the life of jesus and what he did
ahh but if i say ive had answered parayers u will say its coincidence if I say I see Gods creation in the amazing design of the world u will say its evolution."

Your entirley right

where as there are lots of people that beleve in God and pray to God.

and? Just because people are stupid enough to believe doesnt make it any less infantile and stupid.

Because historical evidence shows the life of jesus and what he did

It shows record of a political leader called jesus, it has no mention of his many miricals, etc, and actually generally leads to the conclusion that there was more than one man.

Nickademus
2nd April 2004, 06:17
a couple of things i want to say:

1. its true that just because you can&#39;t disprove something doesn&#39;t mean it exists. the one eyed one horned flying purple people eater doesn&#39;t exist simply because i can&#39;t prove that it doesn&#39;t exist.

2. everyone here seems to be relating GOD to the Christian concept of god ... there are other people that have different conceptions of GOd so lets not forget that.

3. the bible is a nice story, but from a historians poitn of view, it is NOT conclusive evidence that Jesus ever even existed.

4. are we talking about religion itself or organized religion ... religions are not necessarily the things that create wars until followers become organized and the leaders still telling people they are folllowing the &#39;right&#39; religion and they must save everyone else. A religion that is accepting of other people and their choices is not likely to create the havoc that many organized religions have created.