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View Full Version : A Critique of Pure Nonsense



Lardlad95
29th March 2004, 22:20
A Critique of Pure Nonsense
A Radical Analysis of the Science vs. Religion Debate


Intro

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”(Genesis 1:2, NIV Bible). Such a powerful statement, it basically ends the entire science vs. religion debate all by it’s self. Or it would if it weren’t for the fact that the statement lacks any empirical evidence whatsoever. Science doesn’t fair much better though, while it does something that religion doesn’t, i.e. use facts and figures, it’s constantly disproving it’s self and is never quite definite. Despite the obvious flaws on both sides, each school of thought wants to believe that it is the sole authority on the origins of existence, totally writing the other off as farfetched and unrealistic. It hasn’t been until recently however that religion has actually gotten it’s fair share of criticisms, something science has been facing for centuries. The difference is of course that when science was being criticized it wasn’t factual criticisms that were being used, rather it was persecution against the “heretics” and “trouble makers”. Now with the agnostic and atheist populations growing in size, it’s becoming evident that this debate isn’t going anywhere for a very long time.

The trouble is that when it comes to beliefs, there is never any give and take. It’s always been reduced to a childish shouting match where neither person even attempts to hear their adversary out. If it weren’t for the arrogance of the two factions, perhaps they would each realize how ridiculous their positions are. On the one hand you have creationism, an age-old theory that has been upheld by every major religion in history. On the other hand you have empiricism, or science, which asserts that god is a fairy tale, and will be until it can be proven with actual evidence. Religion has a hard time convincing the atheist because most religious arguments are built on philosophical or theoretical bases, and the few pieces of real evidence that they use are ambiguous and fail to actually prove the existence of a deity. Science fails to convince the religious because they simply refuse to abandon their faith. Oddly enough both sides view the other as ridiculous and unrealistic. Even more odd is the fact that both for once, are right.

Part I: The Manifest Idiocy of Religion

“Religion is the opiate of the Masses”-Karl Marx

Before you examine the origin of life, you must first examine the origin of religion it’s self. Now, there are two options that one can choose regarding this subject. The first being: Religion is a creation of man, designed solely as a way to explain the unexplainable (or what science has yet to explain). Man uses religion to comfort himself because he has no way to know the unknown. In which case Atheism is right and after we die we become worm food. The second option is of course: that whichever religion you subscribe to is true. In this scenario you are either reincarnated, attain nirvana, go to heaven, or you go to hell. It would be extremely depressing if the former were true, especially since we’d be losing our very selves, and our existence would somewhat decrease in value. So this gives a lot of credibility to the “religion was a creation of man” contention. Then again if one religion is true, a lot of us are in for a whole lot of trouble, or none at all depending on the particular version of the after life. "If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything." –Blasie Pascal(Atheist’s Wager). This is what is commonly known as “Pascal’s Wager”. Basically the wager states that you should believe in god on the off chance that he/she exists. Why? Because if you believe in god and he/she exists then you are rewarded, if you believe in god and he/she doesn’t exist then who cares, it’s irrelevant because you are dead. Where as if you are an atheist and god happens to exist, you will burn in hell, and if he/she doesn’t exist and you are an atheist, you won’t really have a chance to gloat. So basically for the Christian it is a win/win situation, for the atheist it is lose/irrelevant situation. There is a problem with this theory of course, that being the fact that Pascal only dealt with a Judeo-Christian god. What if however, we all got it wrong it turned out the ancient Greeks had it right the whole time? Zeus would be mighty angry that so many people worshipped some non-existent Middle Eastern god instead of him and the others in the Greek Pantheon. Thus we see that Pascal’s wager suggests believing in God just in case, but it never specifies which god. Apparently the wager takes place on a bigger game board than he anticipated. Because there are so many religions it gets hard to prove which religion is actually correct. So which religion is the correct one? In there lies the problem. You pick the wrong religion and that lands you in the fiery pits of tartarus. Sure one religion could be right, but it’s far too hard to simply select one and hope it’s correct. So if it’s so hard to choose one religion to follow, then how exactly is it possible to argue for creation?

The good people at www.trueorigins.org would say that, “Creationism is based upon the foundation that our world and the cosmos itself testifies to an active Creator, still involved with His creation.”(A true Origin FAQ). Aside from it’s tremendous gender bias, this statement brings up a very interesting point. When most people think of creationism, they assume that creationism is synonymous with Christianity, however this is not the case. The statement didn’t specify which creator created the universe, only that it was in fact created. To be fair, True Origins is an obvious Christian site, though they call themselves scientific creationists. Since creationism isn’t exclusively Christian, it becomes a lot easier to present arguments, and does away with the entire “Pascal’s wager” thing. So the type of creationism isn’t really important now. Essentially the position has now become deism. Deism being a religion that states that God created the universe then left it to it’s self, acting only as an objective observer. Granted different religions can add in their own divine aspects, but for general purposes it is deism.

The main problem that religious arguments have is one that is universal to anyone trying to prove something, this being none other than empirical data. There is no factual proof for the existence of a creator. You can’t see him/her, you can’t hear him/her, and you can’t touch him/her, so what do we have to go by? Generally evidence breaks down into something that can be observed with the senses, unfortunately you can’t observe god. Granted some people make the claim that God speaks to them, or that they are possessed by a divine spirit, but that isn’t really evidence. There is no way to really prove any of this. Lots of people hear things, and not to devalue anyone’s religious experience, but without a way to really prove these experiences they can be summed up as a gigantic hoax or rush of passion. Either way this isn’t actual evidence. If I were to say that Allah told me to lead the Palestinians to victory how exactly could I prove this? Having an epiphany isn’t exactly the same as hearing a voice telling me to do something, and even if I sincerely believed I had received a divine mandate, the rest of the world doesn’t exist within my mind, what reason would they have to believe me? So the proof of god’s existence falls down into the individual’s personal faith. This isn’t exactly a concrete case that is presented. Though it seems to be good enough to convince the believers.

The individual’s faith is a tricky obstacle to deconstruct, mainly because every person has his or her own opinion. However a great number of people don’t seem to realize that their reasons for believing are highly illogical. That isn’t to say that all of the arguements are illogical, but a lot of them are. One argument seems to be that they can find no other explanation for existence. This is possibly the weakest of the arguments, believing in something simply because you have no other explanation. That’s like saying that since you don’t know a plane works you’ll assume that magic pixies sprinkle it with fairy dust and the pilot thinks happy thoughts. This premise still fails to address the question: “What proof is there for a god”. Simply because you do not believe science does not mean that religion is necessarily right. Religion must still present it’s own case even if the one science presents isn’t acceptable to someone. In this type of debate you do not become a victor by default. Bill O’Rielly, noted Journalist and self affirmed Independent, said that he believes in god because “Nature works, everything that man touches goes wrong”. Thus he asserted that there must be some divine plan because man is not capable of creating anything that works as efficiently as the universe. While Mr. O’Rielly is right in the sense that the universe works, he has in no way proved that god exists. It’s a well-known scientific fact that for the most part the universe operates on general laws of physics. This in no way shows that god actually exists, it only shows that the universe generally acts in a somewhat predictable way. Once again the religious must fall back on faith.

Why do the religious have faith though? Or rather, blind faith to be exact. For the most part faith is indoctrinated within people from a very young age. People believe in a certain religion because their parent did. They went to church because they had to. Thus the religion is accepted as truth instead examined objectively. Most people do not question why they believe, instead they listened to their parent and accepted what their parent believed because they were forced to. So what is the real world value of faith? In this particular instance it is no more than simple brainwashing. Of course many Christians do come to the religion by choice, that type of faith is a bit more real. However having faith simply because you were taught to cheapens the entire idea of faith. However faith in general isn’t based on anything at all. One simply decides to believe and does so without any evidence. Now one may turn to god after getting through a horrible situation, a near death experience, or something that is generally traumatizing. But narrowly being missed by a semi-truck doesn’t guarantee that god exists, it just means you got lucky. So what facts can be used to support a divine existence?

Perhaps the best known text outlining a religion is none other than the bible. What does this particular book use to prove god’s existence? Nothing really. It simply asserts that God exists, then goes on to talk about Christian lore. Of course some would say that the bible does prove a divine presence because of its historical and prophetic accuracy. To answer this simply, lots of other religions claim to predict events and even more mention historical occurrences. What exactly makes the bible so special? Once again, our little friend called faith. Of course some would actually site the exact parts of the bible that prove that it is historically accurate. For example the biblical flood, this is easy enough for someone to argue. Many other religions also contest that a global flood did exist, so it must have happened…right? Well not exactly, while it’s certainly possible that there were floods in the region where Noah lived, there is no evidence for a large-scale global flood. Historian Adam White argues that the Egyptians had a civilization long before the flood was said to have happened, and that no global flood ever interrupted it. There is simply no concrete evidence for a flood of that nature. Granted there have been several massive floods through out history, but one massive global flood has yet to be proven. Of course there are other historical inaccuracies. The census that was said to have taken place just prior to Jesus’ birth has been discredited. For one no such census has ever been proven during the Roman Empire. Also many historians doubt that the Romans would ever design such a census, not to mention require so many people to travel great distances simply to sign a tax form. Aside from this none of the works from 60 plus historians from around the area that lived in the time between 10 AD and 100 AD ever mention the stories talked about in the Gospels. So then, if the Bible isn’t 100% accurate, what about other religious texts? The claim is also made that the bible has prophetic value. There is an error in this statement though, mainly because scholars find inconsistencies regarding claims as to when the prophetic books were written. The second half of Isaiah was apparently written more than a century after the first. The first half being written before the Babylonian captivity, the second half written afterward. Even more odd is the book of Daniel, which was actually written 450 or more years after the events it allegedly “prophesied” took place. Evidence of divine inspiration in the prophecies of the bible is dubious at best, and even so called fulfilled prophecies aren’t all that reliable.

For the most part it’s hard to prove that anything is inspired divinely. The Vedas, the Quran, and other various holy books have yet to be shown as anything more than a book. Until one proves the existence of a creator the lines are clearly drawn, it’s either a matter of faith, or a gargantuan lie. Nichiren Shonin, founder of the Nichiren Schools of Buddhism made various predictions in his writings to the Japanese government that came true, that doesn’t mean that he had some special spiritual power, it simply means he was either really smart or really lucky. The validity of prophecies isn’t exactly provable, unless it is documented by several unbiased sources. Simply going by the source it’s self is useless. Saying that god exists because the bible says so is pointless. Of course the Bible is going to say that god exists, the entire premise of the book is built on god existing. There are very few if any objective sources corroborating scriptural claims, this kills creationist credibility.

Setting aside however the validity of various religions, one would still be skeptical of creationist claims regarding the origin of the universe. There are several “origin” myths, including but not limited to the universe appearing out of chaos, the universe starting as a golden egg, and the universe being popped into existence by a higher power. Now the question isn’t, which creation myth is correct, but is the universe created at all? If these myths were to be taken as metaphoric then they wouldn’t conflict with scientific assertions. However most religions take their creation stories literally. The universe really did appear out of chaos, god did really create all of existence in seven days, and Brahma really did plant a seed in the cosmic water. Where is the evidence for these claims? Simply put there is none. As long as there isn’t any evidence for a creator, there isn’t any evidence for religious creation. Instead of providing evidence for their own claims the modern scientific creationist wants to present counter arguments to their opponents arguments. This is all well and good, but the thing about science is that you are never quite done, so even when one theory is disproved, another quickly takes its place. There still is no evidence supporting an existence of a creator. The burden of proof lies on the affirmative, and they have still yet to prove that the universe was created by a conscious entity. The creationist simply asserts that science is wrong and that they are right, presenting a solid, though not perfect, case against science, but does nothing to support their own arguments other than cite one of their scriptures.

In addition to contending that the creator formed the universe they also assert that life came about through divine intervention. There are two schools of thought regarding this topic. The first being that the creator every being that has ever existed, the second that the creator had a definite plan for the world and used evolution as a tool. However for most creationists they disregard the later belief. Life was created, it didn’t just occur through a process of cause and effect. Once again we see a lack of evidence. Instead of presenting their case they attack that of the evolutionist. Various myths for the origins of life exist, each one asserting that a divine being created all organisms. Man, was also created, but something special was done during his creation. He was made special, different from all other beings. Perhaps the reason for such myths is because we as a people don’t want to be considered as mere animals. These legends are a testament to our incredibly huge egos. One of man’s abilities was his power to reason, his free will. Of course one problem with man’s free will in a religious context is if the deity is all knowing. An all-knowing deity contradicts free will. How can one really have a choice if a god knows in advance what’s going to happen? If that is the case then technically there really was no choice at all. For the god to know what’s going to happen in advance, then obviously it had to happen. If it really were a choice then the deity wouldn’t know in advance. So either the god is all knowing, or we have free will, the two are mutually exclusive. Thus even within religion there is a contradiction in man’s importance in comparison to other beings. Of course from a deist standpoint this argument is irrelevant. God would have created the universe with prior knowledge of how things would generally turn out, but there be no one pulling the puppet strings. Thus we are still above the rest of creation, but not by much, since evolution still could have occurred.

To most creationists however evolution is essentially a massive lie, at least in reference to the origins of man. Where then did the primitive man and early hominids come from then? There are several answers to this question. One being the existence of the pre-adamite earth. “The six days’ work as described in Gen. 1 : 3-31 was the restoration of the earth….to it’s original condition before it was made ‘formless and void’, and submerged in water and darkness. Peter speaks of it as the ‘world that then was, that being over flowed with water, perished.’ 2 Pet. 3: 5-7.” (Larkin, 21). Reverend Larkin asserts that the world we inhabit is not the first that was created. Rather this is the second incarnation of that world. In the book of Genesis it is said that in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth, also noting that the earth was formless and void. Going on to mention that the lord hovered above the waters. Obviously Larkin takes this to mean that “In the beginning…” is a totally separate statement from the rest of the section, it is simply an assertion of what happened in the beginning. The “creation” in Genesis was actually a restoration of what had already been created. Thus the world already existed, only it had been destroyed once already. Larkin goes on to support this contention with more scripture. “ ‘For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.’ 2 Pet. 3: 5-6. It is clear that Peter does not refer her to Noah’s flood, for that world of Noah’s day did not perish, and Peter goes on to add that- ‘The heavens and the earth which are now by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.’ Rev. 20: 11-15.” (Larkin, 24) Interestingly enough Larkin also believes that this earth was inhabited by humans, citing Jer. 4:23-26 as a description of the pre-adamite earth’s destruction. In this passage there is a mention of cities, that apparently were destroyed during the destruction of the first earth. Larkin also suggests that the original earth was chaotic, much as one would imagine a pre-historic earth would be. While Larkin doesn’t suggest that these first men are the early hominids, it is easy to see that it doesn’t take a stretch to connect the two ideas. Another theory on the existence of Early human records comes from Genesis. “ Cain said to the lord, ‘My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me’.” (Gen. 4: 13-14). The obvious question here is, whom exactly is Cain scared of? In the bible only four people have been mentioned thus far, and Cain already knocked off one of them. Some would suggest that savage people, fitting the descriptions of “cave men” inhabited the world. Setting aside the archaeological fallacies of such an argument, this no more valid than any other Bible story. Much of the Old Testament has a striking resemblance to many other ancient myths from various cultures. The creation of man, the fall of man, Cain and Able, Abram(Abraham), Sodom and Gomorra, etc. all have the feel of a myth, passed down by tribes. Taking Genesis literally is more than a leap of faith, the only advantage it seems to have over Greek myths, is that the talking animals is kept to a minimum, and the writing is a bit better. Other religions don’t really develop actual theories regarding primitive men, their myths already give a simple explanation. In many religions there were different ages of men, usually corresponding with a metal (i.e. silver, gold, iron, bronze, led, etc.). Some Hindu legends, as well as Greek mythology has variations on this story. In ancient China it was believed that people were formed out of different types of clay, some being inferior to others, though this may have to do more with racial superiority than early hominids.

In the end, religion crumbles down to little more than generic dogma. No actual evidence, only a set of beliefs that are accepted due to blind faith as opposed to hard facts. For institutions that have generally discouraged skepticism religion does a good job of being critical of science. One day perhaps science will destroy it’s self by proving the existence of a god, or maybe this deity will come out of the shadows and take responsibility for all the horrors that have occurred in their creation. Though more likely than not we’ll have to wait until we perish. Of course if Pascal has taught us anything, it may be a good idea to worship just in case, because if you die and there was a god, you are in for a hell of a bad time.


Part II: The Manifest Arrogance of Science


“Science is like a blabber mouth that ruins a movie by giving away the ending. Well I say there are some things we don’t want to know…important things”-Ned Flanders © The Simpsons

Science is absolutely empiricist, positively materialist, and most definitely the most arrogant school of thought on the face of the planet. Okay, it isn’t a school of thought…anymore, but it used to be. There was once a time when science was actually a philosophy, grouped with metaphysical theories and every other abstract type of thinking known to man. Then scientists started to realize that they could prove their ideas, where as their fellow philosophers only had speculation. Thus science became the definitive authority on how the world worked, or it would have if it weren’t for the fact that religion went basically unchecked for centuries. The few times a scientist did step out of line, they were quickly brought on trial and told to abandon their beliefs, which they usually did. Eventually however religion began to loosen its grip and science ran rampant through the streets. As the old adage goes, “give them an inch and they take a mile”. Now scientists don’t accept anything that can’t be proven without experimentation, leaving philosophy and religion in the category of opinion, never to be taken as fact again. This has made the atheist community somewhat conceited. While I’m sure that you can’t scientifically prove morality, I think the atheists would be better off if they took a lesson in humility. What I’m getting at, is science’s inability to see the other side’s point of view. Once it became clear that religion wasn’t in the least bit scientific that was the end of that, science threw it out like it was a piece of trash.

The atheist sees the believer as nothing more than a child believing in fairy tales. If you believe in god, why not Peter Pan, or magic pixies? Without any tangible proof they see no reason to even consider religion as an option. Faith to them is basically admitting that you are closed, if not simple, minded. Why on earth would you believe something you couldn’t prove? It’s not so much that they disagree with believers, it’s the fact that they are so harsh in their criticisms. The materialist asserts that everything that exists is made up of nothing but matter, fair enough. However they completely disregard the fact that not everyone sees the world the same as them, not because they love fairy tales, but because they see a reason to believe in a spiritual realm. Now why they see a reason for it is never quite clear and varies from person to person, but the point is that they do, and they should at least be heard out.

To be honest though there is nothing wrong with how materialists, atheists, and empiricists treat the religious, especially after their persecution through out history, not to mention the fact that believers are sometimes just as stubborn. The problem is that they fail to realize the limitations of science. You can not use the scientific method to determine what is truth or what is morally right or wrong. If you rely solely on science as a means of explaining the world you will fall short on many issues. Particularly when it comes to theoretical issues. Science is a wonder tool to use if you need a cure to a disease or if you want to find the age of a star, but religion fills in what science can’t. Religion deals with morality, emotions, and other such abstract topics. However the scientist never wants to concede anything to religion, instead they would rather focus on the physicality of existence, something religion simply can’t do.

This isn’t the only problem that science faces, its largest roadblock is the fact that it continually disproves it’s self. Science once asserted that the universe was made up of an elastic material known as “ether”. Then physicists figured out that “ether” didn’t exist, so they developed another theory. When that one didn’t pan out they came up with another one, and another, and another. Science doesn’t really offer definite answers, instead it simply proves the previous idea to be false. Take the example of the big bang, a generally accepted theory in the scientific community. The big bang theory suggests that the universe began as a singularity (an infinitely small particle) and through some occurrence it exploded and began to expand, creating the universe. However even proponents of the big bang aren’t able to offer a solid answer. “While the theorems that Penrose and I proved showed that the universe must have had a beginning. They indicated that the universe began in a big bang, a point where the whole universe, and everything in it, was scrunched up into a single point of infinite density. At this point, Einstein’s general theory of relativity would have broken down, so it cannot be used to predict in what manner the universe began. One is left with the origin of the universe apparently beyond the scope of science.” (Hawking, 79). Despite the fact that Stephen Hawking, possibly the smartest man to ever live admits that perhaps science doesn’t have all the answers Atheists still do not even consider religion as a viable explanation. To be fair Hawking later admits that the only reason the theory of relativity breaks down in the singularity is because Einstein left out the uncertainty principle when writing his theory. However regardless of this there is still the possibility that science may not have all the answers. “ We must try to understand the beginning of the universe on the basis of science. It may be a task beyond our powers, but we should a tleast make the attempt.” (Hawking 79). Still thought it seems that science would rather die fighting than simply give up and use the religion cop out.

What science does have in common with religion is that each has many different approaches to the same subject. There are a large number of religions, but even more scientific theories. While the big bang is widely accepted it is not taken as a scientific truth. There are other theories which try to understand the origins of the universe, but don’t necessarily assert that the universe had a starting point. “Physicists are just beginning to poke and prod at the big implications of superstring theory. That’s what Burt Ovurt of the University of Pennsylvania was doing during a 1998 cosmology conference at the Newton Institute of Mathematical Sciences in Cambridge, England. He asked : If we live on a brane that’s wafting through multidimensional space, why shouldn’t there be other such branes floating around out there? Nothing in the theory ruled out this possibility. And if other branes exist, they could interact….If the interaction between branes was a collision, it would trigger a fantastically powerful reaction…” (Discover, 36). Basically superstring theory asserts that space is really ten dimensional and that our universe is a three-dimensional plane existing in the ten dimensional field. As odd as this sounds, the math actually works out in this theory. Ovurt and others believed that the collision between two of these three dimensional branes could trigger enough energy for the universe to be created. After the collision the universe expands and expands only to cool down and become dormant until another cosmic collision. The math apparently works out for this theory also. Unfortunately for Ovurt and Hawking all they have to go on is mathematics. There is no real way to prove that these things occurred, or can occur. Mathematically they are plausible, but it’s kind of hard to get an eyewitness account of the universe being created. Though mathematics has more bearing than scriptures that have been translated from 5 different languages, they still aren’t exactly what one would call definitive proof. At the very least cosmological theory is exceptionally interesting, but then again so are tales about snakes talking to naked women.

The origin of the universe debate is pretty much at a stalemate, though as more and more research is done science seems to be gaining the advantage. However the origin of life debate is still any man’s game. In the right corner you have religion, whose unshakable faith in god leads them to believe that life was created. In the left corner you have science which believes that life evolved from previously existing organisms. Of course religion always pulls out its ace, which came first, the chicken or the egg? The answer is pretenoid microspheres of course. Though it might have been some other type of preboint. The point is however that all life originated from inanimate objects…how uplifting. I am only a few million years removed from being a lab experiment, thanks science, you’ve effectively cheapened my existence. Stanley Miller and a man by the name of Oparin were two biochemists who each did experiments that resulted in amino acids being created. Later other scientists elaborated on these experiments and created cell like structures. The preboints, as they are called, looked like prokaryotes, they used ATP, had some type of genetic information, and had selectively permeable membranes. They weren’t exactly cells, but almost creating life out of some chemicals is still pretty impressive. But there is a problem, no cytosine, one of the nucleotides found in DNA and RNA has been created in any gas charge experiments. “…not the slightest trace of cytosine has been produced in gas discharge experiments, and nor has it been found in meteorites… So ‘prebiotic’ productions of cytosine have always been indirect, and involve the methodology alluded to above. That is, cyanoacetylene (HCCCN) and cyanoacetaldehyde (H3CCOCN) have been found in some spark discharge experiments. Organic chemists have obtained pure and fairly strong solutions of each, and reacted each of them with solutions of other compounds which are allegedly likely to be found on a ‘primitive’ earth. Some cytosine is produced. This then apparently justifies experiments trying to link up pure and dry cytosine and ribose to form the nucleoside cytidine. However, these experiments have been unsuccessful (although analogous experiments with purines have produced 2 % yields of nucleosides),[19] despite a high level of investigator interference.” (Sarfati). How then could DNA come to exist and contain Cytosine if the very experiments used to produce life never contained the nucleotide? Sure cytosine has been produced in similar experiments, but never during the experiments that produced amino acids and preboints. Thus once again science provides an answer, but not a solid one.

However this is getting a little too deep into the beginnings of evolution. What proof do scientists have to back up evolution? Well Darwin used what is commonly referred to as “micro-evolution”, he observed small evolutionary changes in animals of the same species, such as finches and tortoises. Micro-evolution has made a pretty strong case for the changes over time theory, but it has yet to convince a lot of people. Mainly because large-scale evolution isn’t observable, much like the theories regarding the creation of the universe. So instead scientists must use fossil records to piece together a picture from a long time ago. One argument made against religion is the lack of transitional fossils. Skeptics believe that there should be billions upon billions of transitional fossils, showing the changes from one species to the next. Aside from the fact that not every animal will be come fossilized, the scientific community has found various arguments to refute this assertion. “The idea that gradual change should appear throughout the fossil record is called phyletic gradualism. It is based on the following tenets: a) New species arise by the transformation of an ancestral population into its modified descendants. b) The transformation is even and slow. c) The transformation involves most or all of the ancestral population. d) The transformation occurs over most or all of the ancestral species' geographic range. However, all but the first of these is false far more often that not. Studies of modern populations and incipient species show that new species arise mostly from the splitting of a small part of the original species into a new geographical area. The population genetics of small populations allows this new species to evolve relatively quickly. Its evolution may allow it to spread into new geographical areas. Since the actual transitions occur relatively quickly and in a relatively small area, the transitions don't often show up in the fossil record. Sudden appearance in the fossil record often simply reflects that an existing species moved into a new region. Once species are well-adapted to an environment, selective pressures tend to keep them that way. A change in the environment which alters the selective pressure would then end the "stasis" (or lead to extinction). It should be noted that even Darwin did not expect the rate of evolutionary change to be constant. [N]atural selection will generally act very slowly, only at long intervals of time, and only on a few of the inhabitants of the same region. I further believe that these slow, intermittent results accord well with what geology tells us of the rate and manner at which the inhabitants of the world have changed. [Darwin 1872, ch. 4, "Natural Selection," pp. 140-141]” (Talk Origins, Claim CC201). The people at talk origins also note that one reason for the lack of “billions” of transitional fossils is that fossilization isn’t a very common process, not to mention there were some periods and areas where the conditions weren’t suitable for fossilization.

Even though science can refute creationist attacks they still do not have any theories which are 100% true. A theory can never be proved correct, it can be supported and defended until someone proves it wrong. There is a very slim chance that Stephen Hawking will ever find a unified theory, and it’s doubtful that we’ll ever be able to see evolution in action. Thus it’s a wonder why the science community acts so high and mighty when it’s failed to answer our question’s just as many times as religion has. It’s a wonder why religion continually tries (and fails) to refute science when science continually refutes it’s self. Atheists have no reason to be so arrogant when science can’t offer any tangible evidence that gives us a look at our origins, at least religion offers some interesting stories.


Part Three: In the Beginning of the End

“When you do something right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all”-God © Futurama


Regardless of how we came to be one thing is blatantly clear, if a god did create this world he/she is extremely sadistic. Not because we live on an immoral planet that is corrupt and inherently evil (though that is a good reason), but because he/she never really gave us a way to actually know how we got here. Instead of giving us real proof we were given ambiguous religious “evidence” and the ability to think. With the religious “evidence” we can place a bet on which god is the real one and hope for the best, and with the ability to think we can keep developing theories and disproving them until we are blue in the face. If that is not evil, I’m not sure what is. Neither side can prove their case, they can only offer vague explanations and poorly thought out arguments. I suppose it’s a test of faith, but if having to live a life without answers is what we face here on earth, imagine what hell must be like. Of course if we are all lucky we’ll be reincarnated. Why? So that we can forget about our past lives and go through the process again and again and again. That way we won’t remember how troubling this entire situation was, and some god can have a good laugh at our expense.

Despite the tremendous lack of evidence from either side, it really does come down to your personal beliefs. Neither side is really all that convincing when you think about it, and if you are looking at the situation from an objective point of you, it’s really easy to see just where both sides go wrong. It’s easier to just sit on the sidelines and take in both arguments respectively and reserve judgment for your deathbed. The best choice to make in this situation is to be objective, mainly because both sides are so wrapped up in their own dogma that they fail to see the advantages to their opponent’s arguments, and the flaws in their own. Instead of trying to see how science and religion can work together, they want to draw battle lines and tear the other’s head off. Though at least it’s a fair fight, in this match up of wits, both combatants are unarmed.



Bibliography


Lemonick, Michael D. “Before the Big Bang”. Discover. February 2004, pp. 35-41.


Hawking, Stephen. The Universe in a Nutshell. New York: Bantam, 2001


Larkin, Rev. Clarence. Dispensational Truth or God’s Plan and Purpose in the Ages. Pennsylvania: Re. Clarence Larkin Est., 1918


Life Application Study Bible: New Inernational Version. Illinois/Michigan:
Tyndal House Publishers Inc./ Zondervan Publishing House, 1986


Wallace, Timothy. “Five Major Evolutionist Misconceptions about Evolution”. True Origins Archive . http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp#fossils
(02 September 2002)


Wallace, Timothy. “A TrueOrigin FAQ”. True Origins Arcive.
http://www.trueorigin.org/faq01.asp (23 September 2002)



Barnett, Adrian. “Atheist’s Wager”. Atheist’s Wager.
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html (26th Feb, 2000)




“Historical Inaccuracies in the Bible”. Islam Answers.
http://www.ajnabiz.com/Historical_errors_of_Bible.htm (2003-2004)



“The Origin of Life on Earth”. The Origin of Life on Earth.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/abiog/virginiaorigin.htm




“Claim CC201”. The Talk Origins Archive.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC201.html (2004-3-17)




Sarfati, Jonathan. “Origin of Life: Instability of Building Blocks.” True Origins Archive.
http://www.trueorigin.org/originoflife.asp (12 June 2002)



Shenkman, Richard. Legends, Lies & Cherished Myths of World History. New York: Haper Collins Publishers, 1993.




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I hope you enjoyed my Paper, any comments and or criticisms are welcome

elijahcraig
30th March 2004, 06:01
Science doesn’t fair much better though, while it does something that religion doesn’t, i.e. use facts and figures, it’s constantly disproving it’s self and is never quite definite. Despite the obvious flaws on both sides

Science disproving previous scientific findings is not a “flaw,” but an asset.


The trouble is that when it comes to beliefs, there is never any give and take. It’s always been reduced to a childish shouting match where neither person even attempts to hear their adversary out.

I think this is what YOU believe as opposed to what the facts are. Many Scientists have gone through this debate very carefully and not in an arrogant manner. Many of the early Scientists especially.


On the other hand you have empiricism, or science, which asserts that god is a fairy tale, and will be until it can be proven with actual evidence.

Chomsky has proven empiricism to be the wrong way to go about science.


What if however, we all got it wrong it turned out the ancient Greeks had it right the whole time? Zeus would be mighty angry that so many people worshipped some non-existent Middle Eastern god instead of him and the others in the Greek Pantheon.

I think, if you are going to investigate this seriously, you should analyze also the psychological basis for religion in a given society, not just the literal interpretations.


I have other problems with your essay. But its rather long and I'm not very energetic at the moment.

Lardlad95
30th March 2004, 20:17
Science disproving previous scientific findings is not a “flaw,” but an asset.

I meant "flaw" when it comes to giving us a definite answer about our origins. Science has yet to give us a definite answer, niether has religion. You took that statement out of context. the full quote reads:

Science doesn’t fair much better though, while it does something that religion doesn’t, i.e. use facts and figures, it’s constantly disproving it’s self and is never quite definite. Despite the obvious flaws on both sides, each school of thought wants to believe that it is the sole authority on the origins of existence, totally writing the other off as farfetched and unrealistic.

The statement is in refference to the origins of existence, not saying that constantly disproving it's self is a flaw unto it's self. but that if science wants to act like it's the sole authority on the origins of existence it becomes a flaw because it will never porvide us with a definite answer.


I think this is what YOU believe as opposed to what the facts are. Many Scientists have gone through this debate very carefully and not in an arrogant manner. Many of the early Scientists especially.

I'm sure there are scientists who aren't arrogant. However I'm not just reffering to people within the scientific community, I'm talking about lay people also. I was talking about the people who subscribe to a particular school of thought, including Scientists, Theologians, and lay persons. I simply don't see any reason for either side to be as arrogant as they are when neither has given us a real answer.



Chomsky has proven empiricism to be the wrong way to go about science.

I meant empiricism in the sense of relying solely on observation and experimentation as the means of arriving at a conclusion. I didn't mean empricism, the school of thought that believed in arriving at a conclusion on the basis of experience.

IF you were using some other definition please tell me


I think, if you are going to investigate this seriously, you should analyze also the psychological basis for religion in a given society, not just the literal interpretations.

That particular part was written specificaly in reffrence to Pascal's wager and Pascal's assumption that "god" would be a judeo-christian god.

Also this isn't my final draft, this is a second draft, with the only major changes done regarding the prophetic abilities of the bible.

As far as the psychological reasons, would you care to elaborate on what you think I missed, or what you think I should research and add?



I have other problems with your essay. But its rather long and I'm not very energetic at the moment.

Well I hope that you'll be able to present these to me later. For the record this wasn't an in depth look at religion, it was a general look at Science vs. Religion. I am working on an in depth study of religion, but it takes a look at it's evolution through human society.

Thanks for your criticisms though, they are duelly noted.

elijahcraig
30th March 2004, 21:05
I meant "flaw" when it comes to giving us a definite answer about our origins. Science has yet to give us a definite answer, niether has religion. You took that statement out of context. the full quote reads:

Science doesn’t fair much better though, while it does something that religion doesn’t, i.e. use facts and figures, it’s constantly disproving it’s self and is never quite definite. Despite the obvious flaws on both sides, each school of thought wants to believe that it is the sole authority on the origins of existence, totally writing the other off as farfetched and unrealistic.

The statement is in refference to the origins of existence, not saying that constantly disproving it's self is a flaw unto it's self. but that if science wants to act like it's the sole authority on the origins of existence it becomes a flaw because it will never porvide us with a definite answer.


The usual conclusion of Scientists is that we CANNOT know our nature. At least those that follow the line of modern linguistics, and all of its carry-over effects.


As far as the psychological reasons, would you care to elaborate on what you think I missed, or what you think I should research and add?

James Frazer, Joseph Campbell, CG Jung, and the thinkers in that line of psychology.

Lardlad95
31st March 2004, 19:25
The usual conclusion of Scientists is that we CANNOT know our nature. At least those that follow the line of modern linguistics, and all of its carry-over effects.

I would tend to agree, however I wasn't speaking to scientists per say. i was speaking to anyone who would subscribe to that train of thought. The general concensus about priests and revs. at che-lives is that they are closed minded, however I'm sure they aren't all are. Just as alot of scientists arent arrogant and closed minded. However I was speaking to the general public.


James Frazer, Joseph Campbell, CG Jung, and the thinkers in that line of psychology.

Thanks I'll look them up once I get home.

elijahcraig
31st March 2004, 22:38
The general concensus about priests and revs. at che-lives is that they are closed minded, however I'm sure they aren't all are. Just as alot of scientists arent arrogant and closed minded. However I was speaking to the general public.

This is a fact. Liberation Theology for example. Paul E. Sigmund is a good source on this. Many other socialist priests, etc.

Oscar Romero was assassinated for his outrage at the US government for its policy in El Salvador—after giving mass if I’m correct. And he was a Catholic priest.

Also, Aristide.



I think the view of most on priests is correct on this website. The majority serve the interests of those in power—as always. This has been going on forever. Sometimes the priests actually believe what they are doing is correct. And I’m sure it is much more true of Imperialist countries than poor countries.

Lardlad95
1st April 2004, 01:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 11:38 PM





I think the view of most on priests is correct on this website. The majority serve the interests of those in power—as always. This has been going on forever. Sometimes the priests actually believe what they are doing is correct. And I’m sure it is much more true of Imperialist countries than poor countries.

I would tend to agree, however I don't want to generalize the spokesman for anyone group. I'm sure not all reverends are Jerry Falwells.

Oh and for the record, I presented my paper infront of my iology class...it dind't go over so well. While I was the only one to present actual evidence, not just bible quotes, people just tuned me out.

When I criticized science everyone loved it, but when I criticized religion they wouldn't have it. THey refused to hear me out...it's really annoying

elijahcraig
1st April 2004, 02:42
iology class

What is "iology"?

RedAnarchist
1st April 2004, 10:17
Biology probably

Lardlad95
3rd April 2004, 00:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:17 AM
Biology probably
correct...my fingers refuse to type the letter.....the letter...the letter "b"...sorry I had to use a pen to type it my fingers wouldn't do it.

redstar2000
10th April 2004, 22:58
...I think the atheists would be better off if they took a lesson in humility. What I’m getting at, is science’s inability to see the other side’s point of view. Once it became clear that religion wasn’t in the least bit scientific that was the end of that, science threw it out like it was a piece of trash.

Why should we humble ourselves before "trash"? In what way would that make us "better off"?

If you kept your garbage in your living space, there'd eventually be no room to live...not to mention the stink and the roaches!

If science took religious "explanations" seriously, then there'd eventually be no room for scientific thought at all...since there are superstitious "explanations" for everything.

Not to mention the stink of incense and the inevitable infestation of priesthoods crawling over every public and private space.


It’s not so much that they disagree with believers, it’s the fact that they are so harsh in their criticisms.

Atheists may be "harsh" in their criticisms of the gullibility of believers -- but nothing matches the treatment of believers by those who believe differently. There's nothing in the history of atheism (not even Stalin!) to match the Crusades, for example.


However [atheists] completely disregard the fact that not everyone sees the world the same as them, not because they love fairy tales, but because they see a reason to believe in a spiritual realm. Now why they see a reason for it is never quite clear and varies from person to person, but the point is that they do, and they should at least be heard out.

Why? Once someone declares that they believe in a "spiritual realm", for what reason do they deserve "a fair hearing"? A scholar who studies superstitious mythology might be interested in what they have to say; why should anyone else?

Superstitious "world-views" are irrational by definition. Anyone who takes them seriously has failed a crucial test of rational thinking.


The problem is that they fail to realize the limitations of science. You can not use the scientific method to determine what is truth or what is morally right or wrong.

On the contrary, I can't think of any scientist who has written on this subject who has not "admitted" this "weakness".

There appears to be, thus far, no way to reason from what is in nature to what should be in human relations.

What science can do is tell you (in considerable detail) what the consequences of a particular choice in moral values will be.

If you wish to exterminate the heathen through the use of nuclear weaponry, science will tell you what the consequences of that decision will be. If you think homosexuality is an abomination "in the eyes of God", science will tell you in advance that no matter how vigorously you persecute them, you will never eliminate them.


This isn’t the only problem that science faces; its largest roadblock is the fact that it continually disproves itself.

Science doesn't see this as a "roadblock" but rather as a wide-open freeway. Although we humans would very much like to know "everything" with "absolute certainty", science learned the impossibility of this long before the emergence of quantum physics.

Science strives for the best available approximation of the truth, always conscious of the fact that a good approximation should be and probably will be replaced by a better approximation.

This view is disappointing to those who seek "100% certainty" -- that can't be helped. But it is, to say the least, unfair to accuse science of "arrogance" when scientists themselves freely admit the uncertainties in their conclusions.

What they do say, correctly, is that the certainty of any form of superstitious "explanation" is zero.


I am only a few million years removed from being a lab experiment; thanks science, you’ve effectively cheapened my existence.

Would it make your existence "more expensive" if you got the time-scale right? The oldest fossils are thought to be 3 to 4 billion years old.

More to the point, why should the natural processes that led to life (and ultimately you) have any bearing on the value you place on your existence?

It seems to me that the fact that I exist is sufficient foundation to value myself...without regard to how I came into existence. I am important to myself and to such other humans that may concern themselves with my fate...who cares what others think?


Even though science can refute creationist attacks, they still do not have any theories which are 100% true.

But they have a great many theories that are 90% or more likely to be true; theories that have accumulated a great deal of evidence in their support and no evidence against them has turned up. This is the kind of "practical certainty" that science does best.

It seems to be the only kind of certainty that humans can attain.


Despite the tremendous lack of evidence from either side, it really does come down to your personal beliefs.

How can you say this? Science offers an enormous amount of evidence; religion offers none at all!


The best choice to make in this situation is to be objective, mainly because both sides are so wrapped up in their own dogma that they fail to see the advantages to their opponent’s arguments, and the flaws in their own.

What are the "advantages" in religious "arguments"? Your own paper exposes religious "arguments" as nothing more than vigorous assertions unsupported by evidence.

And, as noted above, science does acknowledge its own uncertainties. It is well aware of its "flaws" and ceaselessly tries to correct them.

What more could one ask?


Instead of trying to see how science and religion can work together, they want to draw battle lines and tear the other’s head off.

Actually, that was tried...in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There were a number of prominent scientists of that era who attempted a scientific investigation of the "supernatural".

They came up with nothing.

There are still occasional efforts made today...often by professional magicians who delight in exposing "mediums" as fraudsters.

But no real, practicing scientist would bother with that crap now. What really drives the superstitious up the wall is not that science tries to "tear religion's head off", but rather that science ignores religion as irrelevant.

That's what the religious really mean when they talk about the "arrogance of science".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

apathy maybe
13th April 2004, 12:51
Holy shit that is long. And no I havn't read it all.

But I think it is about how science can not explain everthing and that is why there is religion. (Summerising a rather large document (or at least too large to read on a computer screen).)

Science can't explain everthing (or at least not yet), such as what happened before the big bang? Religion can explain it (God created everthing). But plently of other people have come up with ideas about that too. (Such as a computer exisiting in hyperspace created everything, we all exist inside a computer program, we don't actually exist etc.) So religion loses on that one, but so does science.

Science explains things in very much the same way that most religions do. That is the 'this is so' method. Except science adds a (in most cases) 'and here is why'. Only a few people can understand either the 'this' or the 'why'.

That is why religion is still around and will continue to be with us. While science explains things, it rarely does so in a way that the majority (or even a large minority) of people understand. Most people have to take on faith that nothing can travel faster then the speed of light. That the Earth is made of rock and not cheese. That the centre of the Earth is molton iron.

Science can't prove things and niether can religion. But religion offers people life after death and/or other inticements to join. Science offers only knowledge that only a select few can truely understand.

redstar2000
13th April 2004, 13:21
While science explains things, it rarely does so in a way that the majority (or even a large minority) of people understand.

I'm not so sure of that. There's a growing "industry" of popular science publishing and the books do sell.

There is, after all, a difference between a rough understanding of a particular scientific explanation and the understanding required to actually participate in that particular field.

I think most of science can be, at least roughly, understood by anyone of normal intelligence who is willing to make the effort.

What will help is the growing disrepute of superstitious "explanations" over time. People might not understand a particular scientific phenomenon...but they will know that a scientific explanation exists.

Today, not all that many people understand the physics of air transport...but they would laugh at anyone who suggested that planes fly because "angels" hold them up in the air.


That is why religion is still around and will continue to be with us.

I disagree. I think religion is "still around" because it serves the material (class) interests of our rulers.

I expect it to be effectively wiped out within a few generations of the end of class society.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Eastside Revolt
13th April 2004, 21:08
"Where as if you are an atheist and god happens to exist, you will burn in hell, and if he/she doesn’t exist and you are an atheist, you won’t really have a chance to gloat. So basically for the Christian it is a win/win situation, for the atheist it is lose/irrelevant situation."

This is if you are a Christian. Now what if you are a Christian, and say the truth actually is that there is a nietherworld you go to in the afterlife; where you spend eternity with biengs that died on other planets? And you actually never get a chance to meet your loved ones again. Makes for a depressing eternity doesn't it? See? It's not a win/win situation for the Christian. :P

Honestly, this is written from a Christian persective or bias of truth.

"The problem is that they fail to realize the limitations of science. You can not use the scientific method to determine what is truth or what is morally right or wrong."

The problem is the same with religion, any religion. Religions also fail to realize the limitations of their so-called knowledge. They can't accept thatr there might be many gods, or (in Christianity's case) that the creator of the universe isn't a white-skinned male human-being, who actually gives a shit whether or not you aknowledge him.

Lardlad95
13th April 2004, 21:39
Why should we humble ourselves before "trash"? In what way would that make us "better off"?

If you kept your garbage in your living space, there'd eventually be no room to live...not to mention the stink and the roaches!


I don't think you should humble yourself before trash, mainly because I don't consider religion trash. I consider it one man's truth and another man's fairy tale, but never anyone's trash.

How remaining civil towards the religous, the belivers, and the theologians betters you is simple. Mainly because you won't be closed minded, something usually associated with the religous themselves.


If science took religious "explanations" seriously, then there'd eventually be no room for scientific thought at all...since there are superstitious "explanations" for everything.

I wouldn't take it that far. I only have issues with the lack of civility and the arrogance. Atheists assuming that the only type of "proof" is scientific proof, the same as the beliver ignores scientific data.


Not to mention the stink of incense and the inevitable infestation of priesthoods crawling over every public and private space.

Shut up, I burn incense...it covers the smell of crack and underage hookers.


Atheists may be "harsh" in their criticisms of the gullibility of believers -- but nothing matches the treatment of believers by those who believe differently. There's nothing in the history of atheism (not even Stalin!) to match the Crusades, for example.

Are you justifying bad behavior with horrendous behavior? The crusades doesn't excuse uneccasary harsness, belittlement, and insults. It simply means that the Crusades were evil, and that some athiests behave like jerks.


Why? Once someone declares that they believe in a "spiritual realm", for what reason do they deserve "a fair hearing"? A scholar who studies superstitious mythology might be interested in what they have to say; why should anyone else?

Who knows, perhaps they could finally present you with the evidence you need to finally accept Jesus as your savior. Or maybe they'll ppresent you with a reason for their own faith. There is no reason to shut them down automatically.

Oh and about the savior thing I got that line yesterday, it never ceases to amaze me that these people want me to believe that Jesus died for my sins. I'm going to start dropping of nichiren pamphlets in their mailboxes or something see if it freaks them out...oh and some commie pamphlets.



Superstitious "world-views" are irrational by definition. Anyone who takes them seriously has failed a crucial test of rational thinking.

I didn't know there was a single test....care to let me borrow a practice test? Or perhaps you could tell me some of the questions.


On the contrary, I can't think of any scientist who has written on this subject who has not "admitted" this "weakness".

There appears to be, thus far, no way to reason from what is in nature to what should be in human relations

Too bad that for the most part this paper was in refference to the average believer. I've read of several scientists and theologians who aren't arrogant. Problem is the average person is arrogant. OF course the average person also doesn't know that in addition to calling homosexuality an abomination that it also calls shrimp and abomination www.godhatesshrimp.com. Also they fail to realize that stanley miller's experiments never produced cytosine under realistic conditions. Yet both sides wish to believe that they are 100% right.




What science can do is tell you (in considerable detail) what the consequences of a particular choice in moral values will be.

If you wish to exterminate the heathen through the use of nuclear weaponry, science will tell you what the consequences of that decision will be. If you think homosexuality is an abomination "in the eyes of God", science will tell you in advance that no matter how vigorously you persecute them, you will never eliminate them.

If I view premarital sex as wrong, it doesn't matter that science can prove that relatively nothing can go wrong with safe premarital sex, I'm still going to be of the opinion that you should wait for marriage.

Sure science can show me the consequences, that doesn't necassarily mean it'll change my opinion. Simply because it's just that, an opinion.


Science doesn't see this as a "roadblock" but rather as a wide-open freeway. Although we humans would very much like to know "everything" with "absolute certainty", science learned the impossibility of this long before the emergence of quantum physics.

Science strives for the best available approximation of the truth, always conscious of the fact that a good approximation should be and probably will be replaced by a better approximation.

And thats just it, if you can never get a hold on the absolute truth then how can you fault someone for believing in a god? Neither side can really be 100% positive. Sure science realizes this, but what value does this have to the average person? The average person wants to feel secure, which is why they believe that their personal view on the world is 100% correct.




This view is disappointing to those who seek "100% certainty" -- that can't be helped. But it is, to say the least, unfair to accuse science of "arrogance" when scientists themselves freely admit the uncertainties in their conclusions.

TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE PERSON! People who believe that science is the ultimate answer are arrogant.



What they do say, correctly, is that the certainty of any form of superstitious "explanation" is zero.

0%? I doubt that. As far as proving it the odds are certainly slow especially if God won't come out from behind his cloud. However as far as odds go simply that something could be correct every explanation ever has just as much chance, mainly because we don't know until we are dead.


Would it make your existence "more expensive" if you got the time-scale right? The oldest fossils are thought to be 3 to 4 billion years old.

I wasn't going for accuracy persay, it was for literary effect. Million is a more recognizable number than billion. But if it makes you feel better I can change it.


More to the point, why should the natural processes that led to life (and ultimately you) have any bearing on the value you place on your existence?

There is something is a little unervering about being nothing more than a random roll of the die. Even though I know there is just as much of a chance that I could not have been born, it's not something you really like to think about.

Not to mention it's also a little depressing to think of yourself as little more than 4 dollars worth of amino acids and minerals. Humans have tremendous egos, being a science experiment rubs us the wrong way.


It seems to me that the fact that I exist is sufficient foundation to value myself...without regard to how I came into existence. I am important to myself and to such other humans that may concern themselves with my fate...who cares what others think?

Speaking strictly from my own point of view, of course I value myself. However speaking from an observant point of view, if the current theories hold true, I'm not all that relevant, I plan to make an impact on teh world someday, but looking back on it I haven't been all that necassary to the world, and neither has anyone else.



But they have a great many theories that are 90% or more likely to be true; theories that have accumulated a great deal of evidence in their support and no evidence against them has turned up. This is the kind of "practical certainty" that science does best.

It seems to be the only kind of certainty that humans can attain.

Very true. However it lacks the security of blind faith. No matter what is proven against the bible, there is not a single solitary way that a christian will abandon their faith.

However if someone were to refute one of your precious theories, then we need to look for something else. Granted holding onto something that has been discredited verges on idiocy, it is comforting to people.

Also Simply because no evidence has yet to show up disproving it, does not mean that it wont. You can never ever be absolutely sure with science. You can have a good idea, but it's impossible to be 100% absolute. Simply because there is always teh chance it could be disproven.


How can you say this? Science offers an enormous amount of evidence; religion offers none at all!

Once again, literary effect. Though to cover it, I meant concrete evidence, unrefutable evidence. Evidence that will garauntee that this theory will last forever. The possibility of something coming along disproving a scientific theory is always out there.


What are the "advantages" in religious "arguments"? Your own paper exposes religious "arguments" as nothing more than vigorous assertions unsupported by evidence.

Sciences Advantages: Explaining how the physical world works

Religious Advantages: Explaining theoretical and phlosophical principles. not to say that religion is teh only way to explain it, but it can help, i suppose.

Humans are naturally inquisitive. Of course everything isn't phsical, and everything is theoretical. It takes both.


And, as noted above, science does acknowledge its own uncertainties. It is well aware of its "flaws" and ceaselessly tries to correct them.

What more could one ask?

Definite answers perhaps. Also while science it's self is aware of these flaws, the average atheist isn't.


What really drives the superstitious up the wall is not that science tries to "tear religion's head off", but rather that science ignores religion as irrelevant.

That's what the religious really mean when they talk about the "arrogance of science".

That is a very good point and I think I'll include it in my revisions

Lardlad95
13th April 2004, 21:51
This is if you are a Christian. Now what if you are a Christian, and say the truth actually is that there is a nietherworld you go to in the afterlife; where you spend eternity with biengs that died on other planets? And you actually never get a chance to meet your loved ones again. Makes for a depressing eternity doesn't it? See? It's not a win/win situation for the Christian. :P Honestly, this is written from a Christian persective or bias of truth.

You are joking right? Right after I said that i went on to prove why pascal's wager was bullshit. I just said the same thing you did. Read he rest of what i wrote....

There is a problem with this theory of course, that being the fact that Pascal only dealt with a Judeo-Christian god. What if however, we all got it wrong it turned out the ancient Greeks had it right the whole time? Zeus would be mighty angry that so many people worshipped some non-existent Middle Eastern god instead of him and the others in the Greek Pantheon. Thus we see that Pascal’s wager suggests believing in God just in case, but it never specifies which god. Apparently the wager takes place on a bigger game board than he anticipated. Because there are so many religions it gets hard to prove which religion is actually correct. So which religion is the correct one? In there lies the problem. You pick the wrong religion and that lands you in the fiery pits of tartarus. Sure one religion could be right, but it’s far too hard to simply select one and hope it’s correct.

SEE!!!! I never said that pascal was right, to the contrary I said hat he was wrong. Not to mention all of part one was about exposing religion as nothing more than baseles assertions.


The problem is the same with religion, any religion. Religions also fail to realize the limitations of their so-called knowledge. They can't accept thatr there might be many gods, or (in Christianity's case) that the creator of the universe isn't a white-skinned male human-being, who actually gives a shit whether or not you aknowledge him.

....You didn't read my paper did you? Because I think if you went back and read it you would realize that I no way shape or form supported christianity or supported religion at all.

And I apologize if I sound angry, but I'm not really clear on how you took my essay.

El Tipo
13th April 2004, 22:21
Please tell me a fact: "Is there a end to space?" because, honestly this book tells me "there has to be" and the other "its endless".. Im bit confused.

Better debate than this my dear friends.

Lardlad95
14th April 2004, 02:59
Originally posted by El [email protected] 13 2004, 10:21 PM
Please tell me a fact: "Is there a end to space?" because, honestly this book tells me "there has to be" and the other "its endless".. Im bit confused.

Better debate than this my dear friends.
...please stick to the topic at hand, i worked hard on this paper.

redstar2000
14th April 2004, 04:48
How remaining civil towards the religious, the believers, and the theologians betters you is simple. Mainly because you won't be closed minded, something usually associated with the religious themselves.

Civility is one thing; open-mindedness is quite another.

That is, I could be "polite" and still be utterly close-minded regarding superstition.

The reason that I'm not polite regarding superstition is that I regard it as an enemy of communist revolution...on the same level as racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

And a worse enemy at that! Why? Because in struggle against racism, etc., we've already seized the "moral high ground"...those who retain those reactionary ideas are "on the defensive" and "in retreat".

But they have one "fortress" that they can count on...religion. It offers shelter and support for every reactionary idea.

Consider: if someone holds a reactionary idea and publicly advocates it, there will be statements of public outrage and many counter-attacks.

But if they say their reactionary idea is "part of their religion", the counter-attacks become muted and defensive. One cannot be seen to "directly challenge a religious belief" -- that would be "intolerant" and "bigoted".

I don't mind in the least being labeled "intolerant"...and thus I see no reason to pretend to be "polite" to those who adhere to and advocate reactionary ideas.

As to "open-mindedness", how did that come to be considered a "virtue" in and of itself?

Why exactly should one not be "close-minded" to nonsense?

Prior to 1750 or so, almost everything that people thought they "knew" was nonsense. Since then, some sense has entered the world...though not as much as people might think.

I think it would be a "very good thing" if more people would open their minds to sensible ideas and close their minds to nonsense.

Of course, it's not always easy to tell the difference...but since there is still much more nonsense than sense in the world today, a rigorous skepticism is appropriate.

In particular, supernatural "explanations" of anything are clearly ruled out of consideration by any rational person. As all such theories have already proven to be nonsense, it's ridiculous to expend any further mental energy on considering any new ones.

There are times when one should be "close-minded".


Atheists assuming that the only type of "proof" is scientific proof...

What other kind is there?

Revelation?

"And a voice spake unto me from the heavens, saying, Go forth and slay that spawn of Satan who calleth himself Lardlad95."

Is that what you had in mind? :lol:


Are you justifying bad behavior with horrendous behavior?

Yes. :P


Who knows, perhaps they could finally present you with the evidence you need to finally accept Jesus as your savior.

Not a chance! They've had 2,000 years to come up with something, anything, that made any kind of sense.

A losing streak that long is a pretty definitive refutation.


I didn't know there was a single test [of rational thinking]....care to let me borrow a practice test? Or perhaps you could tell me some of the questions.

Does the supernatural exist?

Does it interact with the real world?

Do elves exist?

Unicorns?

Gods?

Devils?

Angels?

Ghosts?

Vampires?

Witches?

Does magic work?

Are "flying saucers" really visitors from the stars?

Etc., etc., etc.

A positive answer to any of those questions reveals a serious breakdown in rational thinking...a disconnection from the real world that can, and often does, end in catastrophe.

Such people certainly possess the capacity for rational thought...but, in a crucial way, appear to have lost the ability to utilize it.

What we tend to regard as "harmless delusions" can, in the appropriate circumstances, result in monstrous horrors.

No one laughed when the Grand Inquisitor came to town...and those who could leave did so.


Problem is the average person is arrogant.

I don't know. An average person "raised in the faith" might appear arrogant about the "truth" of that faith's dogmas...but is that the person or the faith speaking?

"There can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church" says the Baltimore Catachism...which is still, I think, taught to millions of Catholic school-kids.

Can we, in fairness, blame the kids for being "arrogant"?


Yet both sides wish to believe that they are 100% right.

Yes, science and superstition are mutually exclusive ways of looking at reality. It's strictly an "either/or" choice.

Many people constantly try to weasel on this, saying something like "I'll be scientific in my real world activities but I'll pay my respects to the supernatural on appropriate occasions".

If we measured atheism by the number of people who act "as if" they were atheists in their daily lives, atheism would be the majority view in all of the advanced capitalist countries.

But, alas, ideas trail behind material reality by a good deal sometimes.


If I view premarital sex as wrong, it doesn't matter that science can prove that relatively nothing can go wrong with safe premarital sex, I'm still going to be of the opinion that you should wait for marriage.

Science will tell you what will happen if you try to implement your moral view as social policy.

Firstly, young people will have sex anyway unless you impose draconian segregation of the sexes...and even that won't always work.

Secondly, young people will likely be ignorant of the consequences of sex...so you will have many additional unwanted pregnancies, forced marriages, etc.

Thirdly, young men will seek sexual release from prostitutes...who, in turn, will be recruited from "fallen women" who were caught having pre-marital sex.

Fourthly, since only females can show visible evidence of "unauthorized sex" (by becoming pregnant), your moral code will be more rigorously applied to women...resulting in their general subjection to male authority and control.

And finally, the repressive efforts necessary to enforce your code will "seep" into other areas of social policy...resulting in a quasi-despotism and possibly even outright fascism.

I think most sociologists would agree with me on these observations...and sociology is only barely a science (thanks to Marx).


...if you can never get a hold on the absolute truth, then how can you fault someone for believing in a god?

Well, because it's an absolute lie, for one thing.

One thing about these discussions is that it's always assumed that most people "require" some sort of "absolute truths" in order to live -- and if science can't provide them, then religion will.

I question that assumption. I think people have been told that "absolute truths" are "necessary" in order that religion might step forward to "fulfill that need".

I don't think it's a real need at all. Approximate truths that actually are true are superior to "absolute truths" that are obviously false.


The average person wants to feel secure, which is why they believe that their personal view on the world is 100% correct.

Again, this is speculative. No one, granted, wishes to feel insecure...still, any view of things which breaks down "in the crunch" is hardly going to strengthen "security".

And religion always does break down; it has nothing to say when bad things happen to the faithful except mumbles about "the mysterious ways of the Lord", etc., or sly insinuations that "you're being punished for your sins".

When you stop and think about it, it's really only the immense weight of social tradition that stops every clergyman from being instantly lynched when they utter this kind of crap to the bereaved.


People who believe that science is the ultimate answer are arrogant.

I don't know what you mean by "ultimate". Science provides the only answers that we can rely on.


There is something is a little unnerving about being nothing more than a random roll of the die.

Well, if you say so. It doesn't bother me.


Not to mention it's also a little depressing to think of yourself as little more than 4 dollars worth of amino acids and minerals.

Again, it doesn't bother me. Bottles of chemicals on a shelf can't do what I can do...think rationally and accurately.


...if the current theories hold true, I'm not all that relevant. I plan to make an impact on the world someday, but looking back on it, I haven't been all that necessary to the world, and neither has anyone else.

If I may offer a suggestion here, I think you (and all humans) should "do the best we can" and let future historians concern themselves with your "impact", if any.

The important thing is to live...to take part in the "great struggles" of our age as best we can. Even at the ends of our lives, it's usually impossible to say what difference we really made; many once "great men" are now utterly forgotten.

No matter what you accomplish or how celebrated you become, you too will be, someday, forgotten. Time is relentless and someday even the great pyramids will be dust.

"Immortal fame" is as empty as the "immortal gods".


No matter what is proven against the bible, there is not a single solitary way that a Christian will abandon their faith.

Not true. There are quite a few ex-Christians on this board; I think there are some ex-Muslims as well.

I suppose you could say that it's not intellectual criticism of religion by itself that causes people to abandon religion; often real-world events play an important role.

But I suspect that people "quietly" abandon religion all the time. They don't call a press conference or issue a manifesto...they just walk away and never look back.


However if someone were to refute one of your precious theories, then we need to look for something else.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? My theories aren't "precious". If one of them can be shown to be wrong, then I have no problem at all dumping it...especially if a better theory is readily available.

A theory is a tool...you use it to explain things and plan actions. If I can find a better tool, why should I hang onto an old and less useful one?

People who fall in love with their theories are like people who fall in love with their possessions.

As someone said: "You should not love things that can't love you back."

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
14th April 2004, 20:35
On the contrary, I can't think of any scientist who has written on this subject who has not "admitted" this "weakness".

There appears to be, thus far, no way to reason from what is in nature to what should be in human relations.

What science can do is tell you (in considerable detail) what the consequences of a particular choice in moral values will be.

Chomsky actually argues, alongside Hume, that, like generative grammar, morality is a genetic trait of human nature. I disagree, but…


While science explains things, it rarely does so in a way that the majority (or even a large minority) of people understand.

Sagan said that 95% of all Americans (and people) are scientifically illiterate.


Does the supernatural exist?

Does it interact with the real world?

Do elves exist?

Unicorns?

Gods?

Devils?

Angels?

Ghosts?

Vampires?

Witches?

Does magic work?

Are "flying saucers" really visitors from the stars?

Etc., etc., etc.

Calm down, damn.

redstar2000
15th April 2004, 00:28
Sagan said that 95% of all Americans (and people) are scientifically illiterate.

I don't know if it's that bad, but it is pretty bad.

Still, I think you would find a majority, at least in the advanced capitalist countries, who would "look for" a scientific explanation of some real-world phenomenon rather than jump to a "supernatural" conclusion.

As in the example I gave: most people may not understand the physics of air travel, but they know it's not because "angels" are holding the planes up in the air.

One could say that this is also a kind of "faith"...but that would be misleading. It's not really "faith" if it actually works.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

apathy maybe
15th April 2004, 02:14
redstar2000, do you have or have you had a religion? do you have or have you had a world encompassing philosophical viewpoint? These two things can co-exist and not only that can be one and the same thing.

I have a friend that was brought up Roman Catholic. He lost the faith by basically walk[ing] away and never look[ing] back. However, he still has a philosophical world-view that includes, not using drugs often or excessively (he is also an atheist). I also was brought up Roman Catholic. I too lost the faith; gradually I just didn't see the point. But I still believe in God (as a programmer :)), I still think that abortion is wrong ('cause life begins at conception). Yet are either of these two world-views religions? Are they somehow wrong? Neither, of us tries to convert other people (much, we have debates), and we both respect other people's views (including thinking that freedom of religion is an essential part of society).
Would you prefer people like us who have a moral code that is well thought out (along with the world-view that it comes from), or people with out one that are only atheists because their parents were and didn't tell them about God.

elijahcraig
15th April 2004, 04:23
I don't know if it's that bad, but it is pretty bad.

Still, I think you would find a majority, at least in the advanced capitalist countries, who would "look for" a scientific explanation of some real-world phenomenon rather than jump to a "supernatural" conclusion.

In polls done on evolution (for an example), 10% believed in Evolution without “divine”…whatever, 10% believed in Evolution with God “starting it off,” and 50% believe the world was created 6000 years ago. The other percentage “didn’t know.”


As in the example I gave: most people may not understand the physics of air travel, but they know it's not because "angels" are holding the planes up in the air.

You’d be surprised what stupid things people attempt to “put into” the “physics of air travel” I suspect. Most “religious people” attempt to put some “supernatural” behind the rational explanation.

I think this occurs with all belief as science explains more; it has been the case of all religions to gradually become more watered-down as rationalism took over the scene. From Aquinas on for the most part. Augustine even attempted to put neoPlatonism into it in some form. (For Christianity, at least) The same happens to all religions, Judaism or whatever.

Walter Kaufmann (in “Faith of a Heretic” in Harper’s Magazine) some years back, noted that he was at one time an “Orthodox” Jew, who observed all the eccentricities of the faith. As he gradually noticed this was too much to restrain (in terms of observing the 600 or so laws, etc.) he left the religion. He could have took up the more “Westernized” forms of Judaism—but he considered them stale and conformist. In other words, “watered down.”

People will attempt to hold onto their irrational faiths as long as they can as they come to face the truth that the illusion they want to believe in is not true, their psychological need for that illusion is also unmasked with science, and that the existence without the illusions is quite possibly going to break them down mentally. Science, as I've said before, is the new god to replace old illusions with new realities. These realities are cold and impersonal for the most part. And that is mainly the reason why people attempt to hold onto their illusions against the cold fact of reality.


However, he still has a philosophical world-view that includes, not using drugs often or excessively (he is also an atheist). I also was brought up Roman Catholic. I too lost the faith; gradually I just didn't see the point. But I still believe in God (as a programmer ), I still think that abortion is wrong ('cause life begins at conception). Yet are either of these two world-views religions? Are they somehow wrong? Neither, of us tries to convert other people (much, we have debates), and we both respect other people's views (including thinking that freedom of religion is an essential part of society).

Your “rights to freedom” are purely idiotic and fanciful—you observe the moral code of a society and conform to its standards.

You are a participant in “watered down” religion.

redstar2000
15th April 2004, 14:40
redstar2000, do you have or have you had a religion?

No to both questions. At the age of five or six, I put the "god hypothesis" to a real-world test: I prayed that some event would not take place (I no longer remember just what I was afraid of). The event nevertheless took place, and I concluded that "god" was just another lie that grown-ups tell kids.

By the age of seven and eight, I was reading "science books for kids" and found them fascinating...here were grown-ups who didn't lie to kids.

My defense of rational thought in general and science in particular has very deep roots.


Do you have or have you had a world encompassing philosophical viewpoint?

Well, I suppose my personal version of Marxism would come closest to meeting that description...I find that historical materialism is amazingly useful in understanding all sorts of different kinds of problems.


Yet are either of these two world-views religions? Are they somehow wrong?

I think that when people enter the "left", they often bring "scraps and tatters" of their old "world-views" with them.

A decision not to over-indulge in drugs is just plain common sense; it took me years to learn how to drink alcohol sensibly, get the "buzz", and yet avoid hangovers.

"God" as "programmer" is just a late variant on the old "Newtonian God" as "first cause".

It is, as elijah suggested, an extremely "watered-down" religious view...as it has no consequences and makes no demands on the believer. You can freely act "as if" there was no "god" at all. It's a way to be a "practical atheist" without taking any flak from real believers.

Your view on abortion is more a consequence of patriarchy in general than a specifically religious view. In the "patriarchal paradigm", the principle purpose of women is to bear and raise men's (male) children...anything that interferes with this "purpose" is "unnatural", "wrong", and "evil".


Would you prefer people like us who have a moral code that is well thought out (along with the world-view that it comes from), or people without one that are only atheists because their parents were and didn't tell them about God.

I would prefer the latter. The reason for that preference is that mental energy consumed in repudiating the gods of institutional religions is better spent on other matters. Someone who is raised with no knowledge of religion can devote their mental energies to real-world questions with possibly fruitful results.

This is not to suggest that I don't respect you and your friend for abandoning the Catholic Church; it's a tough old leech and difficult to completely escape.

How difficult is suggested by your belief that religious views "deserve respect" -- even when they "lose" a believer, they hope that s/he will not become an active opponent and do their best to make sure that doesn't happen.

Perhaps the "final step" for you and your friend is to realize that they do not deserve "respect" but, on the contrary, hated and contempt are their "rightful portions".

Over the entire sordid and bloody history of class society, religion has happily joined with all ruling classes to exploit and terrorize the vast majority of humanity.

They are not worthy of "respect"...or even forgiveness.


People will attempt to hold onto their irrational faiths as long as they can. As they come to face the truth that the illusion they want to believe in is not true, their psychological need for that illusion is also unmasked with science, and that the existence without the illusions is quite possibly going to break them down mentally.

That seems overly pessimistic. I think "mental breakdowns" as a consequence of the "loss of faith" are statistically pretty rare.

I agree that many people do cling quite tenaciously to religious illusions as long as they "can"...it often takes a combination of atheist criticism and real-world events to break the grip of those illusions. I've read that an enormous number of religious Jews became secularized by the holocaust; a "god" that permitted the holocaust to take place was "unworthy of worship".

But we have quite a few ex-believers on this board; once they got old enough to read the serious criticisms of religious belief, they rejected it as stupid and absurd.

They did not suffer "mental breakdowns" as a result.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
15th April 2004, 19:53
Your view on abortion is more a consequence of patriarchy in general than a specifically religious view. In the "patriarchal paradigm", the principle purpose of women is to bear and raise men's (male) children...anything that interferes with this "purpose" is "unnatural", "wrong", and "evil".

Is it possible to exist without one sex dominating? I don’t think it can, just for the record.


That seems overly pessimistic. I think "mental breakdowns" as a consequence of the "loss of faith" are statistically pretty rare.

I think those who come to the conclusion that their faith is false usually find a new god to latch onto. Thus avoiding a “mental breakdown” (perhaps a bad choice of words for what I was attempting to express).

apathy maybe
16th April 2004, 02:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:40 AM
.
.
.

Your view on abortion is more a consequence of patriarchy in general than a specifically religious view. In the "patriarchal paradigm", the principle purpose of women is to bear and raise men's (male) children...anything that interferes with this "purpose" is "unnatural", "wrong", and "evil".


Would you prefer people like us who have a moral code that is well thought out (along with the world-view that it comes from), or people without one that are only atheists because their parents were and didn't tell them about God.

I would prefer the latter. The reason for that preference is that mental energy consumed in repudiating the gods of institutional religions is better spent on other matters. Someone who is raised with no knowledge of religion can devote their mental energies to real-world questions with possibly fruitful results.
.
.
.
Your wrong. I feel that life begins at conception. that has nothing to do with any patriarchy. I am quite happy for both men and women to prevent pregnacy in anyway they want. But if the women gets pregnent, it is a human and I don't like the idea of killing people. It is a moral position that a human at one day is equal to a human at one year or 100 years.

As to the second point.
You prefere people not to think at all, to those who have thought? What about those who are raised athiest (militent athiest even), and then start to believe in God (even with out the other 'trappings')?

I think that anyone who spends time thinking about moralality, from whichever initial position, and reading etc. Anyone who does this has more respect from me then one who just accepts the position given to them. It is the same with politiccs; people who think that the current system is great, without thinking about it, are not deserving of nearly the respect reserved for those who have thought long and hard and still think that the current system is great. Even if I disagree with both of them.

redstar2000
16th April 2004, 03:48
I think those who come to the conclusion that their faith is false usually find a new god to latch onto.

This view suggests that there is some kind of "religious instinct" or "predisposition" to "believe" in supernatural "entities".

If a human is deprived of one set of such beliefs, then s/he will seek out another. If no such set of beliefs exist, s/he will invent them.

The problem with that view is that non-believers in the supernatural become inexplicable. If there's a "religion gene" that is "universal", then how could atheism be possible?

Is there a growing "mutation"...a population of humans lacking the "religion gene" and who are reproducing faster than believing humans?

Does atheism (non-functioning religion gene) confer an evolutionary advantage?

I think a historical materialist explanation makes much more sense.

Humans invented the supernatural to "explain" earthly phenomena that they did not really understand. As real understanding of earthly phenomena grows, the supernatural retreats.

In fact, thoughtful believers now take their last stand at the origins of the universe itself. It's the only place left where "God" "might have been present". If and when a completely materialist explanation for the "big bang" is discovered, the ballgame is over.

Most believers are not "thoughtful" of course; in fact, the gross ignorance of believers has often been shown on this board.

When they "learn better" (possibly from the atheists on this board), I rather doubt that they go looking for a new faith...what would be the point? Once you've learned from one example how to think rationally about religion, you have the tools to criticize any religion.


You prefer people not to think at all, to those who have thought?

That's not what I said. I prefer that people think about real things.

To take an extreme hypothetical example: suppose some thoughtful and conscientious (not to say obsessive) person wished to learn which religion was "really true". He starts with the earliest recorded religions and carefully examines each and every one of the thousands of religions that humanity has invented...and suffered under. Year after year he labors, studying and rejecting each of them. Finally, he finishes the task...discovering that none of them are true in the least.

He dies a confirmed atheist...at the age of 114!

I think there are better ways to live one's life...and use one's brain.


What about those who are raised atheist (militant atheist even), and then start to believe in God (even with out the other 'trappings')?

Cynic that I am, I suspect anyone who was "raised atheist" and who then becomes a believer is up to no good...probably planning a career of "fleecing the suckers".

There's money to be made in "being saved".


I think that anyone who spends time thinking about morality, from whichever initial position, and reading etc....has more respect from me then one who just accepts the position given to them.

Yes, we do respect those who make an effort to think more than those who don't.

But you did ask me which I preferred...and my answer remains the same. I prefer people who are atheist without bothering to think any further about the matter...because it is a waste of time and energy.

Once religion is behind us, we will be able to concentrate more on real problems.

This will be, I strongly suspect, a tremendous improvement over the present situation.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
16th April 2004, 20:18
This view suggests that there is some kind of "religious instinct" or "predisposition" to "believe" in supernatural "entities.”


If a human is deprived of one set of such beliefs, then s/he will seek out another. If no such set of beliefs exist, s/he will invent them.

The problem with that view is that non-believers in the supernatural become inexplicable. If there's a "religion gene" that is "universal", then how could atheism be possible?

I view science as the New God. No “religion gene”; a gene which needs to have illusion.



Humans invented the supernatural to "explain" earthly phenomena that they did not really understand. As real understanding of earthly phenomena grows, the supernatural retreats.

In fact, thoughtful believers now take their last stand at the origins of the universe itself. It's the only place left where "God" "might have been present". If and when a completely materialist explanation for the "big bang" is discovered, the ballgame is over.

This was Frazer’s view. Later, several different comparativists have given this view a goods signs, while adding on other views (Campbell, Staal, Jung, etc).

redstar2000
17th April 2004, 01:19
I view science as the New God. No “religion gene”; a gene which needs to have illusion.

Most curious for (at least) two reasons.

The attributes of religion are missing from science. Where are the prayers and ceremonies? The injunctions to worship? The reassuring bromides? The miracles? The "crusades" against the unbelievers? The atrocities?

Secondly, how is science a useful substitute for religious illusions when science actually works?

"Illusion" has a real-world meaning, you know, as does the phrase "New God". You can't just paste them on anything you dislike and thereby "prove" it so.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

apathy maybe
19th April 2004, 04:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:19 PM

I view science as the New God. No “religion gene”; a gene which needs to have illusion.

Most curious for (at least) two reasons.

The attributes of religion are missing from science. Where are the prayers and ceremonies? The injunctions to worship? The reassuring bromides? The miracles? The "crusades" against the unbelievers? The atrocities?

Secondly, how is science a useful substitute for religious illusions when science actually works?

"Illusion" has a real-world meaning, you know, as does the phrase "New God". You can't just paste them on anything you dislike and thereby "prove" it so.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
I was actually thinking this my self earlier. (About science being the "new religion".) The case I was thinking of was that redstar2000 is against all religion, but he also disbelieves much scientific evidence presented for such things as global warming.

"Where are the prayers and ceremonies?"
They do not exist in all religions; in the "new religion", science, they exist in the strict adherence to methods of study. All things must be reproducible. If it can't be repeated under controlled conditions, it isn't science.
"The injunctions to worship?"
Again does not exist in all religions. But in science I think that it would be the injunction to believe, even when you can't prove otherwise and do not have the ability to even start to prove otherwise. I 'believe' that nothing can travel faster then light, but I can't prove it or even start to understand the maths behind the claim.
"The reassuring bromides?"
I don't understand this one.
"The miracles?"
Haven't you seen the one where the person was brought back to life? Or cured of a dreadful disease? Or had a new hand grafted on?
"The 'crusades' [why the quote marks?] against the unbelievers?"
Again not all religions have this. Sure the big 3 monotheistic religions do, but point to the Australian Aboriginal dreamtime crusade/s. In schools across the USA there is a battle between Christianity and Science about where life came from.
"The atrocities?"
The NAZI "doctors", Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the list goes on.

You will of course claim that the bad things happened because of capitalism not science per say. I will say that all the bad things that you can bring up about religion happened 'cause of capitalism (or what ever economic system was present at the time) not religion per say.


Sure science 'works', that is it's big claim to fame. The only reason that it is still around. Or so you'ld hope. But still a religion based on logic not faith, whoever came up with that idea was onto a good thing. And still people are being 'fleeced' by science (SETI anyone?)

Lardlad95
21st April 2004, 22:30
First of all sorry for the late reply, I replied before but it froe and I never saved it


Civility is one thing; open-mindedness is quite another.


Civility + Closed Mindedness= Being Patronizing



The reason that I'm not polite regarding superstition is that I regard it as an enemy of communist revolution...on the same level as racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

Is it? Spiritual beliefs within themselves aren't the problem. It's dogmatism and tradition that are the problem. Religion is not god, and god is not religion.




And a worse enemy at that! Why? Because in struggle against racism, etc., we've already seized the "moral high ground"...those who retain those reactionary ideas are "on the defensive" and "in retreat".

I don't know the Klan is on the rebound..I mean who wouldn't want to join the klan? You get an orientation video and a membership card....Sign up TODAY :D


But they have one "fortress" that they can count on...religion. It offers shelter and support for every reactionary idea.

Consider: if someone holds a reactionary idea and publicly advocates it, there will be statements of public outrage and many counter-attacks.

But if they say their reactionary idea is "part of their religion", the counter-attacks become muted and defensive. One cannot be seen to "directly challenge a religious belief" -- that would be "intolerant" and "bigoted".

I have a friend named Alton who said something very interesting. He said, "Yes I believe in God, but I also have common sense." This means that while he had spiritual beliefs he wasn't going to believe something simply because the bible said that, or a reverand said so. Should a religous person say something reactionary I think Alton would use his better judgement to figure teh situation out rather than saying religion has decided the matter.

The problem isn't spirtuality, the problem is most people don't think for themselves.


As to "open-mindedness", how did that come to be considered a "virtue" in and of itself?

Remember when God created the universe? He decided it was a good idea to be openminded like right after he invented fish...thats how it came into being but nobody listens to god.


Why exactly should one not be "close-minded" to nonsense?

What is and is not nonsesne is an opinion. Up until a few years ago Socialism and communism were nonsensical pipe dreams to me. However I was open minded enough to listen and hear what socialism was really about. I was wrong, just as you COULD/MIGHT be




Of course, it's not always easy to tell the difference...but since there is still much more nonsense than sense in the world today, a rigorous skepticism is appropriate.

INteresting you say that. Everyone in my biology class is skeptical....of science. Skepticism in and of it's self does not mean skeptical of religion. It just means you are skeptical. Problem is not everyone is skeptical of the same things.


In particular, supernatural "explanations" of anything are clearly ruled out of consideration by any rational person. As all such theories have already proven to be nonsense, it's ridiculous to expend any further mental energy on considering any new ones.

I wouldn't say disproven so much as disregarded and ignored.



There are times when one should be "close-minded".

If atheists are right in their beliefs there is only one time when someone should be closed minded, and thats when you're dead.



What other kind is there?

Revelation?

Revelation? Perhaps? Theres philosophical proof, logical proof. Basically proof is anything that is used to prove something to someone. If I use a glass of ice tea to prove to you that my pillow speaks protugese then that glass of tea is proof. Is that example absurd? Of course...but if I used it to prove my point to you then it is in fact proof. If I can convince you that god exits by re****ing a near death experience i had, then the experience is proof. As long as I proved it to you then what ever I used to prove it is proof.


"And a voice spake unto me from the heavens, saying, Go forth and slay that spawn of Satan who calleth himself Lardlad95."

Oh shit they're on to me *knocks over pitcher of water and runs*




Yes. :P

As long as we are all on the same page.


Not a chance! They've had 2,000 years to come up with something, anything, that made any kind of sense.

A losing streak that long is a pretty definitive refutation

The red sox have a losing streak that long, do you count them out of the world series? Wait...bad example.

The point is that simple because they haven't proven it that doesn't mean they can't. It takes a while before teh technology or resources needed to prove something come along. Darwin couldn't prove that evolutionary changes happen randomly, a key part of natural selection, because genetic pointshift mutations hadn't been discovered yet. but once they were they helped prove darwin right. Maybe the resources needed to prove the existence of god haven't come along yet.


Does the supernatural exist?

Yes, but it's hard to ind, don't try and take the street. Get on the highway and follow I-65 south for 14 miles, take exit 56 and go down Raven BLVD. for 9 miles, take a left onto Baltimore Avenue and stop at the #45 bus stop, there will be an old man there by the name of Smitty, he'll help you out from there.


Does it interact with the real world?

Not ever since the real world slept with the supernatural world's woman


Do elves exist?

Pfft...everyone knows elves went extinct years ago...


Unicorns?

You un-pc bigot, they preffer to be called Mystical Horned Americans


Gods?

Only on Monday and wednsdays. On tuesday and thursday they moonlight as telemarketers. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday they rest because of teh different sabbaths.


Devils?

Was that a black joke?



Angels?

...Of course, they just won the world series like 2 years ago, how could they do that if they didn't exist?



Ghosts?

They pretend not to, but if you look hard enough you'll see them. They try to pass of as white to get equal treatment


Vampires?

Yeah, I saw them on the discovery channel...basically they are just humans who like blood


Witches?

Don't you watch mad mad house? That one witch is sexy as hell


Does magic work?

Only on days that end in "y"


Are "flying saucers" really visitors from the stars?

No silly, nothing can live on a star, they are huge burning balls of plasma (the fourth stage of matter, not the blood type of plasma).


A positive answer to any of those questions reveals a serious breakdown in rational thinking...a disconnection from the real world that can, and often does, end in catastrophe.

*counts answers*....damn it...can I take a retest?


No one laughed when the Grand Inquisitor came to town...and those who could leave did so.

I'm sure some one laughed, but only because the torture had driven them insane


I don't know. An average person "raised in the faith" might appear arrogant about the "truth" of that faith's dogmas...but is that the person or the faith speaking?

It's teh person speaking, tehy simply happen to believe the faith


Yes, science and superstition are mutually exclusive ways of looking at reality. It's strictly an "either/or" choice.

Many people constantly try to weasel on this, saying something like "I'll be scientific in my real world activities but I'll pay my respects to the supernatural on appropriate occasions".

If we measured atheism by the number of people who act "as if" they were atheists in their daily lives, atheism would be the majority view in all of the advanced capitalist countries.

But, alas, ideas trail behind material reality by a good deal sometimes.

I never said they were mutually exclusive, I simply said people on both sides disregard the otehr as untrue. I don't believe htey are mutually exclusive, atleast not on all points. Though I do agree that more people than one would think are atheist in practice and religious in their claims


I think most sociologists would agree with me on these observations...and sociology is only barely a science (thanks to Marx).

Wow you've done what wellness class, std videos, and the church have never been able to do. You've actualley made me not want to have sex. Why? Because what you just said was incredibly boring.


I don't think it's a real need at all. Approximate truths that actually are true are superior to "absolute truths" that are obviously false.

Obviously false? Hmmm. More like "really farfetched". There is no way to prove there isn't a god. However it isn't likely that a man walkd on water or parted a sea, or turned water into wine. Thats where common sense kicks in, something people rarely utilize. I don't see anything obviously false about the existence of god, I just see it as an explanation that could be true, but isn't backed up very well, if at all.


When you stop and think about it, it's really only the immense weight of social tradition that stops every clergyman from being instantly lynched when they utter this kind of crap to the bereaved.

Tradition is a factor, but I honestly doubt that everyone is there simply because they are used to it. It's been ingrained in them so much that they actually believe it. Also as far as teh "mysterious ways" thing, obviously that convinces people and they believe it. So when it comes down to it, the religious buy their own arguements for why god didn't get riid of their cancer. Whats worse than that is that when someone's cancer does go into remission it only strengthens their beliefs. So either way they are going to believe.


don't know what you mean by "ultimate". Science provides the only answers that we can rely on.

I wouldn't put that much stock into science. It can tell me a hll of alot of things. but I wouldn't rely on it for every single answer, especially not moral, emotional, or philosophical dillemas or situations.


Again, it doesn't bother me. Bottles of chemicals on a shelf can't do what I can do...think rationally and accurately.

...you obviously haven't seen the new viagra. It sleeps with your woman for you, then has an intimate conversation with her, all while making her a sandwich. Viagra has made you obsolete.


If I may offer a suggestion here, I think you (and all humans) should "do the best we can" and let future historians concern themselves with your "impact", if any.

Like the historians did with Marx? Fuck that, I"ma freeze myself, and come back in 1000 years and make damn sure i"m in those history books, the correct way.


No matter what you accomplish or how celebrated you become, you too will be, someday, forgotten. Time is relentless and someday even the great pyramids will be dust.

The fuck? I"m Aaron, won't no body forget about me, as long as there are humans my name and fame shall be remembered. Understand that...nucca!@!!!



"Immortal fame" is as empty as the "immortal gods".

I'ma get a tattoo of that


Not true. There are quite a few ex-Christians on this board; I think there are some ex-Muslims as well.

I suppose you could say that it's not intellectual criticism of religion by itself that causes people to abandon religion; often real-world events play an important role.

But I suspect that people "quietly" abandon religion all the time. They don't call a press conference or issue a manifesto...they just walk away and never look back.

The point my friend, is whether or not the death rate is higher than teh birth rate? Are there more people leaving the faith or being born and brought into it? I'm aware that people do leave, aloot of people. But there are also alot of people going into the faith and not just children, though nthose are teh most dangerous converts. I'm interested to see where the levels are at.


A theory is a tool...you use it to explain things and plan actions. If I can find a better tool, why should I hang onto an old and less useful one?

Looks good in pixels, but how does it work out in the real world?


As someone said: "You should not love things that can't love you back."

does that apply to women too?

Lardlad95
21st April 2004, 22:36
The attributes of religion are missing from science. Where are the prayers and ceremonies? The injunctions to worship? The reassuring bromides? The miracles? The "crusades" against the unbelievers? The atrocities?

OK, you just said yoursellf what the attributes of religions are. THis means they are totally seperate from spirtuality. So now I ask you, what is wrong with spirituality if it is seperate froma religion?

Lardlad95
21st April 2004, 22:48
No to both questions. At the age of five or six, I put the "god hypothesis" to a real-world test: I prayed that some event would not take place (I no longer remember just what I was afraid of). The event nevertheless took place, and I concluded that "god" was just another lie that grown-ups tell kids.

Honestly I'm not sure how that disproves god. If I were god I wouldn' have helped you out either. Why the fuck would I care about some little kids test to proove I exist? I'm god, I'm not self concious, i don't need you to believe in me. I run this shit....I"M RICH BIATCH *honk honk* © Chapelle Show



"God" as "programmer" is just a late variant on the old "Newtonian God" as "first cause".

It is, as elijah suggested, an extremely "watered-down" religious view...as it has no consequences and makes no demands on the believer. You can freely act "as if" there was no "god" at all. It's a way to be a "practical atheist" without taking any flak from real believers.

Deism is it's self a religion, and while I see why someone would say it's a watered down religious view. I'm sure there are many deists who would contest your statement. sure in deism you can act freely, but it isn't as if a deist simply ignores the existence of god while just asserting that he exists when asked. It's just that they don't buy into all the types of monotheistic religions that are running around.


Your view on abortion is more a consequence of patriarchy in general than a specifically religious view. In the "patriarchal paradigm", the principle purpose of women is to bear and raise men's (male) children...anything that interferes with this "purpose" is "unnatural", "wrong", and "evil".

Why is that true? I don't agree with kill fetuses...but thats simply because I"m against killing all together. I'm pro-choice because I can't make a woman's choice for her. But I don't think my personal view on abortion is due to the fact that I was raised to think women are here to have my kids. I'm simply against killing.



Also redstar in reading your post I got them impression that you'd be ok with athiestic brainwashing. If the parent simply doesn't tell the kid about religion thats one thing. but would you be ok with athiest parents telling their children that religion is evil and people who believe it are morons? Because thats just as bad, in my opinion, as someone telling kids to believe in god.

redstar2000
22nd April 2004, 02:15
...but would you be ok with atheist parents telling their children that religion is evil and people who believe it are morons?

That religion has been "evil" historically seems to me to be a simple statement of fact.

To say that people who believe it are "morons" would, I think, encourage a mistaken complacency and even a kind of elitism.

The people who run religion rackets are not "morons"...some of them have been quite intelligent (in the same way that some members of present and past ruling classes have been quite intelligent).

I think it better, if the subject comes up, to tell children that religious people are dangerous and to be avoided if possible. There's no telling what they will do if "God speaks to them".

Ideally, I would have children hear nothing of religion at all before the age of 12 or 13; then they might be exposed to an optional "introductory history of human superstitions" course.

The textbook would consist of a compilation of my posts on the subject. :lol:

But, that would be idealist. In fact, as soon as a kid hears about "god", s/he's going to start asking questions and you have to be prepared to answer them truthfully. Since kids like answers that are short and simple, you will have to generalize: "religions are made-up stories about reality" or "religious people like to hurt other people who don't believe their stories are true".

How much further detail you go into depends on the kid.


So now I ask you, what is wrong with spirituality if it is separate from a religion?

Not a thing. A privately held belief that happens to be wrong is socially harmless (except possibly to the believer).

But there does seem to be a "progression" involved here; the first thing that many people who think they have a "spiritual insight" want to do is start a new religion.

It's a seemingly irresistible temptation.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

elijahcraig
22nd April 2004, 21:31
The attributes of religion are missing from science. Where are the prayers and ceremonies?

Science has doctrine just like religion: procedure, system, etc.


The injunctions to worship?

Scientists worship the infallibility of reason to understand, and correct itself.


The reassuring bromides? The miracles?

Religion has no miracles, so I don’t know what you mean.


The "crusades" against the unbelievers?

Communism.


The atrocities?

Atom Bomb.


Secondly, how is science a useful substitute for religious illusions when science actually works?

Works? I don’t know what that means. How does it “work”? In relation to what?


That religion has been "evil" historically seems to me to be a simple statement of fact.

Religion is not innately bad; just as guns aren’t bad until they are in the hands of morons.


To say that people who believe it are "morons" would, I think, encourage a mistaken complacency and even a kind of elitism.

You ARE an elitist on this issue. So am I, being honest.


The people who run religion rackets are not "morons"...some of them have been quite intelligent (in the same way that some members of present and past ruling classes have been quite intelligent).

I think it better, if the subject comes up, to tell children that religious people are dangerous and to be avoided if possible. There's no telling what they will do if "God speaks to them".

James Joyce wouldn’t tell his children ANY beliefs whatsoever to “follow”. He didn’t deter their religious beliefs, either. He never baptized them, for instance. You can’t edge someone towards any belief of atheism or whatever.


Ideally, I would have children hear nothing of religion at all before the age of 12 or 13; then they might be exposed to an optional "introductory history of human superstitions" course.

That’s called brainwashing someone.

Lardlad95
7th May 2004, 01:51
That religion has been "evil" historically seems to me to be a simple statement of fact.

To say that people who believe it are "morons" would, I think, encourage a mistaken complacency and even a kind of elitism.

But you call those people morons now....you are being elitist.


The people who run religion rackets are not "morons"...some of them have been quite intelligent (in the same way that some members of present and past ruling classes have been quite intelligent).


Creflow Dollar and alot of the Popes would fall into such a category, however I doubt that everyone fits that mold.


I think it better, if the subject comes up, to tell children that religious people are dangerous and to be avoided if possible. There's no telling what they will do if "God speaks to them".

And this wont create elitism how?





Ideally, I would have children hear nothing of religion at all before the age of 12 or 13; then they might be exposed to an optional "introductory history of human superstitions" course.

The textbook would consist of a compilation of my posts on the subject. :lol:

I'm sure that would be productive....much in the same way that having Rush Limbaugh write socialist literature would be productive.




But, that would be idealist. In fact, as soon as a kid hears about "god", s/he's going to start asking questions and you have to be prepared to answer them truthfully. Since kids like answers that are short and simple, you will have to generalize: "religions are made-up stories about reality" or "religious people like to hurt other people who don't believe their stories are true".

How much further detail you go into depends on the kid.

God forbid you should present both sides to the child. Because Lord knows children can't make decisions for themselves when presented with both arguements. Seems to me you are just an atheist version of an overbearing religious parent.


Not a thing. A privately held belief that happens to be wrong is socially harmless (except possibly to the believer).

But there does seem to be a "progression" involved here; the first thing that many people who think they have a "spiritual insight" want to do is start a new religion.

It's a seemingly irresistible temptation.

How is a small cult socially harmful? Not the jim jones style cult, I'm simply reffering to a new religion

Lardlad95
7th May 2004, 01:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 09:31 PM

The attributes of religion are missing from science. Where are the prayers and ceremonies?

Science has doctrine just like religion: procedure, system, etc.


The injunctions to worship?

Scientists worship the infallibility of reason to understand, and correct itself.


The reassuring bromides? The miracles?

Religion has no miracles, so I don’t know what you mean.


The "crusades" against the unbelievers?

Communism.


The atrocities?

Atom Bomb.


Secondly, how is science a useful substitute for religious illusions when science actually works?

Works? I don’t know what that means. How does it “work”? In relation to what?


That religion has been "evil" historically seems to me to be a simple statement of fact.

Religion is not innately bad; just as guns aren’t bad until they are in the hands of morons.


To say that people who believe it are "morons" would, I think, encourage a mistaken complacency and even a kind of elitism.

You ARE an elitist on this issue. So am I, being honest.


The people who run religion rackets are not "morons"...some of them have been quite intelligent (in the same way that some members of present and past ruling classes have been quite intelligent).

I think it better, if the subject comes up, to tell children that religious people are dangerous and to be avoided if possible. There's no telling what they will do if "God speaks to them".

James Joyce wouldn’t tell his children ANY beliefs whatsoever to “follow”. He didn’t deter their religious beliefs, either. He never baptized them, for instance. You can’t edge someone towards any belief of atheism or whatever.


Ideally, I would have children hear nothing of religion at all before the age of 12 or 13; then they might be exposed to an optional "introductory history of human superstitions" course.

That’s called brainwashing someone.
*Applauds* wondeful post elijah

redstar2000
7th May 2004, 23:48
That’s called brainwashing someone.


God forbid you should present both sides to the child.

What you fellows seem to want is a "level playing field" on which science and superstition can "fight it out".

Why?

What gives superstition the "right" to even step on that playing field?

In what sense are the "ideas" of the superstitious "legitimate" and "worthy of consideration"?

And, while your at it, tell us which superstitions are "legitimate" and which are not...and on what grounds.

Do Christians and Aztecs and Muslims and Carthaginians and Jews and Nazis all qualify for "equal time"? Zeus and Isis and Wotan and Mithras and Shiva? Shall we study the "holy words" of Brigham Young, David Koresh, the Rev. Moon, and Jim Jones?

"Who are you" to decide which superstitions get to go into the playoffs against science and which do not?

Also, what about the secular irrationalists? Shouldn't they have a chance to be considered too?

Your "sense of fairness" would drown us all in nonsense.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Lardlad95
13th May 2004, 17:48
What you fellows seem to want is a "level playing field" on which science and superstition can "fight it out".

Why?

What gives superstition the "right" to even step on that playing field?

What gives it the right? The simple fact that it's someone's opinion. If there isn't an open market place of ideas then society becomes stagnate. If there was no exchange of ideas and opinion then we'd all think the exact same thing and we'd still be stuck under monarchies, the catholic church would be more powerful than every nation on earth, and we'd see nothing wrong with this.

All ideas have the right to be presented in civil debate.


In what sense are the "ideas" of the superstitious "legitimate" and "worthy of consideration"?

What makes something legitamate? Being legitamate and being true are two seperate things. AN arguement is legitamate if it can hold it's own in a debate, that doesn't make it true however. Obviously the people whoe subscribe to a religous idea have arguements that they can defend (to an extent) that doesn't mean however that what they are saying is true. But the arguement is legitamate non the less.


Do Christians and Aztecs and Muslims and Carthaginians and Jews and Nazis all qualify for "equal time"? Zeus and Isis and Wotan and Mithras and Shiva? Shall we study the "holy words" of Brigham Young, David Koresh, the Rev. Moon, and Jim Jones?

Well I'd study them, but only because I love to study religion anyway.

However they do qualify for equal time. If you exaimen them and there is some way they can be upheld then the arguement shouldn't be cast away so rashly.


"Who are you" to decide which superstitions get to go into the playoffs against science and which do not?

I'm not discriminating against any religion. For all I know the Ancient greeks could have been right, in which case I'm fucked for all eternity. If someone is there to present the arguement then it gets an equal shot.


Also, what about the secular irrationalists? Shouldn't they have a chance to be considered too?

Sure why not


Your "sense of fairness" would drown us all in nonsense.

And your unwaivering self rightousness will make the world boring and stagnate