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Urban Rubble
30th March 2004, 00:39
I have never owned a record label, nor directed a successful merchandise company, so I don't pretend to be an expert on marketing. I have evolved through my craft as a songwriter, but others have labeled it and marketed it and made it neat for consumption.
Although I have made money from Punk, it is a modest amount when one considers the bounty that has been bestowed on the companies that promote Punk as some sort of a product to be ingested. It has always been my way to de-value the fashionable, light-hearted, impulsive traits that people associate with Punk, because Punk is more than that, so much more that those elements become trivial in the light of human experience that all punkers share.

Since it has been a part of me for over half of my life, I think the time has come to attempt a definition, and in the process defend, this persistent social phenomenon known as Punk. It is astounding that something with so much emotional and trans- cultural depth has gone without definition for so long, for the roots of Punk run deeper, and go back in history farther than imagined.

Even in the last two decades, it is difficult to find any analysis of the influential effect that Punk Rock had on Pop Music and youth culture. And rarer still are essays detailing the emotional and intellectual undercurrents that drive the more overt fashion statements that most people attribute to Punk. These are some of the wants that compelled me to write this. If my attempt offends the purists, collapses the secrecy of a closed society, promotes confidence in skeptical inquiry, provokes deeper thought, and decodes irony, then I have done my job and those who feel slighted might recognize the triviality of their position. For I have nothing to promote but my observations on a sub-culture that has grown to global proportions, and through visiting much of it, I have found threads of common thought everywhere.

Common thought processes are what determine the ideology that binds people together into a community. There is desire among Punks to be a community, but there needs to be some shape imparted on the foundations of the punk ideology, and where it comes from. The current Punk stereotype is scarred by mass-marketing and an unfortunate emphasis on style over substance.

But these ills don't destroy the Punk sentiment, they merely confound the education of the new generations of people who know they are punk, but don't know what it means. It is a long road to understand what it means. This essay is part of the process.

PUNKS ARE NOT BEASTS Punk is a reflection of what it means to be human. What separates us from other animals? Our ability to recognize ourselves and express our own genetic uniqueness. Ironically, the commonly held view, among the marketeers and publicity engines, stresses the "animalistic", "primitive" nature of punks and their music.

They assume that violence is a key ingredient in punk music, and this assumption is easily perpetuated because it is easy to market violence and news items about violence always get column space. This focus on violence misses a key element of what Punk is all about:

PUNK IS: the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.

Violence is neither common in, nor unique to punk. When it does manifest itself it is due to things unrelated to the punk ideal. Consider for example the common story of a fight at a high school between a punk and a jock football player. The football player and his cohort do not accept or value the punk as a real person. Rather, they use him as a vitriol receptacle, daily taunting, provoking, and embarrassing him, which of course is no more than a reflection of their own insecurities. One day, the punk has had enough and he clobbers the football captain in the hallway. The teachers of course expell the punk and cite his poor hairstyle and shabby clothing as evidence that he is a violent, uncontrollable no-good. The community newspaper reads "Hallway Beating Re-affirms that Violence is a Way of Life Among Punk Rockers".

Spontaneous anger at not being accepted as a real person is not unique to punkers. This reaction is due to being human, and anybody would react in anger regardless of their sub- cultural, or social affiliation if they felt de- valued and useless. Sadly, there are plenty of examples of violence among punks. There are glaring examples of misguided people who call themselves punks too. But anger and violence are not punk traits, in fact, they have no place in the punk ideal. Anger and violence are not the glue that holds the punk community together.

IN UNIQUENESS IS THE PRESERVATION OF MANKIND Nature bestowed on us the genetic backbone of what punk is all about. There are roughly 80,000 genes in the human genome, and there are roughly 6 billion people carrying that genetic compliment. The chances of two people carrying the same genome are so small as to be almost beyond comprehension (the odds are essentially ?80,000 times the number of possible people you can meet and mate with in a lifetime! A practical impossibility)

The genes we carry play a major role in determining our behavior and outlook on life. That is why we have the gift of uniqueness, because no one else has the same set of genes controlling their view of the world. Of course cultural factors play the other major role, and these can have a more homogenizing effect on behavior and world-view.

For example, an entire working-class town might have 15,000 residents who are raised with the same ideals, work at the same factories, go to the same schools, shop at the same stores, and like the same sports teams. As their children develop, there is a constant interaction of opposite forces between the social imprinting their culture imparts and the genetic expression of uniqueness.

Those who lose touch with their nature become society's robots, whereas those who denounce their social development become vagrant animals. Punk stands for a desire to walk the line in between these two extremes with masterful precision. Punks want to express their own unique nature, while at the same time want to embrace the communal aspects of their cookie-cutter upbringing. The social connection they have is based on a desire to understand each other's unique view of the world. Punk "scenes" are social places where those views are accepted, sometimes adopted, sometimes discarded, but always tolerated and respected.

PUNK IS: a movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated through willful ignorance of human nature.

Because it depends on tolerance and shuns denial, Punk is open to all humans. There is an elegant parallel between Punk's dependence on unique views and behaviors and our own natural genetic predisposition toward uniqueness.

THE BATTLE OF FEAR AND RATIONALITY

The compulsion to conform is a powerful side-effect of civilized life. We are all taught to respect the views of our elders, and later when we realize that they are just dogmatic opinions, we are taught not to make a commotion by asking difficult questions. Many just go along with the prevailing notions and never express their own views, which is analogous to a premature death of the individual. Our species is unique in the ability to recognize and express the self, and not exercising this biological function goes against the natural selection gradient that created it in the first place. This complacency combats a fear of failure. It is easy to assume that if everyone else is doing something, then there is no way to fail if you just go along with it. Cattle and flocks of geese can probably recognize this advantage. But the entire human race could fail because of this mentality. Thinking and acting in a direction against the current of popular opinion is critical to human advancement, and a potent manifestation of Punk. If an issue or phenomenon is found to be true only because other people say it is so, then it is a Punk's job to look for a better solution, or at least find an independent variable that confirms the held view (sometimes the popular view is just a reflection of human nature, Punks don't live in denial of this).

This ability to go against the grain was a major part of the greatest advances in human thinking throughout history. The entire Enlightenment period was characterized by ideas that shunned the dogma of the time, only to reveal truths in nature and human existence that all people can observe, and that are still with us today.

Galileo fought the church, the church won the battle, by putting him in jail for life, but ultimately lost the war; few people today believe that the sun orbits around the earth, and thus God didn't create the earth as the center of the universe. Francis Bacon insisted that human destiny is equal to understanding. If we deny this fundamental principle of what it means to be human, he reasoned, then we descend into the depths of mere barbarism.

Charles Darwin, wrote after the heyday of the Enlightenment, he nonetheless was directly influenced by its tradition, was trained as a theologian and yet still was driven to understand the underlying order that connected biological species he observed in his travels. His views threw into question many of the Bible's tenets, yet his reasoning was sound, and through a process of self-improvement (the struggle in his own mind to understand) he improved mankind by establishing a new benchmark of human knowledge.

The dogma of the church was further marginalized. The fear of repercussion from the church was overshadowed by the wave of understanding that his views created in people, and by the truth to his observations.

The modern-day Punk thought process, driven by this desire to understand, is a carbon-copy of the Enlightenment tradition. The fact that so many historical examples exist that reveal a will to destroy dogma leads to a powerful tenet: It is a natural trait of civilized humans to be original. The fact that uniqueness is so rare reveals that our nature is stifled by an equally potent opposing force: fear.

PUNK IS: a process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and by extrapolation, could lead to social progress.

If enough people feel free, and are encouraged to use their skills of observation and reason, grand truths will emerge. These truths are acknowledged and accepted not because they were force-fed by some totalitarian entity, but because everyone has a similar experience when observing them. The fact that Punks can relate to one another on issues of prejudice comes from a shared experience of being treated poorly by people who don't want them around. Each has his/her own experience of being shunned, and each can relate to another's story of alienation without some kind of adherence to a code of behavior.

The truth of prejudice is derived from the experience they all share, not from a written formula or constitution they have to abide by. Punks learn from this experience that prejudice is wrong, it is a principle they live by; they didn't learn it from a textbook. Without striving to understand, and provoking the held beliefs, the truth remains shrouded behind custom, inactivity, and prescriptive ideology.

WHAT IS TRUTH?

Philosophers distinguish between capital "T" truth and truth with a small "t". Punks deny the former.

Truth with a capital "T" assumes that there is an order prescribed by some transcendental being. That is to say that truth comes ultimately from God, who had a plan for everything when he created the universe.

Little "t" truth is that which we figure out for ourselves, and which we all can agree upon due to similar experience and observations of the world. It is also known as objective truth, from within ourselves, revealed here on this earth; as opposed to big T truth, which comes from outside and is projected down to us, specifically for us to follow. Morality need not be thought of as a product only of big "T" truth. Objective truth lends itself just as readily to a moralistic, spiritual culture.

PUNK IS: a belief that this world is what we make of it, truth comes from our understanding of the way things are, not from the blind adherence to prescriptions about the way things should be.

Punk's dependence on objective truth comes from the shared experience of going against the grain. Anyone who has stood out in a crowd feels the truth of the experience. No one had to write a doctrine in order for the outcast to understand what it meant to be different. The truth was plain enough, and that truth could be understood and agreed upon by all those who shared a common experience.

WHAT IS FEAR?

The fears that drive people to conform have caused dismal periods in human history. The so-called Dark Ages, were tranquil and without upheaval, but also dismally quiet and pestilent, nary a contrasting view to be found. The pseudo-comfort and tranquility that the people of the Dark Ages experienced, by conforming to a rigidly enforced bureaucracy enforced by the king and church, was masked entirely by the misery they had to endure in their day to day life. Life is easy as a peasant, no direction, no purpose, just produce more goods and offspring for the benefit of the king. But using fear to control peasants (or modern-day blue-collar workers for that matter) is just a short-term foul exercise, because peasants have the same mental equipment as the royalty.

The deeply ingrained biological traits of self-recognition and the desire to express the self cannot be quashed for long. Eventually peasants realize that life without the practice of reason is as good as being a farm animal. Being controlled by fear is the same as being biologically inert, unable to take part in the human drama, merely wasting away. The fear that controls human behavior is learned. It is different from the immediate, reflexive, run-away-from-the- nasty-stimulus response that other creatures employ to stay alive. We have motor reflexes like these as well, but fear of failure, and fear of speaking out come from the limbic system.

The limbic system is a network of neurons in our brain that control our most deep-seated emotions. It connects two parts of the brain together: the midbrain, where sensory information is sent (i.e. sight and hearing stimuli) and the forebrain, where that information is processed. Although the forebrain has been around for at least 480 million years (it was present in the earliest vertebrates), it evolved special functions with the advent of humankind.

A specialized portion of the forebrain, called the cerebral cortex, is highly developed in humans. 95% of our cerebral cortex is responsible for associative mental activities like contemplation and planning. The other 5% is responsible for processing motor and sensory information.

By comparison, a mouse (also considered a higher vertebrate), has a cerebral cortex with only 5% of its neurons devoted to associative functions, while 95% are devoted to motor and sensory fuctions.

The highly developed limbic system is at the core of what it means to be human. We differ from other animals in the amount of time we spend planning, contemplating, and expressing ourselves. Our limbic system is very powerful. It can over-ride primitive emotions, and suppress deep desires. Anyone who has ever seen a sad movie with friends, and willfully held back tears because they didn't want their friends to see them crying, employed the power of their limbic system. They contemplated the repercussions of their friends reaction to crying, and shut off the emotional cascade that would have brought the tears.

In the same way that rationality is the product of the limbic system, fear is also centered in the same neurons of the limbic system. Fear is usually rational behavior, based on irrational thoughts, and it can freeze the processing power of the cerebral cortex. Denial and fear go hand in hand, and both are examples of how our limbic system can suppress obvious stimuli and promote behavior that is safe and conforming.

The limbic system is like any other organ in the sense that it can operate unchecked to produce detrimental results. Being in touch with our bodies leads to overall general health, and the limbic system needs constant attention in order to master it. To overcome fear, one needs to be in touch with their limbic system, and recognize when it is suppressing the obvious.

Etiquette and "being nice" are forms of limbic-system repression, necessary at times, but ultimately demeaning of human originality. Lying is the ultimate form of limbic-system repression. It is a denial of the obvious. Truth-tellers, those who are authentic and trustworthy, have learned to master their limbic system. They recognize the desire to lie, but rationalize the futility of advocating something that is not true. Liars, on the other hand, are slaves to their limbic system, out of touch with their most basic mental capacities. Their behavior is guarded and shifty because they let their flawed reasoning, to cover up the obvious, control their entire makeup. They eventually have to give in to the truth and concede defeat, but only after every possible avenue of deception and twisted logic has been advocated in the interest of hiding their fear.

Politicians, Clergymen, Business leaders, and Judges are masters of twisted logic and promotion of fear. They make good intellectual targets for Punkers because they don't respect people who have learned to master their limbic systems. And Punkers are not afraid to point out that which is obvious, even if it means their social status might be jeopardized.

PUNK IS: the constant struggle against fear of social repercussions.

THE PUNK MOVEMENT

I have tried to enumerate some of the factors that make Punk a movement, in the cultural sense. The typical stereotype of a feeble-minded ruffian vandalizing, destroying, stealing, fighting, or arguing in the name of some empty, short-lived cause is no more punk than the pretty-face-empty-head image of today's pop stars.

Because it is so easy for record companies to sell images of violence, sex, and self-importance, many bands have taken the bait and portrayed themselves as Punks, without realizing that they were actually perpetuating a stereotype of conformity that is wholly un-punk.

The "come join us" attitude that seeks to attract followers, usually results in a rabble of weak people who think that their power lies in the large numbers of like-minded clones they have compiled. There is no strength in numbers however, if the people are glued together by a short-sighted, self-serving, fear-induced mantra that promotes factions and exclusionary principles.

Strong ideologies don't require a mob, they persist through time, and never go away, because they are intimately connected to our biology. They are part of what it means to exist as Homo sapiens. Punk typifies that tradition. It is a movement of epic proportions, that transcends the immediacy of the here-and- now, because it is, was, and always will be there-and-forever, as long as humans walk the earth.

As we enter a new era in the voracious march of culture, Punks will have their day. The internet has allowed people to communicate directly once again. On the web, human behavior is interactive, like it was before the advent of mass-media.

People now focus on ideological discussions and lifestyle issues, as opposed to the classic 20th century behavior of closing oneself off from cohorts, and adhering to a network's, or commercial's prescriptive code of acceptable behavior. The lies, and mysteries of elitism will erode quickly as the global conversation that transpires daily on the web invades more people's lives.

The world population will be more receptive to alternative ideologies because they will be creating them. People will be less receptive to ideologies of out- dated institutions because the holes and flaws in their logic will be ever more amplified when they are broadcast instantly around the world as they become revealed.

The "Strength-In-Understanding", and "Knowledge-Is-Power" ethics that Punks maintain will become the norm. The rigidity, brutishness, and futility of secret agendas will be made obvious, paving the way to an appreciation of human uniqueness, and a new era of originality.

WHO IS PUNK?

Everyone has the potential to be punk. It is much harder for someone who comes from a placid, un-challenging, ignorant upbringing, because they don't see the value in questioning or provoking the institutions that gave them such tranquility. But such examples of carefree existence are rare in today's shrinking world.

Eternal questions still burn in the minds of most people. What it means to be human is becoming more clear every decade. Sometimes, people are trained to follow the safe path to an early grave by consuming and repeating the dogma of a fearful aristocracy.

On the other hand, the human spirit is hard to kill. Punk is a microcosm of the human spirit. Punks succeed with their minds, not their brute force. They advance society by their diversity, not their conformity. They motivate others by inclusion, not domination.

They are at the front lines of self-betterment and by extrapolation can improve the complexion of the human race. They adhere to unwritten universal principles of human emotion, obvious to anyone, and shun elitist codes of behavior, or secret agendas. They embody the hope of the future, and reveal the flaws of the past. Don't tell them what to do, they are already leading you.

PUNK IS: the personal expression of uniqueness that comes from the experiences of growing up in touch with our human ability to reason and ask questions.

PUNK IS: a movement that serves to refute social attitudes that have been perpetuated through willful ignorance of human nature.

PUNK IS: a process of questioning and commitment to understanding that results in self-progress, and through repetition, flowers into social evolution.

PUNK IS: a belief that this world is what we make of it, truth comes from our understanding of the way things are, not from the blind adherence to prescriptions about the way things should be.

PUNK IS: the constant struggle against fear of social repercussions.

dopediana
30th March 2004, 06:31
i've always been a bit put off by bad religion since one of their guys wrote an essay about how if you voted for nader jeopardized gore's election.

the essay is all very pretty in itself, i read it about a month ago. it's too bad though that no virginia punks really adhere to that code at all. it's all about the image and trying to freak people out. freaking people out is not something that comes naturally to any of these milk-fed mama's boys. they have to try amazingly hard and it's pathetic. going to shows around here is depressing. the bands suck whenever there's something within a close driving distance. whenever there's something far away there's expensive tickets and gas to consider, traffic, one hour of trying not to drive off the road of boredom for travelling it every day for 30 minutes to get to school. then there's the whole risk of running into the stupid ex and resisting the urge to throw pink confetti on him. i've been jaded.

Marxist in Nebraska
31st March 2004, 21:18
I will go ahead and bump this essay thread up as well... I hope people will take the time to read this as well as Graffin's "Punk Synopsis."

Like "Snyopsis", I read this a few weeks ago at BadReligion.com (http://www.badreligion.com/badreligion/essays/essays.jsp). I will again recommend Graffin's other essays as well.

ATP,

It appears to me that many of the great lefty punk bands share the "Nader spoiler" idea. I disagree with them, but I will not let that keep me from enjoying their great music and usually excellent political lyrics. Do listen to some BR, if you have not already. Their site has several free Mp3s.

Lefty
2nd April 2004, 23:28
I liked the essay. While I am decidedly not punk (I'm more of a wussy whiteboy emo kid type-guy, only without the annoying whininess) I still enjoy a lot of punk music and reading about people that are more hardcore than I. So it's always fun to read an essay like this and understand where all of my Hot Topic-shopping friends are coming from, because they are punk as shit. Anyone who shops at Hot Topic is punk as shit.

atlanticche
3rd April 2004, 15:27
damn you cant you right a smaller punk manifesto :angry:
heres mine anyway:
punk manifesto as written by atlanticche:
Punk rules :P

dopediana
5th April 2004, 11:36
Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 31 2004, 10:18 PM
ATP,

It appears to me that many of the great lefty punk bands share the "Nader spoiler" idea. I disagree with them, but I will not let that keep me from enjoying their great music and usually excellent political lyrics. Do listen to some BR, if you have not already. Their site has several free Mp3s.
i've listened to BR before. they're pretty ok but not my favorite. maybe it's not necessarily just the music but i can get really sensitive and pissy about nader blamers. i haven't heard pennywise blame nader (maybe i'm looking in the wrong places) so i'll stick with them.

guerrillaradio
5th April 2004, 14:06
What are you guys talking about?? Punk is about who spent the most time doing their hair, who can drink the most Special Brew and who can be less interested in the band playing.

dopediana
5th April 2004, 14:18
hardcore is about who can be the skinniest anorexic most straightedge fuck of them all and still have the resolve to complain about how they hate who they are.

guerrillaradio
5th April 2004, 20:43
Folk is about shopping in Hot Topic.

akowa
5th April 2004, 21:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 04:27 PM
damn you cant you right a smaller punk manifesto :angry:
heres mine anyway:
punk manifesto as written by atlanticche:
Punk rules :P
good one atlanticche, I guess you're right ;)

Pawn Power
7th April 2004, 23:26
kick ass! are you really the lead form bad religion?
are you a communist? because alot of punks are anarchists

your wtitting is very good and this puck manifesto is very well pu together

dopediana
8th April 2004, 14:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 08:43 PM
Folk is about shopping in Hot Topic.
folk is about running around naked.



so much better than being fashioncore.......

guerrillaradio
9th April 2004, 00:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 11:26 PM
kick ass! are you really the lead form bad religion?
are you a communist? because alot of punks are anarchists

your wtitting is very good and this puck manifesto is very well pu together
Yeah he's the singer in Bad Religion. All Tomorrow's Parties is Ani DiFranco and I'm Tim Armstrong from Rancid, although I'm actually a Nazi. I'm only allowed on here cos Malte wants my autograph.

guerrillaradio
9th April 2004, 00:09
Originally posted by AllTomorrowsParties+Apr 8 2004, 02:53 PM--> (AllTomorrowsParties @ Apr 8 2004, 02:53 PM)
[email protected] 5 2004, 08:43 PM
Folk is about shopping in Hot Topic.
folk is about running around naked.



so much better than being fashioncore....... [/b]
That depends on the person. I'll pass up seeing Nelson's Willie (geddit??????????) if that's OK.

+ 99.999% of girls look much hotter when they demonstrate a knowledge of hardcore. And that's a fucking fact.

dopediana
9th April 2004, 16:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 12:09 AM
That depends on the person. I'll pass up seeing Nelson's Willie (geddit??????????) if that's OK.

who's to say he'd want to show it to you anyway? at least he doesn't look like an emaciated vampire.


+ 99.999% of girls look much hotter when they demonstrate a knowledge of hardcore. And that's a fucking fact.

sheer opinion, you arrogant delusional fuck.....

love,
ani d.

guerrillaradio
9th April 2004, 20:22
Hahaha. I still think you're confusing hardcore with that twat from AFI.

El Brujo
10th April 2004, 01:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 10:18 PM
hardcore is about who can be the skinniest anorexic most straightedge fuck of them all and still have the resolve to complain about how they hate who they are.
Ill be damned if anyone had the balls to say that to the guys in Agnostic Front, Madball, Skarhead or Suicidal Tendencies.

Pawn Power
10th April 2004, 03:19
[/QUOTE]
Yeah he's the singer in Bad Religion. All Tomorrow's Parties is Ani DiFranco and I'm Tim Armstrong from Rancid, although I'm actually a Nazi. I'm only allowed on here cos Malte wants my autograph.[/QUOTE]


oh, i had my hopes up that it really was greg, but you shot my down tim, haha ;)

Lefty
10th April 2004, 04:45
I'm Rick James.

Ian
10th April 2004, 07:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 02:53 PM
so much better than being fashioncore.......
I'd rather be fashioncore than listen to music which is painfully mediocore, music such as hmm, I don't know... Folk...

celtopunk
10th April 2004, 12:31
Originally posted by AllTomorrowsParties+Apr 5 2004, 11:36 AM--> (AllTomorrowsParties @ Apr 5 2004, 11:36 AM)
Marxist in [email protected] 31 2004, 10:18 PM
ATP,

It appears to me that many of the great lefty punk bands share the "Nader spoiler" idea. I disagree with them, but I will not let that keep me from enjoying their great music and usually excellent political lyrics. Do listen to some BR, if you have not already. Their site has several free Mp3s.
i've listened to BR before. they're pretty ok but not my favorite. maybe it's not necessarily just the music but i can get really sensitive and pissy about nader blamers. i haven't heard pennywise blame nader (maybe i'm looking in the wrong places) so i'll stick with them. [/b]
People who blame Nader are fools.
Gore is not president right now for a number of reasons:
1) He lost his home state of Tennessee.
2) He played out the whole Florida thing like a person who really didn't want to win, he actually conceded the election at one point and then called back to recind his concession. Then he only wanted recounts in certain areas of Florida.
3) milquetoast - look it up if you don't know what it means
4) Lieberman (the guy to vote for if George Bush isn't Jewish enough for you.)
5) All those people voted for Nader because the Dems for the most part did not represent them.

As for Pennywise THEY had their song "Fuck Authority" pulled from the airwaves after Sept. 11. and after all that money had been spent getting the song on the radio.

guerrillaradio
10th April 2004, 12:59
Originally posted by El Brujo+Apr 10 2004, 01:23 AM--> (El Brujo @ Apr 10 2004, 01:23 AM)
[email protected] 5 2004, 10:18 PM
hardcore is about who can be the skinniest anorexic most straightedge fuck of them all and still have the resolve to complain about how they hate who they are.
Ill be damned if anyone had the balls to say that to the guys in Agnostic Front, Madball, Skarhead or Suicidal Tendencies. [/b]
Hahahahahah. Werd.

Eastside Revolt
11th April 2004, 07:30
To me hip-hop is kind of like the new punk. Alot of people will dissagree and probably feel insulted. But, to me it shows our human traits of rebellion, just as well, if not better and in a more organized fashion than punk.

guerrillaradio
11th April 2004, 14:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 07:30 AM
To me hip-hop is kind of like the new punk. Alot of people will dissagree and probably feel insulted. But, to me it shows our human traits of rebellion, just as well, if not better and in a more organized fashion than punk.
Hip hop is far more rebellious than modern drunk/crust punk, indeed.

mentalbunny
11th April 2004, 15:46
I assume you're talking about proper hip-hop, as oppposed to the money-making shit all over the charts and MTV. At least I hope so, all that's about is sex (very degrading sex too, as always it's cool to treat women like dirt) and crime, at least as far as I can see.

With everything, punk and hip-hop, the stuff that's in the mainstream has lost any talent or message.

atlanticche
11th April 2004, 16:40
Originally posted by akowa+Apr 5 2004, 09:18 PM--> (akowa @ Apr 5 2004, 09:18 PM)
[email protected] 3 2004, 04:27 PM
damn you cant you right a smaller punk manifesto :angry:
heres mine anyway:
punk manifesto as written by atlanticche:
Punk rules :P
good one atlanticche, I guess you're right ;) [/b]
*takes a bow*



(does that make any sense?)

guerrillaradio
11th April 2004, 22:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:46 PM
I assume you're talking about proper hip-hop, as oppposed to the money-making shit all over the charts and MTV. At least I hope so, all that's about is sex (very degrading sex too, as always it's cool to treat women like dirt) and crime, at least as far as I can see.

With everything, punk and hip-hop, the stuff that's in the mainstream has lost any talent or message.
:P Yeah...I call the MTV shit rap as opposed to hip hop. It makes sense to me...um. I don't know fuck all about it, I just have a CDR Josh (Abstract Mentality) made me a couple of years or so ago that I love. Just awesome.

And you listen to Anti-Flag so take back the mainstream thing... :P

dopediana
14th April 2004, 17:57
Originally posted by Ian+Apr 10 2004, 07:06 AM--> (Ian @ Apr 10 2004, 07:06 AM)
[email protected] 8 2004, 02:53 PM
so much better than being fashioncore.......
I'd rather be fashioncore than listen to music which is painfully mediocore, music such as hmm, I don't know... Folk... [/b]
ian, why don't you go fist yourself? what a shitty joke. hmm....a genre that either stems from a style of dress involving striped shirts and scarves (or vice versa) or a genre that rose out of experiences in a hard life?

i can't believe anyone would dare to say that about folk. it may not be your cup of tea, perhaps not what you like to listen to the most, but it's the most amazing genre of music ever. you're dismissing the essential human spirit not to mention some of the biggest crusaders for the human condition, woody guthrie, pete seeger, john sebastian, bob dylan, joan baez, arlo guthrie, and loads of others. these were the musicians who actually DID give a damn about people like you and me who were constantly being called insignificant, and they were struggling there on the front lines their entire lives just to tell us that we ARE worth something.

guerrillaradio
14th April 2004, 21:08
Diana I think Ian's just kidding around.

Incidentally, fashioncore has nothing to do with music. The term is used to refer to kids who are fucking clueless about music and just see it as a catwalk. Don't associate that bullshit with hardcore.

Marxist in Nebraska
14th April 2004, 23:23
Is hip-hop the new punk? Not necessarily. It does provide an outlet in a similar manner.

The more important question is whether the punk or hip-hop is mainstream. In punk, today we have Anti-Flag and we have Good Charlotte. In hip-hop, we have Immortal Technique and we have 50 Cent. The mainstream is riddled with mindless shit, while many in the underground use the medium to spread a meaningful political message.

Urban Rubble
14th April 2004, 23:48
i can't believe anyone would dare to say that about folk. it may not be your cup of tea, perhaps not what you like to listen to the most, but it's the most amazing genre of music ever.

That's you opinion Diana. Just because you think it's the most amazing music doesn't make it true.


you're dismissing the essential human spirit not to mention some of the biggest crusaders for the human condition, woody guthrie, pete seeger, john sebastian, bob dylan, joan baez, arlo guthrie, and loads of others. these were the musicians who actually DID give a damn about people like you and me who were constantly being called insignificant, and they were struggling there on the front lines their entire lives just to tell us that we ARE worth something.

Everything you just said (except the specific names) goes just as well for punk rock.


The more important question is whether the punk or hip-hop is mainstream. In punk, today we have Anti-Flag and we have Good Charlotte. In hip-hop, we have Immortal Technique and we have 50 Cent. The mainstream is riddled with mindless shit, while many in the underground use the medium to spread a meaningful political message.

Was Anti Flag supposed to be an example of underground punk ? No offense, but that's a bit laughable. I mean, they definately aren't mainstream like Good Charlotte, but they are very, very far away from underground. I respect Anti Flag, I respect their views, their ethics and how they handle themselves (I don't really like their music that much), but I also have alot of problems. A better example of lefitst, underground punk rock would be Against Me! . But even they are borderline since they just put out and album on Fat.



Which reminds me, everyone should go out and buy some Against Me! shit. They are the best band I've heard since the Clash. They are a mixture of Folk and Punk rock. They're Anarchists and their lyrics will inspire you all.

Marxist in Nebraska
14th April 2004, 23:55
UR,

I was not necessarily saying that Anti-Flag was an example of the underground, though you will not hear them on the radio. That counts for something. Anyway, I was merely contrasting the difference in substance between Anti-Flag (good) and Good Charlotte (very bad).

guerrillaradio
15th April 2004, 00:09
#1 Against Me are terrible but I would think that since they don't shout enough

#2 Anti-Flag are the epitome of corporate punk

For underground punk rock, find hardcore. It has more passion, more meaning and infinitely more of a message.

For generalisations find me.

Urban Rubble
15th April 2004, 02:03
#1 Against Me are terrible but I would think that since they don't shout enough

Well luckily, I don't hold the opinion of a guy who likes Thursday in very high esteem. :lol: No offense buddy, just kidding, kind of. I know how we can go at it, no need, only a joke.

I honestly think they are one of the most amazing, sincere emotional bands I have ever heard. Some of that shit will make me cry given the right mood, but I'm kind of a ***** like that. They really do have some amazing lyrics though, and you can tell they care about what they sing.


#2 Anti-Flag are the epitome of corporate punk

Not quite. They could be if they wanted, but they do have some sort of ethics. I'll come back to that.

The epitome of corporate punk is Rancid, and I'll tell you why. Rancid was a band that was "underground" for a long time, two of it's members are also former members of a "legendary" punk band, Operation Ivy. These guys have respect from every level of the punk community. Somehow, they signed to a major and nobody said shit about it, but now they're back on a small label. They have gradually become more and more "corporate" (I don't know exactly how to say it), but they have done it so slow and with such tact that they have been largely left alone by the punk community, despite the bullshit they have pulled. It's finally gotten to the point where Lars (the only one I respect) has quit the band and they're considering hiring Benji from Good Charlotte. Tim Armstrong put Kelly Osbourne in one of their videos. And let's not forget the whole Transplants thing, they have allowed 3 different major companies to use their songs in their as, some shampoo company and a few others. After all this bullshit, the punk community still respects and supports them, and so does every other fucking teenybopper who thinks they're punk because they saw "Simple Plan" live at MTV spring break. So they get to have their cake and eat it too. I will always love Rancid's music, but they have lost my respect, and that's coming from a guy who still listens to Op Ivy all the time.

As for Anti Flag... They have done some things I disagree with, but it's mainly superficial things like being too cheesy on stage, trying to use the political thing as a gimmick, and generally making mediocre music. However, they had the oppurtunity to take more advantage of it than they already are. The things I like about them are this: To an extent, they practice what they preach. They donate alot of money to good causes. They keep their shows relatively cheap and their merchandise really cheap (at shows). They are also getting alot of kids into revolutionary politics, which can't be bad. I don't really care that much for their music, but I do wear their t-shirt because I support what they do, despite the problems I have with them and despite how much of a douche bag it makes me seem. I don't know, I think the bad outweighs the good.

dopediana
15th April 2004, 17:35
sure, ian's kidding around but that doesn't make him funny, does it?


tyler, have i ever said that i don't respect punk rock? never. and i listen to it. but folk did predecess punk.

Ian
15th April 2004, 23:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 05:35 PM
sure, ian's kidding around but that doesn't make him funny, does it?
I was making a point, you obviously don't like it when music you like is disrespected, and yet you say that music I like is made up of emaciated vampires. Hopefully you notice the inconsistency.

guerrillaradio
16th April 2004, 02:02
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 15 2004, 02:03 AM

#1 Against Me are terrible but I would think that since they don't shout enough

Well luckily, I don't hold the opinion of a guy who likes Thursday in very high esteem. :lol: No offense buddy, just kidding, kind of. I know how we can go at it, no need, only a joke.

I honestly think they are one of the most amazing, sincere emotional bands I have ever heard. Some of that shit will make me cry given the right mood, but I'm kind of a ***** like that. They really do have some amazing lyrics though, and you can tell they care about what they sing.


#2 Anti-Flag are the epitome of corporate punk

Not quite. They could be if they wanted, but they do have some sort of ethics. I'll come back to that.

The epitome of corporate punk is Rancid, and I'll tell you why. Rancid was a band that was "underground" for a long time, two of it's members are also former members of a "legendary" punk band, Operation Ivy. These guys have respect from every level of the punk community. Somehow, they signed to a major and nobody said shit about it, but now they're back on a small label. They have gradually become more and more "corporate" (I don't know exactly how to say it), but they have done it so slow and with such tact that they have been largely left alone by the punk community, despite the bullshit they have pulled. It's finally gotten to the point where Lars (the only one I respect) has quit the band and they're considering hiring Benji from Good Charlotte. Tim Armstrong put Kelly Osbourne in one of their videos. And let's not forget the whole Transplants thing, they have allowed 3 different major companies to use their songs in their as, some shampoo company and a few others. After all this bullshit, the punk community still respects and supports them, and so does every other fucking teenybopper who thinks they're punk because they saw "Simple Plan" live at MTV spring break. So they get to have their cake and eat it too. I will always love Rancid's music, but they have lost my respect, and that's coming from a guy who still listens to Op Ivy all the time.

As for Anti Flag... They have done some things I disagree with, but it's mainly superficial things like being too cheesy on stage, trying to use the political thing as a gimmick, and generally making mediocre music. However, they had the oppurtunity to take more advantage of it than they already are. The things I like about them are this: To an extent, they practice what they preach. They donate alot of money to good causes. They keep their shows relatively cheap and their merchandise really cheap (at shows). They are also getting alot of kids into revolutionary politics, which can't be bad. I don't really care that much for their music, but I do wear their t-shirt because I support what they do, despite the problems I have with them and despite how much of a douche bag it makes me seem. I don't know, I think the bad outweighs the good.
I know all that about Rancid. You missed out their "anarchism". I didn't know Lars had quit though...

And yeah, I'm pretty purist and elitist (*gasp* it's more like protective) when it comes to punk so a band like Anti-Flag who are interested in flirting with magazines and kinda playing the moneymaker's game is always gonna earn my contempt.

And yo, Thursday aren't great but their live show's pretty - what word did you use - emotional. In terms of ethics and business though they're totally fucked. Ditto Thrice, but that isn't gonna remove their latest from my Discman...

guerrillaradio
16th April 2004, 02:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 11:43 PM
you say that music I like is made up of emaciated vampires.
You mean it isn't?? I gotta introduce you to a British band called November Coming Fire. They're great, but they dress like they're heading out San Fran if you get me... :lol:

Ian
16th April 2004, 21:17
Yeah I think I've got one of their mp3s somewhere in the annals of my harddrive, they might seem punk-and-all in 'san fran' clothes, and thats brave of them, but Gary Floyd from the Dicks did it 20 years ago! In Texas! Gotta love that!

edit-spelling correction

guerrillaradio
16th April 2004, 23:40
Nah I meant they dress like AFI meets G-A-Y. Excellent band though. I'll find you a pic.

dopediana
17th April 2004, 08:34
Originally posted by Ian+Apr 15 2004, 11:43 PM--> (Ian @ Apr 15 2004, 11:43 PM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 05:35 PM
sure, ian's kidding around but that doesn't make him funny, does it?
I was making a point, you obviously don't like it when music you like is disrespected, and yet you say that music I like is made up of emaciated vampires. Hopefully you notice the inconsistency. [/b]
i was just fucking around with alan when i said that. i'm sorry to have given the impression of sincerity and conviction in that particular point.

guerrillaradio
17th April 2004, 13:34
Yeah Ian don't ever take Diana seriously. She's about as sincere as a Fox News broadcast. :D

dopediana
17th April 2004, 15:34
ouch. that hurts, alan.



alan is one of the sexiest people i know. wow would i ever like to get my hands on that piece of british ass. i don't want nobody else. when i think of you, alan, i touch myself.


it's a disease.

guerrillaradio
17th April 2004, 23:21
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 03:34 PM
when i think of you, alan, i touch myself.

I figured...after the whole heavy breather phone call thing...