There's only one definition of communist - WTF

[Moskitto]

One of those people who is really annoying who thinks all communists are Stalinists, asked me again "Was Stalin a communist." I came with a different approach, "It depends on your definition of a communist." And he goes "But there's only one way of defining a communist."

WTF

He couldn't actually say what this "one true definition" was. If he could I could have awnsered his initial question.

Anyway there's hundreds of ways of defining what a communist is.

"A state with a centrally planned economy which justifies what it does by quoting Marx."
"Someone who supports the ideals of Karl Marx."
"Someone who opposes the accumulation of capital."
"Someone who believes in communal ownership not private property."
"Someone who supports the Paris Commune."
"Someone who believes in government where everyone is equal."
"Someone who supports states ruled by the communist party."
"Someone who supports the Bolshevik revolution."

So what was this one true definition of a communist then?

[Dreadnaht1]

All communists are different and believe in different things but they're are certain things that a person must follow to be called a communist. I think that would be following the general ideas of Marx. By general I by no means mean all of the ideas but rather the fact that in a communist society the government A.) controls everything and the government, in turn, is controlled by the people. And B.) they must believe in a classless society. These are really the very very basic ideas of communism and at the least one must follow them and agree with them in order to be named a communist.

Personally, however, I don't think Stalin was a communist nor should Stalinism be considered a form of communism. For a while Stalin did believe in communism and was loyal to the Bolshevik party but once in power he quickly seized control of everything and violated the ideas of Marx and Lenin. He was the reason the USSR ran aground after Lenin's death and he is also the reason capitalism runs rampant in the world today. If he did follow the ideas of Marx he would probobly not have killed 20 million people and destroyed the Soviet Union.

So there is really very little to the defenition of a communist and I suppose that there is no defenition to the term true communist.

-Dread

[Kez]

Surely thats the reason why there are so many definition of communist?
eg marxist, guevarist , euro-communist, stalinist

Communism is a term used to define all these groups who follow marx, or so i believe........

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

The problem is this guy doesn't seem to think there's different types of communist like there's different types of Bhuddism.

I mean I'm a Council Communist which isn't Stalinism

[Kez]

Theres different types of buddhism?
*bows head with ignorance*

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

Yep, that' why it's often called Zen Bhuddism, Faithless is from a sect which uses a double barrelled name. Although there aren't huge differences between each type it's just the way they prectice Bhuddism.

[Kez]

i AM ALSO COUNCIL COMMUNIST, fucking caps lock
but im not solidly in that form, and change like every week, see which suits me best

comrade kamo

If Stalin hadnt killed so many innocent people, would stalinism be good?

[CommieBastard]

no, it wouldnt, because stalin didnt belkeive in the power of the people, or equality, or freedom.
so no, stalinism wouldnt be good...

[Dreadnaht1]

I don't think Stalinism should be viewed as a form of communism. It doesn't follow most if not all of the ideas of Marx and is just plain corrupt. If one person has all the power it should just be called fascism.

-Dread

[red head]

i won't get into the stalin thing much, cause we're having the same discussion in the commie club. i think the definition of communism is 1. no private ownership of land. and 2. government ownership of business. marx said that if communism could be described in one sentance, it would be "no private ownership of land". how did stalin not follow this? just because you don't like someone's ideas don't mean they aren't communist. woops, looks like i did go into the stalin thing after all. but to me, these two things constitute the only definition of communism. similarly, if i used the word "run", the same general picture would appear in everyone's mind. though there are different ways to run, running itself is one singular thing.

[MJM]

I'm with redhead, this constant stalin bashing is based only on the judas actions of krushchev after his death.
If stalin did what he said then all of the USSR and every commie who was around at the time is guity of his crimes.
Hate stalin - hate communism.
I know he wasn't perfect but he wasn't the only man in the USSR, although you'd think he was sometimes.

[Pillar of Maturity]

It's almost at the point where Communism is not a single ideology or type of government, but it's more of a category. There are sub-categories that Moskitto mentioned, which are all types of Communism. Almost every Communist has their own ideas, and that makes Communism different from Capitalism. Capitalism is very narrowly defined a lot of the time.

[CommieBastard]

though marx may have said that communism summed up is no private ownership of land... that is not what it only is, that is it VASTLY oversimplified.
essential to communism are the principles of freedom and equality. Stalin's Russia did not have freedom or equality...
there may be different ways to run, but by that analogy, whereas che, marx and trotsky were moving forward, stalin was running backwards.

[Kez]

Quote: from MJM on 5:35 am on Jan. 23, 2002
I'm with redhead, this constant stalin bashing is based only on the judas actions of krushchev after his death.
Khruschev was the only hope for the USSR to survive against the USA nad the capitylaist whores, after the removing of khrushev ussr's fate was sealed.

Long live Khrushevs spirit
Long live the USSR in all our hearts

[Dreadnaht1]

If hating Stalin is hating communism then I'm guilty of that. If anything, I think Stalinists are worse then Nazis. They were then and most likely are now. Anyone who can justify the death of 20 million (plus) innocent people doesn't deserve the brain they were given. Just because we're communists doesn't mean we have to agree with and like all forms of 'communism.' And just because I don't like Stalinism doesn't mean I hate communism. And because I dislike Stalin and Stalinism isn't the only reason I don't call it communism. It's not communism because it doesn't follow what I feel are the basic ideas of Marx and communism.

And here's something interesting: Was Stalinist USSR Classless? No. If I'm correct here I thought Stalin had quite a bit of money and so did a few of his friends that he put into office. Hence, only years after it's birth, the USSR reverted to the classical haves and have-nots with 80% of all wealth in the hands of a few. The very thing the people of Russia were fighting. And when capitalist morons tell me one of the reasons for the USSR collapse was because the people of Russia were fed up with 'communism.' This enrages me since they were fed up with Stalinist Communism, if you still want to call it communism.

And it did seem like he wasn't the only one in office because there were others. I can agree with that. Except everyone else Stalin put in office were underqualified and supported him.

-Dread

[Kez]

Stalin was good for 2 things:
Making USSR superpower from scratch over les than 20 years
Defeating the bastard hitlerite dogs

Stalin was bad for 2 things:
Killing many people, some who were innocent and were themselves the greatest communists ever such as Yeghishe Charents and of course Leo.
Creating a very small elitist club, (which may be bad) but the "elite" didnt exploit there position to the extent that it had a real effect on the country

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

oh fuck fuck fuck..
today we started the fascist part of the politics course...
and i was going to point out that staling fits all 12 of the definitions of a fascist..
but my frikkin bag got stolen today, so i dont have any of my notes *growls*

[Dreadnaht1]

Don't worry CB, we belive you. What right wing fuck head stole your bag?

[Kez]

Stalin wasnt a fuckin fascist. FUX sake. he was totalitarian and authoritive, not a fuckin fascist, fuckin hell.
If anyone was a fascist it was Chamberlain and Clemanceau

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

An Extreme form of Totalitarianism is Fascism.

BTW Commie Bastard. What are the 12 definitions of a fascist?

[CommieBastard]

i dont know! my notes were in my bag which was stolen, as i said!
it had my frikkin CD player in it too :/

[Moskitto]

Doh, I must improve my reading skills or i'll get a D in my real exam just like my mocks.

[red head]

commie bastard, i think you are giving YOUR definition of communism, and not a textbook one. communism is an economic system, so all the talk about equality, to me, is bullshit. equality is something gained by following the principles of communism, but isn't doesn't necessarily result. the number of deaths caused by stalin were greatly exaggerated by that sack of shit khruschev. yes, people did die, and many of them were unncecessary. but the life expectancy rose, and health care and education improved. a beauracracy did form, and that was stalins primary mistake, but one realized and improved upon by chairman mao, who to me shows that stalins ideas were basically correct, if not always his actions. and no, stalinist russia wasn't classless, but rome wasn't built in a day. wages were improving and rich people were being forced off their land (or killed). equality and freedom don't mean shit of you're starving. and if you think they were free before stalin, or would've been under trotsky, you're dillusional. kamo, i think you should read more about khruschev. khruschev was no great communist. the split between china and the ussr happened largely because mao realized what a revisionist khruschev was. i know that in itself isn't proof, but proof does exist. i think capitalism can be diverse like communism, it just hasn't had a chance. look at the reality of communism-most systems were about the same. trotskyism, council communism, anarcho-communism and others are all just theory at this point, just like neo-liberalism, true conservatism, and meritocracy are all capitalist or capitalist-based theories. the realities at this point are much different.

[Kez]

Quote: from Moskitto on 7:50 pm on Jan. 25, 2002
An Extreme form of Totalitarianism is Fascism.


says who? im not saying totalitarianism is good, by no means, but it isnt fascist

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

Communism is not JUST an economic theory, if you think that, then you know jack shit about it, and you'd better get reading...

[Moskitto]

Oh yeah. Fascism believes in the sole authority of the state.

Likewise Totalitarianism believes in the sole authority of the state.

What's the difference?

[Kez]

wtf man,
thats like saying oon a bigger scale that..
fascists say pensions should be aloud
labour says penions should be aloud

are the BOTH fascsist? no

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

actually, labour falls into many of the definitions of fascist : )
note the cronyism etc..
not all definitions of fascism say that fadscism is based upon ideas of racism, in fact, most dont!
look at mussolini, he founded it, and he wasnt very 'racist', just imperialist...

[Dreadnaht1]

red head: "the number of deaths caused by stalin were greatly exaggerated by that sack of shit khruschev. yes, people did die, and many of them were unncecessary. but the life expectancy rose, and health care and education improved. a beauracracy did form, and that was stalins primary mistake, but one realized and improved upon by chairman mao, who to me shows that stalins ideas were basically correct, if not always his actions."

It's been historically proven that Stalin killed more then 20 million Ukranians and Soviets. That's the most deaths caused by a single man except for one other in history (GOD). His actions were more then just wrong. He totally corrupted and deformed the USSR and from him after it never reverted to what it was supposed to be. It pretty much just went down hill. The reason we don't have a Bolshevik Russia today is because of Stalin and his greed/insanity. He was very much fascist and I think if you sat Stalin, Hitler, and Moussilini down they would have a very very pleasant chat (minus the economics). Russia was very well off with Lenin and even if life expectancy rose their was more a chance that you'd end up in a grave (trench) in Siberia then before the revolution. Trotsky most likely could've saved the USSR but after 8 attempted assasinations and an ice-pick through the head I highly doubt we'll ever know.

-Dread

[libereco]

I can't believe that anyone would defend stalin, and pretend to care for "the people".

[Kez]

Khrushev was NOT a sack of shit, he was the only one that could save the USSR, but then the hard-line corrupt communists fucked everything up and put the ussr on top of a slippery slope with Brezhnev as head.

fuck you on about fascism and labour being same? Hitler killed 6 million jews, labour have cronyism? fuck you ona bout cb, ur not funny, stfu u tit

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

to be a fascist you dont have to kill people you know, fascism is a system of government...

[Moskitto]

Kruschev Ruled

Brezhnev Sucked

Actually Stalin didn't kill more than anyone else in history. If you include all of Mao's unintentional deaths then Mao becomes top (Although I don't.) Hitler likewise killed slightly more than 20 million (24 million low figure,) It's a myth that Hitler only killed 6 million Jews, spreading it dishonours the Slavs (who were slaughtered nearly as much as Jews,) Gypsies, Homosexuals, and generally people who didn't fit into the idea of a perfect "aryan".

[CommieBastard]

not to mention political, religious and general ideological opponents.

[Dreadnaht1]

I also agree that Krushchev was moving the USSR in a general direction but he wasn't in power long enough to make a big dent in the Stalinist economy. It's kind of like pulling a plane out of a steep nose dive five feet (damn imperialist measurements!) above the ground while making coffee and solving pi simultaneously.

-Dread

[Kez]

If Khrushev was in power long enough, we would still have a SU, now, no yugoslavia bombing, no afghan bombing, no mafias in russia

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

Kruschev was the first Russian leader to leave office peacefully and still alive.

[Kez]

He didnt leave peacefully
the commie bastards made him leave

comrade kamo

[libereco]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 10:15 pm on Jan. 27, 2002
He didnt leave peacefully
the commie bastards made him leave

comrade kamo

hmmm?

[Moskitto]

Well. He left alive at least.

But Brezhnev, GLAAAAA. I hate him. Dubchek just ruled because of the Prague spring but NOOOOO Brezhnev had to get rid of it and give communism a bad name for eternity.

[MJM]

He gave the west the propaganda they spout daily and split with China.
Stabbed Stalin in the back and made out he was solely responsible for all the bad in the USSR.

With friends like that who needs enemies?

[Dreadnaht1]

Pretty sure Stalin did himself and communism in. I'm not sure how to stab one's self in the back but of course Stalin found a way. Let's say he shot himself in the foot. Better yet, in the face! That would be something quite enjoyable to see. We could sell tickets and everything.

-Dread

[peaccenicked]

Historically, the term communist took on significance
for the third international to define the movement against the pro war(first world war) second internationalists. Marx and Engels used the terms socialist and communist interchangeably.
To day I would use the term Scientific Socialist because
it is bound to start an argument with the post modernists.

[guerrillaradio]

Kamo - I'm interested in how you call Chamberlain and Clemenceau facists. Maybe you'd like to back up that rather ridiculous claim??

Stalin was a terrible leader. But it's true that Russia didn't get sick of Communism, because communism ceased to exist in Russia after about 1930. Khrushchev wasn't much better. He tried hard, but was unable to get any successes (cf: Berlin Crisis, land redistribution). Brezhnev was just the pits though. He really fucked the USSR over and left Gorbachev with no choice but to pursue perestroika.