This is classic!!!

[AC-Socialist]

What is the Commie Club?

The Commie Club is a group of progressive, left-wing Che-Lives members who participate in open and free discussion on the administration of this board and all its forums. Together, this group selects Moderators and debates bans and restrictions in a reasonably democratic fashion on a daily basis. The Admins and Mods, based on the debates and discussions, then carry out whatever action is called for and log it for all CC members to see.

...So basicly, your ideals want a classless society with eqality of democracy, however, this webforumn cannot function, like this?

To mirror marx, i am going to say that us 'normals' should have an equal democratic say to rival the 'omnicient' commie club who seem to be taking decisions on our behalf!!! Aftere all it is us who are not aloud to grace the halls of this self appointed legislature even though we are the majority!!!

I propose that we, the class of people on che-live whom are told we are unable to join in the policy making process, simply on the grounds that we 'havent got enough posts' or 'do not fit in ideologically into the CC' should start a seperate foum of debate, a 'che-lives soviet' so to speak.

[ComradeRed]

your doing the right thing... to get restricted

[AC-Socialist]

Surely that would just be MORE hipocritical! its only common sense! Ive been a member of this foum under varios psudenyms for at least 2 and a half years, and i have its best interests at heart! We should ALL be involved in the PMP, even if it is just to the extent that everyone can view posts made in the commie club and not vote. Its the secrecy that is also a problem.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

AC-Socialist appears unaware that the folks in CC are extremely ban happy...

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 01:51 AM
AC-Socialist appears unaware that the folks in CC are extremely ban happy...
so do i have your support?

[Nickademus]

ok let me explain the commie club (and i was around when it was created). on che-lives a while back we were having a lot of problems with capatlists and stalinist and nazis who were just spamming and we found it hard to talk amongst ourselves. so malte ASKED US ALL what we thought about the creation of an area that would be available to anyone once we were comfortable enough with them to know that they weren't capitalist, stanlist or nazis who were just going to spam. its not a post count..and its not that you have to agree with the ideas of the members completely. in fact all you need is to be recommended. and there are quite a few people in the commie club.

and mods are really necessary on these boards. take the phora for example...they wanted free and open discussion and were pissed off that people were being banned etc. and now they've created their own board where they'll ban tons and tons of people...many more than have ever been banned from this board.

its really not difficult to become a commie club member ... and its not that we think we are superior... i'm superior to no person ..... its simply wanting to keep people who will not engage in useful discussion out of a space. its akin to women's only space.. but its a no spamming idiots zone.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Im afraid that my support is utterly meaningless.

[AC-Socialist]

ok let me explain the commie club (and i was around when it was created). on che-lives a while back we were having a lot of problems with capatlists and stalinist and nazis who were just spamming and we found it hard to talk amongst ourselves. so malte ASKED US ALL what we thought about the creation of an area that would be available to anyone once we were comfortable enough with them to know that they weren't capitalist, stanlist or nazis who were just going to spam. its not a post count..and its not that you have to agree with the ideas of the members completely. in fact all you need is to be recommended. and there are quite a few people in the commie club.

So its established that a legislature is required, i agree. However, people who havent been recommended, yet are good members and intelligent posters are unable to see what is going on, we are stuck behind this wall.


and mods are really necessary on these boards. take the phora for example...they wanted free and open discussion and were pissed off that people were being banned etc. and now they've created their own board where they'll ban tons and tons of people...many more than have ever been banned from this board.

I was not attacking the position of the mods on che-lives, neither explicitly nor implicitly.


its really not difficult to become a commie club member ... and its not that we think we are superior... i'm superior to no person ..... its simply wanting to keep people who will not engage in useful discussion out of a space. its akin to women's only space.. but its a no spamming idiots zone.

This may be true, but i see many people who do 'engage in useful discussion' not in the commie club. The problme obviosly is in this selection process of reccommendation, surely reccomended people are going to share the dominant ideology of the CC members, and if you think they are all uncorrupt then its naive, ive seen plenty of examples of coruption, notice that the first reply to this thread was a warning of restriction, for voicing my opinion!!!!????

[John Galt]

This board is indeed a living example of why communism doesnt work.


If it doesnt work on such a small scale, with the risks so low, why would it work on a global scale with people's lives depending on it?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I would rather be restricted here by "anarchists" and talk here rather then be talk restricted
(and probably banned) at a capitalist forum. :P

[Don't Change Your Name]

Let's get this straight: the commie club (aka "that secret organization that wants to overthrow the government") is not some kind of leninist vanguard party or such thing. The Commie Club is just a democratic assembly where those members who have proven to be "leftists", who are up to serious debates, and aren't just some capitalist pigs, get access to this special area. In fact it's not like there are 10 members, there are many. If you would post from time to time, show that you can be "mature", and that you aren't some kind of "spy", then I'm sure someone will nominate you to access.

[AC-Socialist]

Let's get this straight: the commie club (aka "that secret organization that wants to overthrow the government") is not some kind of leninist vanguard party or such thing.

I never said this


The Commie Club is just a democratic assembly where those members who have proven to be "leftists", who are up to serious debates, and aren't just some capitalist pigs, get access to this special area.

yep, this has already been addressed...


In fact it's not like there are 10 members, there are many. If you would post from time to time, show that you can be "mature", and that you aren't some kind of "spy", then I'm sure someone will nominate you to access.

...and so has this.Well im sure other members of the club would read the whole thread before commenting, wouldnt they? I mean its only maturity, just like its mature to label people 'rubbish poster' and the like.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:09 AM
Well im sure other members of the club would read the whole thread before commenting, wouldnt they?
I have read it. I knew most of those things had been posted above. So? My point is: it's not some kind of sectarian thing. It's in fact pretty much open. I noticed people complained about it many times, with such arguments as "it's anti-democratic", "it's very authoritarian", etc. while it's just, as the name suggests, a "club" for those with a certain point of view concerning economics and politics. It's a bit like a political party. And as you might realize I doubt cappies are members of such "leftist extremists" parties.


This board is indeed a living example of why communism doesnt work.


If it doesnt work on such a small scale, with the risks so low, why would it work on a global scale with people's lives depending on it?

???

[RedCeltic]

Excuse me but since when is an internet board a nation?

What you're saying is basicly like saying that any labor union that
does not let the bosses be members and have a vote in what is said
regardless of the union being for Labor, is restricting free speach.

Or what about a magazine or a newspaper? Is the editer restricting
free speach if they don't publish every article submited by freelancers?

You need to be a bit more realistic here. I don't know about you but I
don't live on the internet, I'm actual a physical bio-organism typing this.

The way che-lives is run is actually very different from most boards on the
internet.

Every board I've posted on, mods and admin decide among themselves if
someone should be banned etc... without asking the general population.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 08:48 PM
Surely that would just be MORE hipocritical! its only common sense! Ive been a member of this foum under varios psudenyms for at least 2 and a half years, and i have its best interests at heart! We should ALL be involved in the PMP, even if it is just to the extent that everyone can view posts made in the commie club and not vote. Its the secrecy that is also a problem.
May I ask what those pseudonyms were?

If you reread the whole FAQ, you may find you don't understand what the CC is for. Just the fact that it's here is a victory for a Democratic moderation structure. It's a constant balance between a workable, spam-free environment, and a Democratic structure. So there is no possibility of letting everyone in there.

We do, however, try to let as many progressives as possible in. It's just that it takes time to get people recommended, and there's no other way to filter out spammers, racists, homophobes, sexists, and trolls.

[Guest1]

An example of one part you ignored:


Can't it be better?

While we do love our decentralization, and we do consider it a reflection upon how we see a future society can be organized along Socialist lines, this is not a country. There will always be a hierarchy here, no matter what we think of hierarchy in the real world. Malte will always own this site, and have the final decision if he chooses to make it.

That's the way it is, and it's neither bad nor good, just the fact.

That being said, the CC continues to evolve, and who knows where this unique experiment may lead us.

[Nickademus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:08 PM
So its established that a legislature is required, i agree. However, people who havent been recommended, yet are good members and intelligent posters are unable to see what is going on, we are stuck behind this wall.

This may be true, but i see many people who do 'engage in useful discussion' not in the commie club. The problme obviosly is in this selection process of reccommendation, surely reccomended people are going to share the dominant ideology of the CC members, and if you think they are all uncorrupt then its naive, ive seen plenty of examples of coruption, notice that the first reply to this thread was a warning of restriction, for voicing my opinion!!!!????
perhaps the first comment was a joke.

and you know since the CC started .. this board has expanded vastly ... hell i remember when there weren't even 100 members and now we're over 6000.... its gonna take some time for us to recognize everyone ... patience.... and hey you know if you think someone should be admitted and you're not even a CC member, email someone who is in the CC .... be somewhat proactive... we're leftists..we should all know how to do that. .. we aren't gonna turn away people without a very good reason ... and hey you ask me and if you're rejected i'll let you know exactly what we decide and why ..... i'm about complete disclosure.

[Guest1]

Exactly. I would nominate you myself, but I haven't read many of your posts... except these ones.

So who did you used to be, I'm curious.

[The Feral Underclass]

None of the admins or the mods have to explain anything to you AC-Socialist. Commie Club exists because the person who owns this baord decided to make it. You dont have to know why, nor does anyone have to justify its existence to you. If you think it is hypcritical then you dont have to post here.

This is not a nation, nor is it a communist society, so first of all, I think it's rediculas and avery naive to use this forum as a vindication that communism as a science and political philosophy does not work. Secondly, we dont have to be nice to people we dont like. This is just a message board. The admins on this board have the descretion to ban, restrict and create as many private forums as they want. This is their project, not yours, or mine and it exists for a specific purpose. In fact, this forum is probably one of the most democratic forums on the internet. You will not find many forums, other than the ones who have used Che-lives as a model, which allow open discussion about restrictions or modifications to the boards.

In short, if you dont like what is going on in this board, go and make your own!!!

[Individual]

If you don't believe that Che-Lives goes about things democratically, check out this site and then come back and tell all of us how democratic we are:

www.ernesto-guevara.com (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums)

;)

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:40 AM
If you don't believe that Che-Lives goes about things democratically, check out this site and then come back and tell all of us how democratic we are:

www.ernesto-guevara.com (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums)

;)
I went...and found this...


Enigma should just be banned (for his behavior here, and at Che-Lives and ISF). There is no reason to even vote on it. -- Sensitive

http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/inde...p?showtopic=165 (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=165)

As much as I sympathize with that sentiment (:P) , I find it difficult to see how eg.com has much to "teach" us about "democracy".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Why are you bothered AC-Socialist, I am sure if you simply asked nicely you would get in.

I'm sure its not that exciting in there especially not the fuss that goes on about it.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 08:20 AM
None of the admins or the mods have to explain anything to you AC-Socialist. Commie Club exists because the person who owns this baord decided to make it. You dont have to know why, nor does anyone have to justify its existence to you. If you think it is hypcritical then you dont have to post here.
Ahhhh.....


The bourgeoise oppressors own the board, and thus us poor peasents must lick their boots. Oh great bourgeoise, you needent explain anything to us. Work in your mysterious ways, oh great ones.


which allow open discussion about restrictions or modifications to the boards.

Last I checked, this thread was stickied.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=22496 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=22496)
with the subtitle: dont make post's about restrictions"

[Guest1]

Hehe, the discussions happen in the CC ;)

Oh, and redstar, he was being sarcastic, using that site to show exactly what those who call us undemocratic do when they have their own board. They create a closed up hellhole that allows Nazis to roam free, but bans anyone who puts down Stalin.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:37 PM
Hehe, the discussions happen in the CC ;)

Oh the bourgeoise and their secret meetings where they decide who they should oppress today!

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by John Galt+Mar 28 2004, 10:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (John Galt @ Mar 28 2004, 10:00 AM)
Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:37 PM
Hehe, the discussions happen in the CC ;)

Oh the bourgeoise and their secret meetings where they decide who they should oppress today&#33; [/b]
You need to get a life dude.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How many times?&#33;? this is not a nation or a society&#33;

Nobody has to live here.

Abide by the rules, and you can get your view across&#33;&#33;&#33;

-NoX, talking to a wall.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Speaking of restrictions, when will I ever get mine lifted? Or shall I rot in OI for all of eternity or do I need to get a new screen name?

[Guest1]

Is anyone ever unrestricted or reaccepted into the CC?

Yes, there have been many cases where a person has been forgiven and accepted back into the fold. It isn&#39;t easy however, because it usually requires genuine change for the membership to forgive and forget. It&#39;s hard for us to believe someone who says they are no longer racist/sexist/homophobic for example. However, as time passes by, and the person&#39;s comments continue to reflect a positive change, we become determined to see this member accepted after what then would become a learning experience for him/her.

[Guest1]

Don&#39;t get a new screen name, that would probably get you banned.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Mar 28 2004, 04:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedCeltic @ Mar 28 2004, 04:09 PM)
Originally posted by John [email protected] 28 2004, 10:00 AM

Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:37 PM
Hehe, the discussions happen in the CC ;)

Oh the bourgeoise and their secret meetings where they decide who they should oppress today&#33;
You need to get a life dude. [/b]
It is ok. One day the proletariat shall arise and stomp out you vile oppressors.


Tremble, for the fall of this "commie" club is inevitable.

[RedCeltic]

It is ok. One day the proletariat shall arise and stomp out you vile oppressors.


Tremble, for the fall of this "commie" club is inevitable.

Please explain how you are a proletariat on che lives. Because by your use of "Proletariat" it is quite obvious that you have no idea what it actually means.

are you an employee here? Are you being paid to post on this board? If you were than you should have the right to voice your opinion on how the board is run, dispite being a capitalist.

However you were never asked to come to this board. You sort of just invited yourself in didn&#39;t you?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:08 AM

ok let me explain the commie club (and i was around when it was created). on che-lives a while back we were having a lot of problems with capatlists and stalinist and nazis who were just spamming and we found it hard to talk amongst ourselves. so malte ASKED US ALL what we thought about the creation of an area that would be available to anyone once we were comfortable enough with them to know that they weren&#39;t capitalist, stanlist or nazis who were just going to spam. its not a post count..and its not that you have to agree with the ideas of the members completely. in fact all you need is to be recommended. and there are quite a few people in the commie club.

So its established that a legislature is required, i agree. However, people who havent been recommended, yet are good members and intelligent posters are unable to see what is going on, we are stuck behind this wall.


and mods are really necessary on these boards. take the phora for example...they wanted free and open discussion and were pissed off that people were being banned etc. and now they&#39;ve created their own board where they&#39;ll ban tons and tons of people...many more than have ever been banned from this board.

I was not attacking the position of the mods on che-lives, neither explicitly nor implicitly.


its really not difficult to become a commie club member ... and its not that we think we are superior... i&#39;m superior to no person ..... its simply wanting to keep people who will not engage in useful discussion out of a space. its akin to women&#39;s only space.. but its a no spamming idiots zone.

This may be true, but i see many people who do &#39;engage in useful discussion&#39; not in the commie club. The problme obviosly is in this selection process of reccommendation, surely reccomended people are going to share the dominant ideology of the CC members, and if you think they are all uncorrupt then its naive, ive seen plenty of examples of coruption, notice that the first reply to this thread was a warning of restriction, for voicing my opinion&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;????
Your logic is self defeating, how can we assume that you are a good poster until you have a sizable number of posts with which we can make referance?

Its that simple, I would say about 95% of people who join this board and stay longer than a week get into the CC, its not like getting into mastermind chair.

This may be true, but i see many people who do &#39;engage in useful discussion&#39; not in the commie club.

Such as? if they are not capitalsist or bloody stalinist nazi&#39;s, then i&#39;m sure that by raising this they will be considered.

If it doesnt work on such a small scale, with the risks so low, why would it work on a global scale with people&#39;s lives depending on it?


This is not a country or a socal/economic experiment, its a message board.

As much as I sympathize with that sentiment ()

Funny how you seam to agree with, stalinists all the time... odd correlation.

[guantanamera]

can&#39;t we all just get along?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by John Galt+Mar 28 2004, 05:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (John Galt @ Mar 28 2004, 05:02 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by John [email protected] 28 2004, 10:00 AM

Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:37 PM
Hehe, the discussions happen in the CC ;)

Oh the bourgeoise and their secret meetings where they decide who they should oppress today&#33;
You need to get a life dude.
It is ok. One day the proletariat shall arise and stomp out you vile oppressors.


Tremble, for the fall of this "commie" club is inevitable. [/b]
Maybe if you work hard and stop being a lazy ignorant idiot who lives on the successful exceptional men&#39;s taxes you too can belong to that priveledged group&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:22 PM
can&#39;t we all just get along?
No, as long as Gareth gates, Will Young, etc exist, I will be filled with hatred and scorn for my fellow man.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:45 PM




This is not a country or a socal/economic experiment, its a message board.

So these ideals of equality dont count? I know im being pedantic, but you are being hipocritical.

Anyway, mabye if the CC could opertate with a bit more clarity, mabye if people who are being talked about knew this, and could defend themselves if they were under restriction? I mean both Red Revolution and Wolfie have made some valid posts and are both above 100 in there post counts. And please, i illiterate what i said in my last post


This may be true, but i see many people who do &#39;engage in useful discussion&#39; not in the commie club. The problme obviosly is in this selection process of reccommendation, surely reccomended people are going to share the dominant ideology of the CC members, and if you think they are all uncorrupt then its naive, ive seen plenty of examples of coruption, notice that the first reply to this thread was a warning of restriction, for voicing my opinion&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;????

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by Enigma+Mar 28 2004, 09:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Mar 28 2004, 09:17 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 08:22 PM
can&#39;t we all just get along?
No, as long as Gareth gates, Will Young, etc exist, I will be filled with hatred and scorn for my fellow man. [/b]
Damn straight

[Guest1]

Just cause some people don&#39;t get noticed, doesn&#39;t mean there&#39;s some sort of conspiracy.

[Rasta Sapian]

weak people, WEAK&#33;

yall remember the KGB under Stalin?

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 11:30 PM
Just cause some people don&#39;t get noticed, doesn&#39;t mean there&#39;s some sort of conspiracy.
not implied

[Nickademus]

ok ok ... listen .... if someone is being banned or what not from the board or even from the CC there is discussion and people will get a chance to defend themselves.... however, if they continue to post crap, that goes against their defence.

we aren&#39;t closeted dictators here.... we try to be as open as possible and treat everyone as equal.

AND TO ALL OF YOU OUT THERE WHO ARE MAKING GOOD POSTS AND WE JUST HAVEN&#39;T SEEN YOU YET, ALL OF US IN THE CC ARE SORRY. but remember, with this many people on theboard its hard to recognize people if they don&#39;t post a lot.... however, posting one liners and stuff wont&#39; get you noticed in the right way.

again, we didn&#39;t created the cc to be elitists or anything, we simply created it so we could have open discussions about things without being spammed by nazis etc. unfortunately that&#39;s also where we have much of the banning etc. discussions because of the spam we get in those threads. but you aren&#39;t just banned from this place without a chance to say anything about it... you know when and if its going to happen.

please this is silly

[Guest1]

Sapian, what are you talking about?

I think you&#39;ve got a few recommendations actually.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 06:39 PM
Sapian, what are you talking about?

I think you&#39;ve got a few recommendations actually.
Actually Rasta Sapian has three votes as of today and will be in CC in seven days.

[apathy maybe]

John Galt
if you were given access to the CC or even the rest of the board, you would be spamming like hell. Or even if you didn&#39;t you would be trying to promote ideas that aren&#39;t welcome here.


I once thought that the CC was not needed as well. I held out joining for a number of months if I recall correctly. But having been here over a year, and seen a variety of &#39;cappies&#39; come and go, I&#39;ld say that the CC is needed even just as a board for discussing admin stuff with the rest of the populace. We don&#39;t want right-wingers or just spammers interupting debates about whether we should have a new forum or not. To prevent that people are screened. If you stick around for more then a few months and post things that are constructive you to will get access to the CC and if you stick around for a few more months and might see for yourself why the CC is needed.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Hey, I wouldnt be spamming....

[Individual]

Hey, I wouldnt be spamming....

Nice try. :rolleyes:

I think your aim should be getting off restriction, not getting in the CC.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 29 2004, 03:42 AM
John Galt
if you were given access to the CC or even the rest of the board, you would be spamming like hell. Or even if you didn&#39;t you would be trying to promote ideas that aren&#39;t welcome here.

I spam?


Really? I didnt know that.


I was restricted for replying to a scientific thread in the science forum.


And yes, I do promote an idea that isnt welcome here. The idea is called reality.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by John [email protected] 29 2004, 03:52 AM
I spam?


Really? I didnt know that.
The point is that you would go around giving your opinion on every single issue where yours arent welcome. I mean, if there&#39;s, let&#39;s say, another of those anarchism vs. leninism threads, you would appear to point out how X person has just evaded the reality of the glorious capitalist free market or some crap like that. I can&#39;t blame you really, it is what I would do if given a chance, and most people would (giving one&#39;s opinion). The problem is on the situation and the intention of the forum where that is posted.


And yes, I do promote an idea that isnt welcome here. The idea is called reality.

Wouldn&#39;t that be your reality???

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 12:38 AM
ok ok ... listen .... if someone is being banned or what not from the board or even from the CC there is discussion and people will get a chance to defend themselves.... however, if they continue to post crap, that goes against their defence.

we aren&#39;t closeted dictators here.... we try to be as open as possible and treat everyone as equal.

AND TO ALL OF YOU OUT THERE WHO ARE MAKING GOOD POSTS AND WE JUST HAVEN&#39;T SEEN YOU YET, ALL OF US IN THE CC ARE SORRY. but remember, with this many people on theboard its hard to recognize people if they don&#39;t post a lot.... however, posting one liners and stuff wont&#39; get you noticed in the right way.

again, we didn&#39;t created the cc to be elitists or anything, we simply created it so we could have open discussions about things without being spammed by nazis etc. unfortunately that&#39;s also where we have much of the banning etc. discussions because of the spam we get in those threads. but you aren&#39;t just banned from this place without a chance to say anything about it... you know when and if its going to happen.

please this is silly
Excellent, im willing to leave it here. I hope that the CC can now continue to serve the interets of the masses by keeping us all informed with decisions in progress so to speak so others can lend there opinion.

Thank you

[Vinny Rafarino]

Excellent, im willing to leave it here. I hope that the CC can now continue to serve the interets of the masses by keeping us all informed with decisions in progress so to speak so others can lend there opinion.

Thank you


Good grief. The "interests of the masses"?

What is so hard about understanding that an internet forum is here for ENTERTAINMENT and is not some sort of "political revolution"?

Closed.