Cuban reforms on Cnn [Archive]

bluerev002

31st March 2004, 00:49

Originally posted by EL CHICO [email protected] 30 2004, 04:25 PM
I was on CNN.com today and saw some of the reforms people wanted in cuba.
Now while I don't think castro is a perticularly brutal dictator he is still a dictator and thats not good. Now that statement may sound a little to the right but jus 4 the record im a socialist and damn proud too.
i beleive there were three reforms
1. freedom of speech and assembly: ok thats good I would like to see that.
2.free elections: Might not be good for Castro but I think the people would probably vote socialist(for the free healthcare and other social programs)maby even communist if the above reforms were made.so thats good

And then

...3. privatize biusness, property, wealth ect.: noooo! not capitalism why capitalism. just wanted to hear what my fellow comrades think
odd, I thought Cubans already had freedom of speech and assembly.

Free elections have never worked in latin america, Cuba would be no exeption

EL CHICO ROJO

31st March 2004, 02:19

you will have to forgive my ignorance to these things you see I live in the US and it is hard to get any castro/cuba info that dosn't make him sound like stalin
an you can't ask the cubans in the US either they cosider him to be the scum of the earth( cause they were the exploiters before the rvolution occured)
I can't ignore all the bad things though he is rather strict on criticism of the gov. but the cuban do live better than most latin americans( I visited Ecuador several times cause i have family there and they consider castro a hero)accually I learned about Che in Ecuador at an underground cafe / marxist meeting place i was shown the place by my cousin a member of the socialist party in ecuador
You see im actually pretty new to the american marxist sceen but have been around socialists and pacifists for some time
i my self was a former pacifist but i will put those belifs aside until the revolution has been achieved

shyguywannadie

31st March 2004, 23:52

Castro is a great man, CNN is bullshit ignore everything they say.

I find www.news.bbc.co.uk is a good news website not as right wing as CNN and fox news

Salvador Allende

3rd April 2004, 16:42

if you want to see how free-elections work in Latin America, take a look at Chile. In 1958 Salvador Allende came within 3% of winning the elections (he was in the Socialist party going for an all-out Marxist-Leninist government). The US then pumped millions into the opposition for the next 2 elections, however, Allende still won the election. The US CIA then supported, helped and staged a military coup in 1973 which put the harsh military dictator Augusto Pinochet in power. Pinochet then killed healthcare and education and put it into the military and sent many people to concentration camps while the US turned their backs to everything going on there. Fortunately Pinochet was finally kicked out in the early 90's.

God of Imperia

3rd April 2004, 16:52

That's the way the US government thinks, how the world can let them do such things ... fucking CIA

Scottish_Militant

3rd April 2004, 18:14

Also, take a look at the situation in Venezuela right now!

socialistfuture

4th April 2004, 08:12

Last month I met a man from Cuba. He was doing a speech in Auckland.
He was very confident and totally supported Fidel. I asked him what he thought would happen when Fidel dies, he said the people will continue, new leaders have been created. He said Fidel was the spiritual leader of Cuba and he will guide them. There was a large enthisis on Josi marti in his speech. Cuba is proud to no longer be called 'the whore of america'.

The fact is if the people of Cuba wanted Castro out he would of gone long ago. America may call Cuba a terrorist nation but how many times has it made attacks on the american mainland? How many times have Cubans attempted to assasinate american presidents?

What America did to Chile was sick. Latin America is not the property of the USA. Cuba has a right to be independant. There are shortfalls in Cuba as with anywhere else in the world. America is not a democracy. the presidancy chages hands between either a rich republican or democrat. it is money based. when america has a democracy then it can lecture on it. When it has a good human rights record then it can turn its eye abroud. Cuba for Cubans!

Viva la revolucion!!!!!

elbolao23

4th April 2004, 18:47

:angry: I feel sorry for you because you're all wrong by thinking thhat Fidel Castro is a Good man, now i know that none of you have ever lived in Cuba and suffered with this man on power. What you see or hear about this man being good is all wrong. Come ask me or any other cuban that has ever lived in cuba the Majority of his live. Now i'm only 16 years old but before you take this fact and think that i'm just bullshiting read this replay.
You might hear that the education in Cuba is good ............... and it is, the teachers treat better the students but there are no books, no pencils, no classrooms no nothing. The Health system is good because unlike here in the U.S if you don't have insurance they don't take you, well in Cuba they take you inside the Hospital and treat you good but when the time for getting medecins come if you don't have friends working on pharmacies your're pretty much screwd because the fact is that if you don't hava "palanca" or friends working on the inside you're not getting anything. Now if you were a Tourists theres everything for you, the best attention, the best medecins everything you could ask for. Why do you think the 80% of the Cubans Girls have to do prostitution? why? because their family does not have enough money to survive, if you live in cuba and does not have families living in the US your gonna have a really rough time. So you think Castro is a good man, think again, how would you like living in Cuba getting paid 6 or 8 dollars a month , because that is what my mom used to get wjen she worked in cuba, and no she wasen't no street cleaner she was a doctor. How would you like living in Cuba and not having a chance to eat beef in your life because they said it's illegal to eat beef while all the tourists are eating it in your face. How would you like living in Cuba only getting 5 eggs , 5 punds of roce and beans on a month for a family of three, How would you like living in Cuba where the people that work for Fidel get all the good things, the cars, the food and the respect. How would you like living in a place where you can't express your opinion or else you go to jail, because my dad went to jail for a month just for saying that it wasen't fair thet the "pinchos" or chiefs get everything before them. How would you like living in a place where there is propaganda everyware washing your mind that Fidel is the Savior and the Patria o Muerte Venceremos. Hown would you like to live in a place where you can't go on vacations outside your country because if you do you might not come back.How would you like to live in a place where everywhere you go you're being watched, where you have no privacy at all. If Fidel Castro was a good man like you said he is why doeesn't he let them travel the world and see new things? you know why , because if he did he would not have anyone to torture of hunger and freedom.I bet you wouldn't like living in that place, well thats how it is in Fidel's Cuba. And trust me your are getting this form the horses mouth, i'm 16 years old and i lived the first 14 years of my life living i a place where the only good thing was Fidel and Comunismw i'm not saying Communism is bad beacuse it isn't, but comunism only works on paper , because when its taken to real live it stinks. I just hope that you realize what you are saying because only half is true. Maybe some of you might have seen the prisions which Fidel just showed the world and how pretty they looked, well its a hoax because in Cuba there is a thing Called CDR (Comitee de Defensa de la Revolucion). Every neighborhood has that. And everytime that the chief of the CDR knows that somebody importat is comming everybody has to get up early and start painting the block and bring plants to make it look good so that the people coming get a good impression , the same thing is done in the school. A normal day in a school , this is what you get for lunch: some rice, maybe beans, potato and sometimes fries. Now when somebody iportant comes you see them all desperate and getting meat and desserts and everything.So the next time you say that Cuba is a Good place and that Fidel is a good man, please ask someone that live in his Dictatorship.

bunk

4th April 2004, 19:55

to an extent the lack of resources can be explained by the U.S embargo.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

4th April 2004, 21:47

Originally posted by EL CHICO [email protected] 31 2004, 12:25 AM
I was on CNN.com today and saw some of the reforms people wanted in cuba.
Now while I don't think castro is a perticularly brutal dictator he is still a dictator and thats not good. Now that statement may sound a little to the right but jus 4 the record im a socialist and damn proud too.
i beleive there were three reforms
1. freedom of speech and assembly: ok thats good I would like to see that.
2.free elections: Might not be good for Castro but I think the people would probably vote socialist(for the free healthcare and other social programs)maby even communist if the above reforms were made.so thats good

And then

...3. privatize biusness, property, wealth ect.: noooo! not capitalism why capitalism. just wanted to hear what my fellow comrades think
You should be aware for such demands made by "the Cuban people". By an act of coincidence I have just read a piece about the NED (National Endowment for Democracy) in William Blum's Rogue State. And the "demands" sound like the NED guidelines.

In short; the NED is an CIA funded organisation which supports opposition parties of US enemies.

"Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED was quite candid when he said in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA." In effect, the CIA has been laundering money through NED. " - William Blum Rogue State

http://www.questionsquestions.net/feldman/nation_ned_1.html

Ofcourse the official story is different.

The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) is a private, nonprofit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world through nongovernmental efforts. The Endowment is governed by an independent, nonpartisan board of directors. With its annual congressional appropriation, it makes hundreds of grants each year to support prodemocracy groups in Africa, Asia, Central and Eastern Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, and the former Soviet Union.

http://www.ned.org/about/about.html

Don't read "Pro-Democracy" read rightwinged, pro-US groups. The NED does reveal that one of it's goals is to benefit the US. Nongovernmental: :lol: :lol:

"The National Endowment for Democracy (NED) was launched in the early 1980s, premised on the idea that American assistance on behalf of democracy efforts abroad would be good both for the U.S."

The Cuban dissidents are one of NED's favorite partners.

"NED's work in Cuba began primarily with support for dissidents and human rights activists on the island. "

http://www.ned.org/about/helping.html

Yazman

5th April 2004, 04:04

i'm not saying Communism is bad beacuse it isn't, but comunism only works on paper , because when its taken to real live it stinks.

elbolao, the second you said this, you lost any and all credibility in my eyes. That is one of the most ignorant arguments a person can ever use.

For somebody who claims to have seen brainwashing occur, you seem to have been brainwashed quite well yourself by the US.

Nice work there cappie, let's all resign ourselves to the "it can't work" idea so we can all sit on our asses ignoring the problems gaining money, instead of giving our serious best straight from the heart so we can attain a better life for the oppressed classes.

If EVERYBODY had your attitude, guys like Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, and Nelson Mandela would never have achieved anything. They would have just sat there saying "I guess racial equality will never work, only on paper, because we blacks are naturally inferior. When you take racial equality away it only works on paper, we need systems like apartheid to keep people in check."

elbolao23, you moron.

CorporationsRule

5th April 2004, 05:50

Castro can't allow the kind of "freedom of speech" the NED wants. What "freedom of speech" means to them is the freedom to spend boat loads of money on marketting. The Sandanistas in Nicaragua lost power because they weren't able to keep US money (the NED) out of their elections.

And to call them a "non-governmental" organization is insane. They get money directly from Congress every year...then they invest it so that they're war chest just keeps growing.

Just think what the US would do if any other country was funelling money into our elections.

Just think...do it...THINK DAMN YOU!

See?

elbolao23

5th April 2004, 23:25

the thing you said about Cuba's being poor for the fact that the US Embargo has on them might be truth, but did you know that Cuba is not really poor,did you know that Fidel Castro is the the 8th most rich man in the world, where do you think he gets all his money.................exactly. Now when i said the comunism wasen't bad but that i didn't really work what i meant was that this dosen't work in CUBA WITH FIDEL ON POWER. All this man does is steal from the poor people in Cuba like my family and then giving it to the tourists for a high price to then keep all the money.
Now think about the rest of the things that i said about the facts of living in Cuba like not having a chace to travel to where ever you felt , to say what you feel, to eat what you want, to have an equal oportunity to get the same thing tourists get, beacuse in Cuba if you do not have a passport you can't get into a hotel, can't travel the world, can't get the medicins you need for your family. etc.

shyguywannadie

5th April 2004, 23:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 11:25 PM
the thing you said about Cuba's being poor for the fact that the US Embargo has on them might be truth, but did you know that Cuba is not really poor,did you know that Fidel Castro is the the 8th most rich man in the world, where do you think he gets all his money.................exactly. Now when i said the comunism wasen't bad but that i didn't really work what i meant was that this dosen't work in CUBA WITH FIDEL ON POWER. All this man does is steal from the poor people in Cuba like my family and then giving it to the tourists for a high price to then keep all the money.
Now think about the rest of the things that i said about the facts of living in Cuba like not having a chace to travel to where ever you felt , to say what you feel, to eat what you want, to have an equal oportunity to get the same thing tourists get, beacuse in Cuba if you do not have a passport you can't get into a hotel, can't travel the world, can't get the medicins you need for your family. etc.
Do you have any links or anything to support that? or did you just make it up?

Akasha

6th April 2004, 19:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 06:25 PM
in CUBA WITH FIDEL ON POWER. All this man does is steal from the poor people in Cuba like my family and then giving it to the tourists for a high price to then keep all the money.
Now think about the rest of the things that i said about the facts of living in Cuba like not having a chace to travel to where ever you felt , to say what you feel, to eat what you want, to have an equal oportunity to get the same thing tourists get, beacuse in Cuba if you do not have a passport you can't get into a hotel, can't travel the world, can't get the medicins you need for your family. etc.
I would like to see some actual proof of what you're saying. I'm assuming you're an American?? Cuba does not recognize dual citizenship so if you are then you're not a Cuban (cough cough traitor cough cough). So in Cuba you have to have a passport to get medicine? Which report told you that Castro was the 8th richest man in the world? So Fidel steals from the poor and gives it to the tourists? In Cuba there are restrictions to when you can eat? Is there like a set mealtime or what? How does that work? If you're caught eating at 5:30 instead of 6pm is there a firing squad? 80% of Cuban women are prostitutes??? Wow so I guess the Cubans I know have been hiding their secret lives from me for all these years. I wish I could find a more eloquent way of ending this but I can't...

You're an idiot. :angry:

Heesh

7th April 2004, 03:26

I am new to cuba as well, but it looks to me like Castro is a good man. I just have one question though, if the majority supports Castro why are Cubans so notorious for swimming over to florida?

Som

7th April 2004, 04:29

I am new to cuba as well, but it looks to me like Castro is a good man. I just have one question though, if the majority supports Castro why are Cubans so notorious for swimming over to florida?

Because people from poorer countries move to richer countries all the time.

Mexico as a perfect example, Mexicans emigrate the US a lot more, and some of the routes they take through the desert are just as dangerous as the 90 mile straight in an inner tube, they do this knowing full well if theyre caught they'll be sent right home, unlike the Cubans who are basically guaranteed the right to stay if they make it, and many of which have relatives ready to help them out.

Cuba allows 20,000 cubans a year to emigrate to US legally.

Thats it for the most part, Cuba isn't exactly abundant in material wealth, there are some who make the trip for political reasons.

did you know that Fidel Castro is the the 8th most rich man in the world, where do you think he gets all his money

Not even close. looking it up, the 8th richest is an american buisnessman named Jim Walton. But nevermind that.

The sources that attempt to call Castro corrupt are all very slyly worded, first of all its 110 billion dollars, with the words 'at his disposal' and they calculate that because its 10% of Cubas GDP. Does this mean all that money is in his private swiss bank accounts so he can buy expensive things all for his greedy little self? I doubt it, it could just be money he has access to in relation to the Cuban economy, were it needed. You need to be a lot more wary of shit like this, read it carefully.

Yazman

7th April 2004, 05:30

http://www.jengajam.com/r/169

That's the list of the richest in the world.

Fidel Castro is not in it at all.

http://www.forbes.com/2001/06/21/top15billionaires.html

There's another list.

Fidel isn't on it, either.

Heesh

7th April 2004, 05:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 11:29 PM

I am new to cuba as well, but it looks to me like Castro is a good man. I just have one question though, if the majority supports Castro why are Cubans so notorious for swimming over to florida?

Because people from poorer countries move to richer countries all the time.

Mexico as a perfect example, Mexicans emigrate the US a lot more, and some of the routes they take through the desert are just as dangerous as the 90 mile straight in an inner tube, they do this knowing full well if theyre caught they'll be sent right home, unlike the Cubans who are basically guaranteed the right to stay if they make it, and many of which have relatives ready to help them out.

Cuba allows 20,000 cubans a year to emigrate to US legally.

Thats it for the most part, Cuba isn't exactly abundant in material wealth, there are some who make the trip for political reasons.

did you know that Fidel Castro is the the 8th most rich man in the world, where do you think he gets all his money

Not even close. looking it up, the 8th richest is an american buisnessman named Jim Walton. But nevermind that.

The sources that attempt to call Castro corrupt are all very slyly worded, first of all its 110 billion dollars, with the words 'at his disposal' and they calculate that because its 10% of Cubas GDP. Does this mean all that money is in his private swiss bank accounts so he can buy expensive things all for his greedy little self? I doubt it, it could just be money he has access to in relation to the Cuban economy, were it needed. You need to be a lot more wary of shit like this, read it carefully.
well why are those same cubans so contemptuous of castro then?

Som

7th April 2004, 06:21

well why are those same cubans so contemptuous of castro then?

Because unlike mexicos circus democracy, its easier for those cubans to pretend all their economic woes are the fault of Castro and castro alone.

They also move into a political culture full of propaganda and outright lies, where its made out to be that the reason Havanna isn't as wealthy as Miami is solely because Fidel Castro is some evil megomanical tyrant, pretending that Cuba isn't a third world country that twice had its primary trading partner completly removed.

oh, another statistic off the top of my head thats relevant, 1 in 4 filipinos, one of those vibrant capitalist democracies, would move from the country if they could, most citing poverty, the number for cubans is more like 1 in 16.

Castro, by most counts, is pretty well liked, or at least tolerated, and for the most part people realize that socialism in cuba, for all its authotaritarian aspects is better than a capitalist alternative. Its just those that don't like it seem to get real polarized.

Voice of the Revolution

7th April 2004, 14:32

Not able to back this up, but I was sure that the Cuban Communist Party was actually growing rather than shrinking.

cubist

7th April 2004, 17:26

well reallyl cuba is a bad place, maybe

but in america those taht can't afford to live don't get health care either.

people dream of living with money and being rich! but 90% of america belongs to 10% of the population of america the rest will never get rich and have to work as wage slaves many scraping the bread line lots not even making the bread line and they don't get health care at all.

working 70 hours to keep a child alive and still not affording to pay rent is wrong should never be allowed to happen but in america it does.

that dream of riches is what keeps you in capitalism and keeps you poor cus it makes them richer,

elbolao23

7th April 2004, 19:55

man i just wish that you lived in Cuba just for one year without dollars, i bet that by the time you came back ou would not be talking all this shit that you think you know because of what you have HEARD not LIVEd like i did. And no i'm no traitor i loved my country and i'm a Cuban till the day i die i just don't like the fact that my people con get a bistec fr their kids once in a while. And no there is no time set for you to eat and they won't get you locked for eating a 5:30 i never said anything like that, what i said is that there is no godamn food for the Cubans only for the tourists and you can ask any real cuban that came only a while ago like me. While in Cuba i never ate a shrimp nor a steak once 6 months not once. Now you all think that Cuba is a good country and Fidel is a good man, well why don't you go to Cuba and experience it like a Cuban not like a tourists and i bet you'll come back running . Why? cause there is no food, no freedom of speech, no feeedom of religion, and no freedom of voting. Imagine having bush as a president for 45 years.............................yeah that would get you mad wouldn't it. Imajine that and then think how i and all the other cubans feel about Fidel Castro. Just Imagine

bunk

7th April 2004, 21:19

Take one moment. Why does Cuba have a lack of food? Surely you can work that out.

Saint-Just

7th April 2004, 21:41

It comes to them all, all socialist countries have reformed like this. It is happening to the DPRK and Cuba.

Free elections are rubbish, absolute rubbish. Free elections and many parties is a device used by bourgeois dictatorships to give the illusion of freedom. We choose between bourgeois parties who will not serve the interests of humanity but only seek to uphold their system, the unfair and unequal system of ownership and wage slavery that exists in capitalist society.

Neo-Liberalism and Neo-Conservatism prevails across the world, and this is why this is happening. We will all end up living in harsh, individualist societies with a poor view of humanity. Cooperation, humanity and human kindness will become more and more rarities in society, rare types of behaviours that are only appreciated by a few. The Neo-Liberal leaders will shape the masses into inhuman human beings. Those of us on this site a chosen few in society, those who want a new kind of society and have all the right ideas, ambitions and desires to remove these oppressors.

Dirty Commie

7th April 2004, 21:46

I'm not denying that Castro has done lots of bad things...however, if the right wing dictatorshop of Batista had continued, and he was replaced after his death by another pro amerikan dictator, the situation would be much worse.

Sure there would be billions and billions of dollars in cuba, but it would be in the hands of corporations and land owners who could deny jobs and housing to people who didn't work hard enough or long enough etc.

At least now people have guarenteed housing and the like.

elbolao23

7th April 2004, 23:31

No you are wrong, in Cuba there is no lack of food, don't blame the embargo because if you are a tourist you can get all the types of food you'd like if you have money.So there is no really embargo there is it. Money is a big issue in Cuba, people who dosen't have families in the United States that sends them money to eat and to buy the most simple things that are ONLY sold in dollars like soap, deodorant, toothpaste, and evrything you could think about, its all for dollars and most people only win 200 to 300 pesos a month, considering that 1 dollar is 28 pesos................do your math. Why dosen't Fidel pay their workers in dollars because he gets millions and millions on tourism.And the thing about the house .yes is true and i accept that. And thats a good thing

Som

8th April 2004, 07:08

You're making it out to be Catros fault, and his alone, which is simplistic nonsense.

All these dollarization reforms and talk of tourists, do you think its some coincidence that Cuba had to do it in the last 10 years? The way the Cuban government is run, Cuba faced two options, a complete collapse of the socialist economic system or the tourist economy. It chose the latter, which is much less of a disaster than had it returned to capitalism.

The Cuban economy prior to the collapse of the soviet union, their major trading partner had none of those tourist amenities and dollarization, and you have to realize thats out of a desperate move to hold on to the socialist economy, and not because Fidel is some greedy demagogue. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Cuba lost the principle market for its economy and tourism seemed like the only thing to keep it afloat. Its not a good thing, but its probably one of the better options.

This isn't saying Castro is nice and cuddly guy, not at all, but blaming economic troubles of an island thats had consistent colonial economic relations for years on Castro's policies really wouldn't be accurate.

perception

9th April 2004, 03:30

elbolao23 -

I empathize with you, it's been harsh in Cuba for the last 15 years or so. You're right, for Cubans there is little as far as beef and shrimp and such. There's little food period, I know the rations don't provide for much of a diet. And the beef raised in Cuba, the shrimp and lobster caught in the fisheries, is exported or sold to tourists. But you have to admit that selling a lobster tail or a bistec to a turista for $12 a plate is better for the economy right now than selling it to a cubano for $.030. Tourist prices are gouged, prices in dollars are 10x what they are in pesos ($.30 sandwiches for Cubans, $3 sandwiches for tourists) At least you have meats like chicken and jamon for everybody; in many places in Latino America the poor only eat meat 1 or 2 times a month. The idea behind socialism is that the resources are spread among all the people; so since the beginning of the special period, when resources became tight, the burden was shared.

I have been to Cuba (albeit, as a tourist, but I tried my best to learn all I could from the people, who were all incredibly open and honest). I would tell you this: do not compare Cuba to the United States, but to the rest of Latin America. If Cuba joins the capitalist world, it will not become like America. It won't. It will become like the Republica Dominicana, or Brazil, or Colombia, or Nicaragua. Cuba has the best infrastructure in Latin America. The roads are all paved, electricity extends to the far corners of the island, every Cuban has a roof over their head. If Castro was hellbent on hoarding resources, why would he waste money building roads and putting solar panels on doctor's offices in the mountains? Cuba is a model of development for Latin America. Tourism has produced many blemishes for the society, but it has become the number one source of hard currency for Cuba's economy, and selling those bistecs to the tourists probably saved the country from starvation. On a positive note, Cuba has been able to import tens of millions of dollars worth of foodstuffs (including cattle) from US companies in the last year under the new embargo exemption.

And when I was in Cuba last march, the monthly salary was $10-$12 per month. But with food subsidized with ration cards, rent averaging $1/month and electricity bills averaging $0.45/month, the only thing that seemed in short supply was consumer goods such as clothing and such.

flayer2

9th April 2004, 04:49

Very interesting. You say you spoke to the Cuban people and they were open and honest. How do they feel about fidel and socialism and attitudes towards the united states?

perception

9th April 2004, 15:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 11:49 PM
Very interesting. You say you spoke to the Cuban people and they were open and honest. How do they feel about fidel and socialism and attitudes towards the united states?
Socialism - most of the people I talked to liked socialism because everyone was provided for, a lot of them wished the government would incorporate some of the 'good' elements of capitalism.

Fidel - the general consensus was that he was a good man and leader, but he was getting too old and it's time for someone new.

The US - They like Americans. Whenever I told anyone I was American they lit up. But they don't like the US government obviously. They resent the blockade and America's interference in Cuba's internal affairs. One Cuban told me "George Bush is the dumbest president you people ever elected."

The people feel the hardship of the economic collapse, it's something they deal with every day. There are shortages, long lines, rolling blackouts in the cities. The white cubans with relatives in the US generally have access to clothes and dollars while most of the darker cubans do not. A lot of the Cubans you meet will ask you for a shirt or a pair of shoes or anything you can spare. But don't kid yourself - if any other country in the world experienced a commensurate economic disaster (a 40% reduction in GDP overnight) there would have been starvation and chaos. I'll tell you this: several cubans I spoke to said it wasn't like this in the 80's. They had more money than they could spend.

Nas

9th April 2004, 17:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 03:26 AM
I am new to cuba as well, but it looks to me like Castro is a good man. I just have one question though, if the majority supports Castro why are Cubans so notorious for swimming over to florida?
they want to live under welfare :)

Akasha

9th April 2004, 18:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 02:55 PM
Why? cause there is no food, no freedom of speech, no feeedom of religion, and no freedom of voting. Imagine having bush as a president for 45 years.............................yeah that would get you mad wouldn't it. Imajine that and then think how i and all the other cubans feel about Fidel Castro. Just Imagine
No food...ask the homeless in the U$ how many meals a day they eat.
No freedom of speech....ask Sherman Austin how free the U$ is.
No freedom of voting...Gore lost by how many votes? How many of the citizens that Katherine Harris disenfranchised (someone correct me if that's the wrong word for it) would have voted for Gore?
I'm Canadian, I would have defected if I had to put up with Bush for 4 months never mind 4 or 45 years. I'd be on the first jet ski to Havana. What is so great about the "democracy" that we have here in the "first world?" Is it first world for the gov't to let it's people starve, to not provide them with free health care, employment, housing, education? What is so first world about our system of things? Even here in Canada, a country with so called free health care...you can go to the doctor but if you need meds you have to pay. I only went to "higher education" for two years and I'm still paying off my damn student loan. But hey we're free eh?

elbolao23

9th April 2004, 20:17

i did not ask you how many meals a day a homless eat, i did not ask you about Canada because frankly i don't care , i only care about my country Cuba and about my people which had sufferd for 45 years with the same freaking bastard on power knowing that he is never going to retire because he is gonna be there untill the day he dies which i wish i was tomorow giving 3 hours speeches which get shown on all the channels in Cuba,(that'd de only two) knowing that a fucking Mesa Redonda does not allowed the little kids form watching cartoons form 6 till 6:30. Where all you hear on TV is the US this and th US that and Fidel is the man that we have to thank everyday of aour lives .No man, its just not fair.

Yazman

12th April 2004, 12:39

You talk about fairness? You think you can talk about how great and wonderful our lives are?

You want to hear about the supposed "first world" from MY perspective? You want to hear about what it's like for ME, living in one of these countries you consider so brilliant and free? ok then, listen up.

Ever since being a child, I've been raised to believe that one day I will be rich. I have been raised to believe the entire purpose of my life is to try to become superior to everybody else, and to get a "good job" so I can get "good pay." I am stuck in a society consumed by greed, where the lesser classes are crushed and oppressed every single day, and where you are considered a worthless piece of trash if you don't have enough money.

I'm stuck in a world where only the rich get education, healthcare, and good treatment. The rest of us are ignored and left to starve every day. We can't get jobs because we don't have the right to one. We can't get jobs because we aren't educated, because we have no money. You need money to get education, and then lots of education to get a job. Not having the right to a job means that I can't get money in order to get educated, as education is not one of my rights. So no education for us, unless we're born into a family with enough money.

If I get sick, if I become poor, there's nothing there to support us, there's nothing there to cure us, because we don't have the right to healthcare. We are ignored and left to die in the streets. Because we aren't all born into rich families, most of us can't afford proper healthcare, and so don't get any. No education means no job which means no money, which means no house, which means starvation, sickness, and death. There's no healthcare to prevent this happening to us.

In my particular case, I have experienced the lack of free speech and police brutality. Having been beaten down and injured by police simply for expressing my opinions, I don't see this as a benefit. The only place I can express my opinions and make them known to the people is on TV, and because I'm not rich, I don't have the money to get myself onto the TV.

Free elections are a sham. People are brainwashed into the bi-partisan electoral system, where both parties put into practice the same policies upon election. No matter who I vote for, the government does not change, and if I vote for a third party, I'm one of a few hundred people who were made to believe that a third party would have a chance of being elected.

I'm stuck in a world where I am raised to become a mindless automaton, also known as a "consumer."

This sort of life disgusts me, this society disgusts me, and I do NOT see how you could find it even remotely appealing or fair AT ALL. Unless you're happy being a drone.

elbolao23

12th April 2004, 20:06

once again i'mnot talking about that, i'm talking about how Fidel Castro and HIS comunist Cuba is killing all the Cubans mentally and phisically

perception

12th April 2004, 23:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:06 PM
once again i'mnot talking about that, i'm talking about how Fidel Castro and HIS comunist Cuba is killing all the Cubans mentally and phisically
so was I and you ignored both my posts homie.

Yazman

13th April 2004, 03:57

once again i'mnot talking about that, i'm talking about how Fidel Castro and HIS comunist Cuba is killing all the Cubans mentally and phisically

and I am talking about how the modern capitalist "first world" is killing the people of the world mentally and physically.

ComradeRed

13th April 2004, 04:10

I think this was done because Fidel didn't want Raul running the show, from what I understand Raul is far more leninistic than Fidel.

elbolao23

13th April 2004, 23:41

what you don't know is that Raul is "pato"

elbolao23

13th April 2004, 23:49

Sorry i ignored your post Perception and to say something about what you said that ...........(the general consensus was that he was a good man and leader, but he was getting too old and it's time for someone new).........i agree on one part and desagree on other, i desagree that most of the people think that fidel is a good man because the one's you talked to have famiky that worked for the goverment and get things nobody else gets. I agree that Fidel is getting REAL old and that the cubans need a new president elected freely not someone put by the so called Comandande en jefe Fidel Castro.................. (A lot of the Cubans you meet will ask you for a shirt or a pair of shoes or anything you can spare)......... that i agree becuase i had to do the same thing back when i was i Cuba asking the tourists for money and whatever they had and did not want.

Lacrimi de Chiciură

16th April 2004, 21:39

That Chile thing is sick

cebert

17th April 2004, 14:53

Freedom of the press and free elections.

From what I understand, the communist party of Cuba is afraid that foreign capital will influence the elections .

End the embargo then I'm sure the standard of living for the Cuban people will improve. I dont see how anyone can support the embargo and then say, they have concern for the welfare of the Cuban people.

elbolao23

19th April 2004, 01:02

Again, why are you mixing the embargo with the freedom of speech, cause if you are intelligent enough to writte this ignorant thing you must know that one does not influence the other, we'll know that the embargo is really messing up the ecoomy in Cuba but i'm talimng about FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS becuause if you go to Cuba all you'll hear in the news is Fidel Castro 24 hours, oh pardon me, the seven hours that television is transmited in Cuba.

DaCuBaN

19th April 2004, 09:00

if you go to Cuba all you'll hear in the news is Fidel Castro 24 hours, oh pardon me, the seven hours that television is transmited in Cuba

...and to be honest, they should just turn it off. Radio is a far more effective form of mass broadcast - cheaper too. Television is a pointless, mind rotting pass time.

Almost ironic really given what the cuban government chooses to fill it with :D

Freedom of the press and free elections

I'd quite like to see every journalist strung up to be honest. I'd give them fair warning of course :P ;)

As for elections? well it's a touchy subject. They of course should exist, but I'm yet to decide whether I believe a popularity contest is a good way to select our leaders.

Freedom of the press and free elections wouldn't do anything to Cuba but allow an unsavoury element a chance to take a hold in the country. Ending of the Trade embargo however, would do wonders.

crazy comie

19th April 2004, 09:35

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 01:02 AM
Again, why are you mixing the embargo with the freedom of speech, cause if you are intelligent enough to writte this ignorant thing you must know that one does not influence the other, we'll know that the embargo is really messing up the ecoomy in Cuba but i'm talimng about FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS becuause if you go to Cuba all you'll hear in the news is Fidel Castro 24 hours, oh pardon me, the seven hours that television is transmited in Cuba.
Well in the capitalist countrys you have to listen to right wing propaganda 24 7 as well as horrible soaps.

elbolao23

19th April 2004, 19:33

yes but you have the option of watching another channel while in cuba there is only two and when Fidel speaks they put him in both channels as if we didn't get enough of him\

elbolao23

19th April 2004, 19:35

..............and to be honest, they should just turn it off. Radio is a far more effective form of mass broadcast - cheaper too. Television is a pointless, mind rotting pass time...............

don't be ignorant television is one of the best form of entertaining but letsnot get in a fight about a TV

DaCuBaN

20th April 2004, 10:36

Don't get me wrong, the cathode ray tube is a wonderful device, but if nothing else television is outdated technology.

I was reading an article a while back about the frequency ranges on which wireless computer networking products transmit - 2.4Ghz iirc. Television is broadcast (again iirc) at around the 500-600Mhz mark and at this frequency the waves will bend around hills, buildings, practically anything. This would allow us to set up truly wireless networking within a 60 mile radius of the transmitter/receiver - and still receive every TV channel from all over the world, on demand, through your net connection. I'm not for shutting down the people doing the recording/editing (though some of them should be for the stuff they put out) - I want the signal switched off and used for something useful rather than the sending of wasteful data. If you want to have your mind pour out your ears and lie in a puddle on the floor, I wouldn't DREAM of stopping you.

don't be ignorant television is one of the best form of entertaining but letsnot get in a fight about a TV

and please, if you're going to insult me do it properly. One line answers just make me think you just enjoy insulting people, or are trying to get me to 'rise' to it.

crazy comie

20th April 2004, 14:55

lots of small countrys have two channles wich are run by the state and maybe one crapy commercial channel..

elbolao23

22nd April 2004, 00:22

but again you have the freedom to say or think whatever you want not what they tell you in school since you are 4 years old for gods sake.

Have you heard about the 75 cubans that for THNIKING different than Fidel and his dictator goverment went to prision for the simple fact of beliving in ideals different from Fidel's. How about the cubans who highjacked the boat to come to the Us, yes they committed a crime but did not harm nobady and that was no reason to kill 3 black young mans who where just trying to get out of the nightmare that everybody lives in cuba. Fidel just did this to set an example trough violence so that no one would do it again. And then he says that Violence is not the answer to win a war, that the mind is the most important one. How about the Politics prisioners that AGAIN for thinking different went to prision for 10 to 15 and even 20 years. I know that all of you dislike Bush and i do to but you wouldn't like that this forum would get canceld and you would go to prision for having another opinion about him and how he is leading the country, you wouldn't know that becuase you've always had freedom and had never been shotdown form expressing your opinions and feelings

crazy comie

22nd April 2004, 14:43

All second world countrys have problemswith pepole running away. You wonder why fidel arrestes these pepole it is probbably becuse he is scarred becuse there have been so many attempts by the cia to over through him. He is also getting more and more lean to prisoners.

elbolao23

22nd April 2004, 16:45

keep thinking that, now tell me something abou the prisioners and the young cubans killed

crazy comie

23rd April 2004, 15:14

amnesty international said that cubas human wrights are improving and they have efectivly stoped executions. in cuba however there are still fifty on death row.

cebert

24th April 2004, 21:14

The Embargo IS related to the suppressions going on over there. Cuba is in a state of cold war witht the United states, much like the former SU. The US government has been increasingly beligerent towards Cuba and Fidel, calling for "regime change". I suppose we can attribute much of these limits of freedom of speech to internal security ( ie , preventing counter revolution ) during these hostile times. By ending the embargo we can pretty much say the cold war is at an end. With that we will see some of these reforms you are asking for. I'm sure socialism itself calls for some limits to freedom of speech as well. Racist speech isn't allowed is it? or freedom to betray the workers? I'm not sure how Jerry Springer or Bugs bunny etc.. fit in with the program of socialism. I dont know, my Television broke about 7 years ago. I never replaced it and to be honest, I dont miss it.

I'm not sure about the details of these 3 black men and the armed hijacking. I think one of them had a criminal record. The death penalty did seem a little harsh though the charge of terrorrism is a serious crime anywhere.

Agent provocateur

24th April 2004, 23:40

elbolao23

25th April 2004, 15:36

.................in cuba however there are still fifty on death row...............yes, for the crime of thinking

Per Aspera Ad Astra

25th April 2004, 22:30

Eh... Elbolao, individualists such as you don't fit into a socialist system, that's a fact.
But people in latin america fight for socialism, and die for the cause as we speak, so why don't you show them some respect. Quit your whining, you escaped from the hell of equality to the freedom to opress people and should feel good now, right? By the way, should you not be posting in the "opposing ideologies" column?

elbolao23

26th April 2004, 19:30

you are damn right i escaped from hell and now i'm free . and no i'm not whining i'm explaining to people who hasn' lived in cuba and say that fidel is a god man and cuba is a good place to live, read the forum completely and then think before you write something that does not make any type of sense.

elbolao23

27th April 2004, 23:50

i found this post on the other forum right here on these web-site, it makes a good point and maybe this way you might understand what i mean, and the reality of cuba
(sorry don't know how to make the quote thingy)

..............And if you think the Cuban people enjoy thier communism as much as you do, sitting at home on your computers pondering how you think how the world should work, think again. Most just accept it as a system better than the Batista regime, the lesser of two evils...not exactly as good as it could be, but not as bad...hmmm.

And if you think we are brainwashed by capitalism, and thats why WE think its so great, then you my freind should travel to Cuba. You are bombarded by propaganda, images of Che Guevara plastered all over the god damn place. Most are completly ignorant of the outside world, and its advantages.

This is not an assumption, I have personal experiance yet again. A Cuban who worked for my father came to Canada on a business trip, you should have seen his face. He walked into a dollar store, and stayed there for about three hours, buying hundreds of dollars of merchandise to take back home. He thought, "oh, what a wonderful place where I can buy all of this wonderful stuff." do you want to know what he bought? toothbrushes, plastic toys, hairbrushes, pencils, pens, and other stuff we have PLENTy of and never appreciate.

Communism deprives these fine people of things they could otherwise have. While you may think that owning plastic shit from a dollar store is pretty lame, well, if you never experiance, OR if you don't even have the CHOICE to get such things, they are VERY special. I think its a pity. Communism brought Cuba from the brutal dictatorship, and freed the people. But that is only one step...they can't stop at this stage. Marx would agree with me, if you don't think so, ask me, I DARE YOU .....................(by Dan Canadian)

i totally agree, tell me if you don't?

DaCuBaN

28th April 2004, 00:24

Not really... what was brought into cuba was a lot better than what the yanquis had put in place - but the yanquis didn't like this and so decided to make it their goal to discredit and destroy the new regime. I'm amazed it even lasted this long considering what they have to put up with on an international level.

I'll accept this argument once the USA has lifted the trade embargo - as this is essentially like rigging the game.

elbolao23

28th April 2004, 00:39

[/QUOTE]Not really... what was brought into cuba was a lot better than what the yanquis had put in place - but the yanquis didn't like this and so decided to make it their goal to discredit and destroy the new regime. I'm amazed it even lasted this long considering what they have to put up with on an international level.

I'll accept this argument once the USA has lifted the trade embargo - as this is essentially like rigging the game.[QUOTE]

this does not make any type of sense, explain yourself , anyways cuba is gonna be the same shitty plave to live after the embargo is lifted with Fidel Ruling the country, i know you shouldn't do this but pray everyday for his death because of all the bad things he has done especially to my own family, my uncle went to prision for 10 years for forming opposition groups which educated the cubans about the reality and the things Fidel was doing to cuba without any type of violence what so ever and look what he got.

DaCuBaN

28th April 2004, 00:52

cuba is gonna be the same shitty plave to live after the embargo is lifted with Fidel Ruling the country, i know you shouldn't do this but pray everyday for his death because of all the bad things he has done especially to my own family, my uncle went to prision for 10 years for forming opposition groups which educated the cubans about the reality and the things Fidel was doing to cuba without any type of violence what so ever and look what he got.

I'm very sorry to hear you had such a bad experience in Cuba. The country you've moved into has a almost as bad a record though - don't forget the communist witch-hunts of the McCarthy era, and of course people like Sherman Austin who was imprisoned because he posted a link that the govt. didn't like. It doesn't get much more repressive than that.

Anyway, to answer your question I was meaning that the Castro regime is better than the Batista regime, especially during the years of soviet support. Since the missile crisis the US embargo on Cuba has meant we cannot judge what things are really like even from within simply because the entire country is being economically opressed.

Commie Girl

28th April 2004, 01:52

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 05:50 PM

Communism deprives these fine people of things they could otherwise have. While you may think that owning plastic shit from a dollar store is pretty lame, well, if you never experiance, OR if you don't even have the CHOICE to get such things, they are VERY special. I think its a pity. Communism brought Cuba from the brutal dictatorship, and freed the people. But that is only one step...they can't stop at this stage. Marx would agree with me, if you don't think so, ask me, I DARE YOU .....................(by Dan Canadian)

i totally agree, tell me if you don't?
:angry: Ummmm...Communism DOES NOT deprive people of things, the U$ EMBARGO does......get it??????????

crazy comie

28th April 2004, 10:16

The reason cuba doesn't have many connsumer goods is becuse of the us embargo and for that reason they can't get lots of goods becuse there made by us companys and cuba has to concentrate on food before consumer goods.

elbolao23

28th April 2004, 23:54

[don't forget the communist witch-hunts of the McCarthy era, and of course people like Sherman Austin who was imprisoned because he posted a link that the govt. didn't like. It doesn't get much more repressive than that.][/QUOTE]

you call that repressive, go to cuba and don't post anything, don't say anything , just think about it and you'll go to prision and after that you are not gonna have a live because you are gonna be watched everytime by chivatos (snitch) of the CDR or revolution defense comitee which is just what i said a bunch of chivatos that do nothing but to talk shit and make you do voluntary work and paint your house everytime an important person comes to the neighborhood, after that everything goes back to the same ordinary life. maybe that the reason why so many peolple that has visited cuba and see that they are living good is all a lie

DaCuBaN

29th April 2004, 00:00

For a country that prides itself on it's freedoms, I consider that INCREDIBLY repressive.

a bunch of chivatos that do nothing but to talk shit and make you do voluntary work and paint your house everytime an important person comes to the neighborhood

if you painted your house more often they wouldn't ask! :rolleyes: :D just kidding :P

Noone ever said Cuba or Castro were perfect, let alone good. My only point is you cannot judge communism because the trade embargo from the US makes it an uneven playing field, and that aside the country isn't truly a communist state anyway and hence cannot be used as a judge of communism.

elbolao23

30th April 2004, 19:15

i'm not judging comunism because it really is a good theory that everyone is the same and equal to the eyes of the law, i'm critizincing Fidel because that is not what happens in cuba.

elbolao23

30th April 2004, 19:16

plus cuba is not a cumunist country after all, cuba is more of a socialist country where everything is controlles by the goverment not the people

bunk

30th April 2004, 20:29

no-one iv'e seen on this board claims it to be anything more than socialist country

Heesh

1st May 2004, 01:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 02:15 PM
i'm not judging comunism because it really is a good theory that everyone is the same and equal to the eyes of the law, i'm critizincing Fidel because that is not what happens in cuba.
Didn't you post earlier in the thread that communism has been proven not to work?

elbolao23

1st May 2004, 14:03

it has, you know why, because there is a thingt in a human being called greed and everybody has it, in a communist country everybody wants to get nice things and they work hard to get it but when they see they can't because if they do they'll get it taken away since you are no more equal to evrybody else there comes the value of vagueness becuase when you can't get anybetter that you already are whats the point of working , then the economy drops, it's all a chain reaction. its like you are a 12th grade studen't and i tell you you are never gonna pass the grade never ever, whats the point of keep going to school,

yes the embargo has a little to do with the economy in cuba but cuba buys million and millions of grains and chiken every year, does the cuban people see the difference with all those grains and chiken arraving in cuba's ports, of course not, thats for the tourists which in cuba are more important than the cuban citizens

Commie Girl

1st May 2004, 18:24

Tourists add money to your economy....The embargo is a travesty against the Cuban people and instead of berating the Leader, people around the world need to let their governments know we are in solidarity with the people of Cuba against the Imperialist ambitions of the U$...

elbolao....Why would you move to a country that is responsible for the repression of other people's? Why oh why?

Heesh

1st May 2004, 19:47

elbalao... Cuba needs tourism to survive

elbolao23

2nd May 2004, 01:20

but does not need to abuse their citizens

Yazman

2nd May 2004, 02:57

Countries like the US cause the abuse of their citizens more than the Cuban government ever has.

elbolao23

2nd May 2004, 03:33

why don't you stop defending cuba and giving excuses why everything happens, cuba is not the place to live and we all know that, for many different reasons including Fidel Castro being in power and prosecuting people for thinking differently

socialistfuture

2nd May 2004, 06:12

I have met a couple of people from Cuba and a couple who have visited.
One of the guys from Cuba I met was Juan Pozo from the Cuban Institute for friendship with the peoples, He was doing a Speech at a public meeting here (in New Zealand) titled Washington Vs Cuba - A Cuban Response to U.S. Threats. He gave a brief history of Cuba, and spoke about many things including Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. There was a time after his speech for questions.

The meeting was sponsored by the NZ Cuban Friendship society. There were some socialists their (myself included) from different groups. So that was an experience I had with a group of people who were at the very least intrested in Cuba and at the most either Cuban or friends of Cuba.

At the meeting I met two New Zealand ladies who had travelled to Cuba and enjoyed their stay. I talked to Juan Pozo afterwards and he was very proud of Cuba and its people and confident about its future (after Castro). He believed their next leaders were there. I talked to another man there who was from Cuba but now lived in New Zealand, he was fond of his homeland.

I am a part of Socialist Worker and they say Cuba is State Capitalist and do not believe it is a socialist republic, stating that goverment is not run by workers.

Personally I stand somewhere inbetween. I think the Cuban revolution (the removal of Spanish imperialism and then Batista) was good, and like much about Castro and understand the difficulties they face being right below the Imperialist Empire and having the trade embargo. But I also know that Freedom of speech, and democracy are important.

I am also a member of Amnesty International. I Think America has no right to do what it does in Guantanamo Bay. It is not simpy a Question of Fidel vs Bush, Cuba has a right to exist free from Yankee interference, but who ever rules Cuba should be the representitive of the people and they ultimately have the right to determine their own lives. Their is democracy in some ways in Cuba, Their are peoples assembelies and citizens militia and councils and unions. People are elected into many of those positions.

I think the Government of Cuba can only succefully work when the Sanctions are lifted and the country is not threatened from America (the majority of UN memebers voted to lift the sanctions - 3 opposed the resoulution... one being suprise suprise USA). There is a death penalty in Cuba, no different from America, China or anywhere else that execute ''criminals''. Personally I do not support the death penalty, but it is no reason that Cuba alone should be demonized for it. Many of those imprisioned in Cuba have not just opposed the government but commited acts of violence against the country or the Government. America has funded many terrorists from Miami. Fidel does not simply chose people he dislikes and kill them.

Cuba is not filled with corporate ads and capitalist junk, yes there is tourists, tourists shops, and so on. Many people do not have much, Cuba can only extend socialism when other countries become socialist .

There are many co-ops, organic farms/orchids and much creative innovations to get around the lack of imports (because of the sanctions). If Capitalism were to happen fully in Cuba foreign multi-nationals would come in and buy up much of it. Cubas way of life would be destroyed.
Cuba is a radiacally different country to the western capitalist ones much of the world is used to. It is not perfect, but what it lacks in material goods it makes up for in creativity and spirit. I hope to visit Cuba in the near future.

The Cuban Revolution is not over, the next phase is in the hands of the people of Cuba.