Log in

View Full Version : Libya, Ethiopia



koba
16th January 2002, 06:17
Hi
id like u to write here all you know about Lybia, for what i know a merging of Socialism and Islam was done a while ago in that country, yet i do not know wether it worked out well or not or if its still socialist today.


Also feel free to write what you know about Ethiopia, a communist state till to this day if im not mistaken. And the connection and reaction to the famines there.

links would be greatly appreciated



thx,
-koba

GenosseM
16th January 2002, 16:57
I don't know anything about Lybia and I don't know if Ethiopia is a communistic State, but I do know that there is an programm for the children of the ethiopic slaves who where brought to america! If they want to, they are allowed to come back to there original country! This is the result of the fight of some Rastafaries from Jamaica! The only problem is that people of ethiopia hate the immigrants because they get some money from government to found their new existance, but the money makes them richer then hardworking ethiopic wo/man!!!
I hope it is "helpfull" for you

CommieBastard
16th January 2002, 17:00
Where you have said communist in reference to the two countries Libya and Ethiopia above, please repace the word Stalinist. Both are prime examples of a perversion of socialist ideals towards the selfish needs of a disgusting dictator.
Ethiopia especially, the famines there were caused when the Stalinist dictator had granaries in the north of the country bombed in order to scare out rebels that he beleived to be hiding in the region. This killed a hell of a lot of people via means of starvation. And guess what? all the money that went to ethiopia for the famine only fed one set of people - the army.
fucking disgusting...

HardcoreCommie
16th January 2002, 22:33
Ethiopia was a stalinist state until about a decade ago. Lybia's "ideology" was and continues to be the expedient choice of Moamar Ghadaffi and whatever he feels will be good propaganda.

koba
17th January 2002, 05:16
Commiebasterd i will not replace it with the word stalinism simply because wether you like it or not stalinism is a type of communism, just as marxism or maoism ect. is. So me putting the word there was appropriate. Make no mistake i hate stalinism as much as you do.

As for the rest references of were you got this info would be useful, since Id rather have proof (especially for what you wrote commiebasterd, it intrests me even though i doubt it is the whole truth). names of Books on Moamar Ghadaffi or the Libyan or Ethiopian revolution would also be useful.

CommieBastard
17th January 2002, 22:39
Stalinism is not a type of communism. Stalinism is Fascism with the excuse of calling it communism, as was national socialism, or nazism to the average man on the street. Why people are willing to recognise that nazism isnt socialism, but not that stalinism isnt communism, i will never comprehend.
Neither Libya nor Ethiopia were run on communist principles; there was no democracy, no freedom, no equality.
As for my source for the information it is an admittedly biased source, because it was a documentary on the TV which was investigating the effectiveness of band aid. The fact of the matter is that Ethiopia was a fascist dictatorship that came into existence by pretending to be communist, and once in power the dictator attempted to quash all opponents to his power, thus he bombed the granaries of the northern towns. I have made a bit of a study of the sahel region of africa, into which northern ethiopia falls. The balance of ecology there is very fragile, and it takes very little to put the farming out of balance, and cause mass starvation. That small amount of bombing led to the whole thing getting screwed, and caused a famine on a massive scale.
Ofcourse, Geldorf and his friends didnt pay attention to any of this when they decided to play at being compassionate for their own sense of self-satisfaction. They just sent in the money and food without thought for consequences. This fuelled the continuation of the military campaign against the rebels, and also sent a message to them that the whole world was against them.
whoops, look like the little rock star made a mistake.. but thats ok, he still denies he did anything wrong to this day, and society continues to reward him for the ability to wail with a six figure bank balance.
oh what fun.

koba
18th January 2002, 04:08
What makes stalinism communism is its economic system. But it doesnt follow communist principles, or values, it only takes the economic communism and merges it with a dictatorship. Stalin ONLY applied communism economically.

though I doubt the correctness of a TV documentry, for i have seen many bogus ones. I dont think ones opinion should soley based by a documentry, which for all we know can be filled with lies and disguised capitalist propaghanda.

koba
18th January 2002, 04:16
I think its important to know both sides of the medal before judging....

the media will always show us the errors which were commited but maybe (i dont know) there were improvements since thye came to power in Ethiopia or Lybia.

Exept for that any rumours or knowledge of problems or improvements in Lybia ?

peaccenicked
18th January 2002, 15:29
The system of economy in the former USSR was nothing
to do with communism as viewed by Marx, Engels and Lenin. The economy was so centralised that it only attended to the paper needs of the five year plans. Everything had to look good on paper. Meanwhile chronic shoddy goods and shortages were the order of the day. The black market thrived under such conditions.
The West was able to show superiority in almost every department . An economic system without democracy is a
recipe for negative control of production and outright complacency.

(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:31 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 4:37 pm on Jan. 18, 2002)

CommieBastard
18th January 2002, 15:53
Exactly, a 'communist' system of economy is not communism without communist politics. Both politics and economy are inseperable parts of a whole, intermerged, intertwined.
A communist economy needs the rule of the people, because a communist economy is supposed to produce what the people both need and want. If what you have is a centralised govt., then it produces things that that centralised govt. wants, and distributes the luxuries only to that centralised govt.
Thus why Stalinism is fascism with a communist excuse, but it still isn't communism.

Anyway, only the bit about the distribution of goods solely to the army came from documentary, as i said, i have also made a study geographically of the area which the north of ethiopia falls into, though i couldnt quote any specific sources without trawling through a hell of a lot of notes...

I Will Deny You
18th January 2002, 20:43
One of my roommates is Ethiopian and she's sitting next to me, and she's never heard of Band-Aid. I guess that tells us a lot about how the food was distributed.

She's a leftist, and views the Ethiopian government as the extreme right.

peaccenicked
18th January 2002, 22:00
Interesting speech from Al-Gaddafi
http://allafrica.com/stories/200107110003.html

koba
18th January 2002, 22:32
thx for the info.

Don't diss the five year plans you know as well as i do that they worked. Wether they were centralized or not, doesn't matter since it was at the time what the country needed to get back on its feet. And anyway THIS IS OFF TOPIC for once lets stick to the topic goddam.

CommieBastard
18th January 2002, 22:38
something working economically doesnt mean it is justifiable morally...
hitler's plans worked pretty well in shaping up the German economy, but that doesnt mean they werent morally reprehensible...

koba
18th January 2002, 23:00
did i say it was ? i think not .... and holy fuck is it really that hard to stay on topic

CommieBastard
19th January 2002, 14:24
when someone makes the claim that stalin was a communist, YES it is hard to stay on topic, because such lies require a refutal.

koba
19th January 2002, 22:00
Look CommieBASTARD (the name which you stand so well by)

I respect your opinion, respect mine and quit being an ass cause mine wont change. Can't you read ? the topic is written clearly above ...if you cant respect that then i suggest you get lost.

CommieBastard
20th January 2002, 14:35
you know, all conversation in a topic doesnt have to stick strictly to the topic title... if someone brings up a related point, it is allowed for it to be discussed. You have shown a typical and deppressing reaction by reciting the off-topic mantra, but the fact stands that you are incorrect to call stalinism communism, and i am afraid that it is essential that distinctions are made between the two...

koba
22nd January 2002, 02:45
oké...... back to Lybia and Ethiopia, any info would be apreciated

CommieBastard
22nd January 2002, 17:15
I already told you everything about ethiopia...

new democracy
10th August 2002, 21:54
about ethiopia you can go to the websites of the opposition parties: http://www.eprp.com/ , http://members.aol.com/alpha6986/tand/tigrian.html , http://www.medhin.org/ , http://www.tegbar.org/ or to http://www.ethiopians.com/hright.html and http://www.ethiopians.com/qey_shibir.htm . about libya you can go to: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/d...rahim_ighneiwa/ (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dr_ibrahim_ighneiwa/) , http://www.nfsl-libya.com/ , http://www.libyaontheweb.com/lds.html , http://members.tripod.com/~sijill/ , http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/fig.htm .

new democracy
10th August 2002, 22:24
i forgot to mention: http://www.arab.net/libya/libya_contents.html .

new democracy
10th August 2002, 23:32
you can also go to: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...ok/geos/ly.html (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ly.html) .

new democracy
12th August 2002, 18:13
well if you are praising the communist regime in ethiopia, you are a stalinist. the communist regime in ethiopia came to power in a military coup in 1,974 their leader was mengistu. mengistu was responsable to many atrocities and he terrorised the ethiopian people. he brutaly represed rebels that fight against him or fight for the independce of eritria[eritria got independece in 1,993 the party that led the strugle for independece was the eritrian people liberation front (eplf)]. the cuban army help to fight rebels, and the ussr gave the ethiopian regime wepons. in 1,991 the cuban army live the country, the ussr collapse and mengistu ran away to zimbabwe. the ethiopian people revolutinoury democratic front[EPRDF, an alliance controled by the tigirian people liberaton front(tplf)] in an alliance with the eplf took power an create another stalinist regime. to know about the atrocities of mengistu go to: http://www.ethiopians.com/qey_shibir.htm . here are some of the atrocities of the current regime:


THE HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION IN ETHIOPIA





THE EPRDF government has been rigorously condemned by the world at large for its gross violations of the human rights of the Ethiopian people. In fact nothing exposes the regime's character more than its record in the field of human rights. Demagigy to the contrary aside, the government emerges as one of the most repressive governments in the continent.

the EPRDF government tops the list of the countries which have detained independent journalists;
it has more than 13,000 political prisoners;
has disappeared hundreds of others including EPRP leaders and members like TSEGAYE GEBRE MEDHIN, SITOTAW HUSSEIN, YISHAK DEBRETSION, AMHA BELETE, TEKALI GEBRE SELASSIE, MS ABERASH BERTA, TESFAYE KEBEDE, HAGOS BEZABIH, AZANAW DEMILE,LEMA HAILU,ETC.;
has muzzeld the press and repressed dissent;
controls the judiciary, the polcie and security force and the army is primarily Tigrean (the ethnic group of the ruling group called the Tigrean People's Liberation Front or the Ethiopian People's Revolutioanry Democratic Front);
arrests without warrant, keeps prisoners lockwed up in dungeons and underround holes for long periods without any trial, practices torture routinely;
has imposed totalitarian control over civic associations, imprisoned civic leaders on made up charges, gunned down others like Ato Asefa Maru, forced into exile many more and set up its own satellite unions and associations in the place of the autonomous ones;
controls the country's economic life through firms and comaponies set up by itself as private enterprises; harasses other trademen and businessmen; uses political power to secure its economic dominance;
tops the list (at a world level) of thsoe countries who had dismissed the maximum number of judges; has appointed its loyalists (in most cases inept) as judges;
committs atrocites in areas of aremd conflict;
has put in place an ethnic politics that has division and exclusionas its rationale and practices thnic discrimination and repression against other ethnic groups in the country;
interfers in the affairs of religion and has imposed its cadres as patriarchs or sheikhs; has massacred believers at the Anwar Mosque and the Adebabye Iyesus Church of Gondar, holds Sheiks and monks in jail; is accused of murdering Aba Fekade Sellasie in broad daylight inside the St. Estiphanos Church of Addis Abeba;
denies citizenship and nationaity rights to political opponents; practices forced exile to punish opposition; jails realtives for alleged offenses of any kin;
has crossed borders to murder opponents (the killing of Jattene Ali and Afework Alemseged in Kenya), to burn villages (into Somalia), to kidnap dissident refugees (in Djibouti) and has also handed over Djiboutian refugees to the Djibouti government which threatend their lives;
ITS SECUITY FORCES KILL AT RANDOM BUT ARE NEVER CHARGED OR BROUGHT BEFORE A COURT OF LAW.
The government of Prime Minister Meles Zenawi has time and again refused to heed the call for dialogue and peaceful political struggle. Outlawing the viable opposition like the EPRP, the Coalition of Ethiopian Democratic Forces, the Afar ARDUF, etc... it has opted for the politics of intransigence, denying the existence of political prsioners, falsely accusing the Opposition of opting for violence, jailing the leaders of legal opposition groups (like Professor Asrat Woldeyes and many others of the All Amhara People's Organization), Fitawrari Makonen Dori of the SEPDC, etc..), and reusing to seriously sit down and talk with Opposition forces. It is thus tht it refused to attend the March 1993 Peace and Reconciliation Conference in Paris and jailed the peace delegates who went to Addis Abeba to attend the December 1993 Peace and Reconciliation Conference. Abera Yemaneab, the foreign relations dept. head of COEDF at the time, has been jailed in the Central prison of Addis Ababa ever since.
Attempts have been made to cover up the dismal human rights record of the Meles Zenawi regime by making reference to the records of the fallen Mengistu regime. While this "is it better to be devoured by a hyena or a tiger?' type of comparison has worn thin we must emphatically state that the EPRDF has been in power for the last seven years and has thus passed enough time to be judged on its own merit. Its own record belies any attempt to present it as democratic, as a government that respects the rule of law and the rights of its people. it has rigged elections, set up a rubber stamp parliament (the only two independent MPs had to flee to the USA in 1997), and pays lip service to human rights while repressing the people systematically and ruthlessly. Multipartism has been turned into a joke with the ruling party cloning itself in various regions and under various names or by setting up satellite groups and then claiming pluralism does exist.

"EVEN TO THE CASUAL OBSERVER, MELES'S DEMOCRATIC SPEECHES STRIKE A HOLLOW NOTE.'' wrote Lara Santoro in the Christian Science Monitor (April 23/1998). The hollowness of official speeches and claims have been exposed time and again by local and international human rights organizations. The list of prisoners is long, the record of the violations numbing, the demagogy nauseating. After 17 years of totalitarian rule by a repressive military clique, the Ethiopian people have fallen into the clutches of another repressive clique whose main difference with its predecessor is that it claims to be democratic and concerned for the establishment of the rule of law. When Ethiopians say not much has rally changed they are not being forgetful or extreme but bitterly expressing their dashed hopes and grim realities.

The EPRP has always been a thorn on the side of the TPLF because it had consistently opposed the totalitarian politics and criminal actions of the Tigrean front even when the TPLF had not yet assumed power. The TPLF, aided all the time by the Eritrean front now in power in Asmara, had waged war against the EPRP in Tigrai and Gondar in the late seventies and then in Gondar and Gojjam in 1991. The TPLF has thus captued in 1991 and disappeared scores of EPRP leaders and members , murdered EPRP leader Gebre Igziabher (Gaim ) in Addis Ababa in 1993, jailed and disappeared countless others like Aberash Berta, Lemma Hailu, Tesfaye Kebede, etc.. and conducted a relentless policy of repression against the EPRP. The EPRP's search for legality and the right to struggle peacefully have always been rejected by the ruling group on one pretext or another.



II/ AMONG THE DISAPPEARED WE CITE THE FOLLOWING:

Hagos Atsbeha (a former TPLF member)-since 1988;
Tsegaye Gebre Medhin, Yishak Debretsion, Sitotaw Hussein, Amha Belete, Teklai gebre Sellasie, Hagos Bezabih, Abera, Azanaw Demile-EPRP leaders and senior members-since 1991
Abebe Ainekulu, Wondusirak Desta, Alazar, Getachew Eshetu, Aberash Berta, Lemma Haile, Eyob Tekabe, Demissie Tesfaye, journalist Berhanu Ijigu,Tesfaye Kebede since 1993-1994;
Mengistu Eshetu and Mot Baynor since 1996;
Major Workineh Ouisa,Ayalew Abate, Damtew Tafesse, Major Bisrat Filflu, Getachew Abebe, Teshome Beyene, Abayneh Shiferaw, Berhanu Zewdu Hussein Osman, Mola Ijigu, Estifo Argaw,Dereje Deme,Getnet Asnake, Girma Moges Newaye (kidnapped from Djibouti)
captain Bulto Kumsa,Mohamed Cheheem, Mulu Ambaw, journalist Kumsa Berayu, major Hailu Fufa, Zewdu Gebre Mariam (former TPLF fighter), Feyera Negera, Jemal Hussein, Basha Shimeles Argaw, Berhanu Asemu, colonel Befekadu Disassa, major Yohannes Afework, Sewinet Mulualem,Abiywork haile Mariam, Teshome Bimrew, Retta Mosisa, Abdi Mohamed, getachew Abebe,Alebatchew Worku Kassaye,Lt. Eyasu Temam, Captain Daniel, Wolde Michael Borriso,Yosef Ayele Bati, Lamessa Boru,Kassahun Habte,Abdullahi Abdi,Ibado Abdullahi,
etc.....
The list of summary executions and killings and arbitrary arrest is very very long.
III/ Documentation

There are a number of reports and documents written by local and international bodies on the human rights situation in Ethiopia. We cite below some of the documents that give a detailed picture of the violations of the rights of the people by the EPRDF government.

Amnesty International: Country Report; Ethiopia; 1997 Amnesty International, 1 Easton Street, London WC1X 8DJ, England. e mail [email protected] contact person: Dr. Martin Hill
Human Rights Watch: Ethiopia: The Curtailment of Rights, December 1997 report 350 Fifth Avenue,34th floor, New York,NY 10118-3299, e mail: [email protected] contact person Suleiman Ali Baldo
Ethiopian Human Rights Council: *The Human Rights Situation in Ethiopia: 12th Report, November 1997 EHRCO, p.o.box 2432,Addis Abeba, Ethiopia; fax no. 251 1 514539
Solidarity Committee for Ethiopian Political Prisoners (SOCEPP)



ETHIOPIA: The EPRDF and Human Rights , 1996

Selected Statements on the Human Rights Situation in Ethiopia (1995-1998)

SOCEPP, postfach 411305, 12123 Berlin,Germany

SOCEPP, p.o.box 28605, Oakdale, MN 55128,USA. e- mail: [email protected] contact person:Ezra Nathaniel

Committee to Protect Journalists
fill in the address and the title of their last statement