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bunk
24th March 2004, 17:45
Wasn't he a communist :D how could this be then? I don't know i don't know that much but my history teacher said he was.

Dune Dx
24th March 2004, 17:47
Would it make a difference
Jew is a race like Arab its not just a religion

inless Ive totally missed the point

Saint-Just
24th March 2004, 18:00
Marx's grandfather and his uncles were Jews and Stalin had some Jewish blood in him. Marx said the Jew needed to be liberated from Judaism, to cast aside their religious beliefs and so on. As far as I know Trotsky did not follow Judaism.

BOZG
24th March 2004, 18:01
Jew is not a race. The Semites are a race.

Dune Dx
24th March 2004, 18:11
what ever but if you are a jew and turn to another religion you become a converted jew not that religion - very complicated

commie kg
24th March 2004, 18:36
Yes, Trotsky was ethnically Jewish. His real last name wasn't Trotsky, but Bronstein... But that doesn't matter at all. I don't think his family ever practiced Judaism, and he most definately cast any belief in it aside in adulthood.

Hate Is Art
24th March 2004, 19:00
can you become a jew? or have to be born into it?

monkeydust
24th March 2004, 19:29
Trotsky was not a practicing Jew, he was merely a member of the Jewish race, as were many leading early Marxist and Marxist-Leninist thinkers.

Such as Kamanev, Zinoviev.......and Karl Marx.

STI
24th March 2004, 20:24
Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 24 2004, 08:00 PM
can you become a jew? or have to be born into it?
You can be 'adopted' into judaism.


Jew is not a race. The Semites are a race.

The term 'semite' is inappropriately applied to Jews and only Jews. Arabs are semetic peoples as well.

Edelweiss
24th March 2004, 21:02
Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 24 2004, 08:47 PM
Would it make a difference
Jew is a race like Arab its not just a religion

inless Ive totally missed the point
jews are most certainly NOT a race. Stop saying that, that's plain nazi bullshit. Many Jews see themelf as one people or "nation" though, which is still an important difference.

BOZG
24th March 2004, 21:22
The term 'semite' is inappropriately applied to Jews and only Jews. Arabs are semetic peoples as well.

I meant to add that bit to the end.

Dune Dx
24th March 2004, 21:36
The Jews are a race they orignate from Israel just because they live elsehwere in the world doesnt chang their race just as Italians living in America are still Italians - they have the same carrateristics of the Itallian people the Nazi bullshit is that races are somehow different - one being better than the other which is a whole load of rubbish

STI
24th March 2004, 21:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 10:22 PM

The term 'semite' is inappropriately applied to Jews and only Jews. Arabs are semetic peoples as well.

I meant to add that bit to the end.
But you didn't, which is why you were banned on Live Chat. :P

Comrade Marcel
24th March 2004, 22:11
Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 24 2004, 10:36 PM
The Jews are a race they orignate from Israel just because they live elsehwere in the world doesnt chang their race just as Italians living in America are still Italians - they have the same carrateristics of the Itallian people the Nazi bullshit is that races are somehow different - one being better than the other which is a whole load of rubbish
I have to disagree that "the Jews" originate from Israel.

The semites, which include Arabs originate from that area, however, Jews, which include Western Eurpopeans, Eastern Europeans, Canadians, Americans, Etheopians, etc. can't really claim Israel to be their Nationality.

Suggested readings:

Are the Jews a Race? (http://marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1914/jewsrace/index.htm) by Karl Kautsky (http://marxists.org/archive/kautsky/index.htm)

How does a Nation Develop? What is a Nation? etc. (http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/marxism/Cl6.html)

Marxism and the National Question (http://www.marx2mao.org/Stalin/MNQ12.html) by J.V. Stalin

Socialist Action on Palestine (http://www.geocities.com/mnsocialist/palestine.html)

Marxism and the National Question Today (http://www.communist-party.org.uk/articles/2003/february/Marxism%20and%20the%20National%20Question%20Today. shtml)

Edelweiss
24th March 2004, 22:45
Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 25 2004, 12:36 AM
The Jews are a race they orignate from Israel just because they live elsehwere in the world doesnt chang their race just as Italians living in America are still Italians - they have the same carrateristics of the Itallian people the Nazi bullshit is that races are somehow different - one being better than the other which is a whole load of rubbish
You have no idea what you are talking about. Educate yourself before posting such a bullshit in such sensible questions please. First, it's highly unscientific to divide humanity into "races". Aninals have races, humans NOT. Every biologican will tell you that.
Second, the Nazis tried to find some common cortical characteristics of all Jews, and thus tried to proof that they are a "race" which is inferior to the "Aryan race". Saying that the Jews are a race is anti-semitic bullshit, every Jew will reject to be classifies a member of the "Jewish race".

And Marcel, most Jews don't justify the right of Israel to exist with ethnic heritage of the Jews, that's bullshit of course, the right of Israel to exist can rather be justified with the reality of century long anti-semitism and ongoing progroms against Jews which culminated in the holocaust. It's just sickening how many leftists are ignoring this...

cormacobear
25th March 2004, 00:48
The term you're looking for is Hebrew, I beleive. It is a branch of the semetic Race and the majority of the people who practice the Jewish faith are decended from nomadic tribes from the regions around Isreal. There were non hebrew people ther before them and still are. Politics aside anyone from any race can beleive in communism. Where you were born doesn't determine you genetics I'm a XCanadian but that doesn't mean that is my race I'm a celt from generations of Irish. They're are plenty of non hebew Jews and plenty of hebrew people who are athiests and other religions.

Trying to suggest that racial heritage in some way precludes political offiliation is a dangerous generalization.

Comrade Marcel
25th March 2004, 01:57
Originally posted by Malte+Mar 24 2004, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Mar 24 2004, 11:45 PM)
Dune [email protected] 25 2004, 12:36 AM
The Jews are a race they orignate from Israel just because they live elsehwere in the world doesnt chang their race just as Italians living in America are still Italians - they have the same carrateristics of the Itallian people the Nazi bullshit is that races are somehow different - one being better than the other which is a whole load of rubbish
You have no idea what you are talking about. Educate yourself ebore posting such a bullshit in such sensible questions please. First, it&#39;s highly unscientific to divide humanity into "races". Aninals have races, humans NOT. Every biologican will tell you that.
Second, the Nazis tried to find some common cortical characteristics of all Jews, and thus tried to proof that they are a "race" which is inferior to the "Aryan race". Saying that the Jews are a race is anti-semitic bullshit, every Jew will reject to be classifies a member of the "Jewish race".

And Marcel, most Jews don&#39;t justify the right of Israel to exist with ethnic heritage of the Jews, that&#39;s bullshit of course, the right of Israel to exist can rather be justified with the reality of century long anti-semitism and ongoing progroms against Jews which culminated in the holocaust. It&#39;s just sickening how many leftists are ignoring this... [/b]
Malte,

I agree with you on the first part about race. Biologically human beings are all the same. Differences in skin colour, bone structure, etc. are all superficial. Culturally, humans have differences, however, this is not something distinguishable by the other factors (i.e. if a white guy was born in Jamaican, he would be culturally Jamaican).

About Israel&#39;s right to exist, I don&#39;t think it is fair to use the holocaust (which included the lives of many people, not just Jewish) to justify the occupation and genocide of the Palestinians.

Also, because most of the Jews immigrating to Israel are ethinically not Semetic, it is not accurate to claim Israel as their nationality or homeland.

I agree with you about the persecution of Jews, which has infact been going on for almost 2,000 years.

The state of Israel also is already there now, fully develped, and people have been born there (and no one chooses were to be born) so saying that Israel should be completely abolished is about as sensical as saying North America should be given back to the Indigenous.

Of course, a debate on the solution to Israel/Palestine would be a whole other thread, Comrade. :)

commie kg
25th March 2004, 02:37
Originally posted by Malte+Mar 24 2004, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Mar 24 2004, 02:02 PM)
Dune [email protected] 24 2004, 08:47 PM
Would it make a difference
Jew is a race like Arab its not just a religion

inless Ive totally missed the point
jews are most certainly NOT a race. Stop saying that, that&#39;s plain nazi bullshit. Many Jews see themelf as one people or "nation" though, which is still an important difference. [/b]
Malte, do you have some info on that? I was always taught that the Jews were a race as well. But you know what they say about US education...

pandora
25th March 2004, 03:46
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 24 2004, 11:11 PM


The semites, which include Arabs originate from that area, however, Jews, which include Western Eurpopeans, Eastern Europeans, Canadians, Americans, Etheopians, etc. can&#39;t really claim Israel to be their Nationality.


My family is Turkish Spanish Jewish Sephardic. That means we came up from the area around Isreal in 300 AD to Spain to help mine gold in Spain when the Spain were considered Native people by the Romans. Together with the Moors we created a great deal of architecture, libraries, and silver smithing, etc in addition to developing more deeply a form of Qabbalistic understanding known as Jewish mysticism see El Greco, Holy Toledo, etc.
The Holy Roman Empire, freaked out by internal forms of spirituality, ie. find yourself in a cave stuff cracked down for a variety of reasons and expelled the Moors and Jews from Spain in a little horror show known as the Spanish Inquisition, also kept them from paying back certain loans which benefited Ferdinand and Isabella,
My family had some money so the king of Turkey let us settle on an island where we benefitted from pirate activity much endorsed by expelled Jews against the Spanish Armada. Later after Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians fearing we&#39;d be next and not wanting to fight in the Straights of Gallopi my great grandfather dressed as a bride to be, and my great grandmother a wedding matcher escaped.
We are ARAB JEWS, yes that little thing SHARON doesn&#39;t like to talk about, my mother&#39;s family looks like they are from are from Palestine except those who are Gentile as they call it. I&#39;m mutt.
IT&#39;s an ethnicity even though the country didn&#39;t exist till recently. If I were to go to ISReal I would probably rank below Palestine citizens believe it or not.
Arab Jews who remained in Isreal during reoccupation have been treated LIKE Garbage by the EURopean Jews who never really liked us.
Myself and many members of my family actually members of more Eastern Religions some members still live in Turkey having never left.
I get tired of people thinking all Jews lived in Europe, there are many Middle EASTERN JEWS, and there have been many progroms there and north.

Comrade Marcel
25th March 2004, 03:55
Originally posted by pandora+Mar 25 2004, 04:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pandora @ Mar 25 2004, 04:46 AM)
Comrade [email protected] 24 2004, 11:11 PM


The semites, which include Arabs originate from that area, however, Jews, which include Western Eurpopeans, Eastern Europeans, Canadians, Americans, Etheopians, etc. can&#39;t really claim Israel to be their Nationality.


My family is Turkish Spanish Jewish Sephardic. That means we came up from the area around Isreal in 300 AD to Spain to help mine gold in Spain when the Spain were considered Native people by the Romans. Together with the Moors we created a great deal of architecture, libraries, and silver smithing, etc in addition to developing more deeply a form of Qabbalistic understanding known as Jewish mysticism see El Greco, Holy Toledo, etc.
The Holy Roman Empire, freaked out by internal forms of spirituality, ie. find yourself in a cave stuff cracked down for a variety of reasons and expelled the Moors and Jews from Spain in a little horror show known as the Spanish Inquisition, also kept them from paying back certain loans which benefited Ferdinand and Isabella,
My family had some money so the king of Turkey let us settle on an island where we benefitted from pirate activity much endorsed by expelled Jews against the Spanish Armada. Later after Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians fearing we&#39;d be next and not wanting to fight in the Straights of Gallopi my great grandfather dressed as a bride to be, and my great grandmother a wedding matcher escaped.
We are ARAB JEWS, yes that little thing SHARON doesn&#39;t like to talk about, my mother&#39;s family looks like they are from are from Palestine except those who are Gentile as they call it. I&#39;m mutt.
IT&#39;s an ethnicity even though the country didn&#39;t exist till recently. If I were to go to ISReal I would probably rank below Palestine citizens believe it or not.
Arab Jews who remained in Isreal during reoccupation have been treated LIKE Garbage by the EURopean Jews who never really liked us.
Myself and many members of my family actually members of more Eastern Religions some members still live in Turkey having never left.
I get tired of people thinking all Jews lived in Europe, there are many Middle EASTERN JEWS, and there have been many progroms there and north. [/b]
The point I was trying to make, was not that there is absolutely no link of Jews to that area... and this is a sensitive issue which can be touchy at times.

What I am saying, is that even if you can link your ancestors (or how many thousands of years ago?) to that area, doesn&#39;t really mean that it&#39;s your birthright to always go back to that area.

I have Irish in my family, does that mean I should be granted Irish citizenship no matter what?

A lot of the people going to Israel do not even give 2 fucks about it, and just want to use it as an avenue into the U.S. or Canada, especially the many Jewish Russsians who are finding life under Russian Capitalism to be shitty.

I am not arguing that Israel should be abolished either.

pandora
25th March 2004, 04:04
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 25 2004, 04:55 AM


What I am saying, is that even if you can link your ancestors (or how many thousands of years ago?) to that area, doesn&#39;t really mean that it&#39;s your birthright to always go back to that area.


The reality is I would NOT BE INVITED TO RETURN TO ISREAL, as an ARAB JEW with an Arab surname as my connection, I WOULD NOT be welcome and my visa would be two weeks max.
THIS is a sensitive issue but European JEws have never been very nice to their Eastern Cousins, even in New York City they excluded Middle Eastern Jews from societies, society.
SHARon hates Arab Jews probably as much as he hates people from Palestine. Check out how Arab Jews were treated when European Jews returned to Isreal, actually it&#39;s the Arab networks that carry that story, no one else really does.
Before Great Britain and the European Jews interfered, Arab Jews, Palestine People and other Ethnic groups [gypsy, tribal]lived in relative harmony, more worried about who the latest invader would be.
I wish they could all live in harmony again, but the many of the European Jews that settled there have no intention in living with Arab people Jewish or Muslim. They want everyone else out.
I would not wish to go to Isreal, Turkey and Spain seem more interesting except for the bloody history, sometimes when my Spanish friends talk about discrimination as Spanish Catholics and about the superiority of Spanish culture I chuckle, if I feel like it I gently remind them of the Inquistion and my and even some of their heritage, but really it just points to how stupid it all is.
I don&#39;t agree with this.
As a Sephardic some European Jews mostly of older generations will still look down their nose at me when I tell them my heritage and feel they are superior. Really stupid

Guest1
25th March 2004, 14:39
Pandora, salaam.

We are one people, that is for sure, divided by the bloodlust of outsiders like Sharon. People like him have sown the seeds of hatred amongst those who lived in peace and unity.

It is disturbing to see how quickly western Jews forgot how closely Arab Muslims and jews lived until the beginning of the 1900&#39;s. Fighting against the Turks, against the Spaniards and against the crusaders together, all forgotten.

I have heard alot about the mistreatment of Arab Jews in Israel, this is why I do call for its abolishment.

The only way peace can be restored is with one nation, neither Israel nor Palestine, neither Jewish nor Muslim, for everyone in Democratic unity.

I would just like to tell you that the word Moor, though few no it, is a slur originating from the time of the crusades. Just so you know companera :)

Saint-Just
25th March 2004, 16:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 10:02 PM
jews are most certainly NOT a race. Stop saying that, that&#39;s plain nazi bullshit. Many Jews see themelf as one people or "nation" though, which is still an important difference.
I got severely castigated by Dhul Figar for saying that Jews are Semites, and Semites are a race but Jews in themselves are not a race. But he convinced me that I might be wrong actually. Some Jews are of Aryan appearance, e.g. Himmler, apparently anyway.

Edelweiss
25th March 2004, 22:10
Just to clarify it again:


Race is a real cultural, political and economic concept in society, but it is not a biological concept, and that unfortunately is what many people wrongfully consider to be the essence of race in humans -- genetic differences," says Templeton. "Evolutionary history is the key to understanding race, and new molecular biology techniques offer so much on recent evolutionary history. I wanted to bring some objectivity to the topic. This very objective analysis shows the outcome is not even a close call: There&#39;s nothing even like a really distinct subdivision of humanity.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/199...GSRD-071098.php (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php)

Vinny Rafarino
25th March 2004, 23:21
You are absolutely CORRECT Malte, there is no such thing as a "jewish race". Good grief, I can&#39;t believe there are still people out there that believe this nonsense.


read (http://racialreality.shorturl.com/)

Raisa
5th April 2004, 19:30
Im pretty sure Trotsky&#39;s daddy was a Jew, but that didnt matter for Trotsky, because I dont think he was religous.