Bloody Sunday

[revolutionary spirit]

it was an amazing piece of TV on how british paras murdered unarmed civilans in derry,it was fucking brutal

[revolutionary]

i have not watched it (yet). But i know the British policies were biased and they tried covering it up.

[peaccenicked]

it was great, I watched it with my brother and he was impressed too. These programmes, let Irish nationalists know that there is commitment to the peace process.
Politically, it is a better sign of the times.

[Terminal Frost]

Great programme - James Nesbitt really got into the part.

[revolutionary spirit]

yeah powerful-being irish myself i got very pissed off

[Terminal Frost]

I'm as English as you get - so we're enemies!! :)

The whole thing is a mess - so much blood over something so stupid. English/Irish RC/CofE- we're all flesh and blood. IMHO N.Ireland should be made a separate state - independant from both Britain and Eire. It's the only way.

[Terminal Frost]

Next Monday at 9.00 on Ch4. "Sunday" a personal account of it. Looks good.

[The Rapparee]

Bloody British can never keep their fingers off the triggers when it involves the Irish Catholics. It was the most shameless act in the irish problem in modern days. It was a peaceful demonstration in which the minroty recked it. Thers only one answer to the Irish prblem and thats give Northern ireland back. Why keep it? Its the same other their colonies like Gibrlater and the Falklands why keep them they hve no real importance. Thats the British thinking they are the position to influenc ethe World when America over took them along time ago.

[Terminal Frost]

Why keep it?

[yawn] Because 1/2 of the population wants to remain as part of Britain. Duh! Same as in the Falklands. The people WANT to be part of GB. Isn't that the idea. Every group of people should have the right to a choice of Govt.

Sinn Fein my ass. Terrorism against an innocent population is unacceptable - whatever the cause. How about getting a bit of neutral perspective and impartial knowledge.

[peaccenicked]

Another boring brit. How about britain taking historical taking resposibility for creating the artificial division.
Which was build on apartheid with second class citizens.
Built on gerry mandering and playing the orange card in working class srtruggles. It is an artificial statelet and should be abolished along with your left wing credentials

(Edited by peaccenicked at 9:46 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)

[tyronelad]

in relation 2 your post, the bloody sunday march was not about the IRA- it was CIVIL RIGHTS. the Irish catholic population (which was about 40% of the population) had no representation on Stormont!!! The protestants had an armed milita (Brits go on about IRA decommisioning- theres 200,000 legally held guns in northern ireland- not 2 mention all those left over after the B-Specials and UDR)

The loyalist people r beginning to explore thier own culture (due 2 the erosion of thier "Protestant state for Proestant ppl (Carson- what northern ireland was sworn in as)"), they r beginning to think that they were always there- back to Cuchlainn- an irish myth about a ulster fighter who defended ulster fom southern armies- who loyalists claim was the first UDA man! this i clearly unrealistic, as the place where cuchlainn is said to b from (the Gap of the north- SOUTH ARMAGH- is fiercely republican and catholic. if these inhabitants were Picts (the branch of celts in northern ulster-western scotland) why where they so independant when the planters came?

some claim the IRA is nothing more than murderin scum. Accepted. Many repulicans i know are fenian bigots. But is it the IRA killing postal workers? No. Why? thier leadership. Gerry Adams and Marty and Gerry Kelly all know what can happen- Gerry Adams was interned, beat black and blue by Brits and was nearly killed by UFF squad which the Brits knew about; Gerry Kelly (who was a teenager when arrested in London) was on hunger strike for three years in a British prison- he was force fed

[CommieBastard]

wtf?
why should we take responsibility for what historically happened?
it wasnt ME who shot anyone...
ffs, so NI was an artificially created statelet? if you had any left wing credentials you would know that all states are artificially created nonsenses, with arbitrarily set boundaries, and if anyone who was fighting to get northern ireland back had any left wing credentials, they would stop killing their proletariat brethren, and start trying to bring in some fucking socialist reforms!

[CommieBastard]

pfft, it's all petty tribalism, national boundaries this, religion that... picts? WHAT THE FUCK HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING? where do the ancient scotti, picti and other celtic tribes actually come into it? it is all a load of irrelevant shit that clouds the minds of peope that should be fighting FOR THE WORKERS not NATIONS which dont really exist except in our fuckign minds...

[peaccenicked]

It might help if you took som historical responsibility for letting British government tell lies over lies about the irish situation. You have swalled them shamelessly and are repeating them like a bbc prat.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 9:53 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)

[CommieBastard]

There is no such valid thing as historical responsibility. The sins of the fathers? they can go fuck themselves. I didnt pull the trigger, and i am not sitting in apathy.
I do more to fight for the irish by moving forward the international communist cause than any IRA or sin fein man has ever done by propogating bullshit about how important that six counties bullshit is. Nations dont matter. National boundaries dont matter. International solidarity of the workers fuckign revolution.

[Kez]

Yet another example of British Imperialism, fucking over the people, india, ireland who else?

comrade kamo

The irish were exploited by the brits in the plantations
LONG LIVE SINN FEIN, ALL OVER THE WORLD!
....until the international takes over

nationalism beats imperialism, which are both smashed by internationalism

[CommieBastard]

nationalism IS Imperialism

Sinn fein ARE imperialistic..
they want to conquer the rightful lands of their people?
wtf did hitler bang on about? conquering the rightful lands of his people...
like austria, and parts of czechoslovakia...
all that poland shit was an after thought after he got succesful


THE SINN FEIN AND IRA ARE NATIONALIST SOCIALISTS

anyone know what NAZI stands for? NATIONALIST SOCIALIST

disassociate yourself from these fascist bastards, they are NOT comrades...

[peaccenicked]

commie bastard is using British disinformation tactics to undermine the just struggle for self determination for the irish people in support of a reactionary statelet which has a history of oppressing the catholic community ruthlessly.

[tyronelad]

Terminal Frost- the British govt would b very happy to give up Northenr ireland.

Why? Money.

The IRA is the most capable guerilla army in western europe- bombs on the mainland UK were few and fa between, but in the 90's most costs £100millions. From the period of 1972-79, it was costing the bristish govt £5.5 a minute to stay in northern ireland.

in relation 2 commie bastard, irish republican socialists believe achieveing social equality in ireland would best b achieved in a united country. SinnFein is completing in the upcoming elections in the free state, and Fine Gael (THE republican party) and labour (so-called left wing) are pissing themselves with fear. Gerry Adams has a great Knowledge of the teaching of James Conolly, and time and time agin refers to "a country only bein as rich as its poorest ppl" SF is pro-public transport, anti-Nice Treaty, and its recent Cuban visit was done to keep GRASSROOT repubicans happy- even though at the exspense of US support

secondary, it ain't all the IRAs fault. Numerous times in he trouble loyalist paramilitaries out-killed the IRA 2:1. When the IRA declared a ceasefire in the mid-70s, loyalists went mad.

i have no problem with english people. its thier sometimes calvier attitude- all the 'thick paddy' jokes and the 'good old boys of the regiment'
never forget when the rest of western europe was at war, the irish had monestaries, educating. Indeed a kingdom on mainland europe was not considered civilized unless it had a scolar from an irish monestary...

[Kez]

the highest form of capitalism IS imperialism

they are not fascists,they are our comrades, unlike Hitler, these are actually their lands, and theres too keep, not british .
the loyalists are the fascists

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

You may not like the IRA and people like that, but the Irish are some of the most friendly people in the world.

[CommieBastard]

really? actually their lands? well, austria and parts of czechoslovakia ACTUALLY were germanic...
does that justify invading them for ein reich, ein volk and ein fuhrer?
nope, and neither does the exact same thing which the IRA want.

there is no such thing as a rightful nation, a rightful land belonging to a particular people, just because their ancestors moved there many years ago displacing whoever had settled there first...

there are no rightful nations except for the world nation.

sinn fein would do bets to bring about socialism by making the republic socialist, making it a decent country in which to live, and then saying, hey look how good our country is, so, NI, want to join us? and then NI will scream out yes! because instead of being shit up by these bastards they might have a prospect of joining together with them peacably...

[tyronelad]

calling the ira/sinn fein nazis is an old game.

the roman catholic church was very happy to excommunicate IRA men- a true sign of fascists...

irish republicans fought against franco in he spanish war- many IRA activists went o join the international brigages, while the catholic church condemned them, and supported franco

the IRA-SinnFein have went to turkey to support kurdish- socialis hunger strikers against the fascist government

if you knew anything about the irish conflict, you would know james connolly- a 1916 leader- was a life long socialist- he organised trade unions in the USA, Scotland and other places. His writings r socialist -and r the main diet for many SF activists. one of the irish men in columbia is a well-known hardline Marxist

[peaccenicked]

charging sinn fien with fascism comes from totally ignoring the history of irish republicanism, which has from 1916 is rooted in revolutionary socialism.
Commiebastard why not pick up a book rather spout the formalised economism that even Lenin despised as he knew translates into support for brit oppression.

[CommieBastard]

I do not support britain, i have never said i support britain, no more than i support the taleban just because i criticise the US.
please do not spout your own ignorant crap.

Socialism is a part of fascism, nationalist socialism you see, is what nazism is.

sinn fein is fighting to conquer land, land which they claim is an important part of their nation.
NAtional boundaries are inconsequential.

you've got your mind stuck on nations...
there is no such thing as a valid and rightful nation..
no such thing as lands which rightfully belong to any set of people
just cos some people they are descended from once moved there ffs

there is NO such thing as a just border.
borders are invented and arbitrary and DIVISIVE lines, which are merely fulfill the function of preventing the proletariat from properly unifying.
we must remove borders from our mind if we want to win.
we must forget any thoughts of the significance of nationhood, or the classical liberal notion ofd the right to self determination of nations, for the only right to self-determination is the self-determination of the proletariat

alse barriers which get in our way.
ones which we must not get caught up in the importance of.
the IRA put importance on the borders of the irish nation, but they are not important, they are of no conseuquence, the only thing of consequence is socialist reform. the borders of ireland have no importance, the politics of ireland DOES have importance



THE IRA have lost the plot, they began socialist, but have lost themselves up their own arses, when they started getting concerned about nationhood and the importance of the totality of nation.
They have lost their cause, because they have not made ireland socialist. They have lost their cause, because they spend too much time trying to conquer more land, and not enough time trying to conquer capitalism.

[peaccenicked]

Announcing the death of the national question.
all very nice.
The chances of working class unity in a divided ireland
are about as good as you seeing sense.

[CommieBastard]

so, what you're saying is that
a. the workers within the republic are incapable of unifying with one another and making the republic socialist for ONLY the reason that one small area of their 'nation', an area defined by historical irrelevancies, is not unified with them?
b. the workers in northern ireland cannot put aside their differences on religion, and simply get down to trying to bring in socialist reforms in northern ireland, for ONLY the reason that they are not unified with another nation?
heck, historically, wales covered the whole of the UK... historically, some of the people i am descended from are from scandinavia...
before i fight for socialism do i have to be living in a unified nation with them??

actually, i am descended from irish, welsh, scottish AND english people... so, does that mean i can only fight for socialism if i am living in a nation which unifies ireland, scotland, wales, england, scandinavia, parts of germany, parts of france, iceland, greenland, canda, and some states of the USA???

(Edited by CommieBastard at 5:40 pm on Jan. 23, 2002)

[tyronelad]

u urself claim that borders r used to keep the working class apart. The northern ireland border is not one historically evident, having only been creatd in the 1920's. Many arguements have remained about where certain areas should remain the 'giving' of republican areas to the free state, and the 'taking' of nice areas, such as Letterkenny, Donegal.

Ireland was poverty ridden well into the latter half of the 20th century. it is to the EU and the money gave to ireland that the country has begun to flourish. The 80's were a time of mass emigration to the U$A and Britian in search of work, and crime, drugs, and alcohol abuse rose dramatically.

Now, in the wake of the Celtic Tiger boom, Ireland has become a major computer software producer as well as the most popular tourist destination in Europe (so sue me for liking my country/culture/heritage CB). The latent suffering of the celtic tiger is comng to light now, as more and more are living in ghetto-like slums. Sinn Fein have voiced concern and hope to try and tak acion if elected.

I recognise the idea of national socialism, this is because for a long time irish nationalists were persecuted for talking thier own language, practising catholicism and generally holding ireland in high regard. Surely Ireland would be in a better position to help other countries become democratic socialist republics if it were one.

[peaccenicked]

The history that you seem to ignore or do not tackle anywhere. I have mentioned before. Is that the orange card is played in workers struggles, it is used to divide workers. how can we expect that to be any different until there is common ground on the national question
and the removal of all the colonial excesses of the past like the RUC. When protestant and the catholics see what is happening as the one nation the possiblites for socialism start to open.

[tyronelad]

agreed- the shankill (notorious loyalist area) voted labour in the 20's and 30's, showing protestant workers were concerned about thier rights. The SDLP is also a powerfulk force in the north, but seem to be losing support to a young, flamboyant SF.
Loyalist paramilitaries long claimed to have socialist intentions, but the british gov. used them to carry out dirty work. hatred was bred through the numerous killings, evictions, and current divison of the community.

a cooling stage needs to b achieved. the PSNI suggests maifa tatics used in the U$A to eradicate paramilitaries, which is needed on both loyalist and republican side. the loyalist feud, as bad as it was, it 'took out' men involved in these groups, who know nothing but hatred.

the only way to solve things is to
a) educate- more and more republicans from working class backgrounds r entering QUB- im not sure about loyalist figures
B) distract- the housing needs to be improved. cross community projects, integrated schools, down stepping orange marches- take ppls mind away from hatred by putting something else in front of it, ie money, jobs, getting that tv.

for this situation to arise, we would be probably talking aout 100 yrs from now- only a while ago the free state reburied IRA men executed in the War of Independace- even 80 yrs on there is division in te south- and they are the 'one' community!!!