Political

[RedAnarchist]

I know that the illogical conservative idea that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is outdated and naive, but what if we didint have a choice?

For example, what if the only parties in an election were right-wing, like the Conservatives and the BNP? I know theres revolution as a choice, but is it feasible in today's Britain or in other countries?

[Kez]

I think that in such a situation, the only solution is fight harder. If it was Labour on the other hand, then i would fight with Labour. The diference being Labour is a mass bourgeoise-workers party, whereas the Conservative Party is a bourgeoise party, with links with the BNP anyway.

In anycase, there should be a united front built for the immediate common goals.

[Saint-Just]

Of course we should follow whatever path necessary to achieve our goals. If voting for fascists would cause a civil war then we would want to do that. But, in today's Britain, for example, it is not worth voting for Labour or Conservative because voting for either will not bring us any closer to our goals.

In the case of a choice between the Conservatives and BNP you would likely vote for the Conservatives although it did not aid socialism the Conservatives are centre right and the BNP are far right.

[Kez]

But surely you should fight for your own class, rather than support that of the ruling class (ie conservatives)?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 02:18 PM
But surely you should fight for your own class, rather than support that of the ruling class (ie conservatives)?
Is that a question to me?

[cubist]

with no choice conservative would be voted by me and then i would see to it that another socialist party is there for the next election.

[Dune Dx]

Form your own party if the g'ment stops you get it publisised and form mass riots saying they have destroyed democracy then turn it into revolution


set your self up as a dictaor and your set for your whole life lol!!!!!!

[SlimJin]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 23 2004, 09:56 AM
Form your own party if the g'ment stops you get it publisised and form mass riots saying they have destroyed democracy then turn it into revolution


set your self up as a dictaor and your set for your whole life lol!!!!!!
I think he's speaking realistically lol

[Dune Dx]

OK why quote me my message is right above yours its not like you sellected an individual bit!!!!!!!

[redstar2000]

...but what if we didn't have a choice?

In bourgeois "democracy", you don't have a choice...although the bourgeois media goes to great lengths to make you think you do.

Thus your "question" is not a real one...it's just a statement of ordinary common sense.

They're all smiling bastards!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[crazy comie]

I would vote lib dem as they have the most leftwing policys and anti war policys of the major political partys.

[Dune Dx]

to Redstar

In Brittish politics how do we not have a choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :huh:

[Kez]

RedStar says that because he is an ultra left windbag, who believes nothing can come from using bourgeoise democracy as a platform.

The more left we vote in, the more the masses become radicalised, the more radicalised they are, the more people won over to our ideas, the closer to revolution
See: Pakistan parliament, which from 1 marxist MP, now has 3, and uses it as a platform to reach the masses.
That is a bourgeoise democracy

Redstar would disagree with this, as he is a ultra left windbag. Clearly the best platform of the left today is Che-Lives and other forums isnt it RedStar? :rolleyes:

[redstar2000]

RedStar says that because he is an ultra left windbag, who believes nothing can come from using bourgeois democracy as a platform.

And Kez always says that because he thinks people will really be impressed if they see you standing on a "platform" of bones.

With all the other liars.


The more left we vote in, the more the masses become radicalised...

Bah! If anything, the more cynical the masses become...when they see that the "left" in parliament acts just like the right.


See: Pakistan parliament, which from 1 marxist MP, now has 3, and uses it as a platform to reach the masses. That is a bourgeois democracy.

The Pakistani "parliament" cannot go to the loo without written permission from Pakistan's military dictator (and his American sponsors).


Redstar would disagree with this, as he is an ultra left windbag. Clearly the best platform of the left today is Che-Lives and other forums, isn't it, RedStar?

Although the tone of your query is sarcastic, you may actually be closer to the truth than you realize.

Internet message boards may well turn out to be the mechanism that the 21st century proletariat uses to organize itself and advance its political consciousness.

Did you know there are message boards called things like "pissed_off_employees_of_X_company.com"?

The future of revolutionary politics could be emerging all around us -- visible only to "ultra-left windbags", perhaps.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go refill my bag. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[SlimJin]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 23 2004, 01:05 PM
OK why quote me my message is right above yours its not like you sellected an individual bit!!!!!!!
Now ask yourself...do you think I give a fuck?! lol

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:29 AM

RedStar says that because he is an ultra left windbag, who believes nothing can come from using bourgeois democracy as a platform.

And Kez always says that because he thinks people will really be impressed if they see you standing on a "platform" of bones.

With all the other liars.


The more left we vote in, the more the masses become radicalised...

Bah! If anything, the more cynical the masses become...when they see that the "left" in parliament acts just like the right.


See: Pakistan parliament, which from 1 marxist MP, now has 3, and uses it as a platform to reach the masses. That is a bourgeois democracy.

The Pakistani "parliament" cannot go to the loo without written permission from Pakistan's military dictator (and his American sponsors).


Redstar would disagree with this, as he is an ultra left windbag. Clearly the best platform of the left today is Che-Lives and other forums, isn't it, RedStar?

Although the tone of your query is sarcastic, you may actually be closer to the truth than you realize.

Internet message boards may well turn out to be the mechanism that the 21st century proletariat uses to organize itself and advance its political consciousness.

Did you know there are message boards called things like "pissed_off_employees_of_X_company.com"?

The future of revolutionary politics could be emerging all around us -- visible only to "ultra-left windbags", perhaps.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go refill my bag. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
First off, people dont see Parliament as a platform of bones, they see it as a democratic institution, and only channel we can use. They are of course wrong, but we cannot ignore this and simply assume everyone see's through parliament. I havent upto now seen anyone calling for Soviets and Dual Power to be organised, so up until then, i think its safe to assume people believe Parliament as the best forum of change, and politically the loudest noise they hear comes from these institutions.

Secondly, why would the left act just as the right? Surely they would use their time to promote a transitional programme, and attack capitalism. Free media which is anti-capitalist.

Thirdly, It doesnt matter what the parliament in Pakistan can do or not, the issue is whether it is a good place to reach out to the masses using it as a tool such as a megaphone. And funnily enough, our Pakistani comrades are constantly attacking Musharaf and US imperialism, hence why marxist MP's have grown from 1MP 2 years ago, to 3 last year.

Fourthly, if you believe more people go onto shitty chat boards than listen to people from parliament....then i'll leave you to it. All i can say is that i feel sorry for you and your cocooned situation.

[crazy comie]

The more left wing the pepole in goverment the better the health service so it does matter.

[redstar2000]

First off, people don't see Parliament as a platform of bones; they see it as a democratic institution and [the] only channel we can use.

Right...that's why fewer and fewer workers even bother to vote.

Perhaps it is different in the U.K. -- but here the turn-out for off-year congressional elections is below 50% and falling.

With ups and downs, that seems to be a general trend in advanced capitalist countries.

The "show" is getting old.


Secondly, why would the left act just as the right?

Well, you tell me! Being a "vulgar materialist", I suspect it has something to do with a taste of "the good life". There's just something so "sweet" about having one's bum in a really plush seat that all thoughts of "leftism" seem to fly from their heads.

The general record of nearly all "leftists" in parliament ever suggests that if you get in, then as far as you're concerned "the revolution is over" and "you won".


...if you believe more people go onto shitty chat boards than listen to people from parliament....then I'll leave you to it. All I can say is that I feel sorry for you and your cocooned situation.

Thank you for your sympathy.

I wish I could return it but...you know the history of leftists in parliament and yet still want to try a useless tactic "just one more time".

I can't muster up much sympathy for those who flatly refuse to learn from history.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[shyguywannadie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 12:58 PM
I know that the illogical conservative idea that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is outdated and naive, but what if we didint have a choice?

For example, what if the only parties in an election were right-wing, like the Conservatives and the BNP? I know theres revolution as a choice, but is it feasible in today's Britain or in other countries?
Revolution, yes it is feasable, though those who dont have much knowledge about how to go about such a thing will tell you otherwise.

[Kez]

"Right...that's why fewer and fewer workers even bother to vote.
Perhaps it is different in the U.K. -- but here the turn-out for off-year congressional elections is below 50% and falling.
With ups and downs, that seems to be a general trend in advanced capitalist countries.
The "show" is getting old."

No, rather the people and parties in parliament are the same shit, when a workers MP is elected, then this will bring a fresh change. The more boring and discredited the regular MP's are, the more people will listen to new MP's who represent workers for a change

"Well, you tell me! Being a "vulgar materialist", I suspect it has something to do with a taste of "the good life". There's just something so "sweet" about having one's bum in a really plush seat that all thoughts of "leftism" seem to fly from their heads."
-Hence why we must be organised in parliament, not merely to have lefty MP's, only revolutionary MP's who see parliament only a means of achieving revolution, not the sole aim.
-In anycase, workers MP's would be on a workers salary, and the rest of the salary would go to revolutionary funding.

The general record of nearly all "leftists" in parliament ever suggests that if you get in, then as far as you're concerned "the revolution is over" and "you won"."
Ok, look at Pakistan example.
Look at Militant example of late 80's

"I can't muster up much sympathy for those who flatly refuse to learn from history."
-Good good, now run along and waste your time on the forum where the real revolution is, and despite many workers not owning computers, magically they will reada what you have to say...

[Dune Dx]

But on forums like this your reaching the youth of today which can educate them/us for the future. So you are reaching the workers - of the future

[redstar2000]

...now run along and waste your time on the forum where the real revolution is, and despite many workers not owning computers, magically they will read what you have to say...

Well, I'm assuming that if anyone as broke-ass as I am can manage to buy a used computer and pay for a dial-up connection...then, broadly speaking, the technology is within reach of any employed worker that wants to try it.

Five years ago, I would have agreed with you...it seemed to me back then that the internet was for middle class people...that it would never be possible for someone like me to be able to afford to go online.

Things have changed in that regard and seem to be changing even more.

Of course, computers still have that "mystique" of being "too difficult" for ordinary working people to use. But you know, all it takes is one guy in a workplace to buy one, try it out, and tell his/her mates how easy it is to learn to use...and the rest is history.

In the case of some people, they buy them for their kids...and then the kids teach their parents how to use them.

As to practicalities, one good way for a communist to use the internet is to start an anonymous website/message board about his/her employer...and then tell his/her co-workers about this "incredible site s/he found".

If kids can organize events on the scale of Seattle on the internet, why then can't workers organize class struggle on the internet?

You know we have some working class people here at Che-Lives -- even if that is still unusual, it is happening.

If their numbers grow over the next few years, I think that alone would suggest that I am right about this.

So we'll see.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Invader Zim]

The british parliament is not remotly democratic, and the labour party are a bunch of sell out wankers, who long sinse stopped representing the people. Of course still some unions latch on like leaches, because they hope they may be fed crumbs from Blairs plate, but they wont be.

The Unions are rubbish anyway, all they do is steal the workers money andpay their leaders fat pay checks, and occaionally when needs must give support to some of the workers who get into trouble. But by and large they dont do anything major. I have an uncle who has been fucked over by the teachers union who wont support him now, after he had a breakdown.

They are a bunch of wankers.

[Scottish_Militant]

They are a bunch of wankers.

And you are a sectarian one...

Was Alan Woods writting to you when he penned the excelent Marxism versus Sectarianism (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_vs_sectar.html) article? It certainly looks that way.

"For the ultra left ultra-left groups the answer is, as always, childishly simple. Their attitude towards the workers' organizations is always the same: shrill denunciations of betrayal, 24 hours a day, seven days a week and 52 weeks a year, every year. The problem is so simple, you see! All that is necessary is to shout at the top of your voice that everyone else is a traitor and that the masses should stop foolishly following these traitors and follow the PO instead. Then everything would be fine!

The problem is that, despite all the shrill denunciations and shouting, the masses do not follow the ultra-left groups but remain stubbornly loyal to their traditional mass organizations. They will not be convinced by denunciations and insults. On the contrary, such an approach will merely serve to repel them, drive them further into the arms of the leaders and discredit the Trotskyists, who will appear before the masses as sectarian splitters and wreckers. This is the image that the Stalinists have tried to foist on the Trotskyists for decades. Unfortunately, the conduct of the ultra-left groups serves to confirm this caricature. They have given Trotskyism a bad name with workers everywhere. This is a crime for which they cannot be forgiven."

I'd suggest you read the article in full, it's about time you studied socialism is it not?

[Nickademus]

you don't like your options.... create your own options..... run for gov't position.... get someone in the running that you like. give people another option.

if we only vote back and forth between two parties (much of what is happening these days) people won't realize that hey there's another choice....... for example, in canada so many people are afraid of the Conservatives winning so they vote Liberal and teh NDP loose their official status. If people had just continued to vote for NDP and Liberals, there wouldn't be a yes no choice. give people options and continue to fight for those options

[Kez]

Redstar,

i loved the way you ignored 3 of my 4 points in my post, and only replied to the least important and most trivial.

Please answer the other 3 points if you have the ability to do so.

[redstar2000]

I loved the way you ignored 3 of my 4 points in my post, and only replied to the least important and most trivial.

That's because our perceptions of what is important and what is trivial are different.

You think bourgeois elections are "important"...while I'm quite certain that they are trivial.

You think the proliferation of internet message boards is "trivial"...while I'm thinking that it may be one of the most important developments taking place now.

Thus, in my view, your "important" points are not worth bothering with...just the same old drivel.

And speaking of drivel...


The problem is that, despite all the shrill denunciations and shouting, the masses do not follow the ultra-left groups but remain stubbornly loyal to their traditional mass organizations.

Therefore, let us remain respectfully silent when "traditional mass organizations" fuck over their constituency...we don't want to "offend" anyone here, do we? :lol:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[cubist]

realistically voting the Joke party "lib dem" is a waste of a vote. may aswell not vote.

i concor with redstar it is a joke, its a lie democracy is false all partys will look for the greater good of the economy the worker will still be shafted. no one is equal in a system where those who matter in society are those that exploit.

[Dune Dx]

When i joined this site I was a strong supporter of democracy but now I see that the masses just exploit the minority so the mass can never be removed from power but still have everything they want in life at the expense of the minority - that is not fair

[crazy comie]

You don't see the point if you can make the life of the mases a tiny bit better it is still worth voteing. I do how ever agree we don't have a democracy just a dictatorship of the bourgeosie.

[Dune Dx]

Who has missed the point?

and it shouldnt be all about the masses otherwise the mass will exploit the minority into doing what they want!

[Kez]

"Therefore, let us remain respectfully silent when "traditional mass organizations" fuck over their constituency...we don't want to "offend" anyone here, do we?"

Get a life Redstar, its boring seeing you bl;indly turn away from past posts and write your own drivel, read the fuckin posts.

We dont want current MP's as a means to reform, we want the positions to urge workers to revolt.

[redstar2000]

We don't want current MP's as a means to reform, we want the positions to urge workers to revolt.

:lol: Kez, you are, on occasion, hilarious! :lol:

As if any sane individual would undertake rebellion with all the risks that entails...upon advice from her MP!

I'm trying really hard to picture this: Commons in an uproar, the fat Trot bellowing for revolution, the labor benches yelling "rubbish!"...if it were televised, the guys holding the cameras would be laughing so hard that the pictures would be jumping all over the place.

It would be funnier than anything since the days of Benny Hill.

Forget politics, Kez, and take up comedy. Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[monkeydust]

The last person to fundementally change a country through the ballot box was Adolf Hitler. He still had trouble doing so, despite an open proportional system, efective propaganda and the worst economic depression in history.

At least in Britain we truly have no chance of achieving significant change through the ballot box. The plurality system simply doesn't work that way. Moreover, the vast majority of people will only vote for the two (arguably 3) 'major' parties, with a feasible chance of forming government.

Myself, I find low turnouts encouraging. The 2001 election sported the lowest turnout since the extension of the franchise, the 2005/2006 election is predicted to draw in even fewer voters.

Either people really are becoming apathetic to the political scene, or they are beginning to realise that the ballot box changes little. If the latter is the case, then we can only hope that people will find an outlet for their political intentions, suited to our goals.

Unfortunately most, political 'activists' tend to have fairly parochial interests. Concerning (amongst other things) animal welfare, the environment and gay rights.

[Kez]

oh dear,

Redstar, im suprised at your age you still havent read up your history.
Neither that or do you follow current events

read up, maybe will stop you yapping for a bit. Check up on the examples i gave you.

[Dune Dx]

low voting turn outs are good for us if we voted communist every time maybe they would win cos nobody else would be voting lol!!!!

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 12:58 PM


For example, what if the only parties in an election were right-wing, like the Conservatives and the BNP? I know theres revolution as a choice, but is it feasible in today's Britain or in other countries?
It's always feasible. If enough people are pissed off about candidates, then a populist revolution can be head. I think it is possible today. "my enemy's enemy is my friend" has some truth to it though.

[crazy comie]

I wasn't saying democracy made mutch diffrence so i'm not disagreing with you that much i'm just saying it is still worth voteing as it can make still make a diffrence all be it a small one.

[God of Imperia]

You have to do something, and it might not make a diffrence but at least we're trying, evolution goes in small steps

[crazy comie]

That is true also it benifits us to get pepole more intrested in poltics.