women and the left [Archive]

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 14:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 11:48 AM

We should actively encourage women to take a more equal part in politics, especially the left-wing ideologies.

I'm afraid it's a little bit more serious than simple lack of encouragement.

Look at the "urinal thread" in Opposing Ideologies. Look at any of the "abortion threads"...especially the posts that refer to women with unwanted pregnancies as "irresponsible sluts". Or the posts that talk about the "crucial importance" of female virginity and "modesty".

It occurs to me that most intelligent, radical women would not feel very comfortable in a political environment where this kind of crap is considered "acceptable".

"Revolution, communism, blah, blah, blah"...but, meanwhile, "ladies", don't forget which gender really counts here.

I don't mean to single out Che-Lives in this regard...from what I have seen, it is universal in the left.

The short version: women don't get no r-e-s-p-e-c-t!

Until that really changes, there will never be very many women in the left...except, of course, in radical feminist groups and on radical feminist message boards, where their numbers will be quite substantial.

The "male left" is, for the most part, "female unfriendly".

Change that...and the sisters will join us.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
those are some interseting points. and its ironic because it women who need to get involved in debates about women who have abortions being sluts and about the concept of virginity and modesty. only when women start getting involved inthose issues will they change. only when women say "hey i don't have toget married to be someone" or "hey i can do what ever the hell i want because i am woman!" will things change.

but i don't know if those types of discussions are really what's keeping women away. i know many womenm whowhen that sort of discussion comes up they arerightin there debating their views.

is it perhaps that we've beentaught to stay out of politics? is it perhaps the militancy and pro-violence some leftists adhere to?

RedAnarchist

26th March 2004, 14:58

Sorry, i assumed you were male as you are a comandante, instead of a comandanta.

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 15:09

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 03:58 PM
Sorry, i assumed you were male as you are a comandante, instead of a comandanta.
everyone assumes i'm male... i have no desire to change to a comandanta (or whatever it was) because i don't think its necessary to distinguish the fact that i am a woman.

RedAnarchist

26th March 2004, 15:11

Of course they dont need to know you're a woman. My assumption wasnt too communist was it? "You have a male title so youre male"

Dune Dx

26th March 2004, 15:15

Most women just arnt intersted in politics or think that they shouldnt be intersted in it - at least in my experiance

this might sound a bit sexist but in my experiance women have usually been worse at arguments and are alot easier to beat in arguments and I think it could put some people off seeing other women being beaten in arguments so regulary that they just dont want to express their opinions.

One woman/girl I regulary proove wrong is so bad at arguments that will resort to just going Im right Im right Im right and will probably give up quite quickly where as im used to arguing with all my classes and dont give up inless Its totally clear im wrong. As I proove her wrong on regular occasions I may just be putting other people off arguing with me - which in recent events isnt true just more and more people want to be prooved wrong!

lol in one post Ive kinda contradicted myself

Blade

26th March 2004, 15:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 03:55 PM

[QUOTE]The "male left" is, for the most part, "female unfriendly".

only when women start getting involved inthose issues will they change. only when women say "hey i don't have toget married to be someone" or "hey i can do what ever the hell i want because i am woman!" will things change.

but i don't know if those types of discussions are really what's keeping women away. i know many womenm whowhen that sort of discussion comes up they arerightin there debating their views.

is it perhaps that we've beentaught to stay out of politics? is it perhaps the militancy and pro-violence some leftists adhere to?
Hello!

If I may chime in...

From my presonal experience, there are few women who Really give a damn about politics.
I remember about a year ago, when everyone was arguing about whether or not King George should go to war, in our class, where the overwhelming majority were women, every single one of them just "didn't know" or "wasn't sure". The way they said it, sounded a lot like "I dont care, leave me alone."

Also, drawing from my experience, and I dont want to offend anybody here, the modern woman in the western society is more concerned about sucking all the money out of their husbands in order to buy extra soft and extra cute expencive furniture and clothes, and ... god forbid... new shoes every damn week. They couldn't care less about the class struggle or anything else. When was the last time you've seen a woman watching the news?
oh, There was an episode where one gal got severely pissed when we (some guys and I) wanted to see the news in order to find out if there's going to be a WAR, and didnt let her watch the stupid ass Big Brother thingy.

Now, before I get flamed on my first post, I want to state that, of course not all women are the same, and I have had the pleasure of meeting some women who were very interested in fighting the great injustice in the world, and helping the poor and abandoned individuals. They were very sincere, and never even thought about getting anything out of it, and I have to say that they are by far the bestest, and kindest people I have ever met.

too bad that not everybody is like that.

P.S. Congrats with the 1000 posts, Nickademus!

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 15:42

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 26 2004, 04:15 PM
this might sound a bit sexist but in my experiance women have usually been worse at arguments and are alot easier to beat in arguments and I think it could put some people off seeing other women being beaten in arguments so regulary that they just dont want to express their opinions.

One woman/girl I regulary proove wrong is so bad at arguments that will resort to just going Im right Im right Im right and will probably give up quite quickly where as im used to arguing with all my classes and dont give up inless Its totally clear im wrong. As I proove her wrong on regular occasions I may just be putting other people off arguing with me - which in recent events isnt true just more and more people want to be prooved wrong!

lol in one post Ive kinda contradicted myself
ok ye that statement is a weeeee bit sexist. those of you who know me from before will remember that i am quite capable of holding my own in an argument. in fact, i rarely 'loose' a debate about something. i can argue with the best of them. so please, don't assume that just because the girls you've been debtaing with have always lost that all women are like that.

i can tell you, in law school, the women often made better and more lasting points then the men inmy classes.

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 15:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE]The "male left" is, for the most part, "female unfriendly".

only when women start getting involved inthose issues will they change. only when women say "hey i don't have toget married to be someone" or "hey i can do what ever the hell i want because i am woman!" will things change.

but i don't know if those types of discussions are really what's keeping women away. i know many womenm whowhen that sort of discussion comes up they arerightin there debating their views.

is it perhaps that we've beentaught to stay out of politics? is it perhaps the militancy and pro-violence some leftists adhere to?
Hello!

If I may chime in...

From my presonal experience, there are few women who Really give a damn about politics.
I remember about a year ago, when everyone was arguing about whether or not King George should go to war, in our class, where the overwhelming majority were women, every single one of them just "didn't know" or "wasn't sure". The way they said it, sounded a lot like "I dont care, leave me alone."

Also, drawing from my experience, and I dont want to offend anybody here, the modern woman in the western society is more concerned about sucking all the money out of their husbands in order to buy extra soft and extra cute expencive furniture and clothes, and ... god forbid... new shoes every damn week. They couldn't care less about the class struggle or anything else. When was the last time you've seen a woman watching the news?
oh, There was an episode where one gal got severely pissed when we (some guys and I) wanted to see the news in order to find out if there's going to be a WAR, and didnt let her watch the stupid ass Big Brother thingy.

Now, before I get flamed on my first post, I want to state that, of course not all women are the same, and I have had the pleasure of meeting some women who were very interested in fighting the great injustice in the world, and helping the poor and abandoned individuals. They were very sincere, and never even thought about getting anything out of it, and I have to say that they are by far the bestest, and kindest people I have ever met.

too bad that not everybody is like that.

P.S. Congrats with the 1000 posts, Nickademus!
do we think possibly that its this type of attitude that the left has towards women that is deterring women? i mean in the last two bloody posts (other than mine) there have been sexists comments downgrading women ... we can't argue and we generally are money grabbing little shits.... can youguys honestly believe these things and still say you want women in the fight?

Dune Dx

26th March 2004, 15:59

I never said all women are like that I just said if this is wide spread it could be a reason as to why women dont want to argue which is a large piece of politics. And its the people that cant argue that put every1 else off If I keep beating som1 who clearly cant argue that is a girl then other girls that can argue might start to think that they wont be good at arguments and can never beat men.

Very poorly structured reply but I hope it makes sense

Blade

26th March 2004, 16:06

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:44 PM
do we think possibly that its this type of attitude that the left has towards women that is deterring women? i mean in the last two bloody posts (other than mine) there have been sexists comments downgrading women ... we can't argue and we generally are money grabbing little shits.... can youguys honestly believe these things and still say you want women in the fight?

what I'm basically saying, is that I think a typical woman in today's society is a "money grabbing little shit", thus is pro-capitalist.
Therefore, you dont see many of them around here.

because of this, I then subscribe to the idea that, as RedStar masterfully points out: "The "male left" is, for the most part, "female unfriendly"."

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 16:10

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 26 2004, 04:59 PM
I never said all women are like that I just said if this is wide spread it could be a reason as to why women dont want to argue which is a large piece of politics. And its the people that cant argue that put every1 else off If I keep beating som1 who clearly cant argue that is a girl then other girls that can argue might start to think that they wont be good at arguments and can never beat men.

Very poorly structured reply but I hope it makes sense
thats still stereotyping women ... it assumes that because one woman can't hold her own in an argument the majority of other women are going to back down and never question men again. WRONG

and you still said most women are money grabbing ..... that's a stereotype that you have painted, even when you admit ther eare some women who aren't like that... you've still made an assumption that most women are like that

El Che

26th March 2004, 16:14

since I am a male, I then subscribe to the idea that, as RedStar masterfully points out: "The "male left" is, for the most part, "female unfriendly"."

Is the Right "female friendly"? How bout the center? You guys make it sounds as if its exclusively a problem of the Left.

Al Creed

26th March 2004, 16:20

Believe me, my friends, there are women on the Left...I'm dating one;)

I've never been able to understand WHY some women support the right. Especially those who support the Republicans or Conservative Party of Canada. Why do they do these things?

Here's a scary thought...In the West (well, the Rich west... <_< )...I can only think of two women who have ever been elected to office as leader of their nation...Kim Campbell (Canada) and Margaret Thatcher (Britian)...Two Staunch Conservatrives....Can anyone PLEASE refute this point with leftist female leaders in the West?

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 16:27

i would exactly call kim campbell a leader.. she didn't exactly last long as a pm...

and although she didn't leadcanada .. there was of course allexa mcdonna (or however the hell you spell her name) ..but she was a terrible speark and its gonna be a long time before ANY ndp person . male or female....runs this country of ours

and i'm not saying there aren' twomen on the left ... i know that cause hey i'm awoman and i'm definately left. what i'm saying is that there arne't enough ouf us yet. and wondering why that is

Solace

26th March 2004, 20:22

The issue is not limited to the left.

Just look at Dune Dx and Blade’s post.

What the hell are women doing in politics? We are too busy trying to steal money from the husband. Who cares about the social classes, we are too busy polishing our nails. And when we actually care, our argumentation sucks and we have no opinion.

What is the fun of staying in politics anyway?

The more radical you get, the worse it is. If we have any interest in activism, people think you only care about saving animals and rainforests. They will be surprised that you even know what a kalashnikov is.

You can talk as long as you want honey, men are essentially better in this field.

redstar2000

26th March 2004, 20:31

Is the Right "female friendly"? How bout the center? You guys make it sounds as if it's exclusively a problem of the Left.

To the "right" and the "center", it's not a problem...in their view, only a small minority of women "should" be interested in politics. You know, "traditional values" and all that.

There's been much chatter in this thread thus far about women "not liking to argue politics" or "always losing debates", blah, blah, blah.

May I suggest that not only is this approach unlikely to be attractive to women, but that political message boards are not "pissing contests".

Yes, I know they often look that way...but that's not their real "social role". What we are supposed to be doing here is "figuring things out"...trying to achieve a better and more revolutionary understanding of social reality -- and not just see who "swings the biggest dick".

The fact that most women seem indifferent to bourgeois politics and the media accounts of same seems to me a plus...they appear to grasp the fundamental irrelevance of that crap a good deal better than many male radicals.

"Should we vote for Kerry or Nader?" If women yawn at such a question, I join them in that response.

Or consider the comment about women just being interested in spending some guy's money on clothes and shoes.

Among women in the upper middle class or upper class, there's probably considerable truth in that observation...they don't have much else to do. After all, their husbands "hired" them for ostentation, for display.

Being the wife of a rich guy is a career choice -- a kind of combination model-courtesan. The pay is pretty good...but it's a very boring and mindless job.

Working class women do not buy new shoes "once a week"...or even once a year. And if they do seem to buy new shoes or clothes more often than men, keep in mind that clothing and shoe manufacturers deliberately make articles for women that are shoddier -- wear out more quickly -- than they make for men...and then charge women a higher price for the crap they sell them. :o

Remember also that women are "judged" by their appearance far more rigorously than men are. I'm sure no guy, making a decision on what to wear, ever worried that if he wore this or that article of clothing, that people would think he was a "slut" or that he'd look so "drab" that he'd fade into the background. Women have a lot more to think about when they get dressed than men do.

There's one way in which women are very much like men; both genders thrive on positive feedback. If a woman makes a contribution to a discussion and her views are ignored, she's unlikely to want to repeat the experience...especially when she notices that ten minutes later, some guy says the same thing she did and receives positive responses.

I don't mean to suggest that feminist groups are some kind of "egalitarian paradise" for women...they have their "heavy hitters" and "utility infielders" as well. But, as a woman, if you join one of those groups, you are not immediately sent to fetch coffee and donuts as a matter of routine.

I recall a sentiment that was expressed in the early women's movement (late 60s or early 70s) that went something like this: a woman must contribute twice as much as a man to a political group in order to be taken half as seriously -- fortunately, that's not difficult.

Perhaps things are better now than they used to be...but I'm skeptical that there's been much improvement.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Al Creed

26th March 2004, 20:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:22 PM
The more radical you get, the worse it is. If we have any interest in activism, people think you only care about saving animals and rainforests.
That is a good point, brought up.

The stereotyping of Female activists is stanch, in the fact that women "only care about cute and cuddly creatures." I know quite a few females that are politically aware and active, and they care alot more than just cute animals.

And, for the record, Kim Campbell was legally Prmie Minister for those...5 months? She was a do-nothing PM, a sacrificial lamb for a nation pissed off at the Progressive Conservatives, yes, but she still was a PM.

Nickademus

26th March 2004, 20:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 01:22 PM
The issue is not limited to the left.

Just look at Dune Dx and Blade’s post.

What the hell are women doing in politics? We are too busy trying to steal money from the husband. Who cares about the social classes, we are too busy polishing our nails. And when we actually care, our argumentation sucks and we have no opinion.

What is the fun of staying in politics anyway?

The more radical you get, the worse it is. If we have any interest in activism, people think you only care about saving animals and rainforests. They will be surprised that you even know what a kalashnikov is.

You can talk as long as you want honey, men are essentially better in this field.
was this directed at me?

and i'm not saying the issue is limited to the left .. but rather question how we can get more women involved in the left.

and why are men essentially better in politics? are we not aware of what women accomplished..... we got the fuckin vote for crying out loud. we went against everything men stood for and broke down the wall. can you not realize that that type of power and determination would be a major power for any political regime.

and what is it exactly that men are better at? lying? deciet? perhaps if women entered the realm of politics on a mass scale this type of dirty politics would cease to exist. have you ever considerd that?

Solace

26th March 2004, 21:07

was this directed at me?

No.

and why are men essentially better in politics?

My line was sarcastic, dear. :)

perhaps if women entered the realm of politics on a mass scale this type of dirty politics would cease to exist. have you ever considerd that?

Yes.

And I wonder if this is actually true. The "dirty politics" would not cease to exist. It might be more subtle, more hidden, less damageable on a large scale. Gender perhaps influences, but it is certainly not the cause of the "dirtiness".

Does Margaret Thatcher ring a bell?

Dune Dx

26th March 2004, 21:37

Im not saying that women will never question men again (you make it sound were some evil overlords)
but very rarely has a girl poped up with a good counter argument - infact never but I havnt been around that long so it doesnt count for much.

And what is wrong with stereo typing men and women have noticably different pyschy there are things that most women will enjoy more than men and the other way round.

Its most likely that there arnt very many left women because there not intersted. Of course you will just reply with thats sexist your saying women and men have separate roles infact your saying women should do the house work. Of course if you look above I have not said this once

Solace

26th March 2004, 22:31

but very rarely has a girl poped up with a good counter argument - infact never but I havnt been around that long so it doesnt count for much.

Talkin’ about exposing good counter arguments, you suck!

So what is it exactly? Is it the “Y” chromosomes that prevents us from being able to handle debates? Or is your two “X” chormosomes that makes you throw so wise arguments?

Why should a female be inferior to a male when it comes to politics?

Just look at Nickademus reply to your post. She kicked your ass, bastard, and you were not able to come back.

Is it one thing to say we are “uninterested” and it is another to say we can’t come up with good arguments.

revoevo

26th March 2004, 22:35

Alright, I didn't read every single post here, but whatever.

I agree that women (at least my age, I'm really thinking of teenage girls when I say this) do not seem very interested in politics on the whole. It's really a shame because I know that when any of my female peers finds something she believes in she becomes very determined to loyal to the cause.

Unfortunately, a lot of girls like being stereotypical girls. They like shopping and talking about guys and reading shitty magazines that tell them what to dress, how to act, and which celebrity to worship. They like being trendy and having nice new clothes and (god forbid!) shoes every fashion season. I guess teenage girls are bourgeoise by nature. ;)

To my female peers politics and the state of the world is very out-of-sight, out-of-mind. They are momentarily sad when they hear about people dying in wars and little children starving in Africa, but they are not immersed in it (literally or otherwise) and they soon forget.

It also seems to me girls are very likely influenced by the opinions of people they trust and admire. I live in a very conservative city and most people at my school are fairly, if not extremely, conservative. My friends tend to hold the opinions of their parents for lack of really having any opinions at all. If asked, they repeat what they parents say, but otherwise they're very disintrested. One girl I know has a father that owns a shop and she is very predjudiced against illegal immigrants because her father complains they're taking the jobs of good hard workers. If my friends DO have opinions, they're not their own, and they never bother to hear a second side of the story.

So not only are the women around me not political, but if they were they would most certaintly not be leftist. Where I live the left means voting for Kerry, and if you vote Nader you might as well be a commie. The actual left is portrayed as dirty communist scum against freedom and hamburgers and baseball and all the things our good ol' boys fought for in all those wars we didn't pay attention to in history class. As for anarchists, we have plenty of those. The Hot Topic variety...

Also, my female peers don't frequent internet message boards. That's another good point.

I'm not sure how I feel about redstar's point that the left isn't very welcoming to women. I think it's definitely more welcoming than the right...

I think women can argue and debate as well, if not sometimes better, than men. That's assuming they hold their OWN opinions and they know the facts. Like I said, this isn't easy to come by, at least not in my area at my age.

For all it may be worth, I'm female and I'm with the left. One point for us!

Nickademus

27th March 2004, 07:10

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 26 2004, 02:37 PM
Im not saying that women will never question men again (you make it sound were some evil overlords)
but very rarely has a girl poped up with a good counter argument - infact never but I havnt been around that long so it doesnt count for much.

And what is wrong with stereo typing men and women have noticably different pyschy there are things that most women will enjoy more than men and the other way round.

Its most likely that there arnt very many left women because there not intersted. Of course you will just reply with thats sexist your saying women and men have separate roles infact your saying women should do the house work. Of course if you look above I have not said this once
well my dear i believe you currently are engaged in debate with a woman who is very capable of countering your every attack. (thanx solace for also pointing that out).

and you ask what's wrong with stereotyping...... well i could tell you alot that's wrong with that. stereotyping leads to racism, homophobia, sexism and as has recently been shown ..... racial profiling (and yes that is just another form of stereotyping). indians are drunks, blacks are gangsters, whites are rich, gay men are child molesters, lesbians are butches ..... can you see where i'm going with this?! stereotyping allows people to avoid getting to know someone before they pass judgement ... and what does that really truly accomplish ... it makes someone feel better about themselves when they aren't happy with themselves.....

so perhaps you are trying to make yourself feel superior to women in some way .... you obviously don't think women will be able to stand up to you and counter your arguments effectively. and remember, just because you don't agree with a woman's counter attack doesn't mean she didn't raise a good counter-attack

Nickademus

27th March 2004, 07:12

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:07 PM

was this directed at me?

No.

and why are men essentially better in politics?

My line was sarcastic, dear. :)

perhaps if women entered the realm of politics on a mass scale this type of dirty politics would cease to exist. have you ever considerd that?

Yes.

And I wonder if this is actually true. The "dirty politics" would not cease to exist. It might be more subtle, more hidden, less damageable on a large scale. Gender perhaps influences, but it is certainly not the cause of the "dirtiness".

Does Margaret Thatcher ring a bell?
sorry solace ... i'm absolutely terrible at telling when people are sarcastic .. suggestion put sarcasm in brackets ... perhaps its also cause i don't know you well ... give me time

Al Creed

27th March 2004, 07:37

No need for those brackets, she's always sarcastic:P

and you ask what's wrong with stereotyping...... well i could tell you alot that's wrong with that. stereotyping leads to racism, homophobia, sexism and as has recently been shown ..... racial profiling (and yes that is just another form of stereotyping). indians are drunks, blacks are gangsters, whites are rich, gay men are child molesters, lesbians are butches

Testify! Stereotyping is a great curse on this society, it creates boundaries betweens us, and is a tool of those who opress to turn ourselves on each other.

Rasta Sapian

27th March 2004, 09:41

ok ok, first of all I think there is a lack of people on the left to begin with man or woman!
and yes, most women love to shop, most guys like drinking beer and having nice expensive toys!

But on the other hand, for women that are educated it is a much different story!

some of the best liberal minded and left thinkers are women, I also beleive that women have a really good understanding of the importance of social and public services, ie. health care and education!

we are both on the same side when it comes to politics, despite our sexual orientation
and it is up to all of us, to bring change for our future!

p.s. i wish my Gf was a radical babe, she is a shopper, but i love her anyway, plus she feeds me and takes care of me!

abstractmentality

28th March 2004, 00:17

i think some of the best points thus far brought up were by RedStar and Nickademus, with RS talking of how the left is unfriendly to women, and Nickademus on the relationship between stereotyping across gender, race, etc.

to further Nickademus' writing, imagine if somebody got on the board and said "why arent there many people of color in the anarchist movement?" and people replied with "well, people of color just are not interested in anarchism, they are more interested listening to hip-hop and getting arrested." what would the response be? same thing with everyday usage of phrases, such as "you guys" when refering to a group of women. imagine calling a group of black people "you whites." (the analogy may not fit perfectly, but you get the picture.) racism is a horrible thing, and i think that we can all agree on that, but sexism is also a horrible thing. and such statements as "they just arent interested" and "they are interested in buying shoes" simply reproduce male domination within society. whether you like to admit it or not, males have privilege in society, just as white people have privilege. and, when one has privilege, it must necessarily come at the expense of another, in this case women and people of color. equality is our goal.

Redstar knows his history of the movement in the US in the late 60s and early 70s well, since he participated in it, but he didnt go into detail, so i will a bit more. throughout the movement in the 60's (when i say movement i mean SDS, SNCC, the BPP, and the Chicano/a Movement), women were typically cooking and typing while the men were doing the more "political" things. furthermore, eventhough women were involved just as long as men, they didnt hold nearly their amount of leadership positions compared to men. this resulted in the feminist movement.

On november 18, 1965, (the feminist movement didnt "start" here, it had been rising because of sexism for years, i just am choosing this date to begin discussion) Casey Hayden and Mary King came out with an article called "Sex and Caste: A kind of of Memo...to a number of other women in the peace and freedom movements" (mainly directed at SDS and SNCC). in this article they wrote that "there seem[s] to be parallels that can be drawn between [the] treatment of Negroes and [the] treatment of women in our society as a whole", thus bringing in the connection between racism and sexism i wrote about above. after that they write that women "in the movement seem to be caught up in a common-law caste system that operates, sometimes subtly, forcing them to work around or outside the hiearchical structures of power which may exclude them." hence the name of the article "caste." i think the quotes explain themselves.

In the late 60's, you have the beginning of many radical feminist groups, such as the Redstockings, Cell 16, The Feminist, and The New York Radical Feminist (NYRF). Here are some examples of two of their actions. The redstockings got into a panel hearing of MEN talking about reforming abortion laws. they got up and said "Lets hear from some real experts, women." They then formed their own hearing in another room where women were on the panel. they would also, if my memory serves me, create areas where women could get abortions. they trained themselves to give abortions to women (they had hired a physician at first, but later found out he was a fake). the NYRF protested the 1968 miss america contest in atlantic city. they perform guerilla theatre, chain themselves to life size dolls of "miss america", critique high heels, bras, etc, and a few of them get into the building with a huge banner that says "Freedom for Women." this naturally made a huge spectacle, so the news cameras started to come around. the NYRF were smart though, and took their action one step further: they would only talk to women reporters. not many stations had women reporters, so they were forced to bring the women who were in "female" positions, ie typing, etc, into the reporting role.

you see, female leftist (although i do disagree with some of radical feminist theory by the above groups) have existed, they do exist, its just that we dont recognize them. why do you think i have to take a womens history class in college just to learn about women in history? its the same thing that happend in the Third World student movement in the Bay Area in the late 60's: they fought for ethnic studies programs because they werent being taught their history. now women are fighting to have their history taught (a great history i might add). Think about it. If someone completely new to leftist thought comes to you and asked you who they should read, and you give them a list of 10 standard books, how many would be by females? this is the reproduction of male privilege and dominance. what we must understand is that class is a mode of analysis, and that gender, race, and sexual preference are all modes of analysis as well. the feminist movement became splintered over class, race and sexual preference differences. the left has been splintered over the lack of analysis through gender, as we can see in this debate and what happend in the 60's.

beyond this, we must look to the socializing agents that teach some women their actions. look at a diary of a teenage female in the mid 1840's and compare it to one now. they are 100% different. why? because of socializing agents like the media or MEN constantly telling women how they should, or are suppose to be like. when we reproduce these stereotypes, we reproduce privilege.

I also beleive that women have a really good understanding of the importance of social and public services, ie. health care and education! - Rasta Sapian

i still find this problematic. you are basically reverting to difference feminism, the same analysis Phyllis Schlafly used in her conservative crap in the late 70's and 80's, defeating things like the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA). the idea is that women are fundamentally different pyschologically, which in and of itself has been HORRIBLE for the womens liberation movement. in the suffragette movement, it meant that women should get the vote because they are more compassionate then men, NOT because it is their right to vote as people. and the things go on and on from there. we have to recognize women as EQUAL to men, and difference feminism is the exact opposite.

if you couldnt tell, this is a subject that really gets on my nerves: the blindness to sexism.

For information on radical feminist from the 60's and 70's, check out:
Daring to Be Bad - Alice Echols (great overview and analysis)
Radical Feminism - edited by Anne Koedt (author of "The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm), Ellen Levine and Anita Rapone
Personal Politics - Sara Evans

for a good piece on women feminist of color, see the Combahee River Collective statement.

(and for the record, anti-women shit is not just a problem of the left. however, in republican circles, they dont really give a shit about it. a friend of mine studied the organization of two groups on campus for her womens studies class: the peace coalition (a group im involved in), and the Davis College Republicans. She noticed that in their group, women were constantly being cut off mid sentence by men, the men held all of the main leadership positions, and they basically controlled the meeting and group. Their group was made up of 66% male, 33% female. My friend asked the head of the org (a male) if the group lost 33% of its members, would it be able to survive. he responded "no." she then asked if they lost all of the women, would they be able to survive. to this he responded "yes." in one of their rallies, a women spoke on how women need to stay in "women professions" and stay away from "male professions." sexism is not a problem of just the left, just as racism and classism and heterosexism is a problem for all political variations.)

dark fairy

28th March 2004, 05:08

there is a strong point here... I mean i am the only leftie i know that's a chick or woman whatever other than that my best friend is communist and this other guy i know... THAT'S IT i don't personaly know anyone else with communist thoughts or leftie or socialist at least

Nickademus

28th March 2004, 05:36

Originally posted by dark [email protected] 27 2004, 10:08 PM
there is a strong point here... I mean i am the only leftie i know that's a chick or woman whatever other than that my best friend is communist and this other guy i know... THAT'S IT i don't personaly know anyone else with communist thoughts or leftie or socialist at least
so what do you think we can do to change that?

dark fairy

28th March 2004, 05:45

well i try to talk to people about politics first...it's hard to find people who actually care about who's running their lives...but i talk about it to people and hope that they go home wanting to question the governmet and hoping that inner leftie will rise in them... but it is really hard to get people to care about politics and communism and why capitalism is only going to screw them over in the end... but i try to tell people {who ask me about it}what it's about... or at least in my eyes...

redstar2000

28th March 2004, 07:31

If you can find a copy, I would highly recommend Robin Morgan's Going too Far...she was part of the early rise of the women's movement and this book gives, I think, a real taste of "what it was like".

Now and then over the last 30 years, a few left groups have experimented with "affirmative action"...that is, whatever kind of "leadership" bodies they establish, they write it into the rules that half the body must be female.

When I first encountered this, I thought it was "formalistic" -- that the guys would still run things and the women would be "window-dressing".

Now, I think differently. When women are "up front" in a left group on an equal basis with men, well...being determines consciousness (as I endlessly repeat. :P ). After they're there for a while, they start to assert their views in a more vigorous way and while they may be initially deferential to the men, they don't stay that way.

So if I were starting a left group now, I would specify that women members be 50% of any kind of "leading" body...and then let time do its work.

Not to mention the good effect this will have on the guys...after a while, they will be used to seeing women "up front" -- it won't be such "a big deal" to actually listen to what a woman revolutionary has to say.

It will be normal.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

pandora

28th March 2004, 07:58

Look at the July 26th Movement in Cuba, many of it's most radical and forefront members were women, but for some reason they had been empowered to be there through oppurtunity.
I think women in less traditional societies tend to be very competitive if they have the oppurtunity they will rise up quickly, it's taken the assertion of the glass ceiling, usually through men using oppurtunties such as sporting events and other forums to have political discussions without women, if women try to come along they are seen as hindrances.
This is where people need to check their intentions,
having gone through the whole punk rock revolution i saw many incredibly strong women with absolutely no support, no one knows many of these women's names Charlotte who was with HR for years, Echo, Caroline from Canada, yet they knew the men who they were with, although in reality those men could not keep pace with the energy or ideas of these women and used them for muses in their work.
We need to get beyond the muse idea and offer real leadership in solidarity.
I myself find men whom should stand in solidarity with me as a friend wanting to make me a girlfriend or wife thinking it would be fun to go through life speaking with me, but in reality, I am not the stay at home type nor traditional in anyway and want to be at the forefront myself.
So men are often off put by this but wanting to seem Leftist try to hide these intentions.
If they would accept me as an equal without trying make me a domestic life would be much easier.
Once we are all equals and stand together in making crucial decisions then if people want to settle down fine, but people would not believe the number of times i've been approached after speaking, or diving off a stage in Czech, NYC or SouthWest, traveling abroad or in even war situations. It's unbelievable.
It's like look I'm here for the same reasons you are so knock it off and work with me.

Dune Dx

28th March 2004, 14:21

Ahhhh ur missin my point probably cos im not very good and posting Im saying Girls are generally not interested - which is true dont snipe at me a load of rubbish most girls just arnt interested
then I said a reason for this in my experiance because I beat people at arguments so often they just cant be bothered to argue with me not just girls but as most of my friends are girls so it generally is girls!

and there is nothing wrong with me stereotyping girls generally arnt interested - that is my point

the thing about counter arguments was just my personal experiance and why the girls I know dont argue with me !!!!

If people are so mentally weak that they cant see through someone elses stereotyping then really they shouldnt have anykind of responsibility

stereotyping doesnt mean there arnt exeptions to this rule I dont think all girls are rubbish at arguments and I will think you are a bit stupid if you ever thought that

Dune Dx

28th March 2004, 14:37

Also never in my life have I met a person who thinks indians are drunk blacks are gangsters and so forth - anyone who said that people would question! to know why they say that then tell them that they cant generalise people like that!!!
and for these things to take such a hold the people stereotyping in such a way must have prejudices! which I dont think people saying "girls like to buy shoes" have

When I say the girls I know cant argue its not going to affect me in other way if a girl girl joined my school tommorow I would not think shes a girl she cant argue!!!

Im saying the girls I know cant argue! with out resorting to going im right im right im right or pinching me (which has covered my left srm totally in a big green bruise)

which may put off other people in the class from argueing about politics! male or female - I was stating this as a reason to why there might not be so many women on the left now I wish I hadnt as you have sent so many posts totally missing my point

for the last time I am not saying girls cant argue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Knowledge 6 6 6

28th March 2004, 14:44

Rosa luxemburg - the definition of conscious leftism at its finest.

Solace

28th March 2004, 15:15

women have usually been worse at arguments and are alot easier to beat in arguments

If I keep beating som1 who clearly cant argue that is a girl

but very rarely has a girl poped up with a good counter argument - infact never

but...

for the last time I am not saying girls cant argue!

*yawns*

Next time, when the oppurtunity arises, refrain from bullshitting. Please.

Take the Power back

28th March 2004, 15:27

I have argued with teenage girls, and usually it is a pointless arguement. Generally, young women seem to have more on their minds things to do with being "in", rather than politics. I don't know many girls who could even tell me who won the popular vote in the 2000 presidential election. I'm not saying that this is true for all young women, but only for the ones I have encountered.

mia wallace

28th March 2004, 15:46

Originally posted by Take the Power [email protected] 28 2004, 05:27 PM
I have argued with teenage girls, and usually it is a pointless arguement. Generally, young women seem to have more on their minds things to do with being "in", rather than politics. I don't know many girls who could even tell me who won the popular vote in the 2000 presidential election. I'm not saying that this is true for all young women, but only for the ones I have encountered.
unfortunately this is true. maily women aren't at all interested in politics :(
also i think it is partly society's fault cause women were traditionaly at home, caring about the house and children so it's still kinda strange to see a women who is a very important politition, or women don't take part in military actions, ... i think all that results with with smaller number of women (interested) in politics and automatically in the left.

SittingBull47

28th March 2004, 18:12

there are tons of leftist women everywhere. In fact i know more leftist girls then i do guys, but somebody before said that they don't spend as much time on message boards as guys do. that's true.

mia wallace

28th March 2004, 18:15

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:12 PM
there are tons of leftist women everywhere. In fact i know more leftist girls then i do guys, but somebody before said that they don't spend as much time on message boards as guys do. that's true.
:blink:
i don't know even one... i know few guyz who are anarchists and fewer who are comunists, but not any girl :(

Take the Power back

28th March 2004, 18:41

My last girlfriend actually had opinions on things in the news, much unlike some of my previous ones. Maybe I should have kept her?

God of Imperia

28th March 2004, 18:51

I guess if you speak about her like that she won't take you back...

Take the Power back

28th March 2004, 19:00

Originally posted by God of [email protected] 28 2004, 07:51 PM
I guess if you speak about her like that she won't take you back...
I see my error in that. I didn't mean "kept" in a wrong manner. My mistake. What I should have said was "Maybe I shouldn't have been such an asshole all the time while we went out, which drove her crazy" She was/is a smart girl, I am going to go call her. :)

Akasha

28th March 2004, 19:03

The fact that woman are not as active in politics is not a problemn of the left or the right, it is a problem with our society. We are taught to be the care-givers while the men make the difference in the world. Even as working women we are told that our place is in the home. That is how we are raised. We are also raised to be anti-women. We are taught that women are not our equals but our competition. When a woman does make it into the political scene she is most often attacked for her personality and her looks. Her platform is rarely recognized and she is not taken seriously. This is the problem. This is what we as women need to overcome. We need to stop thinking of ourselves as a weak minority. We are 52% and should act accordingly. I'll give you an example. Here in Canada there was a woman running for leadership of the Conservative Party, Belinda Stronach. Although I did not support her (obviously since she's a conservative) it was upsetting to see how she was attacked because she was pretty and blonde. They called her capital hill barbie. I barely heard anything about her policies or what she stood for. All of the criticism was towards her daddy and her looks. Young and beautiful and rich so don't listen to her. That's what women on both sides of the spectrum are up against.

mia wallace

28th March 2004, 19:04

Originally posted by Take the Power [email protected] 28 2004, 08:41 PM
My last girlfriend actually had opinions on things in the news, much unlike some of my previous ones. Maybe I should have kept her?
you definitely should

God of Imperia

28th March 2004, 19:10

Okay, you're right. There is something wrong with our society and how it treats women, but what would you want to see different?

Akasha

28th March 2004, 19:36

Originally posted by God of [email protected] 28 2004, 03:10 PM
Okay, you're right. There is something wrong with our society and how it treats women, but what would you want to see different?
I would like to see women teaching their daughters that it is more important to be smart then pretty. I would like to see our standards for beauty and intelligence change. I would like to see a true sexual revolution and not one led by Playboy and the cosmetic industry. Women need to start working together instead of being rivals of one another. Too many times they either pretend there is no problem and that life is peachy or they go on these man hating rants where no one is going to take them seriously. I could use the old stand-by that education is the key but I see many "educated" women who still fall into the same stereotypes and roles. I'll be honest...I have no clue how to fix this problem. I have a lot of ideas but how do you change something that is so bred into our society? How do you revolutionize someones mind when they don't even see that there is a problem?

abstractmentality

28th March 2004, 20:25

Akasha: great points.

to expand a little, we must look to where these opinions of where women should be come from. with knowledge of the glass ceiling, who controls most of the industries in the US? men. in the 1950's containment ideology in the US, the government and "experts" told women their role in life was that of childbearing house wife. who were/are mostly in the government and who were the "experts"? men, although there were a few token women. we must see that its is mostly men who tell women how they should run their lives.

on fixing this, i think men must recognize their privilege, relinquish their privileges that come at the expense of women, and give women the privileges that are not exclusive to one gender. this is basically the same method used in McIntosh's writing on white privilege. (once again the link between race analysis and gender analysis.) I also think RedStar2000's writing on the structure of organizations is spot on. women should always be in leadership roles (when their are leadership positions, the idea of leaders being a bit off in my book, but i suspect in redstar's too). when i first started organizing about a year and a half ago, one of the orgs i helped out with was led by mostly militant women. this, as a male, comforted me.

beyond that, i think we need to stop stereostyping. no matter how many exclamation marks you put at the end of your sentences, you are still stereotyping. Dune Dx, i think that when you say "most women cannot argue" and that they are "more interested in buying clothes" (im paraphrasing here), that you are not doing anything to help the cause, in fact i think you are doing much to help reproduce sexism, which in my book is the same as reproducing racism. with racist ideology one says "damn mexicans, always getting in gangs and doing graffiti." with sexist ideology, one says "women are only interested in shoping and make up." i see no difference. i do think that this is because you were/are being brought up in a male dominated society and have not learned how to think outside of that realm. its ok, i was like that at one time. i know plenty of white organizers that now know the privilege that they hold by being white, and now they are great allies in the struggle. also, as is typical in the US and around the world, the victims are always put to blame. i grew up with gangsters, many of whom were kicked out of high school or never graduated. i knew that the system was structured against them, and that they were indoctrinated with horrible shit, so for the most part i blamed many of the structures that push them into many of their actions. i also recognize that many of the structures in society are sturctured against women. in this sense too, when i know a highly materialistic girl, i think about where they get these notions from, who controls those notions, and see that they are the victim of oppressive systems.

Rasta Sapian

28th March 2004, 22:52

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:03 PM
I'll give you an example. Here in Canada there was a woman running for leadership of the Conservative Party, Belinda Stronach. Although I did not support her (obviously since she's a conservative) it was upsetting to see how she was attacked because she was pretty and blonde. They called her capital hill barbie. I barely heard anything about her policies or what she stood for. All of the criticism was towards her daddy and her looks. Young and beautiful and rich so don't listen to her. That's what women on both sides of the spectrum are up against.
ya man, that Straunch broad, she actually did really good for not having any experience in politics, and being an extreme right winged puppet! She finished 2nd in the leadership election with 35 percent of the votes, the winner: Harper will be and was previously the oppisition house leader.

check this link for the results: http://www.conservative.ca/display.asp?doc_id=64

p.s. the conservatives are the sellout party of canada

Nickademus

28th March 2004, 23:25

Originally posted by Rasta Sapian+Mar 28 2004, 03:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rasta Sapian @ Mar 28 2004, 03:52 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 08:03 PM
I'll give you an example. Here in Canada there was a woman running for leadership of the Conservative Party, Belinda Stronach. Although I did not support her (obviously since she's a conservative) it was upsetting to see how she was attacked because she was pretty and blonde. They called her capital hill barbie. I barely heard anything about her policies or what she stood for. All of the criticism was towards her daddy and her looks. Young and beautiful and rich so don't listen to her. That's what women on both sides of the spectrum are up against.
ya man, that Straunch broad, she actually did really good for not having any experience in politics, and being an extreme right winged puppet! She finished 2nd in the leadership election with 35 percent of the votes, the winner: Harper will be and was previously the oppisition house leader.

check this link for the results: http://www.conservative.ca/display.asp?doc_id=64

p.s. the conservatives are the sellout party of canada [/b]
broad ... i can't believe you just used that word after the posts we've been making!

my goddess!

we don't need men to give us power. ... we need men to give us the opportunity to take the power we deserve. again, look at the struggles women have already overcome .... we are a powerful powerful force and we should be doing everything to get as many women involved in politics as possible..... and its the little thing .... every single time you do something, think about how that would affect someone .... if you are a father, you tell the girls to dishes after supper while the son goes to work on the car with you ... that's sexism
when you say guys are players and women are sluts .... that's sexism
when you say women aren't physically suited to do this job ... that's sexism
when you say women belong in the kitchen .... at home (which i get a lot being a cook) .. that's sexism
when male sports have more tv coverage than female sports ... that's sexism.

just analyze every thing you do and try to think of whether or not its sexism.

and dune dx i'm not attacking you personally ... but women seeing these types of comments can be deterring because it gives a sense that we aren't wanted in the realm of politics. and you really do portray that you think women can't argue at all ..... with a few exceptions of course. i can tell you i know many many women that would fit into that 'exception' category of yours.

but it's not enough for women to start doing what ever they can and want ... men have to become more self-aware and female conscious .... stop treating women as sex symbols .... start treating us as humans ... and STOP STARING AT MY BREASTS! (bit of added humour)

29th March 2004, 09:12

Hmm...not going to read all of these posts...because...its too long, I"ll just respond to the origional post.

A. I'm female, no one invited me to the commie club, I'm going to assume its part of the phallocentric sexist old boys network if the situation isn't fixed. And you need porportional representation damnit!

B. I just don't think its true that women are in general underrepresented in left political movements.. Left movements are naturally feminist. I don't think attacking "sexism" on the left is at all healthy because marxists truely aren't sexist, and creating further divisions of male and female (or white and black) just serve to divide up what ought to be the central unifing identity: class.

Even if you look at the violent "urban guerrilla" movements of the 60s, like The Red Army Faction, Weather Underground, Symbionese Liberation Army, all had about 50/50 male and female fighters, with about 50/50 representation in their leadership. I'm sure Communism has more prominant female leaders proportionally then any other ideology, even very early in the century when gender roles where very backward. Part of communism is total liberation, a complete break with past cultural institions like the patriarchy which are founded on a different ruling class, so you would think it would have proportional representation of the actual composition of the proletariat in its political movements.

RedAnarchist

29th March 2004, 11:26

You have to have at least 50 posts, been a member for at least a month and there should be proof that you are a proper leftie, not a stalin kiddie or fake cappie would-be infiltrator.

redstar2000

29th March 2004, 16:07

I'm female, no one invited me to the commie club, I'm going to assume its part of the phallocentric sexist old boys network if the situation isn't fixed.

You've now been nominated, TragicClown, and you should be "in" shortly.

But I'll be honest with you; the thread in Commie Club for new member nominations is a disorganized mess...or at least it looked that way to me when I just checked it for the first time. There seem to be seven or eight people "in the pipeline" (now including you) and I can't figure out just by looking what's supposed to happen next.

My best guess is that one of the administrators will clear out this backlog when they get to it.(?)

Once we learn how to make Che-Lives operate efficiently, communism will be a cinch! :lol:

Marxist in Nebraska

29th March 2004, 18:56

I am late in getting into this thread. For the sake of my sanity, I will not respond directly to any of the posts in the first four pages here. This is a very important question to me, and one that does not get enough attention.

The first item I would like to address is the argument that "women are disinterested in politics." First of all, this is often phrased in a manner that suggests that all men are interested in politics. This is simply not the case. A majority of both women and men are apathetic to politics.

In my experiences, the percentage of men interested in politics is higher than that of women, and men have always outnumbered women in any political organizations that I am familiar with. I am not an expert in the matter, but it seems obvious that 85 years of having the right to vote is not enough to pull women back into the political fray after centuries of systematic disenfranchisement.

The second argument I have seen on the thread that I would like to comment on has been expressed in a few different manners. The basic idea expressed is that (all) women are somehow shallow--e.g.: only having interest in using men for their money, shopping for clothes, or in worshipping the latest pop culture heartthrob.

Again, the way this is expressed by those who argue it is misleading, in that it suggests that all women (and no men) act in this shallow manner. Clearly, this is not true. This point is so obvious that I do not even feel like I have to explain it further.

The last idea that I want to speak to is to the extent of sexism and politics, especially radical politics.

Chauvinism, in this case male chauvinism, is deeply ingrained in this society. It takes a tremendous personal effort for one to entirely overcome society's constant forces to instill racist, sexist, homophobic, classist, etc. notions in our heads. Most of us, even among the most progressive, simply lack the time and energy to unwire all of that crap.

I am not excusing individuals from holding reactionary views, but I am merely suggesting that we cannot expect everyone to abandon overnight every backward notion that they have been programmed with. Looking at radical organizations historically, women have been included to a greater extent than they were within the mainstream. Radicals have tended to attempt overcoming the trappings of "tradition"--but how many of us are 100% successful in our attempt at that?

It is absolutely vital that the left continues to be in the lead of promoting greater equality. The right works to keep women subjugated, in one sense or another. If the left will not fight for women, then why the hell should women bother to fight for the left? Mass movement is at the heart of the left--and masses will not form if 51% of humanity is unaffected by the proposed agenda.

Lefty

29th March 2004, 21:51

They're all in the kitchen, where they belong. Make me a pie, *****!

:D

Nickademus

29th March 2004, 23:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 02:52 PM
They're all in the kitchen, where they belong. Make me a pie, *****!

:D
even statements like this said jokingly (and ihope you meant it jokingly) shouldn't be accepted if we expect women to join in the battle rather than rage against it.

revoevo

30th March 2004, 02:06

Alright, I do realize I posted one of the most blatantly stereotypical posts on here. Either I didn't get mention because nobody read it, people understood I was being specific, it was generally referred to, or maybe because I am female...

But I'd like to make one thing clear: I do not believe what I said applies to all women, or even most. All I know is it applies to MANY of the women I personally know, and if I didn't make that clear, well, I have now. I also didn't mention I do infact know MANY men, probably as many as women, that act in very much the same way. I figured this was about women and the left, not men, so not much reason to bring it up.

Side note: My 100th post! Yay! :D

Nickademus

1st April 2004, 06:12

you know its interesting. everyone here (that's posted in this thread anyway) seems supportive of having women involved in politics and wants more women in the left. however, people seem to still create a sexist, macho environment in many ways .... for example, Midnight Maurader's sexist use of a term repeatedly in one thread, and someone else's comments about a threesome in a chit chat thread.

for some women comments like these will be a deterant to joining together with men forcing them to work alongside women only.

Please be more thoughtful when you make some of your posts. if you don't, you are really loosing out on a very very powerful force, and a large part of the world's population.

Rasta Sapian

2nd April 2004, 06:36

Originally posted by Nickademus+Mar 29 2004, 12:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nickademus @ Mar 29 2004, 12:25 AM)
Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 28 2004, 03:52 PM

[email protected] 28 2004, 08:03 PM
I'll give you an example. Here in Canada there was a woman running for leadership of the Conservative Party, Belinda Stronach. Although I did not support her (obviously since she's a conservative) it was upsetting to see how she was attacked because she was pretty and blonde. They called her capital hill barbie. I barely heard anything about her policies or what she stood for. All of the criticism was towards her daddy and her looks. Young and beautiful and rich so don't listen to her. That's what women on both sides of the spectrum are up against.
ya man, that Straunch broad, she actually did really good for not having any experience in politics, and being an extreme right winged puppet! She finished 2nd in the leadership election with 35 percent of the votes, the winner: Harper will be and was previously the oppisition house leader.

check this link for the results: http://www.conservative.ca/display.asp?doc_id=64

p.s. the conservatives are the sellout party of canada
broad ... i can't believe you just used that word after the posts we've been making!

my goddess!

we don't need men to give us power. ... we need men to give us the opportunity to take the power we deserve. again, look at the struggles women have already overcome .... we are a powerful powerful force and we should be doing everything to get as many women involved in politics as possible..... and its the little thing .... every single time you do something, think about how that would affect someone .... if you are a father, you tell the girls to dishes after supper while the son goes to work on the car with you ... that's sexism
when you say guys are players and women are sluts .... that's sexism
when you say women aren't physically suited to do this job ... that's sexism
when you say women belong in the kitchen .... at home (which i get a lot being a cook) .. that's sexism
when male sports have more tv coverage than female sports ... that's sexism.

just analyze every thing you do and try to think of whether or not its sexism.

and dune dx i'm not attacking you personally ... but women seeing these types of comments can be deterring because it gives a sense that we aren't wanted in the realm of politics. and you really do portray that you think women can't argue at all ..... with a few exceptions of course. i can tell you i know many many women that would fit into that 'exception' category of yours.

but it's not enough for women to start doing what ever they can and want ... men have to become more self-aware and female conscious .... stop treating women as sex symbols .... start treating us as humans ... and STOP STARING AT MY BREASTS! (bit of added humour) [/b]
lol, I was waiting for a comment on that one! :P

but it is just a word, and words not mean too much to me anyway! :)

My point was that women are making positive advances in politics!

If that means anything to you women out there, I honestly could care less about politics, they are always forcing my to vote more moderate or liberal, just to counter balance the always manipuating, tax cutting, hospital closing right!

I place more faith in people than politics!

peace yall

RedAnarchist

2nd April 2004, 11:15

Men and women are symbiotic. One cannot live without the other. This is true in all aspects of life.

If a bird had one wing stronger than the other, it would not be able to fly. If both were equal, that bird could glide freely.

Xian

16th July 2005, 00:22

I also don't want to sound sexist but in my experience women are not searching for the truth of what's outside their environment, if you can understand that. Growing up in capitalism, women are more likely to except that as the way things are for them. They adjust their heads to this (IE, accepting poverty and wealth as inevitable) and then move along.
So if I was to talk about socialism with a typical female they would probably find it interesting but to actually change, they would think "why bother, that has nothing to do with our society." I think they are more likely to accept things and then live according to the way things are.
For example, I was explaining socialism to my sister, who is in college for Public Relations and Marketing (it kills me!), and she said "then what is the meaing of life!?" She always learned that the American dream was the goal in life, that economic success meant success in life. I told her that love should be motivation, and although she thought that made sense, she said that it has no real value here. The goal of her career is going to be to make people give her company money, and that's going to be what she will work for. Her job is taking advantage of people, and I am somewhat saddened by it. Even though she admired socialism in many ways, she still had that "that's not how it is" attitude.

I think that after women are more involved in the world, and there are more female rolemodels and leaders to motivate them, there will be a spread of independent thinking and searching among them, and that's when there will be more socialist women. As for the one's that are there now, I applaud them for looking past the limits set unto them by society.

Peace.

southernmissfan

16th July 2005, 03:17

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:03 PM
The fact that woman are not as active in politics is not a problemn of the left or the right, it is a problem with our society. We are taught to be the care-givers while the men make the difference in the world. Even as working women we are told that our place is in the home. That is how we are raised. We are also raised to be anti-women. We are taught that women are not our equals but our competition. When a woman does make it into the political scene she is most often attacked for her personality and her looks. Her platform is rarely recognized and she is not taken seriously. This is the problem. This is what we as women need to overcome. We need to stop thinking of ourselves as a weak minority. We are 52% and should act accordingly. I'll give you an example. Here in Canada there was a woman running for leadership of the Conservative Party, Belinda Stronach. Although I did not support her (obviously since she's a conservative) it was upsetting to see how she was attacked because she was pretty and blonde. They called her capital hill barbie. I barely heard anything about her policies or what she stood for. All of the criticism was towards her daddy and her looks. Young and beautiful and rich so don't listen to her. That's what women on both sides of the spectrum are up against.

I think that is definitely accurate. In our society, there are predetermined "roles" or attitudes for each gender that one must comply with in order to be "normal". Women are supposed to be vein, shallow, and ditzy, while men are supposed to lack any kind of caring or emotion, and be general dominating assholes. Even further, each gender then must only desire this preconditioned attitude from those of the other sex. In our society, women are supposed to be image-obssesed Barbies who desire only to be the best trophy wife they can be. Those who break from this mold, whether in the workplace, politics, or where have you, are deemed "feminazis" who hate men and are on a power trip. It has nothing to do with women being uninterested, but the fact that they are brought up to be so from the time they are little girls. In fact, I think women tend to have a much more genuine concern for their fellow human being, possibly from a "motherly instinct" so to speak. I really think it's unfair to present the stereotypes that are in this thread, both because they product of our society and because stereotypes could just as easily be made for males, or any other group.

That being said, living in Alabama, some of the things I hear are so appalling to the point of being funny, in a very sad sort of way. Most of the people hear have been brought up in extremely conservative, fundamentalist families, and women are just supposed to cook supper and fear tha Lord! I've actually heard some asking why women fought so hard for the right to vote and other "feminist issues", because isn't life easier being a housewife? :rolleyes:

Monty Cantsin

17th July 2005, 03:29

There’s quite a few women on the left…in the socialist alliance (which I’m not actually apart of) there’s quite a few women and I suspect that’s because they make gender issues a campaign issue. In the Australian communist party the president is a woman and of the other CPA members I’ve met with members in total four one was a women (plus the President that makes 2 out of 5). It was in fact a woman who got me interested in the radical left before that I was always a dissatisfied labour supporter. And I know numerus other women of the left.

PRC-UTE

17th July 2005, 04:55

Well in the IRSP we've had female leadership, female martyrs and the IRSP was cofounded by a woman.

Commie Rat

17th July 2005, 05:00

I am very open to radical femminists, female activists even a politcally aware female,
99% of females where i live know more about shoes then they do about politics, and activism is seen as 'uncool', mentioned somethign about a PKM (type of gun) once and i got shouted down as a terrorist.

The few girls i know that are politcally active (be it center or left) can have a full politcal debate wiht me and in the end we will still probably be deadlocked,they are quite intelligent.

but unfortunaly still there are minimal numbers of girls who feel they have any power, most belive that they have to go out with the popular guy, most feel that they have to be as anorexically thin as lindsy lohan (sp), any girls that strike out to think for them selves are shut out and labled as nerds, ect ect. (this is only in my local area)

*Hippie*

17th July 2005, 09:05

I am shocked by some of the sexist comments on this thread from people claiming to be leftists! :o

I am a woman and I have yet to find a guy (besides one of my guy friends and one of my former teachers) who cares about politics either to the left or right, except on the internet I mean. On the MySpace forums, I do see a somewhat equal representation, particularly on the the Left forums, there are probably more womyn than men. On the Republican forums, I see more men for obvious reasons already mentioned.

I don't think the problem is getting their interest. I think the the solution to the problem is making them feel comfortable enough attend party meetings, join organizations, run for offices, etc after their interest has already been established. I do think their is an underlying sexism for why womyn are not getting *into* politics, but I don't think it is getting their *interest* that is a problem. I don't think the reason is womyn being "less militant" (who says they are? :unsure: ), not all political movements are militant. And I have a female friend in the military who doesn't care about politics.

As for men being on message boards more often, can I see the statistics? I believe it is true, but I am curious about the sources. It is funny, because message boards do not seem like a "typical" male thing considering the old stereotype about womyn "talking too much".

Another question is why are there are mostly people under 25 interested in politics? That is the majority demographic for all political forums I have been on. Maybe the older generation has given up the fight? :huh:

*Hippie*

17th July 2005, 09:16

Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included.
~Karl Marx

Paradox

17th July 2005, 10:06

After reading a fair amount of posts in this thread, I'd like to say that the majority of people I have met, male or female, have not been interested in politics. And the few people I have met that were political, included males and females.

As far as the stereotypes about women and clothes, men and women can both be materialistic. Name brands are marketed towards both genders, in ways that make them think they're not "cool," or "classy," or whatever, if they don't wear a certain brand or style. I recall once in high school, my friend was wearing a t-shirt that had an orange bullseye type design on it. Now the t-shirt was name brand, a hip hop brand called South Pole. But because of the bullseye on it, I asked him "Hey, you get that shirt at Target?" He actually got angry and said "*****. This is South Pole."

And as far as spending money, MC Hammer went bankrupt. And he had millions. Both genders can be wasteful with money. Both can be show offs and stuck ups. Just look at Arnold, terminator governor of California. The idiot has like 9 Hummers. He spends something like 100 thousand dollars a year, just to have his cars detailed. Both genders can be stupid like this.

But in regards to why there's a lack of women in the Left, I don't know. But the stereotypes sure don't help. But again, in my experience, I've known a few very political women. And a few political men. But the majority from both genders have been basically apolitical so far.

17th July 2005, 10:11

I think, when there is an issue in leftist politics, its mostly with some assholeish alpha male guy who just totally tries to muscle people into agreement and patronize people. Its not that all guys push all girls around or anything so much as the people who really push other leftists around like that are almost always big loud guys. Useually anarchsits lol. And its just easier for them to dismiss not-as-loud girls, or guys then it is for them to dismiss other loud obnoxious anarchist guys...its like a large physical presense gives them an edge as well.

One thing thats really really annoying though is for leftist guys to just assume that any female activists just have to be radical feminists or have to be all attuned to radical feminist issues. Or worse that they have to go around as male radical feminists, i guess to protect the 'wimmin' lol.

Black Dagger

17th July 2005, 11:21

I am shocked by some of the sexist comments on this thread from people claiming to be leftists! :o

Agreed.

After reading a fair amount of posts in this thread, I'd like to say that the majority of people I have met, male or female, have not been interested in politics. And the few people I have met that were political, included males and females.

Very important point.

I also don't want to sound sexist but in my experience women are not searching for the truth of what's outside their environment, if you can understand that.

Then you shouldn't make sexist statements. Your experience is narrow, do not project an inherent 'nature' on women based on your limited personal experiences. The vast majority of leftists that i know are women, our personal experiences are in contradiction.

Growing up in capitalism, women are more likely to except that as the way things are for them. They adjust their heads to this (IE, accepting poverty and wealth as inevitable) and then move along.

Have you heard of feminism? (a

A large part of what motivates apathy is a result of opression. Opressed people can experience a feeling of hopelessness in terms of their ability to change the prevailing conditions, precisely because they lack power in society (patriarchy) and are in turn opressed by that society- this is also further entrenched by hegemony of the ruling class- their influence on 'culture', popular discourse etc- on ideas- they attempt to condition people to obey authority. This feeling is not because of 'who they are', but because of the conditions that they are subjected to, their opression by others. Moreover, this does not prevent such people from overcoming their opression (lest working class revolution be an impossibility!), it's simply an obstacle to this change that needs to be overcome. This same process affects working class men, and other opressed groups in society, it is not something inherent to women, nor is it immutable.

riverotter

18th July 2005, 01:29

Amen black dagger. I'm surprised at this entire thread... I know many women in leftists politics. In fact, most of the left of center people I've met have been women. I'm honestly mystified by this lack of estrogen the rest of you all are seeing.

There are a lot more on-line male leftists and progresssives, but that's probably because there are more on-line men period, as has already been pointed out up-thread. Case in point, I'm one of the few (maybe the only?) political woman I know personally who politicizes on-line. As hippie said, the number of my "real world" men acquaintances interested in politics is by far outweighed by women... unlike the online world where the opposite is true.

I do think there are more men than women interested in politics overall, but, and this is just my own personal opinion, I think that difference decreases as one moves left. But maybe that's just been the situation in my own personal circles.

This is not to say that I don't see a lot of "machoitis" on the left - that my-penis-is-bigger-than-yours style of discussion that has infected the whole of our patriarchal society. The brouhaha over at Daily Kos recently is a good example: Kos was his usual dense self and pissed off a bunch of the women posters and instead of acknowleding that they may have had a point had to flex his muscles and tell them if they didn't like it to get off his boards (the infamous pie wars).

And for the record, I am a woman. And I can hold my own in an argument quite well, thank you.

Camarada

18th July 2005, 04:20

what are you talking about, the majority of women are left-wing

feminism, pro-choice, women's rights, all of these issues have been supported by many LEFT-WING women. Women tend to vote left in elections.

Funny how people on here judge the 'real life' situation by the situation on the message board. :lol:

Camarada

18th July 2005, 04:27

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 09:51 PM
They're all in the kitchen, where they belong. Make me a pie, *****!

:D
i hope that was sarcasm

Camarada

18th July 2005, 04:37

Rosa Luxemburg was one of the greatest revolutionaries ..and a woman

all the sexist bastards in this thread can take a minute to learn about her:

Rosa Luxemburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa+Luxemburg)

praxis1966

18th July 2005, 05:49

Funny how people on here judge the 'real life' situation by the situation on the message board.
Exactly my thinking. I've seen plenty of women involved in radical political activism, both right and left. But life and cyber-life (if you can call it that) are two totally seperate things. We've had similar discussions on this board, particularly in the CC wondering why there aren't more women there, and the conclusion I've come to is as follows.

The reason why women are so poorly represented around here is probably due to the medium itself. For whatever reason (and I'll get into that later) women are generally less inclined to socialize through the internet. Granted this argument is based on personal experience, but I've heard of studies to back up my points (I'm just to lazy to research them for you; anyway you people can find Lexus-Nexus and Google on your own).

Firstly, in the MIS training I've gotten through the local college, there was on average a 15 to 1 male to female ratio. I don't know whether this is because women are genetically predisposed to being disinterested in science related fields or that they are conditioned from a very young age to be more verbal and expressive, traits which lend themselves to fields like law, psychology, journalism, and even PR/advertising. Here you have ye olde nature versus nurture argument. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter of the two, however, as I think that programming of traditional gender roles is quite a bit more pervasive than transient observation would suggest.

Secondly, and I've said this in other threads, the alternative to socialization through electronic media is obviously live socialization. Take a look around the next time you're in a resturaunt. I garuntee that when there are tables with groups of three or more people, if those tables are gender homogoneous they will more often than not consist of women.

None of this, however, means that women aren't on the whole politically active or even politically minded. I'm simply saying that, for whatever reason, they choose to express their politics via different means than men.