Can we cut the crap, please?

[El Brujo]

OK, lately the ammount of spamming at ernesto-guevara.com is getting ridiculous. Ironically, most of the people fucking with it are the ones who go on about the "Stalin kiddie phenomenon" the most. Im not here to start trouble, I just don't want to see another stupid-ass "forum war" like what happened with ISF. If you don't like most of the people there being "Stalinists" or the fact that people of any ideology can post, the solution is very simple: don't look at it. If you really feel the need to try to destroy an up-and-coming forum because you don't like its nature, that is really a display of childishness.

[Edelweiss]

You know, the irony about this how you Stalin kiddies constantly say how "Che-Lives is betraying Che's ideals" etc. for not beeing not ran by conservative communists/authoritarian communists. Now you idiots have created a forum where open anti-semitism, racism and holocaust denial is tolerated, and even encouraged by some of the mods, and Nazis are fee to post, while someone who is questioning your great leader is beeing banned. So now, do you really think that Che would accept that and prefer it over Che-Lives? I guess you know know the answer by yourself. You are pathetic and so is your little sandbox you have created. I give you 6 month before your poor Che-Lives plagiat will turn inti an open NatBol/Nazi board. You guys are a joke.

[mia wallace]

i agree with El Brujo.

Malte,
i like that board and idea of equality, but am not saying it is the only way nor it means i like Che-Lives less. i agree it may be hard to keep that forum communist without banning, especially if there'd be as much members as here, but there is still a possibility it might work, so i think we should give it a try.

[Danton]

I agree with Malte..

A fantasy land for dellusional children..

[STI]

I aree with Malte. Even in OI, we can see how letting 'undesirables' go loose for too long can lead to problems (The invasion from FF, for example. If we hadn't gotten rid of them when we did, every fricking forum would've been subjected to their nonsense).

[Intifada]

i agree with el brujo, just let the stalinist kiddies do their thing, no matter how dumb it is. however something that really pissed me off is how they tolerated that nazi shit that red celtic posted under the name of rudolf hess.

[cubist]

i agree with malte, here has settled down now, i don't see any unfair restrictions or anything, its a matter of preference and the debate here is better, one reason is people like che-lives and don't want to be banned ergo they refrain from speaking oppressivly leaving for open fair debate of intelligence not childish bickering

[Individual]

I'm done with spamming. It was fun while it lasted, but I'm done with it.

Getting into all of your heads, and causing termoil in which I most certainly did was my goal.

You guys go ahead and talk about how we are creating a 'forum war', but if I recall just about the very first on e-g.com was a whine thread and "'Che-Libs' sucks, those stupid liberals". So don't come over here Berserck (by the way, you are a Nazi when you talk about Viking Rock and skinheads) and blame this flame war on us. Did we start out by posting gay porn and Nazi trash over there? Did we personally attack your web forum from the beginning? Hell no, and to tell you the truth; nobody cares.

Your guys site is booming, as I'm sure you guys can tell.

"We need members from other Boards"

"let's keep track of our total number of posts"

"we need people of other ideologies (just not one's that prove us completely ignorant and un-intelligent, like that prick Savior)"

You see where I am getting at? All of you from Che-Lives that wish to give it a try, here it is (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums). Give it a spin, have fun, and when you realize that it makes you less intelligent by even reading there, then you may look twice at Che-Lives. Think about this one for you Che-Live's members out there; how well do you think two 15 year olds are going to keep things logically under control and be able to manage the site in decent fashion? What happens when their parents stop payin a few hundred dollars a month for their little 'Nazi Project'? At 15, the two of them couldn't make enough money a month to keep this thing running, so when do you think their mommies are going to pull the cord?

For those of you from Che-Lives who have seriously gone there, have fun. I wish you the best of luck staying true to your Marxist beliefs and not letting misguided youth lead you to believe the lies about Stalin. Stay true, or stay there.

[Edelweiss]

Well spoken, AQ. But just one correction, skinhead doesn't mean Nazi! Most skins aren't fascists actually. Please don't counfound bonehead scum with skinheads.
(As far as I know ElBrujo consideres himself to be a SHARP skin (SHARP = "Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice"), but that is a joke when you look at his latent anti-semitism, his admiration of Germanic bullshit and his tolerance for fascist opnion).
Check out http://redskins.fightcapitalism.net

[RedCeltic]

You people have some nerve. First you come over here and spam our website with your racist Nazi crap and gay pornography than come here crying that we just aren’t being fair and are “Spamming” your website by exposing your sympathy for Nazis and the faults of Stalin.

All of you who want to go over to their Nazi-bol board.. fine but if you want to prevent any future hostilities I suggest you do two things first… 1) don’t come back over here and 2) stop your silly “spying” game on the commie club.

If you can not discontinue your hostile nature to Che-Lives, than you hardly have the right to come back here and ask us not to retaliate.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 08:55 PM
You know, the irony about this how you Stalin kiddies constantly say how "Che-Lives is betraying Che's ideals" etc. for not beeing not ran by conservative communists/authoritarian communists.
huh, huh. Real fucking cute. First of all, I don't fit into your "stalin kiddie" description, so I would appreciate it if you cut the references to me. Second of all, people are not complaining about this site not being run by "conservative communists" but because of the biased, sectarian attitude toward "Stalinists." and we simply find it ironic that it is Che's ideology that is being censored.


Now you idiots have created a forum where open anti-semitism, racism and holocaust denial is tolerated, and even encouraged by some of the mods, and Nazis are fee to post, while someone who is questioning your great leader is beeing banned.

Proof, please.


So now, do you really think that Che would accept that and prefer it over Che-Lives?

I think anyone would prefer an open forum over something that censors his or her own ideas.


I guess you know know the answer by yourself.

Yes I do.


You are pathetic and so is your little sandbox you have created.

I have created? I am neither an admin nor a mod at that forum and have joined relatively recently. I haven't been hostile in this thread and am trying to stop the childishness, so quit fucking with me!


I give you 6 month before your poor Che-Lives plagiat will turn inti an open NatBol/Nazi board. You guys are a joke.

*yawn*

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:20 AM
You guys go ahead and talk about how we are creating a 'forum war', but if I recall just about the very first on e-g.com was a whine thread and "'Che-Libs' sucks, those stupid liberals".
They were saying shit in their own forum, not attacking this one. There is the difference, buddy.


So don't come over here Berserck (by the way, you are a Nazi when you talk about Viking Rock and skinheads) and blame this flame war on us. Did we start out by posting gay porn and Nazi trash over there? Did we personally attack your web forum from the beginning? Hell no, and to tell you the truth; nobody cares.

Gay porn and Nazi trash? I am unaware of what happened here for some months, but If it is a retaliation for the spamming, what do you expect?

BTW: You obviously don't know shit about skinheads, so please shut the fuck up.


Your guys site is booming, as I'm sure you guys can tell.

"We need members from other Boards"

"let's keep track of our total number of posts"


"we need people of other ideologies (just not one's that prove us completely ignorant and un-intelligent, like that prick Savior)"

Well, its a new board, is it not?

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 02:43 AM
As far as I know ElBrujo consideres himself to be a SHARP skin (SHARP = "Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice"), but that is a joke when you look at his latent anti-semitism, his admiration of Germanic bullshit and his tolerance for fascist opnion).

1. Do I need to destroy you in another debate about my "anti-semitism"? Im sorry Im not an ADL cronie that supports one form of ethnic cleansing and racial superiority over another, I must be a mean ol' anti-semite.

2. Being interested in "Germanic bullshit" is fascist? Wow, you seem to have a case of self-hatred. Since when is being interested in Nordic mythology make someone a racist? Im interested in Vodun too, by the way, I guess that must make me a Farrakhan-warshipping NOI millitant then, huh? I am a historian, I can't help it.

3. There is a fine line between being objective and sympathizing with somebody else's opinion. It's called knowing your enemy.

Again, I am not here to start trouble. Don't piss me off.

[Individual]

They were saying shit in their own forum, not attacking this one. There is the difference, buddy.

This is my point. They act as if they have no problem with this site, and as if we started by attacking them. Nobody spammed their site. They came here and posted gay porn, and a bunch of b/s about Hitler and 'kill the jews'. And you wonder why I call all of you Nazis? They sat there and agreed with RedCeltic and his 'test' about Nazis. You've said it yourself, you don't know everything that's happened, so where can you get off by defending that 'Che-Lives started it'.


You obviously don't know shit about skinheads, so please shut the fuck up.

I deeply apologize.


Well, its a new board, is it not?

Sure. That wasn't my point. My point was this:


Your guys site is booming, as I'm sure you guys can tell



Proof, please.

Savior, Enigma (no, Enigma did not troll. Disagree, but you are only lying to yourself)


think anyone would prefer an open forum over something that censors his or her own ideas.

That is some open forum. They even except Nazi ideas, they must be open. (Just don't attack Stalin, and then defend yourself.)

This is all I have left to say about this;

For those of you posting over at e-g: Do you really want to post under administrators that give away your IP. The administration posted someone's private PM for everyone to read. The administration will report you to your ISP. The administration will ban you if you speak out against them, and then post a defense to all of the attacks they provide.

If this sounds like your kind of thing, go for it. Personally I don't want my IP given away, my private Personal Messages posted for the world, or to be reported to your ISP. Then after they do all that, they will likely ban you.

You decide how open this site is. Atleast you only get restricted here for spamming, not an outright ban. Things work in a democratic fashion unless a ban is positively needed. The administrators aren't immature. And our administrators won't post all of your personal information for the world to see.

Decide for yourself. ;)

[RedCeltic]

Gay porn and Nazi trash? I am unaware of what happened here for some months, but If it is a retaliation for the spamming, what do you expect?

Nope, Bolshivika and Death (CheateN) attacked this board long before AlwaysQuestion, or I knew about ernesto-guevara.com. Malte sent a stern warning to Bolshivika about his comments on Jews and in responce Bolshivka posted Nazi crap in OI and Death posted gay porn in the commie club.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 09:56 AM
This is my point. They act as if they have no problem with this site, and as if we started by attacking them. Nobody spammed their site. They came here and posted gay porn, and a bunch of b/s about Hitler and 'kill the jews'. And you wonder why I call all of you Nazis? They sat there and agreed with RedCeltic and his 'test' about Nazis. You've said it yourself, you don't know everything that's happened, so where can you get off by defending that 'Che-Lives started it'.
One or two people may have come to spam, how is that everyones fault and how are we all "Nazis"? Apart from that, Ill have to see what happened exactly. Still, the insistance on continuing this is pretty stupid.


I deeply apologize. To me a skin head is a white supremacist, that whether or not they are official Nazis, they are close enough. Your skinhead 'clan' may be different, but how different can it be?

It can be diametrically opposed, that's what. How different can these people be from Nazis?:

http://www.angelfire.com/id/eje8/skinhead_2520hooligan.jpg

http://www.thetemplars.com/blackpool.jpg

http://www.thetemplars.com/Phil2.jpg

http://www.thetemplars.com/perry2.jpg

http://mural.uv.es/jocaman/foto9.jpeg

http://mural.uv.es/jocaman/foto6.jpg

http://redskins.fightcapitalism.net/images/july4protest01.jpg

http://redskins.fightcapitalism.net/images/Quebec01web.JPG

Lesson of the day: Don't slag off something you don't know shit about.




Well, its a new board, is it not?

Sure. That wasn't my point. My point was this:


Your guys site is booming, as I'm sure you guys can tell

Yes, your point was that there is barely any traffic and the reason is, it's a new board. Traffic tends to build up over time.


Savior, Enigma (no, Enigma did not troll. Disagree, but you are only lying to yourself)

1) I didn't support Enigma's banning, or yours at first, if you bothered to read my post over there.

2) People are alledgedly banned for starting trouble, not for their ideology. Geist is still there, so is EastIsRed and nobody has ever considered banning them.


That is some open forum. They even except Nazi ideas, they must be open. (Just don't attack Stalin, and then defend yourself.)

As I said, observe some of the non-"Stalinist" posters other than yourself and Enigma. Urban Rubble has now joined.

[Individual]

Honestly, I have given them one final chance to prove themselves. I am done with it, over, not going to think about it after today.

As for the Nazi comments all over e-g. None of those were directed at anyone but those that run that board. My personal comment to you about skinheads; I do apologize as I am under-informed and as much as I preach about it I have gone against my main rule; Don't say something unless you know what you are talking about. So for that I have informed myself of your cause, and it seems credible. I do abstract my Nazi comment directed towards yourself.

Enigma and I were restricted because we both have good arguments. Obviously not all of our posts were direct arguments towards Stalin. However any 'flaming' that was done, I can tell you that it was in response to someone's comment directed to ourselves. Is standing up to an attack not right for someone that disagrees with Stalin? The only other person who is speaking loud about what is going on is Urban. Give it time, he'll be next unless he stops. All of the others who disagree with Stalin don't make a blunt stance about it, therefore they were not banned. All of this was personal a personal vendetta those kids had, when Enigma went there, the first thing that happened was a proposal for a ban because of Enigma's political beliefs and statements on this site! Did you miss that part?

I am not trying to narrow you out, personally I hope Bolshevika and Death read this, and maybe they will change their ways in the name of Marxism. Can I expect them too, or even understand? Probably not.

I'm done with the situation. I have given Bolshevika and Death one last chance to prove themselves, and it's in their hands.

[Urban Rubble]

Cool pics El Brujo.

Anyway, can you go ask you friends why in the fuck I was banned ? I did nothing but debate with them, yes, some of it was debate on banning people, but most of it was on political issues. I did not spam, excessively flam or any of that. The only reason I was banned is because I said reporting Ortega is stupid, and I asked for AQ to be reinstated. Now, that would have been fine, but I'm not a Stalinist so they banned me. Ask them why they allow double standards to persist.

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

AlwaysQuestion

At 15, the two of them couldn't make enough money a month to keep this thing running, so when do you think their mommies are going to pull the cord?


Ugh what a nice leftist you are, if they had more money that would make them better right?

[Individual]

Ugh what a nice leftist you are, if they had more money that would make them better right?

Now I ask how you comprehended that out of this:


At 15, the two of them couldn't make enough money a month to keep this thing running, so when do you think their mommies are going to pull the cord?

That statement meant that the two of them could not make enough money to keep InvisionBoard, the webserver, and .com name.

Not that they would be better off with more money?

With minimum wage, and child labor laws, they would not be able to hold a job and pay the bill every month. Meaning that obviously their parents pay and/or help pay for their 'project'.

Honestly, how did you get that assumption out of my statement.

[El Brujo]

AlwaysQuestion: Fair enouph. Live and let live.

Urban Rubble: You've been unbanned: http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/inde...p?showtopic=392 (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=392)

[Edelweiss]

Proof, please.

There is no prrof needed. You have a National Bolshevik, a holocaust denier and open anti-semite in mod position, aswell a guy who is advocating eugentics. What more do I have to say? Your forum has as much to do with leftist ideas as ***************.

And El Brujo, your "know your enemy" apology is ridiculous and blatantly naive and careless. But go ahead, give the scum a platform to spread their bullshit propaganda, I'm shure Che would appreciate it. Really, it needs more to "know your enemy" than discussing respectfully with him on the Internet. It's totally counter-productive, why the fuck can't you see it? There are actually very few forums on the Internet where fascist opnion is tolerated, adding more is nothing but helping THEIR cause. If you would have any remote idea how effective anti-fascist work works, you would agree to me.

Also, you have really NEVER destroyed me in any debate on anti-semitism, so far I have always quiet clearly revealed YOUR obvious anti-semitism, which culminated into your statement that Saddam Hussein is not an anti-semite(!), I guess you are only recognizing an anti-semite when he wears a Nazi unifrom and shouts "gas the Jews". And tell me, where the fuck do you see "ethnic cleansing" in the middle east? You have appearently no idea what "ethic cleansing" means.

Furthermore, I have no self-hatred. I never said that being interesred in nordic myths is fascist. But IMO nationalist viking rock, and SHARP doesn't go together, I can't imagine of any SHARP skin with some Odin badge. This whole nordic myth thing is a domain of the boneheads, at least where I'm from. BTW: Malte is a nordic, non-christian name (yes it's my real name). Bow down to me! :D

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 10:32 AM

Proof, please.

There is no prrof needed. You have a National Bolshevik, a holocaust denier and open anti-semite in mod position, aswell a guy who is advocating eugentics. What more do I have to say? Your forum has as much to do with leftist ideas as ***************.
Oh, how nice. No Proof needed? Maybee because you have no proof. Direct me towards any instance where I "denied the holocaust" supported eugenics or supported NB? NB hardly even exists outside of Russia, you idiot. The whole "American National Bolshevik" thing was a joke by Rhys and his crew in The Phora.


And El Brujo, your "know your enemy" apology is ridiculous and blatantly naive and careless. But go ahead, give the scum a platform to spread their bullshit propaganda, I'm shure Che would appreciate it. Really, it needs more to "know your enemy" than discussing respectfully with him on the Internet. It's totally counter-productive, why the fuck can't you see it? There are actually very few forums on the Internet where fascist opnion is tolerated, adding more is nothing but helping THEIR cause. If you would have any remote idea how effective anti-fascist work works, you would agree to me.

*yawn*, more rhetoric about giving them a "platform." Do you realise how ridiculous this "internet war" is? By buying a few megs of somewhere in cyberspace and not letting them use it, do you really think your winning the big war on fascism? Not only are you discouraging debate which could make them change their opinion, but it is completely pointless because they can and will start their own forums/websites/etc. and will continue spreading their views. The place to combat the fascists is in the streets, not playing internet touph boy. By reading the oposition's opinion, you learn more about them as well as how to stop them. Ive learned a lot about their rhetoric and how flawed it is by posting in the Phora, if you are such a dedicated "anti-fascist," so should you.


Also, you have really NEVER destroyed me in any debate on anti-semitism, so far I have always quiet clearly revealed YOUR obvious anti-semitism, which culminated into your statement that Saddam Hussein is not an anti-semite(!), I guess you are only recognizing an anti-semite when he wears a Nazi unifrom and shouts "gas the Jews".

Yes I did. Look at our OI conversation about Stalin joining the US in WW2. Also, show me non-zionist/neo-conservative proof that Saddam is an "anti-semite." As far as Im concerned, there was a Jewish comminity in Iraq that faced no religious persecution as it was a secular state. Your obsession with "anti-semitism" is extremely annoying. I am anti-zionist, not "anti-semitic" so quit your rambling.


And tell me, where the fuck do you see "ethnic cleansing" in the middle east? You have appearently no idea what "ethic cleansing" means.

In Palestine, that's where. And yes, I do know what ethnic cleansing is.


Furthermore, I have no self-hatred. I never said that being interesred in nordic myths is fascist.

"...ElBrujo consideres himself to be a SHARP skin... but that is a joke when you look at his...admiration of Germanic bullshit" ~ Malte


But IMO nationalist viking rock, and SHARP doesn't go together,

1. Not all Viking Rock is "nationalist"

2. I just like the music

3. Tell that to these folks: http://www.holmgang.es.vg/


I can't imagine of any SHARP skin with some Odin badge.

I can't imagine anyone with an Odin badge.


This whole nordic myth thing is a domain of the boneheads, at least where I'm from.

Not where Im from, and apparently, not in a lot of other places.


BTW: Malte is a nordic, non-christian name (yes it's my real name). Bow down to me! :D

I am from Che's country, bow down to me. :P

[RedCeltic]

Furthermore, I have no self-hatred. I never said that being interesred in nordic myths is fascist. But IMO nationalist viking rock, and SHARP doesn't go together, I can't imagine of any SHARP skin with some Odin badge. This whole nordic myth thing is a domain of the boneheads, at least where I'm from. BTW: Malte is a nordic, non-christian name (yes it's my real name). Bow down to me!

Yeah, as a Pagan Myself I'm always quite skeptical of Asatru, and other nodric following Pagans. Most is fairly innocient in itself but "reconstriction religions" in general or "Neo-Paganism" sort of is an open door for nationalistic and supremist ideologies... Trying to "Stay true" to Nordic or Tutonic religious traditions rather than recognising the equal value and incorperation of say African, Native-American, Celtic or whatever traditions... does make me a bit uneasy.

I've surely made use of nordic traditions in the past, but am hardly a "purist" as I rather follow a spiritual ideology that believes that all pre-christian tribal religions are of equal value and are only different aspects of the same religion. In truth it doesn't matter what you call your "gods" as they aren't actual real beings in the same sence that Jews, Christians, and muslims consider them to be.

I'm approched by people now and then who want to learn about Pagan beliefs and I'm more than happy to teach people on it. The one and only time I ever turned anyone down however was someone who said that they were of Celtic decent and would like to learn a religion that is true to his "blood" because he thinks that since Jesus was a Jew that only Jews should follow him.... etc.... I told him that I didn't think I could teach him what he wants to know, because my religion is actually very modern, very multi-ethnic, and very different from people who want to live in Iron age Europe!

[Comrade Zeke]

Ok someone please expalin to me what the fuck this new "Stalinist site" is???? All I know it is run by a bunch of Stalinist 15 year olds who are obbessed with the guy?
Malte, and Always question if Che-Lives is against these dudes then why would you join there sick twisted forums???

Red Celtic what Pagan religion are you???

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

They are talking about http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/ which is a forum that is essentially run by people with pro-Stalinist views. Just go there and you will see.

As a moderator there I would just like to point out that I am a Social Democrat and have tried to make the place more tolerant, just so you know it isnt a purely Stalinist site.

[RedCeltic]

Red Celtic what Pagan religion are you???

Eclectic Wicca

[Edelweiss]

El Brujo, first of all, I wasn't speaking about you concerning holocaust denial and egenetics. If you want names: Bolshevika is convinced that the holocaust didn't happen like "they teached us" and is trying to proof that with fascist sources like the "Leuchter report". He has also expressed sympathies for National Bolshevism. (BTW: National Bolshevism has a long tradition, and is certainly NOT limited to Russia). Ixabert is in strong support of eugenteics. Both are mods on your fake leftist board.

And you are totally missing the point about what I mean when I say that you shouldn't provide them a platform to spread their propaganda. This is really not about a "cyber war". The point is that you can't seperate "real live" and "internet live" the way you are doing it. Those are not two seperate parallel words, with no connections. The Internet has become one of the most important, if not THE most important means of recruiting for the fascists. Again, by giving them a place to be, and by allowing them tp publish Nazi propaganda on your forum, you are helping THEIR cause, no matter how you twist it. Especially if you allow it on a forum of a Che Guevara site, which is giving the fascist chance to reach "clients" which would be difficult to reach from their own. Of course they have already used that strategy by themself in the past by creating sites with leftist messages on the surface, but with fascist propaganda inside. But with naive idiots such as yourself, they don't even need to make the effort by themself.
You don't really need to allow Nazis on a (fake-)leftist forum to know more about their rhetoric and their way of thinking. They have enough publications and enough of their own forums where you can do it.

I already have provided you proofs for Saddam Husseins anti-semitism, a quick look at the old website of the former Iraqi govenment would have been enough, but I'll give you more hard proofs for it, which even a totally ignorant as you will have to acknowledge: Saddam Hussein and his German embassy had good and friendly contacts with the German neo-nazi group KDS. They where invited into the Iraqi embassy, and the head of the Nazi group even gave a medal of their group to the Iraqi embassor. It is obvious that what is conneting them is their anti-semitism (Source (http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:IpyCNIOrNboJ:de.indymedia.org/2002/10/32013.shtml+kds+hussein&hl=de&ie=UTF-8)). Futhermore, Saddam Hussein had friendly contacts with radical right-wingers and anti-semites such as Jörg Haider (Austria) and Le Pen (France). Besides, the high reward that Saddam Hussein was paying every family of a suicide assasin isn't that subtle, it is?

And even if you are tending to dissociate yourself from your too obvious anti-semitic comments such as "the Jews are exploiters of the working class", a comment which is nothing than pure, modern anti-semitism, it is quiet clear that you are buying a lot into the short-minded view of capitalism, which basicly is just "Jews=capitalism" in the end.

About "etnic-cleansing": You know damn good that what is happening in Palestine is far away from "ethnic cleaning", which means the organized anhiliation of a whole ethnic group. What Sharon is doing in Palestine is criminal and cruel, but it hasn't do anything with ethnic cleansing as it happned in Rwanda or the balcans. The only ones who are highhandedly killing others just because they are member of the wrong religion are the fanatics of Hamas, Al Aksa etc.

[Intifada]

check this shit out. whoever is doing this should stop right now. malte you cannot condone this crap.

link (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=436)

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:42 PM
check this shit out. whoever is doing this should stop right now. malte you cannot condone this crap.

link (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=436)

ROFL!!! I praise the audacity and the will power, but not the sentment.

[AC-Socialist]

Theyve posted the same crap about 30 times!!!! talk about flooding, this has to be a record!

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 08:42 PM
check this shit out. whoever is doing this should stop right now. malte you cannot condone this crap.

link (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=436)
If this is really coming from a Che-Lives member (I doubt that, it's more like part of the childish games of e-g.com), I do call that member to stop it. This is really NOT our level...

[Saint-Just]

My politics teacher, who is Jewish, told me Sharon was responsible for massacring Palestinians in the Lebanon. Although whether that is ethnic cleansing or not I don't know.

Malte, Ixabert may talk about Eugenics but you know he does change his ideas quite regularly, and he is quite young. Bolshevika does subscribe to elements of holocaust denial history. But not to the extent that he is saying only 2-3 million died.

[BOZG]

Good day Doctor. We are happy to you have you.

14/88 !!!11


The above is a reply to a new member called Dr. Mengele from the one and only J. Jordan. Hardline communist we have.

[Individual]

Mind you Dr. Mengele is a Nazi. ;)

What a warm welcome that was too.

I must admit, I'm really starting to believe Bolshevika's claims that he is not a Nazi. :wacko:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 10:53 PM
Mind you Dr. Mengele is a Nazi. ;)

What a warm welcome that was too.

I must admit, I'm really starting to believe Bolshevika's claims that he is not a Nazi. :wacko:
ROFL.

Fool. i juss b playen aight? don't go to Che-Libs saying "THE ADMIN IS A NAZI". ~J. Jordan

He was joking. The two 1's for exclamation marks suggest that he was joking. ~Ixabert

[Enver Hoxha]

As I've said before it seems to me that both 'sides' in these rather petty arguements are stuck in something of a slanging match which involves nothing more than useless words which are supposed to be insults and not to mention refusing to budge from their own pre-conceived ideas about various people even when there are no facts to support there claims.

I've looked around at the new site and I haven't seen any cases of 'National Bolshevism and Holocaust Denying'. Maybe it was true, but a far more intelliegent thing to do would be for those making that charge to instead say, 'look I've seen material on that site that seems to be Fascist propaganda. Action should be taken against those members/member who post such rubbish and while this goes on I wont be supporting that site.'

See quite simple and I'm sure you can work with the mods over there in fighting Fascism. That should also go for the mods on that board, want to work together in making sure Fascist articles dont get published it's perfectly workable. Dont reject a genuine helping hand just because 'he's a pot-smoking hippy'.

Now as a 'Stalinist-Kiddie' (another useless new phrase which works at being annoying) I'm naturally inclined to back the 'Stalinist' perspective on this. So I'll make my criticisms of these boards set up over the last year or so now.

First of all as I've said before there is the problem of stereotyping and dogmatic mudslining. Just because there a Trot or Anarchist doesn't mean they haven't got something intelliegent to say. Now I have also noticed a 'tolerance' of somesought of soft-Fascism. Comments which are sympathectic to folks like Saddam and Milosevich are frankly not only playing into the hands of the 'Liberal gang' over here but seem to me to be somewhat irrlavent to anything. This isn't to say that there shouldn't be support or debate on matters, in particular it's great that folkes who come from a such a wide range of groups (such as Workers World, RCP, RIM and numerous others) aswell as individuals who support various groups and nations should disscuss and exchange ideas. Debates around specific ideological matters are something not for this disscussion. They should freely be encouranged.

A criticism of that board in particular is that a debate around Juche and Kim Jong II was restricted and seems to of dissapeared simply because it raised potential criticisms. Not the way to go. No doubt there are other faults but it seems to me the trouble here lies with the other side.

Here we have one member who joined the board freely admitting that his/her sole intention was to wind up and play with 'Stalinist kiddies minds'. I must say it's great that this member has decided to give 'the board another chance' but perhaps you ought to change your attidude this time around. And also what purpose does it serve to have a member join and pose as a Nazi simply to prove some point which only increases all this nonsence?

It seems to me that this board started out with among other things a slogan of 'freedom of debate and ideas' or something. It's very apparent that posing as a Nazi was simply meant to push this slogan and put the mods over there in a very difficult and confusing position. In the end it's nothing more than being pathectic. You prove no point and serve no purpose by doing that.


El Brujo, first of all, I wasn't speaking about you concerning holocaust denial and egenetics.

This is precisly the problem. Instead of highlighting who actually has these views and correctly criticising them you do it towards anybody who happens to come in opposition to your view. It's a attidude shared by most people of whatever 'side' but I hope you can see it is only counter-productive.

I also feel it neccessary to add that a year or so ago there was a ban carried out on simply anyone who upheld Joseph Stalin. There was no reason given, no warning and it was obvious that no one had broken any rules. To thus be complaining that other boards 'dont allow criticism of Stalin' is a tad hyprocritical. If members have been banned from that site simply for having a oppossing view then that should equally be condemmed.

Again I dont deny that the 'Stalinist Kiddie' side shares many of the flaws 'The Liberal hippy' side does in this dispute. From my perspective what is annoying is people preventing a more open and intelligent debate by simply saying 'Oh but Stalin was evil and your all Authoritarian' when you have nothing to back it up. And just because some hide this through a more intelliegent sentence doesn't change this fact. It's not helpful when there a people saying 'I know that' without taking into account the sources.

I see nothing wrong with criticism of the past, not only is it good and helpful it's a neccessary to help move on in the future. Anyway I'm about to be kicked of this computer so good day to you alls.

Remember just lets forget the stereotypes and the dogmatic insults and get on with the intelliegent disscussions which I'm sure we are all capable of.

So Fuck the lot of you! :D

[Individual]

So Fuck the lot of you!

To tell you the truth, I really don't care how much you've contributed to Che-Lives, nor how big your 'following' is. What you just said is contradicting your "far more intelliegent thing to do" reccomendation.

You obviously don't know the jist of what happened/is happening between the two sites, and you've even admitted that 'maybe you haven't seen it', therefore where do you get off lecturing us about 'intelligent and mature' things to do?


See quite simple and I'm sure you can work with the mods over there in fighting Fascism

Another example of your ignorance. Incase you did not notice, the mods and admins are the only problem at that site. I'm not very eager to work with a mod that is so caught up in their own ignorant beliefs that nothing is to change. The administrators at e-g are the ones that are liberal with Fascism. Therefore what good does it do to work with them in the fight against Fascism?


Now as a 'Stalinist-Kiddie' (another useless new phrase which works at being annoying) I'm naturally inclined to back the 'Stalinist' perspective on this.

The 'Stalinist Kiddie' stereotype only falls to those that fit. While you may not be an ignorant 'kiddie', and you may actually have an understanding of Stalin. You must admit, as most knowledgable Stalinists on Che-Lives do, that many young kids have some sort of fancy idolization of Stalin. These kids are ignorant to Marxism, they are ignorant in that they deny any wrong doing of Stalin, and they are ignorant that they are not a super genius on the subject of politics period. While you may not fall under this category, many do. You really should only take offense to this term if you feel that you fall under its perimeters. So do you? ;)


Just because there a Trot or Anarchist doesn't mean they haven't got something intelliegent to say

Agreed. However just because you are a Stalinist doesn't mean you have something intelligent to say either. ;)

It really isn't to hard to pick out the people that know their politics and have a grasp on what society is really like. This is where it is left up for you as an individual to decide whether you even acknowledge what someone has to say. Some people aren't too bright, therefore it is left up to you to decide whether it is worth a response to correct them, and help them, or to flat out ignore what they had to say.


A criticism of that board in particular is that a debate around Juche and Kim Jong II was restricted and seems to of dissapeared simply because it raised potential criticisms. Not the way to go. No doubt there are other faults but it seems to me the trouble here lies with the other side.

As the saying goes, arguing Stalin with a Stalinist is similar to that of arguing the Bible with a Catholic. You can't win, nothing will get through to them.

This is where there is a lack of the opposing side. I have my arguments towards Stalin, however when the counter argument is either a change of subject, or a flat out denial, I can't seem to push myself to go on. There is no winning a Stalinist's opinion. Therefore I am not going to get frustrated over an ignorant teen, when I have the choice of leaving. This is why there is a small opposing side.


Here we have one member who joined the board freely admitting that his/her sole intention was to wind up and play with 'Stalinist kiddies minds'. I must say it's great that this member has decided to give 'the board another chance' but perhaps you ought to change your attidude this time around.

I went back to change my opinion. Hence my fifth member name 'QuestionAlways' (mispelled, Q was an O). While I'll admit that in many of my other names, I had attacked the admin.s. Reasoning of course was in light of my restriction, Bolshevika (JJordan) and Death (Cheater) felt the need to lie about things in which I had said, actions in which I had supposedly commited, and put their own propoganda on the entire incident. I decided to give them on last try. I went back, posting absolutely no one line replies. I simply defended my, and others opinions, only to be banned within three posts because I could out debate the admin's and caught them in a blatant lie.

There chance of proving themselves is over with me. There is no change of opinion, they have had plenty of chances for that. Do you let a bank robber out of jail only to go rob another bank 5 times in a row? Do you let your child voice his defense after sneaking out of his room after repeatedly being told not to for five nights in a row? Do you suddenly believe the president after lying and being caught repeatedely? No, why would I suddenly change my entire opinion?


I also feel it neccessary to add that a year or so ago there was a ban carried out on simply anyone who upheld Joseph Stalin. There was no reason given, no warning and it was obvious that no one had broken any rules. To thus be complaining that other boards 'dont allow criticism of Stalin' is a tad hyprocritical. If members have been banned from that site simply for having a oppossing view then that should equally be condemmed.

And again; your lack of understanding and you ignorance on the subject prevails. Che-Lives does not deny banning Stalinists. The criticism of e-g.com is that they had clearly stated that they respect all views, they respect and tolerate all opposition. This isn't about comparing their bans with Che-Lives. This is about catching them on a lie, proving their own contradictions. E-g.com consistantly complained about Che-Lives banning Stalinists and that they would not do the same, and would focus on not banning period. What has happened; members have repeatedly been banned merely because we could defeat all of them in an argument. They couldn't take the punishment, yet they could surely give it. They accused us of trolling, and attacking them. I dare you to go read all of their posts, then come back and tell me who attacked who first, and who only responded to the attacks given. Also note how many spam, and one-line posts present from the active members at e-g.com, then compare that with any single one of the Che-Live's members that have gone there. ;)


From my perspective what is annoying is people preventing a more open and intelligent debate by simply saying 'Oh but Stalin was evil and your all Authoritarian' when you have nothing to back it up

Or how about just the opposite. When these 'Stalinist Kiddies' will believe any/everything good that they hear about the USSR, without taking into account that what they are reading is positively biased. For christs sake, the kids believed an article about Castro molesting a child that was most certainly propoganda. This was propoganda that not even the US would stoop so low to write about Castro. Yet just about all of them believed it. Included in this ignorant bunch was a self-proclaimed History major. :blink: . Mind you this history major is the one that consistantly comes out with 'you dumbass', 'fuck off', 'you dumbass' remarks. Some history major huh?


Remember just lets forget the stereotypes and the dogmatic insults and get on with the intelliegent disscussions which I'm sure we are all capable of.

Go post that statement on E-G.com. ;)

[Edelweiss]

Enver Hoxha, for me this is really not about Stalin at all. I have no problem with Stalinists such as you, Comrade RAF, Marcel etc. You don't fit inro the "stalin kiddie" sheme I have given in the CC. But I think it is in your very OWN intrest to disassciate from self-proclaimed comrades (they guys who are running e-g.com) of you who indeed are in favor fragments of holocaust denial theories, anti-semitism or eugenetics. Also, I think you would agree to me that allowing fascists to post on a "Stalinist board" isn't in your sense.

[elijahcraig]

Why did they make another site which is very close to the name of this board?

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 05:53 PM
Mind you Dr. Mengele is a Nazi. ;)

What a warm welcome that was too.

I must admit, I'm really starting to believe Bolshevika's claims that he is not a Nazi. :wacko:
gee... someone posts as "Dr. Mengele" and you think he might.. possibly.. in some way be a Nazi?

Hell.. Dr. Mengele was only the sickest fucking doctor in Nazi Germany.... :angry:



Anyway, we need to crack down on this crap now it's getting out of hand here.

[Enver Hoxha]

Malte I'd agree absoblutly that what this boils down to is nothing to do with any particular leftist perspective. It's people acting like children.

I do and have previously distance myself and argue with those upholding various Fascist ilk.

I would just be wary of brandaning the label of anti-semitism and such around when that may not be the case. People do tend to make ignorant statements here and there aswell as easily being misinterpreted on a internet board. Hell I could quite easily quote many a Non-'Stalinist Kiddie'. One has called the Holocaust 'Stalinist propaganda' and another once said 'Sometimes I think Hitler had the right idea'. Now I seriesly doubt these people meant that, but you get my point yes?

Yes you are right that alot of these 'Stalinist Kiddies' suffer from being interpreted in the wrong sought of way. They have to take there share of the blame for that, but my opinion is that it's unfair to be highlighting there ignorance while ignoring others because they are of a different leftist ideology.

Most people of that age can be bought around through a reasoned arguement and education.

AQ

That 'fuck the lot of you' was a joke. Sorry I dont have a very good sense of humour.

You say the 'mods and admins' are the only problem on that site but it's allready clear that there was a member here posing as a Fascist on that board. And you have admitted your sole purpose was to wind them up. Yet according to you these aren't problems?

I've criticised them and hopefully they will see the mistakes they've made, now you should try to do the same from your perspective. Also I've highlighted there being 'liberal to fascism', that's a problem. One that isn't helped by you at the moment.

Again I see the double standards applied here, so what if some kids 'idololise Stalin', guess what there kids. No one complains about new members joining by saying 'Yeah I love Trotsky he was the best', and 'Orwell is brilliant'. Kids grow up and become more educated. They do that quicker without members like yourself only replying with your worn out insults and posts refusing to acknowledge another persons opinion.

There was one thread on that board where all the anti'Stalinist-Kiddie' did was respond with 'I will make no excuses for a dictator who murdered millions'. The 'Stalinist-Kiddies' seemed to of provided the poster with links and sources to back their side up, but all the poster did was repeat himself. How about citing examples backed up links. Now I cant say I'm ever going to agree with them, but I'll happilyu take the time to address them and refute them. And you do the same. You see that's how a board should work. And it's not that difficult.

Your logic that I should 'only take offence' at your 'Stalinist-kiddie' insults if I feel I fit under a lable of ignorance is very flawed. It's like a Fascist saying 'oh but you black people should only take offence if you think you look like a Ape'. It would be looked down upon in that case and it should be with your little analogy. It's all the same old useless stereotypes and mudslining. Dont help no one.

So get over it, there are lots of 'ignorant kiddies' whether they be a Trot or Maoist or a member of the local Tory club.

Your example of the Juche/Kim II Sung debate is somewhat flawed. Who criticised it? Me a 'Stalinist'. Who posted the article? 'A Stalinist' and who wrote the article? A 'Stalinist'. See your logic doesn't stand up. But then again neither do any other mass stereotypes.

Drop that and you'll find you'll get on better with people and be able to have a relativlely intelligent disscussion.

I am not ignorant over this board and what went on. Go and read the rules upon joining this site when registering. I myself broke none of them and neither did alot of us. I've said the new board should be criticised if it's doing the same. Once again it's seems like double standards.

Oh yes and here's a question for the moderators here. I dont mean to sound as if I'm having a go but there seem to be a few members here with outright Fascist believs, I do believe they may of been restricted. But for example we have Vlasov a guy with a Nazi collobator in his avator, who uses rascist slurs against Chechens, Ukrainians and Albanians and seems to contribute nothing.

If this guy were even allowed at this new board you would (and rightly to) be up in arms about it. Ofcourse you have your reasons for this but maybe you should also take into account the other boards reasons for there actions.

Finally AQ people were laughing at that article from what I've seen and if it were the case that they didn't believe anything to be wrong with the USSR then they wouldn't be criticsing it heavily for it's last fourty years of existence would they.

See you all soon!

[Edelweiss]

To clarify what we mean when we speak about "Stalin kiddies" here is my post I meade some months ago in the CC:


Over the years here at Che-Lives, I think I have encountered something that I would call the "Stalin kiddie phenomenon". Regulary the following type of member is occuring here, always with the same characteristics and behaviour:


male
teen, between 14 and 18 years old
a religous like admiration for Stalin or other former "communist" dictators
mostly very rude and loud, and constantly flaming within debates
never really active within the leftist movement in real live ("nerd commies")
politicized not on the streets or by the parents, but from surfing the Internet or playing games like "red alert"
mostly pretty well read, and well informed, but also mostly repeating dump proaganda without any reflections
often lost any sense for reality and real political issues, only topic: Stalin


I'm not trying to piss on those "Stalin kids" here, I'm seriously intrerested to get explainations for the "Stalin kid phenomenon". So how can it be explained that so many years after the death of Stalin, he gets still such support, not only from old people who where privileged under his rule or who have nostalgic feelings for the Stalin era, or by some relics of commie sects of the 60s/70s, but by very very young people? I guess we have to rather look for phsycological reasons here than for political reasons. Any suggestions?

[Edelweiss]

Avout Vlasov: I guess you have noticed that he already is restricted to OI, and he's certainly not far away from being banned entirely.
Please realize that allowing members like Vlasov in one forum only is a totally different quality to allowing fascists roam freely around an entire board, remember when RC faked the Nazi one of those idiot mods even daid something like "his input is constructive, let him stay here". There are no double standards here, I'm rightfully compplaining about a pseudo-leftist board which is allowing and even encouraging fascist opinions.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 12:37 AM
El Brujo, first of all, I wasn't speaking about you concerning holocaust denial and egenetics. If you want names: Bolshevika is convinced that the holocaust didn't happen like "they teached us" and is trying to proof that with fascist sources like the "Leuchter report". He has also expressed sympathies for National Bolshevism. (BTW: National Bolshevism has a long tradition, and is certainly NOT limited to Russia). Ixabert is in strong support of eugenteics. Both are mods on your fake leftist board.
Well then, don't direct accusations towards me. At any rate, I don't think Bolshevika is a "holocaust denier," he simply has a different interpretation of what occured that isn't in line with common belief. Has he ever denied that the Nazis persecuted and committed crimes against the Jews? No. Has he ever applauded what the Nazis did to the Jews? No. I think it is proper that credit (or discredit, in this case) be given where it's due but as a true Marxist, I am all for not letting someone's emotions get in the way of getting their facts straight to not be destroyed in debate.

As for National Bolshevism's "long tradition," I have no clue what your talking about, unless you are referring to Strasserite National Socialism which is sometimes coined "National Bolshevism." Ive read up on Strasser and I can tell you it has little-to-nothing to do with "modern" National Bolshevism's agenda. A more proper "predecessor" to it is the Conservative Revolution but they were actively anti-fascist.


And you are totally missing the point about what I mean when I say that you shouldn't provide them a platform to spread their propaganda. This is really not about a "cyber war". The point is that you can't seperate "real live" and "internet live" the way you are doing it. Those are not two seperate parallel words, with no connections. The Internet has become one of the most important, if not THE most important means of recruiting for the fascists. Again, by giving them a place to be, and by allowing them tp publish Nazi propaganda on your forum, you are helping THEIR cause, no matter how you twist it. Especially if you allow it on a forum of a Che Guevara site, which is giving the fascist chance to reach "clients" which would be difficult to reach from their own.

Well, in real "live" the fact remains that the internet is a completely free forum (or cowards refuge if you choose to look at it that way) and nothing can be done about the fact that different ideas will be spread though it. The neat thing about it though, is that concurring ideas can be spread too, and that such ideas can be actively debated against the opposition because nobody's life or health is at risk by doing it. What's the point of preaching to the converted if you can't prove your argument's are stronger than the opposition's in a place where such a thing can be done? If you believe Nazis are given a "platform" if they are allowed to post in a leftist board, you are giving the impression that you can't debate against them. Do you not think your arguments are stronger than the Nazi's?


Of course they have already used that strategy by themself in the past by creating sites with leftist messages on the surface, but with fascist propaganda inside. But with naive idiots such as yourself, they don't even need to make the effort by themself.

Oh, how cute. I am a naive idiot now instead of an evil anti-semite.


You don't really need to allow Nazis on a (fake-)leftist forum to know more about their rhetoric and their way of thinking. They have enough publications and enough of their own forums where you can do it.

Oh? Try debating them at *************** without being banned instantly.


I already have provided you proofs for Saddam Husseins anti-semitism, a quick look at the old website of the former Iraqi govenment would have been enough, but I'll give you more hard proofs for it, which even a totally ignorant as you will have to acknowledge: Saddam Hussein and his German embassy had good and friendly contacts with the German neo-nazi group KDS. They where invited into the Iraqi embassy, and the head of the Nazi group even gave a medal of their group to the Iraqi embassor. It is obvious that what is conneting them is their anti-semitism (Source (http://www.google.de/search?q=cache:IpyCNIOrNboJ:de.indymedia.org/2002/10/32013.shtml+kds+hussein&hl=de&ie=UTF-8)). Futhermore, Saddam Hussein had friendly contacts with radical right-wingers and anti-semites such as Jörg Haider (Austria) and Le Pen (France). Besides, the high reward that Saddam Hussein was paying every family of a suicide assasin isn't that subtle, it is?

Can you call Ghandi an anti-semite, then? He made positive comments about Hitler, you know. How about the RAF who collaborated with Idi Amin (a notorious "anti-semitic" African dictator)? I could care less about interactions between figures of the Iraqi government and fascists, the point is, that wasn't the Ba'athist governments agenda. It's something called diplomacy. Saddam also held relations with Jaques Chirac, Le Pen's foe in the last elections (Im not saying that because of the war, which I opposed, either. There were deals about oil between France and Iraq). You must think Chavez is an "anti-semite" too, right?

http://www.angelfire.com/id/eje8/_884479_chav150.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/id/eje8/_1931942_chavez_saddam_ap150.jpg


And even if you are tending to dissociate yourself from your too obvious anti-semitic comments such as "the Jews are exploiters of the working class", a comment which is nothing than pure, modern anti-semitism, it is quiet clear that you are buying a lot into the short-minded view of capitalism, which basicly is just "Jews=capitalism" in the end.

Im still waiting for you to direct me to any instance where I said that. At any rate, it shows that it isn't me that adheres to Nazi influences, but it is you that is adheres to neo-conservative influences (and let's "German guilt" get in the way of reason) in regards to "anti-semitism." Read this article on "Nazi Greens," obviously written by a rabbid pro-Zionist neo-conservative and switch all references to "the Left" to "Stalinists" and tell me if some of the shit you spew out dosen't sound similar: http://bigjweb.com/artman/publish/article_397.shtml

And no, I don't equate Jews with capitalism, I simply acknowledge the fact that Jews have a disproportionate ammount of power in the US government and push their interests when it comes to foreign policy. It dosen't mean Im an "anti-semite" or that I believe in some big "ZOG" Jewish conspiracy out to destroy the "white race" (which they are a part of), it simply means that I see another element in the US government's racism, which is nothing new. Being a "spic" myself, Im not one to hold propaghanda and stereotypes against me as legitimate and see this from a very different perspective.


About "etnic-cleansing": You know damn good that what is happening in Palestine is far away from "ethnic cleaning", which means the organized anhiliation of a whole ethnic group. What Sharon is doing in Palestine is criminal and cruel, but it hasn't do anything with ethnic cleansing as it happned in Rwanda or the balcans. The only ones who are highhandedly killing others just because they are member of the wrong religion are the fanatics of Hamas, Al Aksa etc.

I know damn well that what is happening in Palestine IS ethnic cleansing. Is the occupation of someones territory and the execution and deportation of its people not ethnic cleansing in a more subtle fashion? Is the agenda of the far-right Likud and Hafia parties (both of which Sharon has connections to) not ethnic cleansing, and even quite resembling that of their persecutors 60 years ago?

As for groups like Hamas, I certainly don't support them but they are not the only ones killing for religious purposes. Furthermore, they are as much the victim's of what is going on as the people they kill. Tell me, wouldn't somebody be more likely to be absorbed into such an organization if their family was killed and their educational rights were taken away than if they lived in a nice, wealthy, westernized area with a strife-less life as well as everything you need in a "free" (decadent!) society? Not to mention the fact that you are completely ignoring cultural relativism.

[El Brujo]

As for the "forum war," I think we have solved this and hopefully all spamming and retaliation will stop. Welcome to the forum, Red Celtic.

[Edelweiss]

Sorry El Brujo, but now you are getting pretty ridiculous. Saying a a friendly relationship with a neo-Nazi group is "diplomacy" and therefore okay, is really stupid. Of course it's diplomacy, but it's polically moticated diplomacy which is caused in the fact that beside insane Maoists such as yourself, noone but some Nazis are calling for solidarity with Saddam Hussein. A friendy relationship with a neo-nazi group IS a political statement, no matter how you twist it, and no matter what the party programme of Bath party says (party programmes mean shit!). And why haven't you said anything about the fact that Saddam was paying every family of a suicide assisin a reward of $20.000? That is a more than clear sign of anti-semitism, but for you it is probaply only "anti-zionism" again. And when it's irrelevant that the Iraqi embassy where good friends wth a Nazi group, why have you stressed his friendship with Chavez as a proof for his leftism in your earlier statements in other discussions than? also you claim that I have some neo-conservative ideology, because I'm dedicated to counter anti-semitism within the Left, is more than ridiculous, it's people such as you who are giving assholes as the author of that article ammo, there is anti-semitism among the left, you are the best proof, although you are ceratinly not an hardcore anti-semite, but you easily subscribe to fragemnts of modern anti-semitism and conspiracy theories.

About National Bolshevism: NB was founded by German radical nationalists during the Weimar repblic who where in strong support of bolshevik Russia. (German source (http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/weimar/wegbereiter/bolschewist/)) Next time before you talk, educate yourself.

About Bolshevika: I never have called him a Nazi. I did never said he "denied that the Nazis persecuted and committed crimes against the Jews". Still he is buying into Nazi propaganda saying that what historians are teaching about the holocaust is exxegerated. This makes him a holocaust denier, and there is absolutely no apology for that, and there shouldn't be any tolerance for idiots such as him on the Left.
It's a good proof how naive kids are buying into Nazi propaganda on the Internet, and how effective and dangerous the Internet as a propaganda means can be. Further, it's a good example that it hasn't do anything with "who's arguments are stronger" to allow or not allow Nazis to spread their bullshit on the internet. There is so much bullshit published on the Internet, and you'll always find some stupid sheeps who will buy into some well written utter bullshit. All the absurd conypicary theories floating around on the Internet, and all it's followers are a good example. Who has the better arguments is totally irrelevant, people are tending to be irrational, and people are desperetly looking for something to believe. Arguments really doesn't matter at all. Really El Brujo. to not allow Nazi propaganda on a leftist website is consensus amoung leftists, it's really an irony that you are taking such a liberal stance here. Again, your stance on this one is extremely naive. I though I'm the liberal, pot smoking, hippie Trot fuck... :D

The whole quibbling about the term "ethnic cleansing" on your side is again ridiculous, it reamins that what is happening in Palestine has little to what is commonly meant when this term is used, it has also even less to do what the nazis did in germany with the Jews, it's yet another, unsensible and inappropiate Nazi-Jew comparison on your side.

BTW: I really don't equal anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Anti-zionism can be a legitimate leftist cause, but really not when it's coming from totally unsensitive and misguided people such as yourself. A good example how anti-zionism can be advocated in a sensible and reasonable manner is your Stalinist comrade Marcel, see http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=6&t=23358&st=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=23358&st=0).

[Guest1]

As an anti-Zionist myself, and the son of a Palestinian woman whose family was kicked out in 1948, I'm offended by anti-Semites taking the liberty of speaking for Palestinians on the matter.

At the same time, I find calling this ethnic cleansing, only belittles the Palestinian struggle. While you people argue about a word that obviously can't be used there yet, some Israeli officers are ordering their soldiers not to accept surrender in battle until at least ten guerrillas are dead. Houses are being demolished. Rachel Corrie was slaughtered in cold blood, crushed under a military bulldozer while the driver laughed. Entire olive groves are being uprooted for the building of a concrete wall.

All of that gets forgotten when we debate an exaggeration and you're proven to be wrong. No one then says, "wait, so maybe you're wrong about ethnic cleansing, but the Apartheid being established by Sharon is quite apparent".

The reality is outrageous enough, there's no need for hyperbole.

[Saint-Just]

About Bolshevika: I never have called him a Nazi. I did never said he "denied that the Nazis persecuted and committed crimes against the Jews". Still he is buying into Nazi propaganda saying that what historians are teaching about the holocaust is exxegerated. This makes him a holocaust denier, and there is absolutely no apology for that, and there shouldn't be any tolerance for idiots such as him on the Left.

Holocaust denial is concerned with downplaying the extent of the Holocaust. Most Holocaust deniers try to absolve National Socialist ideals and Hitler from the responsibility of deaths of 6 million Jews by: claiming the number of Jews that died in the war period was at maximum around 2 million, and that those that did die were not the victicms of an organised campaign but rather war casualties. Bolshevika says that the number that died is less than 6 million, but not to that extent and he does acknowledge the existence of an organised campaign to murder Jews.

I'm not sure if you could call it Holocaust denial. Perhaps you can but it is not to the same degree of the popular Holocaust deniers.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 03:17 PM
Sorry El Brujo, but now you are getting pretty ridiculous. Saying a a friendly relationship with a neo-Nazi group is "diplomacy" and therefore okay, is really stupid. Of course it's diplomacy, but it's polically moticated diplomacy which is caused in the fact that beside insane Maoists such as yourself, noone but some Nazis are calling for solidarity with Saddam Hussein. A friendy relationship with a neo-nazi group IS a political statement, no matter how you twist it, and no matter what the party programme of Bath party says (party programmes mean shit!). And why haven't you said anything about the fact that Saddam was paying every family of a suicide assisin a reward of $20.000? That is a more than clear sign of anti-semitism, but for you it is probaply only "anti-zionism" again. And when it's irrelevant that the Iraqi embassy where good friends wth a Nazi group, why have you stressed his friendship with Chavez as a proof for his leftism in your earlier statements in other discussions than? also you claim that I have some neo-conservative ideology, because I'm dedicated to counter anti-semitism within the Left, is more than ridiculous, it's people such as you who are giving assholes as the author of that article ammo, there is anti-semitism among the left, you are the best proof, although you are ceratinly not an hardcore anti-semite, but you easily subscribe to fragemnts of modern anti-semitism and conspiracy theories.
First off, I need no "proof" of his leftism. Saddam is a quasi-socialist and therefore, a leftist. Weather you like his brand of leftism or not is irrelevant. I simply pointed out the fact that under your rhetoric, Chavez would be an "anti-semite" too because he has connections to Saddam. So answer my question: DO YOU CONSIDER CHAVEZ AN "ANTI-SEMITE"!!??

As for "politically motivated" diplomacy, that's complete horseshit. A lot of Nazis are admirers of Louis Farrakhan and even Malcom X (of course, you probably consider him an "anti-semite" too, even though he related to Che's struggle, but Judeo-centric neo-con's said he was so it must be true), does that make them NOI or Black Panthers? :lol: Peron had some diplomatic connections with the fascists, which I resent, but nevertheless, there were Jews in high positions in his cabinet and fascism was very far from his agenda. Do you consider him an "anti-semite"? As for the money he payed the families of suicida bombers, it could simply be as a consolation for the families, for all Im concerned, nevertheless, it still dosen't make him an "anti-semite."


About National Bolshevism: NB was founded by German radical nationalists during the Weimar repblic who where in strong support of bolshevik Russia. (German source (http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/weimar/wegbereiter/bolschewist/)) Next time before you talk, educate yourself.

As I said, Strasserite NS. Modern National Bolshevism is hardly related to that and is much more influenced by the Conservative Revolution. National Bolshevism today is, give or take, Soviet hyper-patriotism with some strange proto-religious tendencies. This applies to Russia and Russia only though it is possible that there are groups who take influence from it elsewhere.


About Bolshevika: I never have called him a Nazi. I did never said he "denied that the Nazis persecuted and committed crimes against the Jews". Still he is buying into Nazi propaganda saying that what historians are teaching about the holocaust is exxegerated. This makes him a holocaust denier, and there is absolutely no apology for that, and there shouldn't be any tolerance for idiots such as him on the Left.

It most-certainly does not make him a holocaust denier. As Chairman Mao said, holocaust deniers are those that deny the fact that there was a campaign against the Jews and that the ones that were killed were simply war casualties. From what Ive seen, Bolshevika simply questions the magnitude of the holocause and the tactics which were used. Being objective towards an unpopular ideology dosen't mean "buying into propaghanda" and if that were the case, it could be said that we "buy into communist propaghanda." I don't buy into any propaghanda, I look at everything objectively and come to my own conclusions. Regardless of weather the Nazis killed 6 million people for their race or one, I still don't like their ideology because it is based on bigotry.


It's a good proof how naive kids are buying into Nazi propaganda on the Internet, and how effective and dangerous the Internet as a propaganda means can be. Further, it's a good example that it hasn't do anything with "who's arguments are stronger" to allow or not allow Nazis to spread their bullshit on the internet. There is so much bullshit published on the Internet, and you'll always find some stupid sheeps who will buy into some well written utter bullshit. All the absurd conypicary theories floating around on the Internet, and all it's followers are a good example. Who has the better arguments is totally irrelevant, people are tending to be irrational, and people are desperetly looking for something to believe. Arguments really doesn't matter at all.

They most certainly do and yes you will find ignorant people who blindly follow propaghanda, but you will also find many intelligent people who will make their own judgements and are likely to make the right desicion if they see ignorant propaghandists destroyed in debate. These people, being intelligent, can easily lead the sheep the right direction.


Really El Brujo. to not allow Nazi propaganda on a leftist website is consensus amoung leftists, it's really an irony that you are taking such a liberal stance here. Again, your stance on this one is extremely naive. I though I'm the liberal, pot smoking, hippie Trot fuck... :D

Yes, it is ironic that people like you preach about "multi-party democratic socialism" and other liberal fallacies but practice the opposite while us "authoritarians" are being more open minded and objective. As you said, the internet is not a state, if us "Stalinists" created an "evil Stalinist dictatorship," fascist opinion wouldn't be tolerated.


The whole quibbling about the term "ethnic cleansing" on your side is again ridiculous, it reamins that what is happening in Palestine has little to what is commonly meant when this term is used, it has also even less to do what the nazis did in germany with the Jews, it's yet another, unsensible and inappropiate Nazi-Jew comparison on your side.

First off, I made no "Nazi-Jew" comparison. I made a Nazi-Zionist comparison. If you insist on holding this obvious "anti-zionism is anti-semitism" attitude, you are not only proving "anti-semites" right but you are calling yourself one by claiming to be an anti-Zionist. Regardless of what ethnic cleansing "usually refers too," The systematic destruction of a culture and the killing, assimilation and deportation of a population with the commonly used excuse that they "don't exist as a nation" obviously has those tendencies. Have you not read some of the disgusting comments that were made in the OI when the flood of capitalists (particularly people like "AmericanZionist2004") came in? If you were told that your people "don't exist" and are therefore subject to rule by others, what would you think their agenda is? "Civilization of your uncivilized people"? Give me a fucking break.


BTW: I really don't equal anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Anti-zionism can be a legitimate leftist cause, but really not when it's coming from totally unsensitive and misguided people such as yourself. A good example how anti-zionism can be advocated in a sensible and reasonable manner is your Stalinist comrade Marcel, see http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=6&t=23358&st=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=23358&st=0).

If you can properly point out how Im being "insensitive and misguided" Ill begin to look at your accusations seriously. As far as Im concerned, I completely agree with Comrade Marcel.

[DarkAngel]

wow you guys seriously arent having board wars, grow the fuck up.

[Edelweiss]

El Brujo, not convincing at all!
I do not consider Chavez an "anti-semite", but I consider his friendly contacts with Hussein very questionable. If you can't see the difference between international dimplomatic contacts bewteen states, and friendly contacts of an embassy with a neo-nazi group, you are even more stupid than I thoght. I don't know of any other nation in Germany which has contacts with neo-nazis, and saying it's irrelevant to have contacts with neo-nazis, only reveals your tolerance for fascist opnion. It's so ridiculous how I have to discuss leftist basics with you: As a leftist, and also not as a leftist government (Saddam a leftist, good joke BTW!) you don't have ANY friendships with German neo-nazi groups, but it doesn't surprises me that a fake leftist such as yourself can't see that. Saddam Hussein has lost his reputation as a leftist long time ago, it might have been true 25 years ago, but certainly not now anymore. Wake up from you Stalinist/Maoist dream world, and at least look at the stance of todays "anti-revisionist" parties concerning Saddam Hussein.
And when you say that Saddams's payment tu suicide families may be just a "consolation for the families", and not a clear sign of anti-semitism, you again are either blatantly naive, just fooling me, or both.

Here is a quote by Malcolm X:


The Jews pooled their money and bought the hotels that barred them. They bought Atlantic City and Miami Beach and anything else they wanted. Who owns Hollywood? Who runs the garment industry, the largest industry in New York City? But the Jew that's advising the Negro joins the NAACP, CORE, the Urban League, and others. With money donations, the Jew gains control, then he sends the black man doing all this wading-in, boring-in, even burying-in--everything but buying-in. Never shows him how to set up factories and hotels. Never advises him how to own what he wants. No, when there's something worth owning, the Jew's got it. Walk up and down in any Negro ghetto in America. Ninety percent of the worthwhile businesses you see are Jew-owned. Every night they take the money out. This helps the black man's community stay a ghetto.

It is so obvious anti-semitic, but for fake leftists such as yourself it isn't, I guess you would even agree to it. Again, you would only see an anti-semite when he wears a nazi uniform and shouts "gas the Jews". You seem to be totally ignorant towards more subtle ways of anti-semitism, it sickens me how someone like you calls himself a leftist. Obviesly you are not.

Again, Bolshevika is not a "classic" holocaust denier, but no matter how you twist it again, there is no question that he is in favor of certain aspects of holocaust denial theories he catched from Nazi propaganda sites such as the Leuchter report, and from his nazi friends he liked to discuss with at the phora. And as I said, that is a clear proof of how dangerous the Internet can be, and how right it is to not allow Nazis to spread their mental poison anywhere on the Internet. If you want to be "open minded" to fascist opnion, than that it's again a clear sign that you are anything, but certainly not a leftist. (BTW: I even agree that open discussions with a Nazi where a "ignorant propaghandist is destroyed in debate" can help the anti-fascist cause, but that rquires high responability, and it certainly shouldn't be done by 15 year old fakes over at e-g.com).

But I'll quit debating with you now and forever, I'm sick of discussing very basic leftist principles with, that are consensus among 99% of all leftists. But wait, I guess those lefistst are just "Judeo-centric neo-con's", and you are the true leftist. :lol:

[El Che]

Malcom X was a racist and an aint-semite but he grew out of it. He was a very intelligent man but he had very little education. Eventually, later on in his life, he realized that the nation of islam, his racist ideas, etc, were bullshit and he had the guts to change. Which is why the nation had him killed.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 06:16 PM
El Brujo, not convincing at all!
I do not consider Chavez an "anti-semite", but I consider his friendly contacts with Hussein very questionable. If you can't see the difference between international dimplomatic contacts bewteen states, and friendly contacts of an embassy with a neo-nazi group, you are even more stupid than I thoght. I don't know of any other nation in Germany which has contacts with neo-nazis, and saying it's irrelevant to have contacts with neo-nazis, only reveals your tolerance for fascist opnion. It's so ridiculous how I have to discuss leftist basics with you: As a leftist, and also not as a leftist government (Saddam a leftist, good joke BTW!) you don't have ANY friendships with German neo-nazi groups, but it doesn't surprises me that a fake leftist such as yourself can't see that. Saddam Hussein has lost his reputation as a leftist long time ago, it might have been true 25 years ago, but certainly not now anymore. Wake up from you Stalinist/Maoist dream world, and at least look at the stance of todays "anti-revisionist" parties concerning Saddam Hussein.
And when you say that Saddams's payment tu suicide families may be just a "consolation for the families", and not a clear sign of anti-semitism, you again are either blatantly naive, just fooling me, or both.


Malte, not convincing at all!

If a connection between an embassy and a neo-nazi organization makes Saddam an "anti-semite" then how does a personal and more direct connection with Chavez not make him a leftist? And according to your rhetoric, how is Chavez not an anti-semite, being personal friends with one? You are obviously showing a case of double standards here.


Here is a quote by Malcolm X:


The Jews pooled their money and bought the hotels that barred them. They bought Atlantic City and Miami Beach and anything else they wanted. Who owns Hollywood? Who runs the garment industry, the largest industry in New York City? But the Jew that's advising the Negro joins the NAACP, CORE, the Urban League, and others. With money donations, the Jew gains control, then he sends the black man doing all this wading-in, boring-in, even burying-in--everything but buying-in. Never shows him how to set up factories and hotels. Never advises him how to own what he wants. No, when there's something worth owning, the Jew's got it. Walk up and down in any Negro ghetto in America. Ninety percent of the worthwhile businesses you see are Jew-owned. Every night they take the money out. This helps the black man's community stay a ghetto.

It is so obvious anti-semitic, but for fake leftists such as yourself it isn't, I guess you would even agree to it. Again, you would only see an anti-semite when he wears a nazi uniform and shouts "gas the Jews". You seem to be totally ignorant towards more subtle ways of anti-semitism, it sickens me how someone like you calls himself a leftist. Obviesly you are not.

LOL, this is great. Im really loving this. You just called a wide variety of leftist organizations, including the GUEVARIST Black Panthers are "fake leftists," not to mention Nelson Mandela. I do not see what is "anti-semitic" about that quote at all. It is pointing out the dominance of one ethnic group over another and denouncing it. That being said, if that comment is "anti-semitic" then when somebody says the same about WASPs they must be anti-white racists, then (and hopefully you know as well as I do what kind of people accuse everyone of being "anti-white"). The scenario is no different only the people he is criticizing have the good taste of being born Jewish. Why can't you see this instead of acting like its the Warsaw Ghetto in 1939 everywhere and at all times? The Jews were an oppressed ethnicity at that time and in that place, most-certainly not in the US from the 1960's on, is that so hard to understand?


Again, Bolshevika is not a "classic" holocaust denier, but no matter how you twist it again, there is no question that he is in favor of certain aspects of holocaust denial theories he catched from Nazi propaganda sites such as the Leuchter report, and from his nazi friends he liked to discuss with at the phora.

If you choose to look at it that way, so be it. Im tired of this and Ill let Bolshevika defend his position.


And as I said, that is a clear proof of how dangerous the Internet can be, and how right it is to not allow Nazis to spread their mental poison anywhere on the Internet. If you want to be "open minded" to fascist opnion, than that it's again a clear sign that you are anything, but certainly not a leftist. (BTW: I even agree that open discussions with a Nazi where a "ignorant propaghandist is destroyed in debate" can help the anti-fascist cause, but that rquires high responability, and it certainly shouldn't be done by 15 year old fakes over at e-g.com).

But I'll quit debating with you now and forever, I'm sick of discussing very basic leftist principles with, that are consensus among 99% of all leftists. But wait, I guess those lefistst are just "Judeo-centric neo-con's", and you are the true leftist. :lol:

Well, if you think it helps to openly debate fascists, why don't you join in? (there are "15 year old fakes" everywhere, if your going to take the ageist approach). As I said, in being open minded towards others opinions, you learn more about the opposition's ideology as well as yours. Its really not about making friends with nazis (which there are leftists who do, by the way, in real life. Im not one of them for social reasons as well as political). If bothering to learn the strenghts and weaknesses of the opposition instead of being whiny and simply thinking "theyr just so uncool, man" makes me a "fake leftist" then so be it. Furthermore, I don't give a rats ass what the "concensus among leftists" is. Im starting to wonder if you really care about the issues of the working class or are simply a "leftist" because its a nice little label to identify with. No, Im not your typical run-of-the-mill lefty, but simply because Im different you always resort to "more leftist than thou" semantics and completely go off topic to attack me. If all you care about is being politically correct to the extreme and going on a witch hunt for "subtle anti-semites," join the ADL and leave class struggle out of it.