stalinists

[communist_comrade]

hey,

are there any of you that are stalinists or other assorted things like that ?

[Individual]

No. Are you?

(There are a couple, as long as they are educated and pleasant, they can be withstood)

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I'm not, but I am viewed as just as authoritarian if not more so then RAF or Chairman Mao by most people, and they are Stalinists. I'm just a Leninist Bolshevik. :D

[communist_comrade]

hey,

i sure am not although i dont really like stalinists , what does a stalinist follow about stalins regime?

[Individual]

Stalinists.

Stalinists (on Che-Lives atleast) are generally 10-15 year old kids that have a fancy idolization of Stalin. They tend to disregard and make excuses of Stalin's horrific actions. They consider Stalin, Lenin's rightful heir. They consider Stalin a Marxist ( :blink: ). They worship him as a skinhead today would worship Hitler. They feel that Stalin has done almost no wrongdoing, and praise all of his actions. They tend to forget that things Stalin did would not resemble Lenin's actions, and were not Marxist. Stalin assasinated Lenin's rightful heir, Trotsky.

I can not speak that every Stalinist is like this. However 95% of the Stalinists on Che-Lives are misguided, uneducated, ignorant young teens. Who instead of idolizing someone such as Britney Spears, or Pokemon; they idolize a mass murdering, contradicting authoritarian.

Good to see that you are not one.

As for the Stalinists on this board who do not follow under this stereotype, you know who you are.

[communist_comrade]

hey,


how the hell could anyone ever even consider following stalin...thanx man; i didnt know what someone could follow in the guy and up until now i doidnt know stalin killed trotsky : BASTARD !! :angry:

[Individual]

up until now i doidnt know stalin killed trotsky : BASTARD !!

Sorry, my mistake. I did not produce my words correctly. Stalin had Trotsky assasinated. Anyhow...

For a first hand experience on mis-guided teens that follow Stalin as their hero/idol, take a look around here (http://www.ernesto-guevara.com/forums). Run by exiled Che-Lives 14 year old whiners, ernesto-guevara.com is your leading misguided Stalinist webpage of which hosts nothing but articles stolen from the web, with no actual intelligence flowing.

[monkeydust]

Communist comrade

I think you're a Stalinist.

Some of these guys tend to flock to http://www.socialistfront.org/forum/.

[El Che]

Stalinist is another word for fascist.

[BOZG]

Stalinist is another word for fascist.

FUCK NO

[Saint-Just]

how the hell could anyone ever even consider following stalin...thanx man; i didnt know what someone could follow in the guy and up until now i doidnt know stalin killed trotsky : BASTARD !!

You should visit www.ernesto-guevara.com to have a better idea of who Trotsky and Stalin were. Stalin did not have Trotsky killed but the CPSU chose to expel him from the party.

The majority of the people on this site are teenagers, so it is not surprising that the Marxist-Leninists here reflect the age spectrum on the forum as a whole. Thus a sizeable number are 14-18, although there have been a members of many different ages.

'Stalinists' do not worship Stalin, they recognise him as who he is in history and what ideas he contributed to the communist movement. People become Marxists because they analyse history and societies scientifically. From doing so one can also see that in the west a lot of untruths are told about socialism around the world, Stalin as a mass-murderer being an example of that.

[BOZG]

'Stalinists' do not worship Stalin, they recognise him as who he is in history and what ideas he contributed to the communist movement.

Please don't lower yourself to the point where you actually reject the cult of personality.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:13 PM

'Stalinists' do not worship Stalin, they recognise him as who he is in history and what ideas he contributed to the communist movement.

Please don't lower yourself to the point where you actually reject the cult of personality.
Worship implies religious to me and a lot of people. There is a difference between praising someone and cult of personality. I believe that people praise Stalin but I would not use the term worship since he is viewed as a human being, not literally a god with powers that transcend heaven to earth.

A cult of personality is used too easily. For someone like Bush there is no cult of personality, for someone like Mussolini or Hitler there was a cult of personality. But cult of personality was part of fascist ideology. So yes, I do reject the existence of a cult of personality surrounding Stalin based on what I know of the Soviet Union. I think you are a Trotskyists so I think I am always at a very low point in your eyes.

[Enver Hoxha]

Hi CM it's me Cassius Clay.

Good to see your still sticking with this, I know it get's pretty boring.

Anyway I'm what you would call a 'Stalinist'. Oh yes and I'm 19 so that's the first point where you lot are wrong.

It's amazing that CM is accussed of 'lowering himself' when he rejects the cult of personality. If he had proceeded to praise Stalin to the hill you would all be going balistic pointing out that this is evidence of 'Stalinists' being a cult. Most 'Stalinists' regonise that Stalin made mistakes, and we criticise him for that. To do so would be wrong, but since Stalin admitted many of his mistakes we shouldn't feel any need to go into any great detail about it. In particular when we are forced to defend him against outright lies.

Stalin btw completly rejected any 'cult' around him and the image portrayed in the west that the USSR was a society where it was 'Stalin gave a order and so everyone carried it out' is so flawed that evidence for Santa is easier to find.

I belong to a party here in the UK which upholds Stalin, most members in my branch are well over 60 and have been involved in the labour movement for decades. The statement that 'Stalinist is another word for Fascist' would explain why tuesday week there is a talk being given on the rise of the BNP and how to fight it.


Someone up there complains about 'Stalinists' worshipping Stalin the same way skinheads worship Hitler. I'd like to know how many 'Stalinists' this person has met face to face and also why they are similar to skinheads. Also it's a great hyprocrisy to say all this and then write 'Lenin's rightful heir Trotsky'. Which schoolbook you get that out of? Anyway guess the CPSU didn't agree with you when they gave old Trot less than 6000 votes out of over 725,000.

[Individual]

Hence the:


As for the Stalinists on this board who do not follow under this stereotype, you know who you are

You know what I find funny:


Stalin btw completly rejected any 'cult' around him and the image portrayed in the west that the USSR was a society where it was 'Stalin gave a order and so everyone carried it out' is so flawed that evidence for Santa is easier to find.

Are statements like these. Were you alive when Stalin was in power? Were you in the Soviet Union back then? So how exactly can you say these things as if you 'watched' thse events carry out? Oh, but you read books/essays/reports/etc about Stalin that tell you these things. Well have you ever heard of propoganda? It's the same sort of thing. Stalin wanted to be remembered as a great man, thus creating propoganda knowing that people like you guys would one day become interested and believe all of that garbage. Propoganda doesn't only happen in the politically right-side American media. So saying that our information from the western society is flawed, cannot be said without bringing up the propoganda from the other side; Stalin's side.

Please spare me all of your Stalin didn't do this/that stories. They hold absolutely know merit, and to try and deny maybe a thousand deaths is one thing; however to try and deny millions upon millions of innocent deaths is absolutely insane.


gave old Trot less than 6000 votes out of over 725,000.

I'm not talking about elections. I'm talking about who would have rightfully taken Lenin's place as an upstanding Marxist-Leninist. Not Stalin; Stalin followed his own guidelines, his own non-Marxist beliefs. Stalin did not participate in the revolution; and Stalin was blinded by the power.


Someone up there complains about 'Stalinists' worshipping Stalin the same way skinheads worship Hitler. I'd like to know how many 'Stalinists' this person has met face to face and also why they are similar to skinheads

Are you able to comprehend meaning? I never said Stalinists were similar to skinheads in the way you are thinking (ie. looks/actions).
Stalinists and skinheads both praise a very evil man and his doings.
They try and carry on his political party.
They think that the things he (Hitler/Stalin) had done were for the better of their/ones' country.
Most often younger 10-20 teenagers with nothing better to do then fabricate one man's life, while still praising him as if he is god.
Believe that as a society we need to carry on this man's legacy/political party.

And on and on.

So please don't ask as to how Stalinists can be compared to skinheads (or whatever word you want to give Nazi/Hitler idolizers), when the answer is very clear.

[El Che]

Enver Hoxha wrote:


The statement that 'Stalinist is another word for Fascist' would explain why tuesday week there is a talk being given on the rise of the BNP and how to fight it.

What is the BNP? Perhaps British National Party? You are British if I remember correctly. So, your statement is sarcastic is it?

I don't deny there is an ideological difference between what is traditionally referred to as Fascism and the Stalinist brand of Fascism. My point, which, I think, should be accessible, is that Fascism is in essence Totalitarianism and Stalinism, too, is in essence Totalitarianism. Such idiocy is, of course, altogether a thing of the Right.

[Misodoctakleidist]

MM, you aren't a Leninist no matter how may times you say that you are. To be a Leninist you have to actualy adhere to his ideology.

Enver Hoxha, what exactly was the point of this little undercover mission?

El Che, Stalinism isn't the same as fascism, you just use the word fascism to desribe anything 'bad.' Fascism isn't just totalitarianism, fascists belive that history is a constant struggle of between 'races' and that the 'superior race' should be allowed to come out on top. Stalin may not have been a nice person but to describe him as a fascist is inaccurate.

[Hate Is Art]

Stalin was not a fascist, he was an authortarian marxist.

Stalin did no invent his own political theory he followed Marx's and Lennin's writings.

[El Che]

If Stalin is any kind of Marxist you can call me Susana.

[Bolshevika]

For a first hand experience on mis-guided teens that follow Stalin as their hero/idol, take a look around here. Run by exiled Che-Lives 14 year old whiners, ernesto-guevara.com is your leading misguided Stalinist webpage of which hosts nothing but articles stolen from the web, with no actual intelligence flowing.

Fool. Why not post this on my board? Try to debate with us?

I treated you with kindness, opened my arms to your ilk, tolerated your dogmatist liberal pseudo-trotskyist bullshit, made your voice heard on my board. This is how I am repayed. I see how it is. Typical of your kind, ingrates and opportunists.


I can not speak that every Stalinist is like this. However 95% of the Stalinists on Che-Lives are misguided, uneducated, ignorant young teens. Who instead of idolizing someone such as Britney Spears, or Pokemon; they idolize a mass murdering, contradicting authoritarian.

Great generalization and ad hominem . I guess Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Kim Jong Il, practically every communist movement that accomlishes something, are all "ignorant teenagers"?

I am ignorant? Would you like to debate the Lenin testament with me?

You are the typical liberal traitor. You believe the bourgeoisie over an ally. I would have no problem aligning myself with Trots and libs, but the problem is they make themselves our enemy, hence we have to destroy them.

Can you provide facts as to why Stalin was a "mass murderer"?



I'm not talking about elections. I'm talking about who would have rightfully taken Lenin's place as an upstanding Marxist-Leninist. Not Stalin; Stalin followed his own guidelines, his own non-Marxist beliefs. Stalin did not participate in the revolution; and Stalin was blinded by the power.

Hmm... you seem to ignore that Stalin was rightfully elected as sucessor to Lenin, and when we show you these facts, you simply say "oh but but...Trotsky was his sucessor". Who is the dictator now? Lenin alone should not make the decisions, but rather, an elected committee of the people should. Let's say Lenin was a Trotskyist (theoretically of course), ok, but Lenin was an honest man of the peoples who would've simply accepted the fact that most wanted Stalin over Trotsky.



Please spare me all of your Stalin didn't do this/that stories. They hold absolutely know merit, and to try and deny maybe a thousand deaths is one thing; however to try and deny millions upon millions of innocent deaths is absolutely insane.

Typical closed mindedness. Refusing to read both sides, only believing what you want to believe. Do you know how unMarxist the statement you wrote is?



If Stalin is any kind of Marxist you can call me Susana.

Hi Susana. If you want go to my website and go under Marxism-Leninism and read Stalin's contributions to the ideology. Knowing how narrow-minded you are, you will not go and read anything. But still, I will try to have you atleast look at both views, rather than go in with an extremely closed mind and just call Stalin a "Fascist" (yeah, he was a real fascist, although he led the red army to victory against nazi Germany).

I am a little ticked off at this moment so excuse me if I sound angry.

I ask all anti-Stalin folks to go to my board and debate their views with us. But no. You won't. Why? Because we will put up a fairly good debate and you will come back here crying about it. Fact is, we will never please you because you live in a world of idealism and Americanization.

[Enver Hoxha]

AlwaysQuestion

Is there one fact in your post? Opinions are one thing, facts are another so please dont try and confuse the two.

You alledge that Stalin followed a 'non-Marxist' path. Yet can you provide one statement from Stalin that directly contradicts Marxism? Have you read any of his works? I doubt it. You say that Trotsky should of followed Lenin as a 'upstanding Marxist-Leninist' but you plainly ignore both Lenin and Trotsky's thoughts on the matter. E.g. Lenin didn't think Trotsky was a Marxist and Trotsky wanted nothing to with Leninism, 'beuracratic' he called it.

No I wasn't alive in the USSR under Stalin. Neither is there anything in my previous post which would make it apparent that I was (not to mention saying I was 19). The fact is Stalin rejected any cult towards him. There are many statements by him both publically and privatly ridiculing and criticising any hero-worship of him. That is the fact of the matter, not some rant.

What has more basis for the truth. You and your Nazi friends (and all this that you repeat comes from every alt-white-power group on google and Hitler quotes) alledge that 'Stalin was a mass murdering evil paranoid Dictator'. While I'll provide a source which shows that infact Stalin was not a dictator since if the majority in the politburo disagreed with him Stalin couldn't do a thing about it. He was booed by the party for being perceived to be too lenient on the Trotskyites. I'll point out that the U$A has more people in prison today than were in prison under Stalin. And I'll point out that infact there was many exchanges of opinion and debate in the USSR from high up in the politburo to the average work place or party meeting.

Those are the facts backed up by in many cases sources that aren't neccessarrily pro-Stalin.

When it comes down to it your argument is

'Ere dude that Fascist Stalin murdered millions'

When actually under Stalin the life-expectancy was much higher than in Tsarist Russia and still higher than in Russia today. Not to mention Stalin had very little to do with who went to prison, when there are examples of him tyring to intervene on someones behalf he is often overuled.


Your sides propaganda is based on 50 years of cold-war era History channel type rubbish aswell as Nazi colloborators and sources and dissidents who weren't right in the head (but all them dollars they were paid helped that). Are's is based on the material and documents from the archives, both on the prison system and the CPSU, people's testimony, foriegn investigation into the workings of Soviet society and the fact that you haven't been able to prove one iota of any of these tens of millions of bodies that should be lying about. Comeon you've had a good 15 years to look for them.

But according to your logic it's 'insane' to look at the archives and as even western and anti-Stalin historians and investigators have done discover the truth. Which is that there were no tens of millions of executions or deaths.

Oh yes and the world's 'Stalinists' are made up of slightly more than 10-20 teenagers. In Russia today the RCWP and newly formed CPSU get over five million votes last election not to mention taking part in working class activism against the Capitalists. In Albania the 'Stalinist' Enver Hoxha was voted the greatest Albanian. In Nepal the rebbellion that controls half a country is under a pro-Stalin platform (but let me guess Stalin never wrote anything on the peasants because he only had his own agenda? LOL), in Ecaudor the 'Stalinist' party is taking a leading role in fighting against the IMF domination of the country. And in Turkey them 'Stalinists' are dying by the hundreds in the jails.


El che.

How am I being sarcastic? Yes the BNP stands for British National Party. If it's your logic that because I'm British I shouldn't fight them then you should among other things begin to question your beliefs. But just incase you din't know the BNP are Fascists whose leadership upholds Adolf Hitler and deny's the Holocaust. There's nothing 'sarcastic' about raising the issue of a meeting addressing how to fight them.

Your right Fascism is totalitarianism, or as Dmitrov said 'The terrioristic dictatorship of the bourgesie'. 'Stalinism' or Marxism-Leninism is not totalitarianism. USSR was contray to what your schoolbook tells you far more democratic than the west.


Misodocktakleidist.

There's nothing 'undercover' about posting on a internet board is there? Please explain the meaning of that bizzare statement if you would be so kind.

[Misodoctakleidist]

I wondered why you weren't using 'cassius clay' but then i read the thread in chit-chat.

I thought perhaps you were up to something.

[El Che]

Enver Hoxha,

I think you misunderstood. "would explain why" Is the sarcastic part. I'm the first to join you in condeming and fighting Fascism, as well as all of its close cousins.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 04:57 PM
MM, you aren't a Leninist no matter how may times you say that you are. To be a Leninist you have to actualy adhere to his ideology.

Enver Hoxha, what exactly was the point of this little undercover mission?

El Che, Stalinism isn't the same as fascism, you just use the word fascism to desribe anything 'bad.' Fascism isn't just totalitarianism, fascists belive that history is a constant struggle of between 'races' and that the 'superior race' should be allowed to come out on top. Stalin may not have been a nice person but to describe him as a fascist is inaccurate.
Unless you are 100% dogmatic troll, then you never really adhere to anyone's ideology, meaning that you are someone who is capable of forming their own political opinions. Even though Lenin might have said that the state will go away, he was the leader of the Bolsheviks, who were quite opposed to the statelessness that the mensheviks proposed. Regardless of what he said in The State and the Revolution, he actions show otherwise.

[El Che]

E.H,

The reference to your being British comes in conection with my guess work on the meaning of BNP.

[Urban Rubble]

Would someone like to explain how they believe that Stalin didn't order Trotsky's assassination ? That one made me laugh, seeing as how Soviet archives prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[el_profe]

What is Bolshevika doing here? doesnt he have his own board? Or was he tired of talking to the same 3 people everyday? :lol: :lol:
Also, anyone notice he changed his birth date? :lol: :lol: , lame.
Stalin was a murderer, that is all he was.

HAHAHA, he also made movies where he was the "hero" of the revolution.... :lol:

[BOZG]

he was the leader of the Bolsheviks, who were quite opposed to the statelessness that the mensheviks proposed. Regardless of what he said in The State and the Revolution, he actions show otherwise

You hardcore Leninist!!!! The Mensheviks were opposed to statelessness. They were reformists.

[communist_comrade]

hey,

im no bloody stalinist and one of you alleged that a true commie brother wasnt around to witness the events take place eh ? ..were you ? i didn't think so - oh and for the record i dont think someone would lie about having their families shot. so to you stalinists i say "seize the day and not the gun".

[Scottish_Militant]

Trotsky on Stalinism - http://www.trotsky.net/onstalinism.html

[Anarchist Freedom]

stalinism is not among one of the most popular veiws in this forum because it reflects a veiw in which most of us to not support.. because most generally we are likely to be communist's or anarchist's or anarcho-communist's. So to sum it up dont expect to find a popular support of stalinism...



:che:


CGLM! (http://www.cglm.net)

[Invader Zim]

Stalinists, they confuse me. Some of course are these dumb little bastards aged 14 read one book or site and think they know it all. Then you get some quite clever people who are Stalinists, and they are the ones who confuse me. Bright people who believe complete crap, its like religion.

However if were ranting about Stalin and how he was gods gift or whatever, I will post my favourate letter from the Soviet archives (yes the ones which the Stalinist kiddies say proves that they are right... ohh the irony), written by some poor sod put in a Gulag: -

To the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik)
We appeal to you, asking you to pay a minimum of attention to our request.

We are prisoners who are returning from the Solovetsky concentration camp because of our poor health. We went there full of energy and good health, and now we are returning as invalids, broken and crippled emotionally and physically. We are asking you to draw your attention to the arbitrary use of power and the violence that reign at the Solovetsky concentration camp in Kemi and in all sections of the concentration camp. It is difficult for a human being even to imagine such terror, tyranny, violence, and lawlessness. When we went there, we could not conceive of such a horror, and now we, crippled ourselves, together with several thousands who are still there, appeal to the ruling center of the Soviet state to curb the terror that reigns there. As though it weren't enough that the Unified State Political Directorate [OGPU] without oversight and due process sends workers and peasants there who are by and large innocent (we are not talking about criminals who deserve to be punished), the former tsarist penal servitude system in comparison to Solovky had 99% more humanity, fairness, and legality. [...]

People die like flies, i.e., they die a slow and painful death; we repeat that all this torment and suffering is placed only on the shoulders of the proletariat without money, i.e., on workers who, we repeat, were unfortunate to find themselves in the period of hunger and destruction accompanying the events of the October Revolution, and who committed crimes only to save themselves and their families from death by starvation; they have already borne the punishment for these crimes, and the vast majority of them subsequently chose the path of honest labor. Now because of their past, for whose crime they have already paid, they are fired from their jobs. Yet, the main thing is that the entire weight of this scandalous abuse of power, brute violence, and lawlessness that reign at Solovky and other sections of the OGPU concentration camp is placed on the shoulders of workers and peasants; others, such as counterrevolutionaries, profiteers and so on, have full wallets and have set themselves up and live in clover in the Soviet State, while next to them, in the literal meaning of the word, the penniless proletariat dies from hunger, cold, and back- breaking 14-16 hour days under the tyranny and lawlessness of inmates who are the agents and collaborators of the State Political Directorate [GPU].

If you complain or write anything ("Heaven forbid"), they will frame you for an attempted escape or for something else, and they will shoot you like a dog. They line us up naked and barefoot at 22 degrees below zero and keep us outside for up to an hour. It is difficult to describe all the chaos and terror that is going on in Kemi, Solovky, and the other sections of the concentrations camp. All annual inspections uncover a lot of abuses. But what they discover in comparison to what actually exists is only a part of the horror and abuse of power, which the inspection accidently uncovers. (One example is the following fact, one of a thousand, which is registered in GPU and for which the guilty have been punished: THEY FORCED THE INMATES TO EAT THEIR OWN FECES. "Comrades," if we dare to use this phrase, verify that this is a fact from reality, about which, we repeat, OGPU has the official evidence, and judge for yourself the full extent of effrontery and humiliation in the supervision by those who want to make a career for themselves. [...]

We are sure and we hope that in the All-Union Communist Party there are people, as we have been told, who are humane and sympathetic; it is possible, that you might think that it is our imagination, but we swear to you all, by everything that is sacred to us, that this is only one small part of the nightmarish truth, because it makes no sense to make this up. We repeat, and will repeat 100 times, that yes, indeed there are some guilty people, but the majority suffer innocently, as is described above. The word law, according to the law of the GPU concentration camps, does not exist; what does exist is only the autocratic power of petty tyrants, i.e., collaborators, serving time, who have power over life and death. Everything described above is the truth and we, ourselves, who are close to the grave after 3 years in Solovky and Kemi and other sections, are asking you to improve the pathetic, tortured existence of those who are there who languish under the yoke of the OGPU's tyranny, violence, and complete lawlessness....

To this we subscribe: G. Zheleznov, Vinogradov, F. Belinskii.

Dec. 14, 1926

True copy


http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/images.gif/d3presid.gif

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit...t/d2presid.html (http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/d2presid.html)

Stalin was a bastard get over it kids.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Stalinists (on Che-Lives atleast) are generally 10-15 year old kids that have a fancy idolization of Stalin. They tend to disregard and make excuses of Stalin's horrific actions. They consider Stalin, Lenin's rightful heir. They consider Stalin a Marxist ( ). They worship him as a skinhead today would worship Hitler. They feel that Stalin has done almost no wrongdoing, and praise all of his actions. They tend to forget that things Stalin did would not resemble Lenin's actions, and were not Marxist. Stalin assasinated Lenin's rightful heir, Trotsky.

I can not speak that every Stalinist is like this. However 95% of the Stalinists on Che-Lives are misguided, uneducated, ignorant young teens. Who instead of idolizing someone such as Britney Spears, or Pokemon; they idolize a mass murdering, contradicting authoritarian.

You are right. There are some young kids that idolise Stalin in some odd perverted way.

Now, let's take a count of how many "10-15 year old kids" that idolise the Trot and MANY other silly little anarchist "idols".

No one here really wants to do that however. They would rather not find out how many of the Trots, Socialists, Anarchists and "leftists" are really just "misguided, uneducated, ignorant young teens".

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that our friend Always Question takes his line not from actual experience or education but more so from the fact he wants to be "known" and "recognised" as someone who fits the "che-lives" model to perfection.



I belong to a party here in the UK which upholds Stalin, most members in my branch are well over 60 and have been involved in the labour movement for decades. The statement that 'Stalinist is another word for Fascist' would explain why tuesday week there is a talk being given on the rise of the BNP and how to fight it.


I'm still on the books in that party Comrade Clay. It's good to see things are still moving.



I'm not talking about elections. I'm talking about who would have rightfully taken Lenin's place as an upstanding Marxist-Leninist. Not Stalin; Stalin followed his own guidelines, his own non-Marxist beliefs. Stalin did not participate in the revolution; and Stalin was blinded by the power.


Well Mr. Question normally I can't be arsed to respond to these comments however in this specific case I will simply use YOUR OWN WORDS.

Are statements like these. Were you alive when Stalin was in power? Were you in the Soviet Union back then? So how exactly can you say these things as if you 'watched' thse events carry out? Oh, but you read books/essays/reports/etc about Stalin that tell you these things. Well have you ever heard of propoganda? It's the same sort of thing.

What really gave us a laugh was that this snippet was from the very same post. Goodness son, what were you thinking? That's that.



Please spare me all of your Stalin didn't do this/that stories. They hold absolutely know merit, and to try and deny maybe a thousand deaths is one thing; however to try and deny millions upon millions of innocent deaths is absolutely insane.


Prove it my boy.



I don't deny there is an ideological difference between what is traditionally referred to as Fascism and the Stalinist brand of Fascism. My point, which, I think, should be accessible, is that Fascism is in essence Totalitarianism and Stalinism, too, is in essence Totalitarianism. Such idiocy is, of course, altogether a thing of the Right.




This is pure babble.



If Stalin is any kind of Marxist you can call me Susana.


Well, I can only do what is asked of me Susana.



Stalin was a murderer, that is all he was.

HAHAHA, he also made movies where he was the "hero" of the revolution....


Yes, he WAS indeed a murderer just like Comrade Guevara. Unfortunately esse, revolution is not EASY. There will always be those of the former ruling class that make it their primary goal in life to bring socialism to it's knees and in turn bring the former ruling class back into power.

Don't worry son, the Soviet films showing comrade Stalin going to Berlin were for ENTERTAINMENT. No one tried to hide that fact.

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:23 AM
Stalinists.

Stalinists (on Che-Lives atleast) are generally 10-15 year old kids that have a fancy idolization of Stalin. They tend to disregard and make excuses of Stalin's horrific actions. They consider Stalin, Lenin's rightful heir. They consider Stalin a Marxist ( :blink: ). They worship him as a skinhead today would worship Hitler. They feel that Stalin has done almost no wrongdoing, and praise all of his actions. They tend to forget that things Stalin did would not resemble Lenin's actions, and were not Marxist. Stalin assasinated Lenin's rightful heir, Trotsky.

I can not speak that every Stalinist is like this. However 95% of the Stalinists on Che-Lives are misguided, uneducated, ignorant young teens. Who instead of idolizing someone such as Britney Spears, or Pokemon; they idolize a mass murdering, contradicting authoritarian.

Good to see that you are not one.

As for the Stalinists on this board who do not follow under this stereotype, you know who you are.
i was wondering what a Stalinist thinks.

[Individual]

You are right. There are some young kids that idolise Stalin in some odd perverted way.

Now, let's take a count of how many "10-15 year old kids" that idolise the Trot and MANY other silly little anarchist "idols".

My point exactly. I never said that all misguided young teens only idolize Stalin. Hell, obvious odds would probably be that far less than one percent of teens idolize Stalin. What my point was, is that the majority of Stalinists (and yes, I did write on Che-Lives) on Che-Lives are young teenagers whose friends worship Hitler or something of the sort; so in turn, the pick the next best. They read Stalin propoganda, and eat it up like candy.

Isn't it also obvious how many misguided teens run around Che-Lives and support Marxism period. You know that in 10 years that most of them will be sitting in line to get into the Republican convention, that is just the way the world turns. It doesn't make these children worthless, however it is understandable. Children just look for something 'cool' or 'rebelious' in which they can participate until the next 'hip' thing. It has happened for generations, that's life. However for the kids that are so infatuated with Stalin, and complain that the US media is bias (which it is), yet will believe something if it told them that Stalin raised 20 million dollars to benefit starving children on Neptune.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that our friend Always Question takes his line not from actual experience or education but more so from the fact he wants to be "known" and "recognised" as someone who fits the "che-lives" model to perfection.

Wow RAF. You've hit me on the tee. As why I've gotten into numerous arguments with 'key' Che-Lives members. As I have an actual social life, an actual job, an actual life to support myself of; I am not bothered with 'cliques' and 'internet friendships' on Che-Lives. As I have made conversation with a couple members on Che-Lives, this is not my main goal. What I find funny is your constant put-downs of labelling members as 'kids'. In a large percentage of your recent posts, you seem to love to use this to label people. You 'claim' you are a 'real communist' and you constantly downsize other members for not being 'real communists'. What I'd like to know, which you have yet to tell me (as you claim you can't tell it over the internet, while other members seem to have no problem whatsoever) what your 'communist' group is.

RAF. It is not hard to exaggerate over the internet. You claim that you are of adult status, yet for all you know, I could be 5 years old. Maybe even 105; what gives? So don't give me this garbage about how you are a 'real communist' when you cannot prove a single thing, yet you often bring it up; and we are supposed to believe you?


Well Mr. Question normally I can't be arsed to respond to these comments however in this specific case I will simply use YOUR OWN WORDS.

Are statements like these. Were you alive when Stalin was in power? Were you in the Soviet Union back then? So how exactly can you say these things as if you 'watched' thse events carry out? Oh, but you read books/essays/reports/etc about Stalin that tell you these things. Well have you ever heard of propoganda? It's the same sort of thing.

What really gave us a laugh was that this snippet was from the very same post. Goodness son, what were you thinking? That's that.

Exactly. While you go on about how Stalin is a great man; can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't kill all these people? No. As well as I can't positively prove that he did. For you 'Stalinists' to try and cover up things that positively happened (ie. the famine, jailed citizens, exiled and assasinated members of political parties) is like the Bush administration covering up things that have positively happened. What is your excuse for the famine? Oh, Stalin just forgot those people were there? Oops. Or maybe, it wasn't Stalin's fault. Members of his party didn't inform him. Or maybe; the food was sent, it was just intercepted by uh, uh, rats. I am positive you already have something to come back on this with, but my question to you is; how can you prove it?


Prove it my boy.

Like I said; I cannot positively prove anything. I am no professor, and I have a life of which I cannot spend all of my time researching something to prove your point.

However can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't have killed/kill all of these people?

Oh wait, they had a lower death rate. Well boo-hoo. And the US doesn't exaggerate deaths of Iraqi civillians? The US doesn't create it's own propoganda? And the funny thing is, not all of the media in the US is controlled by the state, as it was under Stalin. It would have been extremely easy for Stalin to hide numbers, or lie about events that took place. That is why I don't take Stalin's papers to have merit when it comes to number of deaths. Who was ensuring that these numbers were always correct? Nobody but Stalin himself.

By the way, here is a quote from 'Maoist Internationalist Movement' :

Yes, he killed many people, too many even according to himself

MIM quote (http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/stalin.html)


Well, I can only do what is asked of me Susana

So you consider starved farmers, imprisoned innocent civillians, a hierarchy in which Stalin led, and state controlled farms and media Marxist? It's easy to call me Susana, but it's not easy to defend how solid of a Marxist that Stalin was. He may have become more Marxist towards the end of his reign, however even then it was not very Marxist.

I do not have the time to go through all of your bickering. As for Bolshevika; you bet that is the credit your site deserves. Why wouldn't you want more like yourself to join? Misguided Stalinists that complain about US propoganda, yet believed a bogus story about how Castro raped a young girl. You opened your arms to me because you had nobody else. Your site contains about 10 members that may post within a single week. The huge majority of the threads are literally articles stolen from the web. There is no way you can deny this either. ;)

Work.

Edit: By the way.

Arguing Stalin with a Stalinist is like arguing God with a devout Catholic. I can't win.

[Vinny Rafarino]

My point exactly. I never said that all misguided young teens only idolize Stalin. Hell, obvious odds would probably be that far less than one percent of teens idolize Stalin. What my point was, is that the majority of Stalinists (and yes, I did write on Che-Lives) on Che-Lives are young teenagers whose friends worship Hitler or something of the sort; so in turn, the pick the next best. They read Stalin propoganda, and eat it up like candy.

Isn't it also obvious how many misguided teens run around Che-Lives and support Marxism period. You know that in 10 years that most of them will be sitting in line to get into the Republican convention, that is just the way the world turns. It doesn't make these children worthless, however it is understandable. Children just look for something 'cool' or 'rebelious' in which they can participate until the next 'hip' thing. It has happened for generations, that's life. However for the kids that are so infatuated with Stalin, and complain that the US media is bias (which it is), yet will believe something if it told them that Stalin raised 20 million dollars to benefit starving children on Neptune

I cannot agree more. It just so happens to be the "fad of the month" to slag "stalinist-kiddies" without taking into account the "trot-kiddies" and "anarchist-kiddies". They ALL exist in large numbers here.



Wow RAF. You've hit me on the tee. As why I've gotten into numerous arguments with 'key' Che-Lives members. As I have an actual social life, an actual job, an actual life to support myself of; I am not bothered with 'cliques' and 'internet friendships' on Che-Lives. As I have made conversation with a couple members on Che-Lives, this is not my main goal. What I find funny is your constant put-downs of labelling members as 'kids'. In a large percentage of your recent posts, you seem to love to use this to label people. You 'claim' you are a 'real communist' and you constantly downsize other members for not being 'real communists'. What I'd like to know, which you have yet to tell me (as you claim you can't tell it over the internet, while other members seem to have no problem whatsoever) what your 'communist' group is.



Perhaps I truly have hit you to a tee. I've seen stranger things happen.

It's not that I can't tell you over the internet, it's simply that I now won't. Those who remember my recent trip to Mexico will understand why. I'm sure if you searched hard enough, you could easily find some information in the archives.

The fact I refer to these lads as "kids" and "son" really bothers you I see. That's why I do it.


Exactly. While you go on about how Stalin is a great man; can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't kill all these people? No. As well as I can't positively prove that he did. For you 'Stalinists' to try and cover up things that positively happened (ie. the famine, jailed citizens, exiled and assasinated members of political parties) is like the Bush administration covering up things that have positively happened. What is your excuse for the famine? Oh, Stalin just forgot those people were there? Oops. Or maybe, it wasn't Stalin's fault. Members of his party didn't inform him. Or maybe; the food was sent, it was just intercepted by uh, uh, rats. I am positive you already have something to come back on this with, but my question to you is; how can you prove it?



I'm not the one claiming Stalin butchered millions with no empirical evidence. It's not my job to "prove it"

On the contrary, I agree that "famine" occured. I do however disagree that Stalin was responsible. Perhaps you should view alternate sources for responsibility. There are many credible reports that place a great deal of blame on the former Ukranian aristocrats (kulaks). We also have to consider that this was the first attempt at agriculture collectivisation. I lay blame on EVERYONE, the party included.

I also agree that subversives were indeed jailed and executed. This is a just punishment during times of revolution.


Like I said; I cannot positively prove anything. I am no professor, and I have a life of which I cannot spend all of my time researching something to prove your point.

However can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't have killed/kill all of these people?


Once again, the burden of proof does not lie with those who refuse to swallow these obvious lies. I'm shocked someone of your visible intelligence does not feel the same. Well what can you do eh?



It would have been extremely easy for Stalin to hide numbers, or lie about events that took place.


Now try to hide 20 million bodies.



By the way, here is a quote from 'Maoist Internationalist Movement' :

Yes, he killed many people, too many even according to himself



Is it not safe to say that even if you whack one man, your conscience may eventually get the better of you? I find no relevance in this statement.



It's easy to call me Susana,

I was not speaking to you.


but it's not easy to defend how solid of a Marxist that Stalin was. He may have become more Marxist towards the end of his reign, however even then it was not very Marxist

If you can provide one example, just one mind you, I will then feel free to refute it.



Arguing Stalin with a Stalinist is like arguing God with a devout Catholic. I can't win.


This is true mate, you indeed can't win.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Argh! All this argueing over ists is really getting aggrevating. We are all communists/socialists, and the only major conflict that there should be here is the one between the authoritarians and the anarchists. Although I consider myself a Leninist, I don't agree with 100% of everything he said. I pick what I think the best ideas are from everyone, and come up with some of my own if I feel the need to. It is ok to admire a leader, be it Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, what have you...but that DOESN'T mean that you should blindly embrase all their ideas. Can you all just [i]TRY and think for yourselves for once?

[Saint-Just]

Good to see you still around Cassius Clay.


So you consider starved farmers, imprisoned innocent civillians, a hierarchy in which Stalin led, and state controlled farms and media Marxist?

You would have to consider the relationship of Leninism to Marxist, is Leninist Marxist. The things you point out were ideas moreover put forward by Lenin but were also evident in Marx's works.

Under Stalin the Media was Marxist controlled, private enterprise was diminished and counter-revolutionaries were imprisoned. All political parties have elements of heirarchy, what is important in the CPSU is the elements of democracy within the party.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 02:33 AM
Although I consider myself a Leninist, I don't agree with 100% of everything he said.
Or understand it...

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

What exactly is a "stalinist." Where do we keep making this IDIOTIC mistake?? I have seen nothing but propoganda coming from so called "leftists" here while the "stalinists" get bashed over and over again while presented reasonable debate. Collectivization is a MARXIST idea. Regardless of how it was implemented, it was at its root, marxist. Now will you claim collectivization is evil because stalin did it? then you are not marxist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

"Stalinist" is a word coined by individuals who believe the anti-communist propaganda that has been pushed since 1917.

Those of us who are considered "Stalinists" believe ourselves to be Marxists.

[Individual]

" Those of us who are considered "Stalinists" believe ourselves to be Marxists "

Sure thing, Stalinist.

[Vinny Rafarino]

last word.



Edit:


This thread is now closed, anyone who would like to see how us "stalinists" feel about this issue, I recommend the Stalin sticky in History. The last time we let this issue stew too long in OI, it became unbearable.