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lucid
19th March 2004, 02:42
Turn on the History channel to see some footage of the Saddam regime and how they operated. Then come back and explain to me why we shouldn't be there. It's probably past a lot of your bed times so tune in tomorrow at 8. History Channel is doing a week long special on Iraq.

Stupid red douche bags.

Morpheus
19th March 2004, 04:02
Liberals & Conservatives only whine about dictatorships when they're enemy dictatorships. Notice how the history channel doesn't have many pieces on the dictatorships in Kuwait, Egypt, Pakistan or Uzbeckistan. That's 'cause those dictatorships are US-backed. You people also backed Saddam in the '80s, why should we think you give a rats ass about Saddam's crimes when you supported him through his worst crimes? Here's a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in the mid-80s:

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/09/30/sproject.irq.regime.change/rumsfeld.80s.jpg

He was the US's envoy to Iraq back them and he didn't have a problem with Saddam's atrocities when he was on your side.

Dr. Rosenpenis
19th March 2004, 04:49
Precisely what Morpheus said!
At first, you hypoctits were always going on and on about how it's all about enforcing the law and preventing him form being a nuclear threat. When it was revealed that he wasn't a nuclear threat, then you start saying how that wasn't important at all and it's all about liberating them from Hussein's oppressive regime. When you're confronted with facts that reveal America's true interests in Iraq (such as the fact that we only oppose dictatorships when they're either in danger of resulting in successful socialism or when they're not convenient for (exploitative) trading with the US), then you start saying how it's different this time and all that bad stuff is in the past.
In the past my ass!
If it was all in the past, then why is America focusing it's target on Iraq's dictatorship and not in China, Saudi Arabia, Brunei, the US =D , or anywhere else?
The US has supported and created countless dictatorships including one in my country (Brazil) that resulted in the merciless killing of thousands of leftist and communist activists. Then you wonder why the world doesn't want America "regime-changing" other countries.

At least the History Channel isn't showing something about Hitler or the Civil War. For a while there it seemed that everything on that bloody channle had to with at least one of those two.

Intifada
19th March 2004, 17:21
did the programme tell the viewers of how the CIA helped him and the baath party get to power?

did it tell them of regans support for him?

did it tell them of how the americans even sent rumsfeld to shake hands with him?

did it tell them of how america supported the almost daily gassing of iranians during the war which they supported in the 1980s?

did it tell them of how america ignored the attrocities of halabja, and then rewarded saddam?

LuZhiming
20th March 2004, 01:10
Hmm, I wonder why the History Channel won't show clips on the Contras mutilating corpses, the Shah of Iran's secret police inserting glass into the rectum, or Islam Karimov boiling people alive? Just shutup lucid, the U.S. has always participated in mass murders around the world.

lucid
20th March 2004, 01:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 06:21 PM
did the programme tell the viewers of how the CIA helped him and the baath party get to power?

did it tell them of regans support for him?

did it tell them of how the americans even sent rumsfeld to shake hands with him?

did it tell them of how america supported the almost daily gassing of iranians during the war which they supported in the 1980s?

did it tell them of how america ignored the attrocities of halabja, and then rewarded saddam?
So we should of allowed Saddam because of what happened 20 years ago? You fugtards are talking about shit that happened 20 years ago and ignore the fact that saddam was a psychopathic son of a whore that needed to be removed from power. Did the Bush administration use questionable tactics to try and get the world to back the US? Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that Saddam needed to be removed.

You people are so blind with hatred that you will do anything to find fault with the USA. For example lets look at the fact that some Iraqis are protesting the occupation of their country by the US and their allies. You assholes just see it as an example of US emperialism while ignoring the fact that the Iraqis ability to protest the US occupation is a beautiful thing.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
20th March 2004, 02:24
Saddam was the only thing keeping Iraq from going to Islamic fundamentalism. He put in progressive reforms that gave protections to non-Islamics and women and created a relatively socialistic economy that kept the rich-poor gap under control. He is certainly not a very loveable guy, but he did a lot of good things for the Iraqis. I would go so far to say that Saddam was the savior of the Iraqi people, and now that he is gone, the people of Iraq are going to have a long, choatic, and confused time ahead of them filled with years of exploitation, poverty, religious/ethnic intolerance, and fundamentalism.

lucid
20th March 2004, 04:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 03:24 AM
Saddam was the only thing keeping Iraq from going to Islamic fundamentalism. He put in progressive reforms that gave protections to non-Islamics and women and created a relatively socialistic economy that kept the rich-poor gap under control. He is certainly not a very loveable guy, but he did a lot of good things for the Iraqis. I would go so far to say that Saddam was the savior of the Iraqi people, and now that he is gone, the people of Iraq are going to have a long, choatic, and confused time ahead of them filled with years of exploitation, poverty, religious/ethnic intolerance, and fundamentalism.
I see, so we let the tyrant stay in power so that another tyrant, or groups of tyrants, can't take power. That makes about as much sense as two boys fucking. Lets forget about him killing countless numbers of his own people and give him props for keeping "the poor rich gap under control". Lets forget about the fact that it would be much easier to get rid of these "Islamic fundamentalist..." if more countries had the balls to take them on instead of sitting back and *****ing about what the USA did 40 years ago. Those euro scumbags are just pissed off that we accomplished more in 300 years than they did in 2000.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
20th March 2004, 04:42
That makes about as much sense as two boys fucking.
EXCUSE ME? Care to clarify that?


Lets forget about him killing countless numbers of his own people and give him props for keeping "the poor rich gap under control".

No matter who gets power in Iraq, lots of people will die. The only thing is which people will die. Fundamentalist counter-revolutionaries or women who commit adultry?


Lets forget about the fact that it would be much easier to get rid of these "Islamic fundamentalist..." if more countries had the balls to take them on instead of sitting back and *****ing about what the USA did 40 years ago.

For the US to get "rid" of the Islamic fundamentalists would require something along genocide Hitler. Saddam was the leader of Iraq for over 30 years, and unlike the Americans, he was loved by many of the Iraqi people. He kept the fundamentalists at bay without resorting to gencide. (That town that was gassed during the Kurdish rebellion could hardly be considered genocide.)


if more countries had the balls to take them on instead of sitting back and *****ing about what the USA did 40 years ago.

Now how exactly do you propose that you "take them on"? Al-Queda isn't going to line up in a British style army and march forward in formation and blitzkrieg Washington D.C. you know.


Those euro scumbags are just pissed off that we accomplished more in 300 years than they did in 2000.

No, I think they are upset more because the government is filled with conceited pigs like you!

Intifada
20th March 2004, 12:49
So we should of allowed Saddam because of what happened 20 years ago?

no when the hell did i say that you dick?


You fugtards are talking about shit that happened 20 years ago and ignore the fact that saddam was a psychopathic son of a whore that needed to be removed from power.

we did not ignore the fact that saddam was a psychopathic son of a whore that needed to be removed from power. that was the stupid neocons in the whitehouse during the 80s.



Did the Bush administration use questionable tactics to try and get the world to back the US?

yes, but not because they wanted saddam out, but because they wanted iraqi oil.


You assholes just see it as an example of US emperialism while ignoring the fact that the Iraqis ability to protest the US occupation is a beautiful thing.

just because they can protest, this war is justified?! they get shot at when they protest, whats the point in protesting if you are in danger of getting killed?

is the fact that safe water is now only available to 60% of the population, compared with 85% before the war a "beautiful thing"?

before the war cooking gas was 500 dinars/bottle, now it is 5000. is that a "beautiful thing"?

beef was 3000 dinars/kg, now its 7000. is that a "beautiful thing"?

at least 10000 iraqi civilians were killed in this war. is that a "beautiful thing"?

as one iraqi man said the UK and USA stands for: United to Kill US All.

Don't Change Your Name
20th March 2004, 18:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 02:24 AM
So we should of allowed Saddam because of what happened 20 years ago? You fugtards are talking about shit that happened 20 years ago and ignore the fact that saddam was a psychopathic son of a whore that needed to be removed from power. Did the Bush administration use questionable tactics to try and get the world to back the US? Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that Saddam needed to be removed.
So if I go and I kill your whole family and they don't find I'm guilty until 20 years later then you won't care about it? And what if I give the gun to someone who does that? would you just forgive me in that case?

Face it: you shouldn't have supported him in the first place. Then he became a potential threat because of his power so the idea was to invent the "rumour" that he had WMDs, so that you had an argument to go and take his oil and get cheap labour.

By the way where is Saddam now? When is he going to pay for his crimes?
And why does the U$ only goes to opposing dictatorships and support dictatorships where they are taking profits and keeping their dominance (like China)???

Intifada
20th March 2004, 18:46
did anyone see the documentary on UKTV documentaries called "kill 'em all"?

it was about the american war crimes in korea and had interviews with victims and u$ soldiers.

it made me sick

bunk
20th March 2004, 19:21
oh yeah iv'e seen that..........
BTW watch UK history not history channel, the history channel will not say a bad thing about the U.S

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 19:43
Surely it doesnt matter why the US went into Iraq the point is they did the people who should be ashamed are the people in The UN who veto'd any choice to go to war destroying the whole democratic process
And how anyone can say sadam was good for Iraq is crazy he killed his own people and if the coalittion can set up a stable democracy thats far beter than a dictatorship.

John Galt
20th March 2004, 19:50
Yes, we were wrong in supporting Sadam.

I dont see why you all get angry when we fixed our mistake.

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 19:59
Exactly and sry to b a newb but how do u peep get those badge rank things

Intifada
20th March 2004, 20:16
the real reason for war in iraq (http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/sierra.htm)

anyone who believes that bu$h went to war in order to oust saddam is wrong. america doesnt and never has given two squirts of piss about brutal leaders.

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 20:18
So why does that matter. Britain does and has always stepped in on other countries behalfs

Intifada
20th March 2004, 20:29
Britain does and has always stepped in on other countries behalfs

you have got to be fucking kidding me!?

so why dont they liberate the people of zimbabwe or the palestinians or the people of uzbekistan?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 20:33
because Zimbabwe doesnt want Britains help and the stupid people in this country would never support another war with out a motive

Intifada
20th March 2004, 20:35
because Zimbabwe doesnt want Britains help and the stupid people in this country would never support another war with out a motive

since when did britain ever wanted to help the people?

why did they support sanctions on iraq that killed half a million children? why did they bomb iraq almost daily during those years?

and who said that the people of zimbabwe didnt want britain's help?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 20:50
Robert mugabe is refusing comonwealth help and we bombed Iraq because of sadam hoping he would just surrender rather than risk more deaths

Intifada
20th March 2004, 20:53
Robert mugabe is refusing comonwealth help

im talking about the zimbabwean people, not mugabe. of course mugabe wouldnt like to be ousted!


we bombed Iraq because of sadam hoping he would just surrender rather than risk more deaths

oh come off it! you bombed iraq because he apparently had weapons of mass destruction. do you really believe that saddam would just surrender?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 20:56
He ran anyway and left the Iraqi forces in dissaray so we won more easily. And how can we do anything in Zimbabwe if Robert mugabe wont let us he steal anyaid we send for himself

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 20:57
sry he steals the aid we send 4 himself

Intifada
20th March 2004, 20:58
And how can we do anything in Zimbabwe if Robert mugabe wont let us he steal anyaid we send for himself

well you could do what you did in iraq to "liberate" the people. bomb them. obviously i wouldnt support this.

why do you support the invasion of iraq?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 21:14
we cant do that inless we have a motive cos the people wont support it and dont say they didnt support iraq cos only 40% didnt support it that means 60% did. and I supported the war beacause I believed my goverment when they said it was a threat but I think we should of got UN approval but france Vito'd it all

Intifada
20th March 2004, 21:18
so you believed that saddam was a threat to the west?! you believed the lies!? you believed that he had WMDs!?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 21:23
there was a mistake in intellegence. and if the had goverment fooled the people into doing the right thing is it so bad Iraq is free from a dictator that gassed them

Intifada
20th March 2004, 21:31
do you even know the history of this conflict?


there was a mistake in intellegence.

yes of course silly me. :rolleyes:

i cant believe that some people just believe everything the government tells them.

colin powell and condoleeza rice both stated that saddam had NO WMDs and that he was NOT a threat.


is it so bad Iraq is free from a dictator that gassed them

who gave them the gas?

how come when we found out what saddam was doing, nothing was done about it? the west kept supporting him and gave him more money and weapons.

is it so good that safe water is available to 60% of iraqis rather than 85% before the war?

is it so good that before the war cooking gas was 500 dinars/bottle, now its 5000?

is it so good that the price of beef per kg has risen by 4000 dinars?

is it so good that fruit costs 350 more dinars than it used to before the war?

is it a good thing that the coalition has left DU which will be around for billions of years?

Dune Dx
20th March 2004, 21:44
no but we can rebuild there econmy.

Sadam no longer has the opportunity to kill thousands of his own people r u saying we should of let that go on.
A peacefull resolution wasnt possible we had been trying for 14 years and nothing happend.

Intifada
20th March 2004, 21:53
no but we can rebuild there econmy.

fucking hell. :rolleyes:


Sadam no longer has the opportunity to kill thousands of his own people r u saying we should of let that go on.


The war in Iraq ended a brutal regime but there were no ongoing human rights violations on a scale which could justify the US-led invasion, Human Rights Watch has said in its annual report.


A peacefull resolution wasnt possible we had been trying for 14 years and nothing happend

no you had not! for 14 years you placed sanctions on the people of iraq. this killed half a million children! the west doesnt give a fuck about the people of iraq. dont give me so much bullshit! :angry:

STI
20th March 2004, 23:48
Originally posted by John [email protected] 20 2004, 08:50 PM
Yes, we were wrong in supporting Sadam.

I dont see why you all get angry when we fixed our mistake.
We're angry because you 'fixing your mistake' has cost 10,000 lives and counting.
We're angry because it has never been open admitted as a mistake.
We're angry because the new rulers in Iraq won't be any better than Saddam.
We're angry because we were lied to as to the reasons for going to war.

Do you need anything more?

Invader Zim
21st March 2004, 00:04
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:35 PM

because Zimbabwe doesnt want Britains help and the stupid people in this country would never support another war with out a motive

since when did britain ever wanted to help the people?

why did they support sanctions on iraq that killed half a million children? why did they bomb iraq almost daily during those years?

and who said that the people of zimbabwe didnt want britain's help?
i doubt any children would have died had saddam and the rich 10 or so % not lived in Palaces, and said fuck you to the rest.

I note how you carefully ignored that minor detail.

and who said that the people of zimbabwe didnt want britain's help?

I think that it would be in the best interests of the people of Zimbabwe if another state did take out that corrupt bastard, however a well placed individual bullet would do nicely I think, a full scale was would be most counter productive for all involved.

STI
21st March 2004, 00:16
i doubt any children would have died had saddam and the rich 10 or so % not lived in Palaces, and said fuck you to the rest.

I note how you carefully ignored that minor detail.


Regardless of how the Iraqi ruling class lived, it doesn't change the fact that so many people wouldn't have died had the sanctions not been imposed.

lucid
21st March 2004, 00:35
Originally posted by socialist_tiger+Mar 21 2004, 12:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (socialist_tiger @ Mar 21 2004, 12:48 AM)
John [email protected] 20 2004, 08:50 PM
Yes, we were wrong in supporting Sadam.

I dont see why you all get angry when we fixed our mistake.
We&#39;re angry because you &#39;fixing your mistake&#39; has cost 10,000 lives and counting.
We&#39;re angry because it has never been open admitted as a mistake.
We&#39;re angry because the new rulers in Iraq won&#39;t be any better than Saddam.
We&#39;re angry because we were lied to as to the reasons for going to war.

Do you need anything more? [/b]
Get over it because Saddam envaded Kuwait.
Get over it because the UN led coalition liberated Kuwait.
Get over it because Saddam agreed to certain rules in order to save his ass.
Get over it because Saddam made a laughing stock out of the UN for 10+ years.
Get over it because Saddam created the WMD suspicions by not allowing weapons inspectors to do their job.
The US had the balls to do something about it while you europussies sat back and whined like french whores. GET OVER IT.

Invader Zim
21st March 2004, 01:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 01:16 AM

i doubt any children would have died had saddam and the rich 10 or so % not lived in Palaces, and said fuck you to the rest.

I note how you carefully ignored that minor detail.


Regardless of how the Iraqi ruling class lived, it doesn&#39;t change the fact that so many people wouldn&#39;t have died had the sanctions not been imposed.
I was actually trying to make the point that with a little organisation of resources the deaths would have been avoided.

But I see that you are going to the underlying reason for why allocation of resources was needed.

Dune Dx
21st March 2004, 07:23
"The US had the balls to do something about it while you europussies sat back and whined like french whores. GET OVER IT."

Wahhhhhh dont think that the US is the savior of the world there are countries in europe who fought Sadam

But the french r forg eating idiots who destroyed the democratic process

We shouldnt have veto,s they where brought in by russia who used them to veto everything the west tried to do

Intifada
21st March 2004, 09:38
i doubt any children would have died had saddam and the rich 10 or so % not lived in Palaces, and said fuck you to the rest.

you have also forgotten to account for the bombing of iraq during the sanctions. you also forgot that britain and america were stopping humanitarian aid from getting into iraq before the war. this humanitarian aid consisted of life saving drugs and vaccines. stop blaming saddam for everything that happened. the west is very much responsible for the deaths of millions of iraqis and iranians bcause of their interest in iraqi oil.

Don't Change Your Name
21st March 2004, 18:23
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 01:35 AM
Get over it because Saddam envaded Kuwait.
And yanquiland invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Panama, Cuba and the Moon and many other places


Get over it because the UN led coalition liberated Kuwait.

Freedom is slavery in this case.


Get over it because Saddam created the WMD suspicions by not allowing weapons inspectors to do their job.

In fact there were many inspections in Iraq afaik, and why did inspecting Iraq became soooo important before he created this "suspicions"? And why wasn&#39;t any WMD found yet if they were sooooo exposed? Excepting the U&#036;-dropped depleted uranium.


The US had the balls to do something about it while you europussies sat back and whined like french whores. GET OVER IT.

No, the U&#036; had the BOMBS to do something (invading their ex-ally). I don&#39;t get why your hatred against the french people. Considering your intolerant, patriotic, imperialist and racist attitude I&#39;m sure this 2 guys would have loved to meet you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/c/c4/Hitlermusso.jpg

STI
21st March 2004, 22:05
Get over it because Saddam envaded Kuwait.
Get over it because the UN led coalition liberated Kuwait.
Get over it because Saddam agreed to certain rules in order to save his ass.
Get over it because Saddam made a laughing stock out of the UN for 10+ years.
Get over it because Saddam created the WMD suspicions by not allowing weapons inspectors to do their job.
The US had the balls to do something about it while you europussies sat back and whined like french whores. GET OVER IT.

Get under it because the US reinstated a dictator in Kuwait. There was no liberation.
Get under it because George Bush made a laughing stock of the UN when he went to war.
Get under it because George Bush makes a laughing stock of the US almost every time he opens his mouth (ie. "A vast majority of America&#39;s imports come from other countries").
Get under it because no WMD have yet to be found.
Get under it because ad hominem arguments just make you look stupid.

The Bush administration didn&#39;t gather evidence and reach a conclusion like they should have, they jumped to a conclusion and scrambled to gather evidence supporting it (unsuccessfully, mind you).

Dune Dx
22nd March 2004, 15:26
We should abollish Vetos and give the UN some kind of Power against countries that go against the will of the UN

Invader Zim
22nd March 2004, 18:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 10:38 AM

i doubt any children would have died had saddam and the rich 10 or so % not lived in Palaces, and said fuck you to the rest.

you have also forgotten to account for the bombing of iraq during the sanctions. you also forgot that britain and america were stopping humanitarian aid from getting into iraq before the war. this humanitarian aid consisted of life saving drugs and vaccines. stop blaming saddam for everything that happened. the west is very much responsible for the deaths of millions of iraqis and iranians bcause of their interest in iraqi oil.
As if the figures weren&#39;t high enough for the deaths, you have to make crap up and at least double the actual figure. By using the term "millions", you are implying that there were several million. No there weren&#39;t. The highest figure I have ever seen sighted is 1,500,000, im sure that you would like to see an extra 500,000 deaths added to that, just to make your rather inadiquate and flawed point, but you cant, get over it.

the west is very much responsible for the deaths of millions of iraqis and iranians bcause of their interest in iraqi oil.

I assume that you are refering to the Iran-Iraq war, which was not caused by the west.

"Conflicts contributing to the outbreak of hostilities ranged from centuries-old Sunni-versus-Shia and Arab-versus-Persian religious and ethnic disputes, to a personal animosity between Saddam Hussein and Ayatollah Khomeini. Above all, Iraq launched the war in an effort to consolidate its rising power in the Arab world and to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state."

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm

It was also not the USA which launched chemical weapons at Iran (which accounted for a vast portion of the total kill count), that was all your buddie Saddam Hussein.

stop blaming saddam for everything that happened.

I dont blame him for everything, just what is his fault.



Well that&#39;s that, go and read some book or whatever before spouting a heap of crap next time.

Intifada
22nd March 2004, 19:01
you have to make crap up and at least double the actual figure.

when did i "double the figures"? i stated that america and britain were stopping vital medicines from reaching iraqis who needed them.


I assume that you are refering to the Iran-Iraq war, which was not caused by the west.


actually quite a lot of deaths were caused by the west&#39;s fear of iran defeating iraq. when it looked like saddam was going to be defeated what did reagan do? he covertly began to supply him with satellite intelligence and weapons, including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used, in bush&#39;s memorable words, "to gas his own people." the iraq-iran war ended with a ghastly loss of life on both sides.


It was also not the USA which launched chemical weapons at Iran

heres a task for you, read my post again and tell me when i said that the u&#036; launched chemical weapons at iran?


that was all your buddie Saddam Hussein.


no he wasnt MY "buddie". as far as i know he was the "buddie" of the west.

oh, and could you please read this (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B93DF501-832A-423B-9E33-5F4325676A46.htm) and try and argue the case for america&#39;s use of DU.

Invader Zim
22nd March 2004, 20:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 08:01 PM

you have to make crap up and at least double the actual figure.

when did i "double the figures"? i stated that america and britain were stopping vital medicines from reaching iraqis who needed them.


I assume that you are refering to the Iran-Iraq war, which was not caused by the west.


actually quite a lot of deaths were caused by the west&#39;s fear of iran defeating iraq. when it looked like saddam was going to be defeated what did reagan do? he covertly began to supply him with satellite intelligence and weapons, including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used, in bush&#39;s memorable words, "to gas his own people." the iraq-iran war ended with a ghastly loss of life on both sides.


It was also not the USA which launched chemical weapons at Iran

heres a task for you, read my post again and tell me when i said that the u&#036; launched chemical weapons at iran?


that was all your buddie Saddam Hussein.


no he wasnt MY "buddie". as far as i know he was the "buddie" of the west.

oh, and could you please read this (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B93DF501-832A-423B-9E33-5F4325676A46.htm) and try and argue the case for america&#39;s use of DU.
when did i "double the figures"? i stated that america and britain were stopping vital medicines from reaching iraqis who needed them.

By using the term "millions", you are implying that there were several million.

Millions being a plural, million being a singular.

actually quite a lot of deaths were caused by the west&#39;s fear of iran defeating iraq.


"Millions"? No, you see over 300,000 of the deaths were in the first few years before any superpower got involved.

including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used

And sinse when has selling WMD been the same as using them? Saddam also had a large weapons program before the Iran-Iraq war.

heres a task for you, read my post again and tell me when i said that the u&#036; launched chemical weapons at iran?

Heres a task you, find where I said you did.

oh, and could you please read this and try and argue the case for america&#39;s use of DU.

And what does that have to do with the Iran-Iraq war? Ohh I know your trying to score cheap emotional points. Sorry, but that tricks been tried. But if you want to post links with nasty pictures with absolutly no relevance to the debate at hand, for the sole reason, to create an emotional responce, fine I can play that came as well: -

http://www.che-lives.net/users/ak47/other/Kurds.JPG

http://www.che-lives.net/users/ak47/other/saddam_crimes.JPG

http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/03/03/11/nhr0311m.html

Ohh and next time try and steer clear of aljazeera, you know objectivity is considered a vertue.

as far as i know he was the "buddie" of the west.

Was being the definitive word.

STI
22nd March 2004, 21:19
including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used


Anybody with access to a high school gym can make &#39;chemical agents&#39; and &#39;weapons of mass destruction&#39;. It&#39;s no reason to attack somebody.

lucid
22nd March 2004, 21:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 10:19 PM

including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used


Anybody with access to a high school gym can make &#39;chemical agents&#39; and &#39;weapons of mass destruction&#39;. It&#39;s no reason to attack somebody.
When that someone uses them and then starts invading other countries it is. Stupid.

STI
22nd March 2004, 21:52
Originally posted by lucid+Mar 22 2004, 10:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lucid @ Mar 22 2004, 10:35 PM)
[email protected] 22 2004, 10:19 PM

including precursors for development of biological weapons and the basic ingredients for the chemical agents he used


Anybody with access to a high school gym can make &#39;chemical agents&#39; and &#39;weapons of mass destruction&#39;. It&#39;s no reason to attack somebody.
When that someone uses them and then starts invading other countries it is. Stupid. [/b]
*wipes sweat off brow. Wow, good thing Saddam hadn&#39;t used them or attacked anybody since the west stopped being his friend, otherwise, you might have a decent argument. Don&#39;t insult people like that. It only makes you look stupid and angry.

lucid
22nd March 2004, 23:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 10:52 PM
*wipes sweat off brow. Wow, good thing Saddam hadn&#39;t used them or attacked anybody since the west stopped being his friend, otherwise, you might have a decent argument. Don&#39;t insult people like that. It only makes you look stupid and angry.
What about Kuwait fumduck. Wait, lemme guess, Iraq invading Kuwait was just propaganda developed by the U&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;A. Maybe it was the same director that did the fake moon landings. Who the fuck cares when he used them. He has used them in the past and invaded a neighboring coutry.

I am really not concerned who thinks I am stupid on this board. And I am not angry =] I am actually a pretty easy going guy. I am just pro-capitalism and anti-social/comun/ism. I fuckin hate comunism with a passion. It is a completely unreachable Ideal that has killed millions of people when groups have attempted to implement it. It will not work ever. You need to park your flower covered VW Bug, put your damn pipe down, and get a fucking job.

redstar2000
23rd March 2004, 00:29
You people are so blind with hatred that you will do anything to find fault with the USA.

And you, sir, are so blinded with craven servility to empire that there is no atrocity that you will not excuse...or even praise.


Those euro scumbags are just pissed off that we accomplished more in 300 years than they did in 2000.

You mean your empire is bigger than theirs.


The US had the balls to do something about it while you europussies sat back and whined like French whores. GET OVER IT.

Ooooooh&#33; You&#39;re so masculine when you talk "politics".


I fuckin hate communism with a passion. It is a completely unreachable Ideal that has killed millions of people when groups have attempted to implement it. It will not work ever. You need to park your flower covered VW Bug, put your damn pipe down, and get a fucking job.

Aawww. Did the commies take away your rubber ducky?

Mean old commies&#33; Shame on them&#33;

Surely in the age of Global American Empire, the great leaders that you adore so passionately will steal you a new rubber ducky.

They won&#39;t let you down.

They promise&#33;

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

STI
23rd March 2004, 05:58
What about Kuwait fumduck. Wait, lemme guess, Iraq invading Kuwait was just propaganda developed by the U&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;A. Maybe it was the same director that did the fake moon landings. Who the fuck cares when he used them. He has used them in the past and invaded a neighboring coutry.


Again, useless insults don&#39;t help you at all. They sure don&#39;t phase me, so you&#39;re really just wasting your time typing. I&#39;m comfortable enough with myself and my intellegence to not really care what names you call me. This isn&#39;t the 7th grade, after all (ah, the 7th grade.... what a fucky year that was.... memories...). Iraq invaded Kuwait with the blessing and permission of the US. It happened, of course. It matters when he used them. We didn&#39;t disown him because he used the WMD, we disowned him because he stepped on the wrong toes.

The US government has used WMD on neighbouring countries (and even their own soldiers). Should I take pre- emptive action and dethrone the American ruling class in the name of national security?

...hey.... I think I&#39;m on to something.... Redstar, fetch me my air- raid kit. Mr. ST is going to Washington. ;)

Intifada
23rd March 2004, 06:30
Millions being a plural, million being a singular.

i didnt use the term millions in reference to just the sanctions.


No, you see over 300,000 of the deaths were in the first few years before any superpower got involved.


there were at least 1 million killed during the whole iran-iraq war.


Heres a task you, find where I said you did.

It was also not the USA which launched chemical weapons at Iran (which accounted for a vast portion of the total kill count), that was all your buddie Saddam Hussein.

you were quite clearly implying that i said the usa was launching the chemical weapons.


And what does that have to do with the Iran-Iraq war?

uh...nothing. its to do with the fact that because of america more innocent iraqis will die.


But if you want to post links with nasty pictures with absolutly no relevance to the debate at hand, for the sole reason, to create an emotional responce, fine I can play that came as well: -


actually, i think you will find that i never posted any nasty pictures. i gave you a link to an article about the effects of DU. obviously you cannot defend the fact that because of america more iraqis will die and suffer.


Anybody with access to a high school gym can make &#39;chemical agents&#39; and &#39;weapons of mass destruction&#39;. It&#39;s no reason to attack somebody.

i never said it was ST.

Invader Zim
23rd March 2004, 07:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 07:30 AM

Millions being a plural, million being a singular.

i didnt use the term millions in reference to just the sanctions.


No, you see over 300,000 of the deaths were in the first few years before any superpower got involved.


there were at least 1 million killed during the whole iran-iraq war.


Heres a task you, find where I said you did.

It was also not the USA which launched chemical weapons at Iran (which accounted for a vast portion of the total kill count), that was all your buddie Saddam Hussein.

you were quite clearly implying that i said the usa was launching the chemical weapons.


And what does that have to do with the Iran-Iraq war?

uh...nothing. its to do with the fact that because of america more innocent iraqis will die.


But if you want to post links with nasty pictures with absolutly no relevance to the debate at hand, for the sole reason, to create an emotional responce, fine I can play that came as well: -


actually, i think you will find that i never posted any nasty pictures. i gave you a link to an article about the effects of DU. obviously you cannot defend the fact that because of america more iraqis will die and suffer.


Anybody with access to a high school gym can make &#39;chemical agents&#39; and &#39;weapons of mass destruction&#39;. It&#39;s no reason to attack somebody.

i never said it was ST.
i didnt use the term millions in reference to just the sanctions.

No you used it in reference to the Iran-Iraq war, either way your wrong.


there were at least 1 million killed during the whole iran-iraq war.

Yes but that means that America had absolutely no influence on the deaths of about a third of that number. Counting is also a virtue.


you were quite clearly implying that i said the usa was launching the chemical weapons.

The conclusion is an obvious one to make, you see I used "logic", something you should practice. You referred to he Iran-Iraq war as a reference to "millions" being killed, a vast proportion were killed by Chemical-Biological weapons. So by suggesting that the US was responsible for a million+ deaths in that was is to suggest that they fired those weapons.

uh...nothing. its to do with the fact that because of america more innocent iraqis will die.

There we go then, your posting utter crap with no reference to the discussion to score cheep points. he obvious conclusion is that you haven&#39;t got any real points left, just anti-us rhetoric.

actually, i think you will find that i never posted any nasty pictures.

You find where I said you did post nasty pic, I said you posted a LINK with nasty pics.

. obviously you cannot defend the fact that because of america more iraqis will die and suffer.


Ohh I can grasp that just fine, it just has nothing to do with this debate.


Now excuse me because I am not going to debate this subject with a person, rather than addressing the subject at hand, resorts to dubious methods of scoring emotonal points, and effectivly evading the points raised.

Guest1
23rd March 2004, 08:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 04:59 PM
Ohh and next time try and steer clear of aljazeera, you know objectivity is considered a vertue.
Oh yeah, cause of course the only Arab news agency that consistently defies Arab governments must be discounted from the debate.

Where are you suppsoed to get news about the Arab world except fromt he Arab world? And where are you supposed to get Arab news except the only Arab media outlet that is not afraid of any government?

Invader Zim
23rd March 2004, 13:02
Originally posted by Che y Marijuana+Mar 23 2004, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Che y Marijuana @ Mar 23 2004, 09:55 AM)
[email protected] 22 2004, 04:59 PM
Ohh and next time try and steer clear of aljazeera, you know objectivity is considered a vertue.
Oh yeah, cause of course the only Arab news agency that consistently defies Arab governments must be discounted from the debate.

Where are you suppsoed to get news about the Arab world except fromt he Arab world? And where are you supposed to get Arab news except the only Arab media outlet that is not afraid of any government? [/b]
Absolutly aljazeera, is rubbish if you want to see any objectivity. Its worse than the bloody daily mail and Fox.

An example of aljazeera objectivity: -

Dispossessed, deprived of their birthright and denied basic human rights and freedoms, millions of Palestinians daily endure a rare fate. Just the simple act of surviving through the day under occupation requires enormous resilience in the face of a superior war machine, supported by the world&#39;s single superpower. Yet Palestinians have never lost hope that one day they will be able to live in freedom, peace and prosperity in their own independent homeland.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6...70603635511.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6EB4AA-E7C3-49AC-9F3E-A70603635511.htm)

Wheter you agree with them or not, that is not an objective statement, and from a realistic point of view in a debate it can not be used as an objective piece of research.

Here&#39;s another good one: -

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7B9...0009A9E4847.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7B94BA1A-BCB5-4A0F-9624-90009A9E4847.htm)

Does it mention Arab attrocities... good one. "Objective" is not in the aljazeera dictionary.

The very fact that it is an Arab news source for a largley Arab audiance is automatically going to make it lean towards a bias, just in the same way Fox does. The very fact that you are trying to deny it shows you have a poor understanding of the nature of bias and the media.

lucid
23rd March 2004, 13:36
Can someone give me a link to proof that the US supported Saddams invasion of Kuwait. Please dont include links with the work revolution, red, or muslim in the link.

Invader Zim
23rd March 2004, 13:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 06:58 AM

What about Kuwait fumduck. Wait, lemme guess, Iraq invading Kuwait was just propaganda developed by the U&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;A. Maybe it was the same director that did the fake moon landings. Who the fuck cares when he used them. He has used them in the past and invaded a neighboring coutry.


Again, useless insults don&#39;t help you at all. They sure don&#39;t phase me, so you&#39;re really just wasting your time typing. I&#39;m comfortable enough with myself and my intellegence to not really care what names you call me. This isn&#39;t the 7th grade, after all (ah, the 7th grade.... what a fucky year that was.... memories...). Iraq invaded Kuwait with the blessing and permission of the US. It happened, of course. It matters when he used them. We didn&#39;t disown him because he used the WMD, we disowned him because he stepped on the wrong toes.

The US government has used WMD on neighbouring countries (and even their own soldiers). Should I take pre- emptive action and dethrone the American ruling class in the name of national security?

...hey.... I think I&#39;m on to something.... Redstar, fetch me my air- raid kit. Mr. ST is going to Washington. ;)
Actually the US invaded Iraq because saddam invaded Kuwait, the US supported Iraq when they invaded Iran.

lucid
23rd March 2004, 14:17
Just to get a little more precise we can say that is was the UN that invaded Iraq and the US joined the coalition.

Does anyone remember what kind of government Iran was when Iraq invaded them? It&#39;s not hard to understand why we would temporarily support Iraq when they where at war with Iran. Iran was financing terrorists groups that where blowing up planes and even had something to do with an attack on the Israeli Olympics team which killed a bunch of Israeli athletes. But, none of that is important because it doesn&#39;t have anything to do with bashing the US.

STI
23rd March 2004, 20:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 03:17 PM
Just to get a little more precise we can say that is was the UN that invaded Iraq and the US joined the coalition.

Does anyone remember what kind of government Iran was when Iraq invaded them? It&#39;s not hard to understand why we would temporarily support Iraq when they where at war with Iran. Iran was financing terrorists groups that where blowing up planes and even had something to do with an attack on the Israeli Olympics team which killed a bunch of Israeli athletes. But, none of that is important because it doesn&#39;t have anything to do with bashing the US.
We supported both sides by selling them weapons.


Can someone give me a link to proof that the US supported Saddams invasion of Kuwait. Please dont include links with the work revolution, red, or muslim in the link.

From Noam Chomsky&#39;s "What Uncle Sam Really Wants":


The Gulf War illustrated the same guiding principles, as we see clearly if we lift the veil of propaganda.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990, the UN Security Council immediately condemned Iraq and imposed severe sanctions on it. Why was the UN response so prompt and so unprecedently firm? The US government-media alliance had a standard answer.

First, it told us that Iraq&#39;s aggression was a unique crime, and thus merited a uniquely harsh reaction. "America stands where it always has -- against aggression, against those who would use force to replace the rule of law" -- so we were informed by President Bush, the invader of Panama and the only head of state condemned by the World Court for the "unlawful use of force" (in the Court&#39;s condemnation of the US attack against Nicaragua). The media and the educated classes dutifully repeated the lines spelled out for them by their Leader, collapsing in awe at the magnificence of his high principles.

Second, these same authorities proclaimed in a litany that the UN was now at last functioning as it was designed to do. They claimed that this was impossible before the end of the Cold War, when the UN was rendered ineffective by Soviet disruption and the shrill anti-Western rhetoric of the Third World.

Neither of these claims can withstand even a moment&#39;s scrutiny. The US wasn&#39;t upholding any high principle in the Gulf, nor was any other state. The reason for the unprecedented response to Saddam Hussein wasn&#39;t his brutal aggression -- it was because he stepped on the wrong toes.

Saddam Hussein is a murderous gangster -- exactly as he was before the Gulf War, when he was our friend and favored trading partner. His invasion of Kuwait was certainly an atrocity, but well within the range of many similar crimes conducted by the US and its allies, and nowhere near as terrible as some. For example, Indonesia&#39;s invasion and annexation of East Timor reached near-genocidal proportions, thanks to the decisive support of the US and its allies. Perhaps one-fourth of the 700,000 population were killed, a slaughter exceeding that of Pol Pot, relative to the population, in the same years.

Our ambassador to the UN at the time (and now Senator from New York), Daniel Moynihan, explained his achievement at the UN concerning East Timor: "The United States wished things to turn out as they did, and worked to bring this about. The Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success."

The Australian Foreign Minister justified his country&#39;s acquiescence to the invasion and annexation of East Timor (and Australia&#39;s participation with Indonesia in robbing Timor&#39;s rich oil reserves) by saying simply that "the world is a pretty unfair place, littered with examples of acquisition by force." When Iraq invaded Kuwait, however, his government issued a ringing declaration that "big countries cannot invade small neighbors and get away with it." No heights of cynicism trouble the equanimity of Western moralists.

As for the UN finally functioning as it was designed to, the facts are clear -- but absolutely barred by the guardians of political correctness who control the means of expression with an iron hand. For many years, the UN has been blocked by the great powers, primarily the United States -- not the Soviet Union or the Third World. Since 1970, the United States has vetoed far more Security Council resolutions than any other country (Britain is second, France a distant third and the Soviet Union fourth).

Our record in the General Assembly is similar. And the "shrill, anti-Western rhetoric" of the Third World commonly turns out to be a call to observe international law, a pitifully weak barrier against the depredations of the powerful.

The UN was able to respond to Iraq&#39;s aggression because -- for once -- the United States allowed it to. The unprecedented severity of the UN sanctions was the result of intense US pressure and threats. The sanctions had an unusually good chance of working, both because of their harshness and because the usual sanctions-busters -- the United States, Britain and France -- would have abided by them for a change.

But even after allowing sanctions, the US immediately moved to close off the diplomatic option by dispatching a huge military force to the Gulf, joined by Britain and backed by the family dictatorships that rule the Gulf&#39;s oil states, with only nominal participation by others.

A smaller, deterrent force could have been kept in place long enough for the sanctions to have had a significant effect; an army of half a million couldn&#39;t. The purpose of the quick military build-up was to ward off the danger that Iraq might be forced out of Kuwait by peaceful means.

Why was a diplomatic resolution so unattractive? Within a few weeks after the invasion of Kuwait on August 2, the basic outlines for a possible political settlement were becoming clear. Security Council resolution 660, calling for Iraq&#39;s withdrawal from Kuwait, also called for simultaneous negotiations of border issues. By mid-August, the National Security Council considered an Iraqi proposal to withdraw from Kuwait in that context.

There appear to have been two issues: first, Iraqi access to the Gulf, which would have entailed a lease or other control over two uninhabited mudflats assigned to Kuwait by Britain in its imperial settlement (which had left Iraq virtually landlocked); second, resolution of a dispute over an oil field that extended two miles into Kuwait over an unsettled border.

The US flatly rejected the proposal, or any negotiations. On August 22, without revealing these facts about the Iraqi initiative (which it apparently knew), the New York Times reported that the Bush Administration was determined to block the "diplomatic track" for fear that it might "defuse the crisis" in very much this manner. (The basic facts were published a week later by the Long Island daily Newsday, but the media largely kept their silence.)

The last known offer before the bombing, released by US officials on January 2, 1991, called for total Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait. There were no qualifications about borders, but the offer was made in the context of unspecified agreements on other "linked" issues: weapons of mass destruction in the region and the Israel-Arab conflict.

The latter issues include Israel&#39;s illegal occupation of southern Lebanon, in violation of Security Council resolution 425 of March 1978, which called for its immediate and unconditional withdrawal from the territory it had invaded. The US response was that there would be no diplomacy. The media suppressed the facts, Newsday aside, while lauding Bush&#39;s high principles.

The US refused to consider the "linked" issues because it was opposed to diplomacy on all the "linked" issues. This had been made clear months before Iraq&#39;s invasion of Kuwait, when the US had rejected Iraq&#39;s offer of negotiations over weapons of mass destruction. In the offer, Iraq proposed to destroy all such chemical and biological weapons, if other countries in the region also destroyed their weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam Hussein was then Bush&#39;s friend and ally, so he received a response, which was instructive. Washington said it welcomed Iraq&#39;s proposal to destroy its own weapons, but didn&#39;t want this linked to "other issues or weapons systems."

There was no mention of the "other weapons systems," and there&#39;s a reason for that. Israel not only may have chemical and biological weapons -- it&#39;s also the only country in the Mideast with nuclear weapons (probably about 200 of them). But "Israeli nuclear weapons" is a phrase that can&#39;t be written or uttered by any official US government source. That phrase would raise the question of why all aid to Israel is not illegal, since foreign aid legislation from 1977 bars funds to any country that secretly develops nuclear weapons.

Independent of Iraq&#39;s invasion, the US had also always blocked any "peace process" in the Middle East that included an international conference and recognition of a Palestinian right of self-determination. For 20 years, the US has been virtually alone in this stance. UN votes indicate the regular annual pattern; once again in December 1990, right in the midst of the Gulf crisis, the call for an international conference was voted 144-2 (US and Israel). This had nothing to do with Iraq and Kuwait.

The US also adamantly refused to allow a reversal of Iraq&#39;s aggression by the peaceful means prescribed by international law. Instead it preferred to avoid diplomacy and to restrict the conflict to the arena of violence, in which a superpower facing no deterrent is bound to prevail over a Third World adversary.

As already discussed, the US regularly carries out or supports aggression, even in cases far more criminal than Iraq&#39;s invasion of Kuwait. Only the most dedicated commissar can fail to understand these facts, or the fact that in the rare case when the US happens to oppose some illegal act by a client or ally, it&#39;s quite happy with "linkage."

Take the South African occupation of Namibia, declared illegal by the World Court and the UN in the l960s. The US pursued "quiet diplomacy" and "constructive engagement" for years, brokering a settlement that gave South Africa ample reward (including Namibia&#39;s major port) for its aggression and atrocities, with "linkage" extending to the Caribbean and welcome benefits for international business interests.

The Cuban forces that had defended Namibia&#39;s neighbor Angola from South African attack were withdrawn. Much as in Nicaragua after the 1987 "peace accords," the US continued to support the terrorist army backed by the US and its allies (South Africa and Zaire) and is preparing the ground for a 1992 Nicaragua-style "democratic election," where people will go to the polls under threat of economic strangulation and terrorist attack if they vote the wrong way.

Meanwhile, South Africa was looting and destroying Namibia, and using it as a base for violence against its neighbors. In the Reagan-Bush years (l980-1988) alone, South African violence led to about &#036;60 billion in damage and over a million and a half people killed in the neighboring countries (excluding Namibia and South Africa). But the commissar class was unable to see these facts, and hailed George Bush&#39;s amazing display of principle as he opposed "linkage" -- when someone steps on our toes.

More generally, opposing "linkage" amounts to little more than rejecting diplomacy, which always involves broader issues. In the case of Kuwait, the US position was particularly flimsy. After Saddam Hussein stepped out of line, the Bush administration insisted that Iraq&#39;s capacity for aggression be eliminated (a correct position, in contrast to its earlier support for Saddam&#39;s aggression and atrocities) and called for a regional settlement guaranteeing security.

Well, that&#39;s linkage. The simple fact is that the US feared that diplomacy might "defuse the crisis," and therefore blocked diplomacy "linkage" at every turn during the build-up to the war.

By refusing diplomacy, the US achieved its major goals in the Gulf. We were concerned that the incomparable energy resources of the Middle East remain under our control, and that the enormous profits they produce help support the economies of the US and its British client.

The US also reinforced its dominant position, and taught the lesson that the world is to be ruled by force. Those goals having been achieved, Washington proceeded to maintain "stability," barring any threat of democratic change in the Gulf tyrannies and lending tacit support to Saddam Hussein as he crushed the popular uprising of the Shi&#39;ites in the South, a few miles from US lines, and then the Kurds in the North.

But the Bush administration has not yet succeeded in achieving what its spokesman at the New York Times, chief diplomatic correspondent Thomas Friedman, calls "the best of all worlds: an iron-fisted Iraqi junta without Saddam Hussein." This, Friedman writes, would be a return to the happy days when Saddam&#39;s "iron fist...held Iraq together, much to the satisfaction of the American allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia," not to speak of the boss in Washington. The current situation in the Gulf reflects the priorities of the superpower that held all the cards, another truism that must remain invisible to the guardians of the faith.

Guest1
23rd March 2004, 21:13
Originally posted by Enigma+Mar 23 2004, 09:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Mar 23 2004, 09:02 AM)
Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 23 2004, 09:55 AM

[email protected] 22 2004, 04:59 PM
Ohh and next time try and steer clear of aljazeera, you know objectivity is considered a vertue.
Oh yeah, cause of course the only Arab news agency that consistently defies Arab governments must be discounted from the debate.

Where are you suppsoed to get news about the Arab world except fromt he Arab world? And where are you supposed to get Arab news except the only Arab media outlet that is not afraid of any government?
Absolutly aljazeera, is rubbish if you want to see any objectivity. Its worse than the bloody daily mail and Fox.

An example of aljazeera objectivity: -

Dispossessed, deprived of their birthright and denied basic human rights and freedoms, millions of Palestinians daily endure a rare fate. Just the simple act of surviving through the day under occupation requires enormous resilience in the face of a superior war machine, supported by the world&#39;s single superpower. Yet Palestinians have never lost hope that one day they will be able to live in freedom, peace and prosperity in their own independent homeland.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6...70603635511.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6EB4AA-E7C3-49AC-9F3E-A70603635511.htm)

Wheter you agree with them or not, that is not an objective statement, and from a realistic point of view in a debate it can not be used as an objective piece of research.

Here&#39;s another good one: -

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7B9...0009A9E4847.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7B94BA1A-BCB5-4A0F-9624-90009A9E4847.htm)

Does it mention Arab attrocities... good one. "Objective" is not in the aljazeera dictionary.

The very fact that it is an Arab news source for a largley Arab audiance is automatically going to make it lean towards a bias, just in the same way Fox does. The very fact that you are trying to deny it shows you have a poor understanding of the nature of bias and the media. [/b]
No, I&#39;m afraid you don&#39;t understand the concept of bias and objectivity. The media sources here are oriented towards westerners, and thus have their own bias. No matter where you go, there will be some bias. When it comes to dealing with the Middle East, the best place to get your news is from the Middle East. But you can&#39;t go to any of the trash brown-nosers, state television or even Al-Hurra... wait, that is state television.

Anyways, your problem is not with bias, it&#39;s with the idea that they would orient themselves towards an Arab audience. They have to do that. Even western media, no matter how "unbiased", orients itself towards western audiences.