the left movement/ tactics, progress etc

[socialistfuture]

I thought it would be a good idea for people to say what they are doing as socialists to bring about change and to discuss what needs to be done and different ways about doing it.

The war against terrorism is getting very scary for human rights not just abroud but at home. Free speech isnt so free when you get locked up for it.

We got a lot to do, and so many people from the past to be inspired by.
Che, Bob Marley, Ghandi, Malcom X, Martin luthor King, Mark etc

And music like Rage against the machine, the Manic street preachers, Asian dub foundation, Scepultura, Soulfly, Ani Difranco and so on.

And the Revoutions in Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam....
So much has happened. There have been many mistakes. We must stand stong and learn from those mistakes. We must protect mother earth and our brothers. Humanity must not be blind -

So What are people doing? and what needs to be done? ( of course a social transformantion, end to war and suistainable planet ) but the steps we need to take... what are they? .........

Viva la revolucion!!!!

[crazy comie]

THe LEFT in Europe need to stop preaching to the already converted and start preaching to the unconverted it should also stop being so stupid in making as abut things that will just discourge pepole from joining.

[Dune Dx]

Lets stir up a coup in london take to the streets woo yeah

[Rasta Sapian]

the resistance needs both socialist intellectuals and anarchists to stand up either in demonstrations or in acts of anti-authouitarianism ie. sparking awareness of corperate and political buerocracy :o

Regardless if you are a rebel or a political leader, you can make a difference in educating the masses!
The revolution could then naturally occur, and we could make the modern world a utopia for everybody.

peace yall

[Kez]

"So What are people doing? and what needs to be done? ( of course a social transformantion, end to war and suistainable planet ) but the steps we need to take... what are they? ........."

I think the main thing we should be doing is educating ourselves.

Educate so we know what is happening, what is progressive, what is reactionary, what will work, what will fail...
After this we join an organisation closest to our beliefs, and ideas on methodology.

Using the organisation, you build up, and social transformation.
The main thing is to educate yourself, so that you and your organisation dont fall into pitfalls.

[Yazman]

Comrade Kez, it is in my belief that we need to UNITE the left, rather than further seperate it into different types of leftists (trots, stalinists, maoists, etc.).

[Kez]

Comrade Yazman,

at which point did i say we should seperate?
I said we should educate oursleves so that we dont waste our time with groups which will fail
If anything, this will give support to the group which the majority of people accept has the best ideas, making it more effective in the struggle

[cormacobear]

Besides just shareing my veiws with everyone I know, I'm a member of a left wing party, for wich I'll be filling envelopes next week. I've been part of many letter writing campaigns to government expressing left wing sentiments. And go to several protests each year.

I wish I could think of more ways to help but I'm not too bright :huh:

[socialistfuture]

cormacobear - you are smart enough to realise what is wrong with the world and brave enough to do something about it.

[Dawood]

Make the production harder, stop working as soon as the boss isn't looking, sabotage, strike och encourage others to do the same. Cut the tires of the trucks and your local capitalist will lose A LOT of money if he can't remedy it quickly.

Demonstrations are a bit old school, but sure, that can be very progressive too.

Steal. Shoplifting is both fun and potentially revolutionary. Steal your lunch and give the money you would have spent on your own food to someone who needs it more.

Spread your hate of the upper classes to all you meet.

Join the local Glasgow Celtic anclub and beat up Glasgow Rangers-supporters wherever you find them.

Join your local antifascist organisation and declare your home city an nazi free zone.

Write a communist newspaper that you sprea around. Leech of your school/workplace copymachine and hand it out to people in the street.

Form propaganda-organisations that work with spreading propaganda about the workers revolution.

[God of Imperia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 03:05 PM
Make the production harder, stop working as soon as the boss isn't looking, sabotage, strike och encourage others to do the same. Cut the tires of the trucks and your local capitalist will lose A LOT of money if he can't remedy it quickly.
Won't this just lead to more laid off workers? It might help to raise the hate against companies, but getting other people fired and without money isn't something I would encourage. But I like all you're other idea's ...

[Dawood]

Originally posted by God of Imperia+Apr 4 2004, 02:10 PM--> (God of Imperia @ Apr 4 2004, 02:10 PM)
[email protected] 4 2004, 03:05 PM
Make the production harder, stop working as soon as the boss isn't looking, sabotage, strike och encourage others to do the same. Cut the tires of the trucks and your local capitalist will lose A LOT of money if he can't remedy it quickly.
Won't this just lead to more laid off workers? It might help to raise the hate against companies, but getting other people fired and without money isn't something I would encourage. But I like all you're other idea's ... [/b]
The companies can only lay of workers when the working class is weak. If the workers occupy the factory and threaten to tear it to pieces if they don't get what they demand... well, then there isn't much the capitalist can do... :lol:

Always remember, the proletariat is NOT a weak victim, it is the strongest class in history. The proletariat could throw down capitalism on a whim. It is ONLY our obedience that keep the corrupt upper class elite in power.

[God of Imperia]

Do you really believe that a 100 people who lost their job will make the difference? Or 10? Or 1? Don't forget that people still need money these days and without a job, what do they have to do? If the revolution comes things will change, but when will that be? Not now. You need to infiltrate the unions and inform the workers.

[bunk]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 30 2004, 03:17 PM
Lets stir up a coup in london take to the streets woo yeah
:D
posters, leaflets, propaganda and of course organize demos.

[VukBZ2005]

Originally posted by crossfire+Apr 4 2004, 01:47 PM--> (crossfire @ Apr 4 2004, 01:47 PM)
Dune [email protected] 30 2004, 03:17 PM
Lets stir up a coup in london take to the streets woo yeah
:D [/b]
I would rather stir up a coup in Washington DC... :)

[Dawood]

Originally posted by God of [email protected] 4 2004, 02:41 PM
Do you really believe that a 100 people who lost their job will make the difference? Or 10? Or 1? Don't forget that people still need money these days and without a job, what do they have to do? If the revolution comes things will change, but when will that be? Not now. You need to infiltrate the unions and inform the workers.
No, but if this repeats over and over again all over the world the das kapital will not be able to survive. It is very vulernable, much more so that what you would think.

[Nas]

Strikes will panic the Capitalists because they dont have control over the workers and even more they are loosing money

and there is one important thing - know your enemy - know who you are fighting against - the capitalists are very smart , powerful, they are the most likely to win, but nobody is unbeatable, they will some day fall

we should also learn from history-there is always something you need to learn

[TC]

Originally posted by LinuxMan86+Apr 4 2004, 01:50 PM--> (LinuxMan86 @ Apr 4 2004, 01:50 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:47 PM

Dune [email protected] 30 2004, 03:17 PM
Lets stir up a coup in london take to the streets woo yeah
:D
I would rather stir up a coup in Washington DC... :) [/b]
you should come to May 1 in DC.

[Salvador Allende]

There will always be conflict in the left side, so we should just put aside our differences to defeat the right. We need to simply preach to each nation that hasn't seen the light and believe that our view will eventually be seen by the masses. Once the masses side with us, we cannot lose and Marxism shall spread to the cities of Europe, the countries of Africa, the nations of the America's and across the globe! That is what is to be done!

[Reuben]

okay we need to sstart by looking at how progress is made, in other words how the status quo - capitalism - is effectively and progressively challenged.

revolutions happen beause of a combination of ideas and material (ie socio-economic) circumstances (and a social force arising from those circumstances). At the center of aany progress made will be:

a set of ideas - ie socialism - which explains the nature of capitalism, the role and position of the working classm, and which puts forward a better way of doing things.

A social force - ie the working class - which has an interest in carrying out socialism, and which is capable of doing so,and ais caable of doing s insofar as it is forced to work co-operatively and in solidarity.

The point is that neither of these elements are in themselves capable of making progress. We can develope the most brilliant set of ideas but if they are not spread to or aimed at the mass of wokring people - the social force capble of bringing those ideas into practice they will be essentially irrelevant similarly.

Similarly, it is natural that workers, on account of their socio-economic circumstances will form unions, carry ot strikes tc, yet any 'progress' they make in the form of better pay, better working conditions etc will be in danger - pehaps eventualy lost - unless wholesale changes are made through the destruction of the capitalist system of the bourgoir state. While pay rises may be given when capitalists can afford to do so and when workers power is relatively strong such gains will be taken away when a recession hits in, when workers are desperate to preserve their jobs, and nion power wanes. It is therefore necessary for socialist to involve themselves in such struggles but at the same time put forward the ideas of Marxism, explain that true permanent, progress and emancipation cannot come about without the siezure of political power by the working class.

It is as i have said through this , as the wonderful deas of socialsim, are combined with the mass of workers and - in particular - their legitimate aspiration for a better standard of lliving which only socialism can truly guarantee, that is when that capitalists are sent on the run.

[crazy comie]

Yes we should definetly conncentrate on educating pepole and we have alot of it to do becuse if we act to quickly we could lose much support.

[SittingBull47]

i'm trying to educate my area about the atrocities and squallid conditions on many of our Native American Indian Reservations across the country. I've been at it for months, and the only support i got was from my social issues teacher and 2 friends. I'm going to try to get into the town paper though and write an article.

[Nas]

i also agree with him , we should educate the masses - including the young people - mainly focus them on anti-capitalism

make them ask themselves "damn, i wish this could change"


and we will also need a leader !!

[crazy comie]

We should foucous more on a will to change than anti capitalism as that can incouredge uneaccesary violence.

[socialistfuture]

SittingBull47 have you visited many reserves? and talked to Native American Indians about Socialism? I think it is great you want to make people aware of the conditions that some Indians now live in.

We must approach the enemy on many fronts. Educate ourselves and the masses.
To the people who are scared of words like communism and anti-capitalist it is easy to talk about the inhumanity of the Iraq war and George Bush and the problems in our society like Poverty and Pollution.

I think We can focus on many things and eventually all the links will be made and over time we will have a new society.

[peaccenicked]

I think we have a lot to learn from Lenin. He keeps his 'eyes on the prize' as Martin Luther King would say. Where to Begin? (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/may/04.htm)

[redstar2000]

Probably a lot of people at Che-Lives find themselves in a position of "starting from zero". If you're still in high school, perhaps the best you can do is "speak up in class"...exposing capitalist lies and offering an alternative Marxist explanation for what's going on. If a few people express further interest, then you've got the beginnings of a group...which could evolve to be very active. But, to be honest, you may find yourself to be "a voice crying in the wilderness".

This is a very reactionary period in which we live...though that may change quite a bit in only a few years.

For lefties in their 20s and older, the current practical opportunities are almost as limited. The common practice is to "pick an issue" and "work on it"...paying little or no attention to the capitalist system as a system.

Others will join one of the tiny Leninist sects ("cargo cults" as one lefty calls them) which do criticize the capitalist system as a whole...but which also require you to submit to some dogma (Trotskyist, Maoist, etc.). Their criticisms of capitalism are always "out of date" since, for them, time stopped with the death of their "great leader".

What we really need, of course, is a new revolutionary communist movement (not party!) -- something like the old Students for a Democratic Society but on a much larger scale and with a working class membership.

But how this can be brought about is beyond my knowledge; perhaps it will spontaneously emerge as a consequence of events yet to take place.

I am in sympathy with the advice to "educate ourselves" -- the more we know and understand about the failures of the left in the last century, the less likely we will be to repeat those errors.

For example, when someone says "we need a leader", all of us should respond appropriately: bullshit! The 20th century left had plenty of "leaders" and it didn't do them or us one damn bit of good!

That's a mistake that we don't need to repeat.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[peaccenicked]

A sound peice of leadership. :lol:

[socialistfuture]

yes we do not need one leader... the possibility of a new Stalin type figure is too great.
I am anti authoritarian communism - meaning I support grassroots movements - not top down - which i think was the problem with Lenin. Although I admire him for commiting his life to revolution. I am reading a book about him at the moment - it was very intresting times.
The Zapatistas are a good example of a grassroots movement - an inspiration to socialism.
I think we Need A Che Guevara for.. the closest I can think of is Sub Commander Marcos. We need new Figures who are internationally known.. not just in obscure marxist circles.
A mass party would also be good. The west is way behind south america... I think scotland could be one of the first western european countries to become socialist.
we must make links between the different groups around the world and help each other.

revolution time ....

[crazy comie]

What we really have to do is stop the left from bickering amongst the sets.

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

We need to unite, educate and most importantly ACT on our beliefs. We need to show people that we mean what we say- we need to be loyal and dedicated to the cause. The revolution will never end it will only grow!!!

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE

[DaCuBaN]

and we will also need a leader !!

Red's got it on the money (pun not intended) again - the last thing we need is a another leader.

I've got high hopes for Spain now. They've got what is deemed a socialist government at the helm now, and of course the country is infamous for the Anarchist uprising and then subsequent loss of parliament through their ideals. There's a long way to go, but if any European nation is going to get there first I see it to be Spain.

Only problem with that is it would put a socialist government at odds with a capitalist one (gibraltar) and can you guess which side the yanquis will be on?

[crazy comie]

gibralter is a teritory of the uk becuse the pepole wan,t it to be.
I think we do need a leader but not rs.

[DaCuBaN]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 20 2004, 02:57 PM
gibralter is a teritory of the uk becuse the pepole wan,t it to be.
I&#39;ve not put my point across well, have I? <_<

Spain have wanted gibraltar back for years was all I was intimating, and that the UK and hence US would see it as a threat. (shock horror)

[Nas]

a leader could be everyone or it could a farmer or could be a group

[Nick Yves]

I&#39;m still in high school, so I&#39;m thinking of more practical ways to go about it. I don&#39;t run down my halls screaming &#39;&#39;revolution&#39;&#39;. I don&#39;t randomly start a conversation with someone I don&#39;t know telling them how great Communism is (because we have a long way to get there.)

We need all countries to be more liberal. Then soft socialism. Then &#39;real&#39; socialism. Communism would then naturally come about.

I&#39;m focusing my abilities on Liberalism. Something that I can actually see becoming an international trend within the next couple of decades.

How, you ask? Write. Educate yourself. Submit articles to a publication. Work for a source of media, and get your articles (thus, opinions) published in it. Also, simply spreading little ideas right now is a good thing. In my school, if someone says something rather discriminatory, I tell them to stop. As a high school student I can only do so much.

Like I said though, educate yourself and then spread your ideals on a very large medium. I plan on getting a degree in journalism and possibly political science, and hopefully someday become a &#39;&#39;voice&#39;&#39; of sorts. Start small, work your way up. Persuade.

[crazy comie]

sorry i misentrepreted your post dacuban

[Rasta Sapian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:54 AM
I&#39;m still in high school, so I&#39;m thinking of more practical ways to go about it. I don&#39;t run down my halls screaming &#39;&#39;revolution&#39;&#39;. I don&#39;t randomly start a conversation with someone I don&#39;t know telling them how great Communism is (because we have a long way to get there.)

We need all countries to be more liberal. Then soft socialism. Then &#39;real&#39; socialism. Communism would then naturally come about.

I&#39;m focusing my abilities on Liberalism. Something that I can actually see becoming an international trend within the next couple of decades.

How, you ask? Write. Educate yourself. Submit articles to a publication. Work for a source of media, and get your articles (thus, opinions) published in it. Also, simply spreading little ideas right now is a good thing. In my school, if someone says something rather discriminatory, I tell them to stop. As a high school student I can only do so much.

Like I said though, educate yourself and then spread your ideals on a very large medium. I plan on getting a degree in journalism and possibly political science, and hopefully someday become a &#39;&#39;voice&#39;&#39; of sorts. Start small, work your way up. Persuade.
yes progression to the left is a gooooooooooooooooooooooooood s o l u t i o n, but it just takes a while, and yes the momentum would eventually arise true socialism through liberalizaion and moderation, however if we had a new manifesto written it could be spead to all the masses worldwide quite easily, especially with the today&#39;s technology and high literary rates, higher than a century ago&#33; This would unite everybody&#33; expanding the left&#33; The inspiration would rapidly motivate the masses to new revolution&#33;

The new world utopia will take an explotion&#33; :D ie.instant evolution

peace yall

[crazy comie]

The problem is no one could agree on a manifesto.

[bunk]

you can come to a comprimise tho

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 04:25 PM
you can come to a comprimise tho
not one that anhy one would agree on.

[bunk]

but most people can and no one will agree on everything you just have to make sure it&#39;s good and then every commie back it or else it wil be useless

[acg4_9]

first of all we&#39;ve got to believe in the cause and think for once that the results won&#39;t be taken easily.
second thing we must admit that we lost the battle and then study why, to win the war.
third thing knowledge knowledge and knowledge. ignorance is our biggest enemy.
forth thing is to build ourself osama ibn laden is an extremist that is faught by millions but still standing because he made a career and made connections so if he could do it we can.
the fifth thing is not to give up.
sixth and seventh........ there are a lot of ways but the most important thing is to start not just talk.

to the high school students you must study and after studying -if you are in a democratic country- try spreading your ideas cause the media now is one of our greatest enemies show your colleagues that somebody cares. if your not in a free country try the underground work but be careful cause you don&#39;t want to end your career before starting.

viva la resistance,
viva iraq, viva palestine.

[Raisa]

We need to araise workers dignity. The left doing things is fine. but left or not the crap happens to the PEOPLE. and that is who we live for. it is so sad to see us just putting up with it. Its a lack of dignity i think on the workers behalf. we need to change that. and one simpe thing every one can do every day is make people feel aprieciated in their jobs.

[crazy comie]

It is fine to talk about this but wghat we really need is a grass roots party wich unites the divissions with in the left so we can do all these things.

[DEPAVER]

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."-Buckminster Fuller


I wouldn&#39;t sit around thinking about coups, "isms," manifestos and revolutions where "the walls start crumbling downward." Start thinking in terms of you, right now and specifics.

This includes all the parlor intellectual revolutionaries that like to sit around on college campuses and coffee shops and talk and write about all sorts of wonderful things that never seem to materialize. Now, don&#39;t get me wrong. I think it&#39;s good to ask ourselves how do we get from here to there, from our present coercive, capitalist, hierarchical society to a society that maximizes freedom, democracy, free association and mutual aid, and how do we implement the change we wish to see in the world, but at some point, there has to be actual action.

There are basically two ways: either we turn our backs on the existing society and build our own in our preferred image; or we overthrow the existing society and replace it with our own. When I say "overthrow," I don&#39;t mean my force. Storming the barricades and the use of violence to counter the violence of the state has a host of negative effects, not the least of which is a quick and certain death for the revolutionary.

Our long-term strategy is to build our ideal society from the ground up, from the local to the regional, dispersing power among ourselves so there is no avenue for the concentration of power, never confronting the state face-to-face, never poking it with a stick. As our community of communities grows, we draw off power from the state, at the same time that the inherent contradictions of capitalism, the unsustainable nature of industrial capitalist growth and the growing irrelevancy of the corporate dominated central government weakens the state from within. The coming crisis of energy production will also place a great economic strain on the state which will be compensated for by strengthening the economic system of the growing anarchism.

So, as I&#39;ve stated many times before, we become the change the we wish to see in the world, and we build our own free society in parallel to the existing society. Eventually, the existing society will crumble, thanks to the End of the Age of Oil, environmental breakdown and general societal collapse.

This is a difficult concept because the current meme tells us we must "fight" to "oppose" that which we seek to change. We have to "work" to elect those politicians who promise to support our beliefs. We must support our military and police who are defending our rights. We do so much fighting and supporting and defending and working, we never have a chance to do any changing. So nothing changes.

What are the characteristics of our society that we seek to change?

Competitiveness. Be cooperative. Stop working in a competitive job. Do work that nurtures cooperation.

Hierarchy: Find meaningful work in a cooperative, community workplace. If you can&#39;t find it, create it. Support local self-reliance, local self-government, local autonomy. Support unions and cooperatives. Engage in consensus decision making.

Greed: Simplify. Discover the joy and freedom of making less money. Quit your current job and find meaningful work.

Individualism: Join your local neighborhood association, or go door to door and start one. Engage in conversation with your neighbors. Work to find
mutual solutions to local problems.

Consumerism: Learn the joy and freedom of owning less. Buy at thrift stores, used book stores, garage sales. Cherish what works well.

Most importantly: Don&#39;t worry, be the change. Don&#39;t worry that everyone else in your neighborhood, community, state, nation is not changing. Be the change. Let your joy in life shine through. Others will be attracted to your ight. Share your experience with those who ask. Watch the change spread.

In this way we don&#39;t waste our energy opposing the existing system. We pour our energy into the change as we turn our backs on the system that drains so much energy from us. We release that energy into the creative process of change. We build the new as the old withers and dies.