Drugs and Society

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 15 2004, 07:45 PM
Ah life...Michael Foucault wanted to be a goldfish when he was young...

I'd say fuck all of those jobs, they sound intensly boring, and start taking drugs.
If ambition were money then you would be broke. Lets not get all upset just because Y2A wants to make something of himself rather then abusing drugs and wallowing in self-pity.

[Xvall]

I doubt he'll take the comment seriously. It was a joke. (At least on my part)

[Y2A]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 15 2004, 11:45 PM
Ah life...Michael Foucault wanted to be a goldfish when he was young...

I'd say fuck all of those jobs, they sound intensly boring, and start taking drugs.
That's retarded. "Communists" and "Anarchists" are always the ones that talk about bettering the lives of other. Well guess what. Civil engineers build roads, bridges, buildings, etc.... and other engineers contribute big time to society. It's amazing how the people that say they want to "contribute to society" are the ones that attack people who actually do.

BTW, I use drugs. Marijuana=Fun.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:59 PM
BTW, I use drugs. Marijuana=Fun.
Drugs = degeneration of society = inefficiencey and death.
Marijuana = brain damage = no more engineering for you.

[pedro san pedro]

thats utter bollocks mnm -most the engineers i know take copius amounts of illegal substances -and tend to come thru at the top of the class.

agreed y2k -engineers are crucial to society -we would fall apart pretty quick.

have you considered getting a bit of experience by hooking up with aid agencies in the 3rd world? u are going to have to do work experience in the holidays no matter which you branch out into

[synthesis]

Marijuana = brain damage = no more engineering for you.

Abstinence clearly hasn't done you a lot of good.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by pedro san [email protected] 17 2004, 01:22 AM
thats utter bollocks mnm -most the engineers i know take copius amounts of illegal substances -and tend to come thru at the top of the class.

agreed y2k -engineers are crucial to society -we would fall apart pretty quick.

have you considered getting a bit of experience by hooking up with aid agencies in the 3rd world? u are going to have to do work experience in the holidays no matter which you branch out into
Really? Now what engineers do you know? It's odd, most engineers that I know are relatively anti-social people who rarely do much at all outside of study and work.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. If you seriously consider persuing engineering then I would stop using Marijuana at once.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Mar 17 2004, 05:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Mar 17 2004, 05:26 AM)
pedro san [email protected] 17 2004, 01:22 AM
thats utter bollocks mnm -most the engineers i know take copius amounts of illegal substances -and tend to come thru at the top of the class.

agreed y2k -engineers are crucial to society -we would fall apart pretty quick.

have you considered getting a bit of experience by hooking up with aid agencies in the 3rd world? u are going to have to do work experience in the holidays no matter which you branch out into
Really? Now what engineers do you know? It&#39;s odd, most engineers that I know are relatively anti-social people who rarely do much at all outside of study and work.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. If you seriously consider persuing engineering then I would stop using Marijuana at once. [/b]
Actually there are many outstanding members of our society that do drugs. Many historical figures aswell. There is nothing wrong with marijuana MM, I can&#39;t believe you actually believe that crap. And I do not frequently use marijuana either. Just use it in moderation. Drinking is fine aswell.

[pedro san pedro]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr Posted on Mar 17 2004, 04:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE (pedro san pedro @ Mar 17 2004, 01:22 AM)
thats utter bollocks mnm -most the engineers i know take copius amounts of illegal substances -and tend to come thru at the top of the class.

agreed y2k -engineers are crucial to society -we would fall apart pretty quick.

have you considered getting a bit of experience by hooking up with aid agencies in the 3rd world? u are going to have to do work experience in the holidays no matter which you branch out into

Really? Now what engineers do you know? It&#39;s odd, most engineers that I know are relatively anti-social people who rarely do much at all outside of study and work.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. If you seriously consider persuing engineering then I would stop using Marijuana at once.

i know predominately electrical engineers -most of whom smoke dope, many of whom take copiuos amounts of lsd.
also know a water engineer and a couple of environmental and computer engineers that do the same

i dont personally smoke dope, though i dabble in many other things -sounds to me like you dont know sweet mary jane about this issue, sunshine :)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 01:59 AM
That&#39;s retarded. "Communists" and "Anarchists" are always the ones that talk about bettering the lives of other. Well guess what. Civil engineers build roads, bridges, buildings, etc.... and other engineers contribute big time to society. It&#39;s amazing how the people that say they want to "contribute to society" are the ones that attack people who actually do.
Who&#39;s society are you contributing too mate?...I&#39;m sorry to piss on your parade but I dont give a shit what you do with your life. I dont know you, I never will, :) <------ That&#39;s me not caring...


Marijuana=Fun.

Boring....

[pedro san pedro]

hey tat, dont forget to care about the people we are liberating ;)

not to say that the cappies are right, but watch out for arrogrance -you will become what you are fighting

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by pedro san [email protected] 17 2004, 11:35 AM
hey tat, dont forget to care about the people we are liberating ;)

not to say that the cappies are right, but watch out for arrogrance -you will become what you are fighting
it was supposed to be not caring in the sense...Do what you wonna do, dont let what i say influence you. Not I hate you, you&#39;re lesser than me not caring.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Y2A+Mar 17 2004, 02:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Mar 17 2004, 02:36 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 05:26 AM

pedro san [email protected] 17 2004, 01:22 AM
thats utter bollocks mnm -most the engineers i know take copius amounts of illegal substances -and tend to come thru at the top of the class.

agreed y2k -engineers are crucial to society -we would fall apart pretty quick.

have you considered getting a bit of experience by hooking up with aid agencies in the 3rd world? u are going to have to do work experience in the holidays no matter which you branch out into
Really? Now what engineers do you know? It&#39;s odd, most engineers that I know are relatively anti-social people who rarely do much at all outside of study and work.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. If you seriously consider persuing engineering then I would stop using Marijuana at once.
Actually there are many outstanding members of our society that do drugs. Many historical figures aswell. There is nothing wrong with marijuana MM, I can&#39;t believe you actually believe that crap. And I do not frequently use marijuana either. Just use it in moderation. Drinking is fine aswell. [/b]
These contibuting members of society that did drugs would have contributed much more had they not. Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Janis Joplin, I am sure you can name more. I am equally against smoking cigarrettes and drinking alcohol as I am against something like heroin. The stuff is addictive, it fucks up your body, and ruins people&#39;s lives. It should have no place within socialist society.

[The Feral Underclass]

William Burroughs took heroin for 50 years and he was fine. Taking drugs is a personal choice. If people take drugs as an escape thing then of course it causes problems. I know people who take drugs, xtc or cocaine recreationally and live perfectly normal functioning lives. They are happy and they enjoy their lives. If you have that then drugs are fine. You are using drugs responsably. It is when people take drugs as some sort of subsititue for reality. That&#39;s when it becomes dangerous.

Banning drugs etc as MM suggests is not going to solve the problem of people wanting this escape. We have to look at why that exists and change that. Then it has no relevance who takes it. Progression, not reaction, that is what communism is. We need to progress past these reactionary ideas of banning this and banning that and find out what is actually going on.

People who take drugs are not all seedy addicts who live in their own shit, and steal things. Some are functioning human beings who have jobs, university degrees, people who are creative and intellectual. I take drugs recreationally and I am doing very well at the moment. There is a reason for that. I think its because some people are educated and supported in their choices. Some people are given opportunities in life. Others are not educated, they are not supported and they have no opporuntities. They are marginalized by society and called "failures." That is the problem, not the drugs.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr do you gets your views from Russia 1905 or am I hallucianating.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 17 2004, 10:46 AM
William Burroughs took heroin for 50 years and he was fine. Taking drugs is a personal choice. If people take drugs as an escape thing then of course it causes problems. I know people who take drugs, xtc or cocaine recreationally and live perfectly normal functioning lives. They are happy and they enjoy their lives. If you have that then drugs are fine. You are using drugs responsably. It is when people take drugs as some sort of subsititue for reality. That&#39;s when it becomes dangerous.

Banning drugs etc as MM suggests is not going to solve the problem of people wanting this escape. We have to look at why that exists and change that. Then it has no relevance who takes it. Progression, not reaction, that is what communism is. We need to progress past these reactionary ideas of banning this and banning that and find out what is actually going on.

People who take drugs are not all seedy addicts who live in their own shit, and steal things. Some are functioning human beings who have jobs, university degrees, people who are creative and intellectual. I take drugs recreationally and I am doing very well at the moment. There is a reason for that. I think its because some people are educated and supported in their choices. Some people are given opportunities in life. Others are not educated, they are not supported and they have no opporuntities. They are marginalized by society and called "failures." That is the problem, not the drugs.
Being a functioning human being is relative TAT. You are definately not one by my standards. Theives and murderers can be happy and enjoy their lives too, but that doesn&#39;t mean that they are doing the best thing for society. There is no such thing as taking drugs responsibly because taking drugs in an inherantly an irresponsible action in itself. Banning drugs alone will not change things for people, but I think it is one of the many steps we must take to better society. Progress is what communism is, and we need to do what is best for the people, even if it means sacraficing a few individual freedoms. If a person is in a university or has a good job or something of that nature, and they still rely on drugs, then there is definately something emotionally/phychologically wrong with that person, and they are most likely using drugs as some form of an escape. I agree that we need to help people who are marginalized by society, and I think banning all drugs, alcohol, and cigarrettes would be a step in the right direction.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 07:46 PM
Being a functioning human being is relative TAT.
Freedom is not relative, it is an objective reality which some people, like you, distort.


You are definately not one by my standards.

And you are a model citizen. Just what the ruling class ordered.


Theives and murderers can be happy and enjoy their lives too, but that doesn&#39;t mean that they are doing the best thing for society.

Dropping a pill on a friday night after spending the week at work or Uni is not the same as stealing someones car or stabbing someone to death.


There is no such thing as taking drugs responsibly because taking drugs in an inherantly an irresponsible action in itself.

Only to loosers like you&#33; For us grown ups who are able to make rational choices for ourselves, there is irresponsble drug use and there is responsable drug use.


Banning drugs alone will not change things for people, but I think it is one of the many steps we must take to better society.

I like your definition of better. Oppression. Nice one. How will taking peoples right to choose make society better?


Progress is what communism is, and we need to do what is best for the people

We being who? You? An 18 year old virgin from some shitty town in Southern America. Give me a break. How would you know what is right for the people? What is right is allowing people to make their own choices. People should not be stopped from taking drugs if they choose to. What should be fought against is the misuse of drugs and that can only come through changing the fabric of society and bringing freedom into the hands of the people. IE a revolution to over throw the ruling class. Once the workers and the people have the opporunity to live in hope, with support from their community, the need to misuse drugs will not exist. What will exist is a sense of empowerment&#33;


Progress is what communism is, and we need to do what is best for the people, even if it means sacraficing a few individual freedoms.

So taking away peoples freedoms is progress in your eyes. What a strange little world you must be living in. You have no idea what is best for the people because I am 100% sure your interaction with the people has been to watch them on the news.

And please stop using the world COMMUNISM, communism is about giving people reeal freedom, freedom being the ability to make choices, without the hindurence of a state or its authority. You are not a communist as has been told to you by hundreds of other members...Stop calling yourself a communist. It makes us real communists look bad.


If a person is in a university or has a good job or something of that nature, and they still rely on drugs, then there is definately something emotionally/phychologically wrong with that person,

Most people have emotional or psychological problems, regardless of whether they have taken drugs. Are you telling me you are a hive of mental fitness. :rolleyes:

You make me laugh. This sociological assertion coming from someone who has never even seen a drug, let alone experienced one. How can you sit there and tell me anything about anything when first of all, you have never met the people i&#39;m talking about, and secondly, never known what a drug does or how it effects you. How do you know that a person who takes drugs and goes to uni etc has defintaly got something emotionally and psychological wrong with them...Please, tell me. Because if you have some extensive research you have carried out I would love to see it...

Have you ever considered the possibility that people might enjoy taking drugs...No of course you haven&#39;t, you&#39;re narrow vision dosnt extend past your hypocritical nose does it..*sigh*


I agree that we need to help people who are marginalized by society, and I think banning all drugs, alcohol, and cigarrettes would be a step in the right direction.

So wait a minute...so, in order to savee the people who take drugs from feeling marginalized you make what they do illegal, arrest them and send them to prison? Nice logic there...You are lost my friend :blink:

I smoke, I drink, and occasionally I take drugs. I have a right to do that. But at the same time I have the opporunities to do what I want. God sake man, i&#39;m going to africa. I did that on my own, and managed to do all those things. My friend is in a loving relationship and studying for a degree at Birmingham University, she is fine, she is happy and she drinks, smokes and takes drugs. You are lost my friend...it must really piss you off to be wrong so many times&#33;

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Being a functioning human being is relative TAT.


Freedom is not relative, it is an objective reality which some people, like you, distort.

The freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. I believe that the collective welfare of society is more important then individual freedom.


You are definately not one by my standards.


And you are a model citizen. Just what the ruling class ordered.

Right, if you aren&#39;t a useless peice of crap then you suck. :rolleyes:


Theives and murderers can be happy and enjoy their lives too, but that doesn&#39;t mean that they are doing the best thing for society.


Dropping a pill on a friday night after spending the week at work or Uni is not the same as stealing someones car or stabbing someone to death.


I&#39;m sorry, I thought you would have the insight to see that both actions are harmful to society...


There is no such thing as taking drugs responsibly because taking drugs in an inherantly an irresponsible action in itself.


Only to loosers like you&#33; For us grown ups who are able to make rational choices for ourselves, there is irresponsble drug use and there is responsable drug use.

Right, if you don&#39;t trash your mind and body and abuse drugs then you are a "looser" and not a grownup. :rolleyes:


Banning drugs alone will not change things for people, but I think it is one of the many steps we must take to better society.


I like your definition of better. Oppression. Nice one. How will taking peoples right to choose make society better?

How can making sure people make the right decisions in life through positive education and laws and thus live to their potential (or at least closer) not be constructive?


Progress is what communism is, and we need to do what is best for the people


We being who? You? An 18 year old virgin from some shitty town in Southern America. Give me a break. How would you know what is right for the people? What is right is allowing people to make their own choices. People should not be stopped from taking drugs if they choose to. What should be fought against is the misuse of drugs and that can only come through changing the fabric of society and bringing freedom into the hands of the people. IE a revolution to over throw the ruling class. Once the workers and the people have the opporunity to live in hope, with support from their community, the need to misuse drugs will not exist. What will exist is a sense of empowerment&#33;

Right, only old, homosexual, promiscuious, drug abusing men who live in hippie communes outside the US can understand what communism is... :rolleyes: People should not be able to even try drugs, weather they choose to or not&#33; Those who are abusing drugs should immediately be sent to mandatory drug rehab. If there is a problem, we need to fix it, not toss up our hands and hope that it will fix itself.


So taking away peoples freedoms is progress in your eyes. What a strange little world you must be living in. You have no idea what is best for the people because I am 100% sure your interaction with the people has been to watch them on the news.

And please stop using the world COMMUNISM, communism is about giving people reeal freedom, freedom being the ability to make choices, without the hindurence of a state or its authority. You are not a communist as has been told to you by hundreds of other members...Stop calling yourself a communist. It makes us real communists look bad.

Why dont you stop using the word COMMUNISM and just stick with that label anarchist that you are so fond of? I do not call tossing up our hands and not fixing any of society&#39;s problems progress. Communism (as far as libertarianism vs. authoritarianism is concerned) is about the will of the individual being submissive to the interests of the group as a whole.


If a person is in a university or has a good job or something of that nature, and they still rely on drugs, then there is definately something emotionally/phychologically wrong with that person,


Most people have emotional or psychological problems, regardless of whether they have taken drugs. Are you telling me you are a hive of mental fitness. :rolleyes:

You make me laugh. This sociological assertion coming from someone who has never even seen a drug, let alone experienced one. How can you sit there and tell me anything about anything when first of all, you have never met the people i&#39;m talking about, and secondly, never known what a drug does or how it effects you. How do you know that a person who takes drugs and goes to uni etc has defintaly got something emotionally and psychological wrong with them...Please, tell me. Because if you have some extensive research you have carried out I would love to see it...

Have you ever considered the possibility that people might enjoy taking drugs...No of course you haven&#39;t, you&#39;re narrow vision dosnt extend past your hypocritical nose does it..*sigh*

You mean to say with all your experience around drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone in the alley robbing people to try to get their next high? Of course you would be for drugs if you used them, and if you felt otherwise you would be a hypocrit. Here is the story of one kid who was addicted to Marijuana. http://teens.drugabuse.gov/stories/story_mj1.asp


So wait a minute...so, in order to savee the people who take drugs from feeling marginalized you make what they do illegal, arrest them and send them to prison? Nice logic there...You are lost my friend :blink:

No, I want to see them in manditory rehabilitation, and I want then to receive counselling and psychological help with their addiction.


I smoke, I drink, and occasionally I take drugs. I have a right to do that. But at the same time I have the opporunities to do what I want. God sake man, i&#39;m going to africa. I did that on my own, and managed to do all those things. My friend is in a loving relationship and studying for a degree at Birmingham University, she is fine, she is happy and she drinks, smokes and takes drugs. You are lost my friend...it must really piss you off to be wrong so many times&#33;

How every great your friend is doing, I assure you should would be doing much better without her drug addiction.

Lol, this thread is supposed to be about engineering, why don&#39;t you make a new thread for this rather then hijacking every single thread in OI for the TAT vs. MM debates?

As far an engineering is concerned, most likely you&#39;ll end up like Mr. Miller when you get out.

[Y2A]

MM you do realize that not everyone that drinks or smokes is a stoner/bum right??? i think you&#39;ve really been brainwashed into fearing drugs. it&#39;s a shame.

Edit: I saw your name on the U-P new members thing. You should start posting there already. I want to see how our posters react to your view of how to create the communist world.

[Individual]

You mean to say with all your experience around drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone

You mean to say with all your experience around people not on drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone?

MM. When you grow up, and actually have exposure from society away from your mother at home, you may realize that many people use drugs and lead successful lives.

The owner/founder of Progressive auto insurance...pothead: Millionaire
The owner/founder of University of Phoenix...pothead: Millionaire
The owner/founder of Enron...not a pothead...facing prison: Priceless

For everything else, there are drugs.

MM. I work for a successful company, making life&#39;s pay. I am a drug user, though now more recreational then from my previous abuse. However I also know many drug users that are successful in life, they are not &#39;losers&#39;, and they are connected with their family. So for you to say that smoking marijuana (it&#39;s only pot, come one here) will make you end up on the street begging for money is absolutely ridiculous. You cannot see the whole world from sitting inside of your house as you do. Wake up, and face reality.

[Som]

Right, if you don&#39;t trash your mind and body and abuse drugs then you are a "looser" and not a grownup.

If someone wants to trash their mind and body, they have every right.

Furthermore, unless you abuse a drug it won&#39;t actually do any trashing, it does go away you know. By the way, pot doesn&#39;t even kill brain cells.


I&#39;m sorry, I thought you would have the insight to see that both actions are harmful to society...

Just how is someone enjoying themselves or finding a way to relax through drug use &#39;harmful to society&#39;?


You mean to say with all your experience around drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone in the alley robbing people to try to get their next high? Of course you would be for drugs if you used them, and if you felt otherwise you would be a hypocrit. Here is the story of one kid who was addicted to Marijuana. http://teens.drugabuse.gov/stories/story_mj1.asp

Thats all fine and dandy, but have you considered the other EIGHTY MILLION PEOPLE in america alone that have smoked pot?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

You mean to say with all your experience around people not on drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone?

There was always a crime and/or a drug abuse involved. (To me, all drug use is drug abuse.)


MM you do realize that not everyone that drinks or smokes is a stoner/bum right??? i think you&#39;ve really been brainwashed into fearing drugs. it&#39;s a shame.

While I do not think that everyone who smokes/drinks are stoner bums, I think that they are abusing their bodies and are doing society a disservice by not living up to their potential. I feel that overall, drugs are a negative influence on society that must be taken out.


I saw your name on the U-P new members thing. You should start posting there already. I want to see how our posters react to your view of how to create the communist world.

I&#39;m just taking a look around, tell your buds to come here. I have a enough disagreements with people on my own half of the political spectrum thank you.


The owner/founder of Progressive auto insurance...pothead: Millionaire
The owner/founder of University of Phoenix...pothead: Millionaire
The owner/founder of Enron...not a pothead...facing prison: Priceless

President of the United States...George W. Bush...pothead: Priceless


MM. I work for a successful company, making life&#39;s pay. I am a drug user, though now more recreational then from my previous abuse. However I also know many drug users that are successful in life, they are not &#39;losers&#39;, and they are connected with their family. So for you to say that smoking marijuana (it&#39;s only pot, come one here) will make you end up on the street begging for money is absolutely ridiculous. You cannot see the whole world from sitting inside of your house as you do. Wake up, and face reality.

Good for you. Why don&#39;t you try doing something healty for recreation rather then drugs? Try sports, reading, or furthering your education instead&#33; Smoking lots of marijuana will lead to an addication, and you will end up on the streets, however, with moderate use, you&#39;ll just fuck yourself up a bit. Wake up, face reality and stop using drugs&#33;


If someone wants to trash their mind and body, they have every right.

Furthermore, unless you abuse a drug it won&#39;t actually do any trashing, it does go away you know. By the way, pot doesn&#39;t even kill brain cells.

I say no one has a right to do anything that is harmful in anyway to society, including self-injury. By the way, smoking anything, even cigarrettes kills brain cells.


Just how is someone enjoying themselves or finding a way to relax through drug use &#39;harmful to society&#39;?

If they were enjoying themselves through sports or art, then all would be fine and dandy, however drug abuse is a mental condition that must be medically treated. Smoking is not only harmful to yourself, but it is a negative influence to people around you. When other people see you smoke, particualarly children, then they too get the message that "smoking is cool".

[Individual]

There was always a crime and/or a drug abuse involved.

So wait, everyone that has been laid off, fired, injured, or gone on a rampage was involved in crime, or drugs? Come on here.

Where&#39;s reality again, I can&#39;t find it. Someone help me here, I&#39;ve lost reality and I&#39;m stuck in my own ignorant mind&#39; ;)


doing society a disservice by not living up to their potential.

What service do I owe my capitalist society? I pay my taxes, what else do I owe them? Wait, and you don&#39;t have republican views, what was that?


I feel that overall, drugs are a negative influence on society that must be taken out.

Right. And capitalism, GWB, exploitation, the media, and Britney Spears are positive influences and should stay apart of society? Gotcha. ;)


President of the United States...George W. Bush...pothead: Priceless

Good one. Except it&#39;s &#39;cokehead&#39;. Besides, that was all truth in my little joke there.


Good for you. Why don&#39;t you try doing something healty for recreation rather then drugs? Try sports, reading, or furthering your education instead&#33; Smoking lots of marijuana will lead to an addication, and you will end up on the streets, however, with moderate use, you&#39;ll just fuck yourself up a bit

Good for you. Why don&#39;t you try doing something healthy for recreation rather than being an ignorant asshole? Try sports, reading, or furthering your education instead&#33; Being an asshole will lead to an &#39;asshole addiction&#39; and you will end up single the rest of your life, however, with moderate &#39;asshole&#39; use, you may be able to get a prostitute.

[Som]

I say no one has a right to do anything that is harmful in anyway to society, including self-injury.

Self-injury as you call it does not effect society, and in many cases, probably more often then not, its a stress reliever.

Stress is not good for society.


If they were enjoying themselves through sports or art, then all would be fine and dandy, however drug abuse is a mental condition that must be medically treated. Smoking is not only harmful to yourself, but it is a negative influence to people around you. When other people see you smoke, particualarly children, then they too get the message that "smoking is cool".


Many sports are dangerous, Last time I played basketball I got hit in the head real hard, I&#39;m sure that knocked away a brain cell or two.

Then again, you&#39;re just blind to reason if you can&#39;t tell the difference between general use and abuse. Along with that set of reason most people across the western world are alcoholic worthless drunks because they have a glass wine with dinner once in awhile.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 01:20 AM
I believe that the collective welfare of society is more important then individual freedom.
Then what is freedom? Who decides what is better for the welfare of society? Changing reality is not about changing leaders, governments and state functions. It is not about changing the name of those who rule and the purpose for those who are ruled, it is about dismanteling capitalism and removing power from the state and handing it over to the oppressed classes for them to decide for themselves.

You are so afraid that these people will not be able to make the right decisions that you refuse to even consider the possibility that they should have control. This fear is just bourgeois standardization. That is what we are supposed to believe. We are supposed to believe that the oppressed can not take control, can not make decisions for themsleves. But actually, it isn&#39;t true. We all have the ability to create, control and make decisions about how we want to live our lives.

The welfare of society is not something that can be enforced. It has to be a decision made on a local level from the bottom up, not from the top down. Freedom is not relative, it is an objective reality. Freedom is not selective. You can not pick and choose what freedom you desire and which freedom you do not. No individual, regardless of what power they proclaim to have has the right to decide what another human being does. And if that brings us into a nihilistic pit of nothingness then that is the case. Human ability and desire can not be fed to people, it has to grow from the heart. Freedom is not a game. To be free you must be able to say "I have a choice&#33;."

The welfare of society is to give freedom to the oppressed not be regulated by leaders who only govern you based on their own subjective view about how society should be. I am not you, you are not me, you can not decide what I want, or what is good for me. You can only be objective about what you want and you can only have a subjective view about how you like society to be. It can not be like that. Subjectivism can not govern our lives. We, as individuals, must govern our own lives. That is freedom&#33;

Taking drugs is an objective choice made by individuals. You can not oppress that by using your subjective rationalization. If I want to take drugs then I can, and you can not stop me. I am making that choice. What is important is that we make sure that people who make those choices do not suffer the consequences. It is so easy to fall into a rut of taking drugs and having nothing else, but, believe it or not, that does not have to be the way. People can take drugs recreationally and be happy and have productive lives and there are reasons for that. We have to make sure that every single human being has the same reasons.


I&#39;m sorry, I thought you would have the insight to see that both actions are harmful to society...

How can you call a group of pacifists, hippies, musicians, university students, writers, painters, philosophers, people who love enjoying themselves, together, in a club or in their houses "harmful to society."


How can making sure people make the right decisions in life through positive education and laws and thus live to their potential (or at least closer) not be constructive?

If I make a choice then I am making a choice. It is neither right nor wrong, it is simply my choice. If you disagree then that is your right. But you can not enforce your opinion, which is subjective to you on me for making a personal choice.

People who are educated and are empowered are able to make rational decisions. Give the oppressed the power to control their own lives and their communities and work to better the society they live in and provide for all, the attitudes and the will that you are so afraid of now will be completely different. You have to get past this the bourgeois laws of social and psyhgological science and look at it in a different perspective otherwise you are no good to anyone.


Right, only old, homosexual, promiscuious, drug abusing men who live in hippie communes outside the US can understand what communism is

Did I say this? This coming from the poor wounded little soldier who took every opportunity to tell everyone how I had distorted what he had said.


People should not be able to even try drugs, weather they choose to or not&#33;

In your opinion. Not in mine. You simply can not force people to accept what you want them to accept. This is why people call you a fascist.


Those who are abusing drugs should immediately be sent to mandatory drug rehab.

But what happens to the people who enjoy taking drugs. What about the people who are able to function in society. You&#39;re going to lock all those people, who are perfectly fine, into rehab centres, just because you dont like drugs?


If there is a problem, we need to fix it, not toss up our hands and hope that it will fix itself.

The only problem I see that needs fixing is capitalism and the state. Once we have got rid of these things there will be no problems.


Why dont you stop using the word COMMUNISM and just stick with that label anarchist that you are so fond of?

:blink: Are you just crazy. Is that what is? You&#39;re just a fruit loop aren&#39;t you. There can&#39;t be any other explination for it. How many times have people tried to explain to you what communism is. I think it&#39;s really arrogant that you refuse to believe people. You are completely rejecting Marxism, Leninsm, Trotskyism and reinventing what these people considered communism to be, just because it dosnt fit into what you want to believe...Maddness&#33;

Anarchism, statless, classless society - Communism, statless, classless society.


Communism (as far as libertarianism vs. authoritarianism is concerned) is about the will of the individual being submissive to the interests of the group as a whole.

What?


You mean to say with all your experience around drugs, you have not met a person who has went from a good job and family to being alone in the alley robbing people to try to get their next high?

Not one. In fact the majority of my friends are eithera t university or doing what they want to be doing. This is just like what the big conservative drug czars say.


Of course you would be for drugs if you used them, and if you felt otherwise you would be a hypocrit.

I dont understand what this means.


Here is the story of one kid who was addicted to Marijuana.

But that isnt indicative of drug taking. This is my point. There are some people who are like this and some who are not. Therefore it can not be the drug, otherwise everyone would be like it. The problem lies with the structure of society.


No, I want to see them in manditory rehabilitation, and I want then to receive counselling and psychological help with their addiction.

Bourgeois-liberal-brush-the-problem-under-the-carpet-bullshit. The problem is not with the drugs, its with the way society is structured. People are not going to do this counselling or these programmes. These things exist already. If they worked they would work now. What would be so different in this [vile] society you are advocating? Why, suddenly, would everyone who was on drugs go to these rehab places. You would force them too. You would go around to all the 15 year old teenage boys houses and arrest them and send them to rehab centres to "correct" them. This is pure reaction.


How every great your friend is doing, I assure you should would be doing much better without her drug addiction.

You self-rightous prick.

[Urban Rubble]

Raise your hand if you are an adult who makes their own living and is self sustained. I&#39;ve got my hand up, and i am a heavy marijuana user. What about you MM ? What the fuck do you contribute on a day to day basis ? I&#39;m sure living at home with mommy and daddy and playing communist on the computer is really "bettering" society.

You are a pretentious little fuck who thinks he has all the answers. You need to open your mind little boy. Obviously, drugs can be misused. The problem isn&#39;t the drug, it&#39;s the people who misuse the. What&#39;s next, do we ban cars because people can misuse them and hurt someone ?

I don&#39;t have time for this, I have to be at work. Oh, but wait, I&#39;m such a bum that I shouldn&#39;t have a job.

[Soul Rebel]

[/QUOTE]
While I do not think that everyone who smokes/drinks are stoner bums, I think that they are abusing their bodies and are doing society a disservice by not living up to their potential. I feel that overall, drugs are a negative influence on society that must be taken out.

Theres the key phrase: i think. Just because you think they are damaging their bodies or not living up to their potential it doesnt mean they are and it doesnt mean they should have to change their behavior. This an opinion, mostly based on stereotypical views created by a society that you claim to be fighting against, in order to make a change. With drugs, people may or may not hurt themselves, its a matter of who you are. Either way, you really have no right to make judgements on these people or to tell them what they should be doing.

Good for you. Why don&#39;t you try doing something healty for recreation rather then drugs? Try sports, reading, or furthering your education instead&#33; Smoking lots of marijuana will lead to an addication, and you will end up on the streets, however, with moderate use, you&#39;ll just fuck yourself up a bit. Wake up, face reality and stop using drugs&#33;

Thats a bunch of crap. First marijuana does not lead to addiction. Marijuana doesnt contain the same chemical components of say cocaine to cause physical addiction, which leads also to mental addiction. Some people say they suffer from mental dependency, but this is debatable by members of society and researchers too.

And once again there you go making judgements about people who smoke marijuana. Not everyone that smokes is lazy as you make them out to be. There are many people in this world who are clean and do absolutely nothing with their lives. I know many people who have never even smoked weed and have chosen to do nothing with themselves. ITS A MATTER OF CHOICE (well, its mostly your position in life-your race, class, gender, sexuality, health-that allows you to or not to do something) that makes you do something in life, not the marijuana you do or do not smoke. I have been smoking marijuana for almost thirteen years and have decided to do many things in life: i have not one but two college degrees, am going to grad school, have traveled to many parts of the world, have always had a job, im very active in politics, etc. This was a matter of choice. If anything, the marijuana may have opened my eyes to many things and may have even helped me become who i am, which is a good person.

Also, next time you feel like making a statement about homelessness and marijuana, make sure you know what you are talking about. If any drug was to make a person homeless it is more likely to be alcohol or "hard" drugs such as cocaine. Also, most cases of homeless have been caused by such things as fininancial troubles, loss of family, natural disasters, and vetern status, not by being a toker.

I say no one has a right to do anything that is harmful in anyway to society, including self-injury. By the way, smoking anything, even cigarrettes kills brain cells.

And who are you to make this statement? Who are you to decide what people should or shouldnt do? Where&#39;s your proof that me smoking a joint is affecting society negatively, after all the postive things i give to society?

Im sure that my heading a soccer ball during my games has cost me brain cells, but nobody has tried to stop me from playing soccer. Are you now going to say that soccer is damaging to brain cells and should be banned?

If they were enjoying themselves through sports or art, then all would be fine and dandy, however drug abuse is a mental condition that must be medically treated. Smoking is not only harmful to yourself, but it is a negative influence to people around you. When other people see you smoke, particualarly children, then they too get the message that "smoking is cool".

Once again- who are you to determine what should be enjoyed and what shouldnt? Some people dont enjoy art or sports and shouldnt be forced into enjoying it. People are different and enjoy different things and that should be respected. You do not have the right to proclaim what people should or shouldnt be enjoying.

Also, do you realize that some of the best art work in the world has been created while the artist has been under the influence of drugs? Imagine that- if they hadnt been high, some if it may have never been created.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:13 PM
Also, do you realize that some of the best art work in the world has been created while the artist has been under the influence of drugs? Imagine that- if they hadnt been high, some if it may have never been created.
Also many great literary works were created while people were on drugs. &#39;On The Road&#39; was written in two weeks of speed induced creativity. William Burroughs, a heroin addict his entire life wrote some amazing books.

Also Timothy Leary, a Harvard Professor who discovered modern day LSD. An educated man who took LSD to experience sensations, feelings, visions even, which must have been out of this world for people who had no idea about the effects of such drugs at that time.

There are also different communities in Central and Southern America who take drugs as a spiritual thing. In Mexico there is a group of people who named magic mushrooms &#39;The Flesh of God&#39; because they believed it brought them closer to him. Regardless of your opinions on God, these communities function perfectly and peacefully.

In the amazon, there is a community of people who take some very strong hallucinogen because they can talk to the birds and the trees. They believe by taking this drug they can get closer to mother nature. And indeed it does. The whole community takes this drug and talk to the birds and the trees. Of course it isnt real, but the point is that these primitive communities have discovered this drug and believe it is a gift for them to get closer to their enviroment. I think that&#39;s a beautiful thing, for them. There society functions fine, they are peaceful, loving people who survive without the distractions of industrialization and live good, functioning lives. They live happily.

The reason I know about this is because I saw a documentry called &#39;Jungle Trip&#39; where this professor goes to visit this community. He is offered the opporunity to experience it. They go through a whole process of cleansing the body by pricking the skin so it bleeds and rubbing a paste onto the wound. Within a matter of seconds they vomit, the believe it purifies your body. After that they take the drug. But they have stages, the ultimate stage of enlightenment as they see it, is going out into the middle of the jungle and spending a week in this self made hut and you take the drug for a week. This community have built this platform with a roof over the top where these old men go out alone and sit, take this drug and talk to the trees and the birds. They believe it is bringing them closer to nature. For them it is a profound experience. They have gained immense wisdom from doing this...The professor couldnt do it. He was there for a day and then had to come back. He simply couldnt let go. He was too afraid to loose control and so kept trying to fight the trip.

Are we supposed to go into these peaceful communities, tell them that they are being harmful to society and send them all to rehab?

SenorahChe, what are your opinions on people taking drugs such as ecstasy, cocaine, LSD and heroin recreationally?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr do you gets your views from Russia 1905 or am I hallucianating.

Most of my views are entirely my own, but when I am struggling with an issue, I look up to Fidel Castro.


Self-injury as you call it does not effect society, and in many cases, probably more often then not, its a stress reliever.

Stress is not good for society.

There are more productive ways to relieve stress then abusing drugs.


Many sports are dangerous, Last time I played basketball I got hit in the head real hard, I&#39;m sure that knocked away a brain cell or two.

Sports strengthen the body and teach people important values such as cooperation and teamwork.


What service do I owe my capitalist society? I pay my taxes, what else do I owe them? Wait, and you don&#39;t have republican views, what was that?

I&#39;m not referring to a capitalist society, but a hypothetical socialist one. Creating such a society will take hard work and sacrifice for all of us.


I feel that overall, drugs are a negative influence on society that must be taken out.


Right. And capitalism, GWB, exploitation, the media, and Britney Spears are positive influences and should stay apart of society? Gotcha.

Agreed.


Then what is freedom? Who decides what is better for the welfare of society? Changing reality is not about changing leaders, governments and state functions. It is not about changing the name of those who rule and the purpose for those who are ruled, it is about dismanteling capitalism and removing power from the state and handing it over to the oppressed classes for them to decide for themselves.

You are so afraid that these people will not be able to make the right decisions that you refuse to even consider the possibility that they should have control. This fear is just bourgeois standardization. That is what we are supposed to believe. We are supposed to believe that the oppressed can not take control, can not make decisions for themsleves. But actually, it isn&#39;t true. We all have the ability to create, control and make decisions about how we want to live our lives.

The welfare of society is not something that can be enforced. It has to be a decision made on a local level from the bottom up, not from the top down. Freedom is not relative, it is an objective reality. Freedom is not selective. You can not pick and choose what freedom you desire and which freedom you do not. No individual, regardless of what power they proclaim to have has the right to decide what another human being does. And if that brings us into a nihilistic pit of nothingness then that is the case. Human ability and desire can not be fed to people, it has to grow from the heart. Freedom is not a game. To be free you must be able to say "I have a choice&#33;."

The welfare of society is to give freedom to the oppressed not be regulated by leaders who only govern you based on their own subjective view about how society should be. I am not you, you are not me, you can not decide what I want, or what is good for me. You can only be objective about what you want and you can only have a subjective view about how you like society to be. It can not be like that. Subjectivism can not govern our lives. We, as individuals, must govern our own lives. That is freedom&#33;

Taking drugs is an objective choice made by individuals. You can not oppress that by using your subjective rationalization. If I want to take drugs then I can, and you can not stop me. I am making that choice. What is important is that we make sure that people who make those choices do not suffer the consequences. It is so easy to fall into a rut of taking drugs and having nothing else, but, believe it or not, that does not have to be the way. People can take drugs recreationally and be happy and have productive lives and there are reasons for that. We have to make sure that every single human being has the same reasons.

I don&#39;t care weather you can do anything you want or not. We are individuals, but before that, we are a team, and there is no I in team. The society comes first, then if we feel like it, perhaps you can govern your own life to some extent if it isn&#39;t a big inconvinence to the state.


Thats a bunch of crap. First marijuana does not lead to addiction. Marijuana doesnt contain the same chemical components of say cocaine to cause physical addiction, which leads also to mental addiction. Some people say they suffer from mental dependency, but this is debatable by members of society and researchers too.

And once again there you go making judgements about people who smoke marijuana. Not everyone that smokes is lazy as you make them out to be. There are many people in this world who are clean and do absolutely nothing with their lives. I know many people who have never even smoked weed and have chosen to do nothing with themselves. ITS A MATTER OF CHOICE (well, its mostly your position in life-your race, class, gender, sexuality, health-that allows you to or not to do something) that makes you do something in life, not the marijuana you do or do not smoke. I have been smoking marijuana for almost thirteen years and have decided to do many things in life: i have not one but two college degrees, am going to grad school, have traveled to many parts of the world, have always had a job, im very active in politics, etc. This was a matter of choice. If anything, the marijuana may have opened my eyes to many things and may have even helped me become who i am, which is a good person.

Also, next time you feel like making a statement about homelessness and marijuana, make sure you know what you are talking about. If any drug was to make a person homeless it is more likely to be alcohol or "hard" drugs such as cocaine. Also, most cases of homeless have been caused by such things as fininancial troubles, loss of family, natural disasters, and vetern status, not by being a toker.

If marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco are so unaddictive, then how come people who so desparately need money to get themselves out of their whole, insist on spending their last cent one of these drugs?


Then what is freedom? Who decides what is better for the welfare of society? Changing reality is not about changing leaders, governments and state functions. It is not about changing the name of those who rule and the purpose for those who are ruled, it is about dismanteling capitalism and removing power from the state and handing it over to the oppressed classes for them to decide for themselves.

You are so afraid that these people will not be able to make the right decisions that you refuse to even consider the possibility that they should have control. This fear is just bourgeois standardization. That is what we are supposed to believe. We are supposed to believe that the oppressed can not take control, can not make decisions for themsleves. But actually, it isn&#39;t true. We all have the ability to create, control and make decisions about how we want to live our lives.

The welfare of society is not something that can be enforced. It has to be a decision made on a local level from the bottom up, not from the top down. Freedom is not relative, it is an objective reality. Freedom is not selective. You can not pick and choose what freedom you desire and which freedom you do not. No individual, regardless of what power they proclaim to have has the right to decide what another human being does. And if that brings us into a nihilistic pit of nothingness then that is the case. Human ability and desire can not be fed to people, it has to grow from the heart. Freedom is not a game. To be free you must be able to say "I have a choice&#33;."

The welfare of society is to give freedom to the oppressed not be regulated by leaders who only govern you based on their own subjective view about how society should be. I am not you, you are not me, you can not decide what I want, or what is good for me. You can only be objective about what you want and you can only have a subjective view about how you like society to be. It can not be like that. Subjectivism can not govern our lives. We, as individuals, must govern our own lives. That is freedom&#33;

Taking drugs is an objective choice made by individuals. You can not oppress that by using your subjective rationalization. If I want to take drugs then I can, and you can not stop me. I am making that choice. What is important is that we make sure that people who make those choices do not suffer the consequences. It is so easy to fall into a rut of taking drugs and having nothing else, but, believe it or not, that does not have to be the way. People can take drugs recreationally and be happy and have productive lives and there are reasons for that. We have to make sure that every single human being has the same reasons.

You&#39;ve made it quite clear before that you are not a team player.


How can you call a group of pacifists, hippies, musicians, university students, writers, painters, philosophers, people who love enjoying themselves, together, in a club or in their houses "harmful to society."

The wouldn&#39;t be if they weren&#39;t engaged in group sex or drug abuse&#33;


If I make a choice then I am making a choice. It is neither right nor wrong, it is simply my choice. If you disagree then that is your right. But you can not enforce your opinion, which is subjective to you on me for making a personal choice.

People who are educated and are empowered are able to make rational decisions. Give the oppressed the power to control their own lives and their communities and work to better the society they live in and provide for all, the attitudes and the will that you are so afraid of now will be completely different. You have to get past this the bourgeois laws of social and psyhgological science and look at it in a different perspective otherwise you are no good to anyone.

For all who do not know already, TAT is a rabid individualist and is NOT a team player.


But what happens to the people who enjoy taking drugs. What about the people who are able to function in society. You&#39;re going to lock all those people, who are perfectly fine, into rehab centres, just because you dont like drugs?

Put them in rehab because they are mentally ill.


Raise your hand if you are an adult who makes their own living and is self sustained. I&#39;ve got my hand up, and i am a heavy marijuana user. What about you MM ? What the fuck do you contribute on a day to day basis ? I&#39;m sure living at home with mommy and daddy and playing communist on the computer is really "bettering" society.

You are a pretentious little fuck who thinks he has all the answers. You need to open your mind little boy. Obviously, drugs can be misused. The problem isn&#39;t the drug, it&#39;s the people who misuse the. What&#39;s next, do we ban cars because people can misuse them and hurt someone ?

I don&#39;t have time for this, I have to be at work. Oh, but wait, I&#39;m such a bum that I shouldn&#39;t have a job.

A moderate drug addict can still be part of society, but will be impared to some degree. I focus mainly on school right now. A minimum wage job isn&#39;t worth blowing my grades over at the moment...


Are you just crazy. Is that what is? You&#39;re just a fruit loop aren&#39;t you. There can&#39;t be any other explination for it. How many times have people tried to explain to you what communism is. I think it&#39;s really arrogant that you refuse to believe people. You are completely rejecting Marxism, Leninsm, Trotskyism and reinventing what these people considered communism to be, just because it dosnt fit into what you want to believe...Maddness&#33;

Anarchism, statless, classless society - Communism, statless, classless society.

com-mun-ism n. 1. a theory of system of social organization based on the holding of all proporty in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. a system of social organization in which all economic activity is conducted by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

an-ar-chy n. 1. one who advocates anarchy as a political idea; a believer in an anarchic theory of society, esp. an adherent of social theory of Proudhon, Bakunin, or Kropotkin. 2. one who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed

Quite different no?


Once again- who are you to determine what should be enjoyed and what shouldnt? Some people dont enjoy art or sports and shouldnt be forced into enjoying it. People are different and enjoy different things and that should be respected. You do not have the right to proclaim what people should or shouldnt be enjoying.

Also, do you realize that some of the best art work in the world has been created while the artist has been under the influence of drugs? Imagine that- if they hadnt been high, some if it may have never been created.

We as a group are to decide what is best for society. Maybe if those artists hadn&#39;t be using drugs, we would still have many of the artists who are dead today because of drugs.


There are also different communities in Central and Southern America who take drugs as a spiritual thing. In Mexico there is a group of people who named magic mushrooms &#39;The Flesh of God&#39; because they believed it brought them closer to him. Regardless of your opinions on God, these communities function perfectly and peacefully.

The reason I know about this is because I saw a documentry called &#39;Jungle Trip&#39; where this professor goes to visit this community. He is offered the opporunity to experience it. They go through a whole process of cleansing the body by pricking the skin so it bleeds and rubbing a paste onto the wound. Within a matter of seconds they vomit, the believe it purifies your body. After that they take the drug. But they have stages, the ultimate stage of enlightenment as they see it, is going out into the middle of the jungle and spending a week in this self made hut and you take the drug for a week. This community have built this platform with a roof over the top where these old men go out alone and sit, take this drug and talk to the trees and the birds. They believe it is bringing them closer to nature. For them it is a profound experience. They have gained immense wisdom from doing this...The professor couldnt do it. He was there for a day and then had to come back. He simply couldnt let go. He was too afraid to loose control and so kept trying to fight the trip.


The crazy things that those religious freaks do....

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:27 PM
I don&#39;t care weather you can do anything you want or not. We are individuals, but before that, we are a team, and there is no I in team. The society comes first, then if we feel like it, perhaps you can govern your own life to some extent if it isn&#39;t a big inconvinence to the state.
I like the way you took me point by point and refuted my argument. You would never consider repeating yourself now would you. You are so boring&#33;

It&#39;s amazing how many different ways you can say the same thing. It&#39;s a clever trick.


You&#39;ve made it quite clear before that you are not a team player.

Are you just trying to be provocative or do you actually have something to say. Where do you get this assertion from? How did you come to this conclusion.

Are you a team player? Since when has enforcing your beliefs on people being "team work."


The wouldn&#39;t be if they weren&#39;t engaged in group sex or drug abuse&#33;

Can&#39;t we just ban this mutha fucka...someone, press the ban button&#33;

You stil havent actually explained why any of these things are a danger to your perfect little society. How is taking drugs in your house with your friends on a friday night harmful to society? How is having group sex, harmful to society?

The thing is, you don&#39;t know the answer. You just repeat yourself or attempt to provoke people, because actually, you don&#39;t have anything worth while saying.


For all who do not know already, TAT is a rabid individualist and is NOT a team player.

There is a difference between having the ability to make personal choices and being involved in the managment of society. You can do both. That&#39;s the point. People can take drugs and function as productive human beings at the same time.


Put them in rehab because they are mentally ill.

:lol: You, preaching about mental illness...this is coming from you. You make me piss myself with laughter. Mentally ill? Wow&#33; You certainly are a charactor. My god, you&#39;re parents must be proud&#33;


com-mun-ism n. 1. a theory of system of social organization based on the holding of all proporty in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. a system of social organization in which all economic activity is conducted by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

Please dont tell me you took that from dictionary.com. Are you serious? Jesus Christ almighty. You&#39;re a joke. Your just a big joke. :lol: How can you take yourself seriously?

*shakes his head in amazment*


We as a group are to decide what is best for society.

Why can&#39;t people make individual choices about how they spend their spare time? This isnt a quesiton of society, it is a question of individual choice. The administration of society is something different. They are not the same things and can not be talked about in the same context. If I drink a bottle of wine or three at the weekend, does not effect the way I can function during the week when I have a responsability to society to help in my community.

You are taking all your reaction based on the problems of some marginalized people in present day society. How can you rationalize a future society based on present day problems.

The problem in society is not the drug, otherwise people would not be able to do anything. Actually they can, they can have a job and go to university and get a degree. If that is the case, which it is, then the drug can not be to blame. The problem comes from somwhere else.

[Please dont bother replying to this if all you have is a one line reply. It&#39;s a waste of time. The point of debate is to refute my argument. Take what I have said, point by point and tell me why I am wrong.]


The crazy things that those religious freaks do....

You have missed the point entirely. This is why you are so hated on che-lives. You just don&#39;t listen. You have this arrogant belief that you&#39;re right and so fuck what everyone else says because we are all wrong. No need to pay attention to what people are saying or even take the time to attempt to refute their arguments because no one other than you could be right. One of these days your going to have a nasty wake up call. I hope it is sooner rather than later.

[Som]

There are more productive ways to relieve stress then abusing drugs.




Sports strengthen the body and teach people important values such as cooperation and teamwork.

As well as competition, arrogance and a set of winners and losers.

Drugs relieve stress and enable people to cope more easily with the stresses of day to day life this can increase general productivity (returning your use of an oversimplified blanket statement my own overly simplified blanket statements), as well as an artistic productivity that may not have happened otherwise. Shakespeare was a drug user as well.


If marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco are so unaddictive, then how come people who so desparately need money to get themselves out of their whole, insist on spending their last cent one of these drugs?

80 million americans have used drugs, and the vast majority are social drinkers, if you&#39;re arrogant blanket statements had any merit then the whole world would be a population of worthless drugged out drunks.
Have you considered the reason people abuse drugs and alcohol(abuse, not simply use)? more often at the bottom of the capitalist social rung, dropping capitalism will make any abuse far less prevalent.

But thats the bigger point, since you seem to have a logical black hole where you can&#39;t distinguish between use and abuse, arguing with you is pretty worthless.

[sparky44]

Marijuana used in moderation doesn&#39;t cause too many problems but if it is smoked as often as cigarrettes, it causes the same diseases as tobacco.......lung cancer, emphysema etc. Marijuana has many medicinal purposes as does heroin and methadone. Methadone has only two uses in medicine......heroin addiction and palliative care. As with alcohol, when it is used in moderation there is nothing wrong with it......it is when it is abused as with any drug, that problems start. Tobacco is the major cause of a great many cancers.......I have spent a long time working with the dying and have seen the damage/pain caused by cigarrettes, alcohol and tobacco. Second hand smoke hurts people as well.....so the tobacco addict doesn&#39;t consider that he is hurting other people as well. Drugs like cocaine and ecstasy have been known to cause cardiac arrest and death in young people......what a waste of a life because they thought it couldn&#39;t happen to them. What about people that lose everything because of a drug addiction??? What about diseases caused by sharing dirty needles??? What about crimes committed because the addict needed his next fix??? Have you seen the carnage on our streets because of alcohol??? How many people die every year because of drunk drivers......and I&#39;m talking about the innocent people. Alcohol and drug abuse costs society billions in lost productivity, healthcare costs etc. Open your eyes......addiction hurts everyone.

[Urban Rubble]

A moderate drug addict can still be part of society, but will be impared to some degree. I focus mainly on school right now. A minimum wage job isn&#39;t worth blowing my grades over at the moment...

I smoke herb every day. Where does that put me in your arbitrary little scale ? Oh, and if you can&#39;t handle a part time job while going to school, you&#39;d better stop preaching about helping society, becuase you are a lazy ass kid.

I&#39;m not even going to respond to the ret of this drivel. You are so far gone that it isn&#39;t even funny. I am not saying we should go around encouraging drug use, but the extremes you take that to are just sick. You know, your puritan ass views would creep me out if I wasn&#39;t so sure that society can never revert back to the bullshit you preach. Nobody will tell me what to do with my life, not the state and not society. You are naieve to think that any real social change can be accomplished by force i.e, prison, mental institutions.

I would say that heavy drug use of any kind should be discouraged, but "soft" drugs should not be an issue. For the most part, people are just not as heavily affected by these things as you want to believe. If someone is going to be a pile, then they are going to be a pile whether they smoke herb of not. Sure, give em a heavy crank habit and they&#39;ll be fucked for life a good 70% of the time, but with most things that is just not the case.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Why should hard drugs be treated any differently then a soft one? How exactly would classify a "hard drug" anyways? Perhaps marijuana could have medicinal value, and I think more research should be done. Heroine might have an unknown medicinal value too for all we know. We should increse funding to laboratories so we can do more animal testing to perhaps figure out what effects exactly these drugs have on the body, and perhaps learn to manipulate them. However, no matter what the case, I don&#39;t think it should be legal to use any drug without a perscription.

[Urban Rubble]

Why should hard drugs be treated any differently then a soft one? How exactly would classify a "hard drug" anyways?

Are you kidding me ? You see no difference between crack cocaine and some weed ? Well, crack is addictive, very addictive. The type of addictive that, after doing it a few times, people have been known to do anything to get some. Suck dick, rob old ladies, anything. Crack will change your entire mind, it basically makes you insane for awile. After using for awhile, you&#39;ll be like that for good. Marijuana on the other hand will not drastically change your mindset. You will most likely never feel the urge to commit a crime to obtain some. You cannot get addicted. The worst it could get is that you like it a bit too much and abuse it, much like one would do with a fatty foods. Do you want to ban potato chips as well ?


Perhaps marijuana could have medicinal value, and I think more research should be done.

The tests have been done, and it&#39;s been proved. They are finding new uses for it all the time. Among other things, it treats chemotherapy patient&#39;s side effects. If I feel sick, I can smoke to my stomach, I can smoke a little and feel completely fine. They are making huge medical breakthroughs with marijuana.

But tell me again, what is the problem with smoking weed ? Why is it that I know about 50 people who smoke herb, and all but about 5 of them are successful/semi successful ? Why are they not all bums leaching off of society ? I&#39;ll tell you, it&#39;s because you are completely wrong about this.

[Y2A]

Soft drugs are natural and Hard drugs are lab made. If you do not see the difference between the two, then there is no hope for you MM.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:30 AM
Why should hard drugs be treated any differently then a soft one? How exactly would classify a "hard drug" anyways? Perhaps marijuana could have medicinal value, and I think more research should be done. Heroine might have an unknown medicinal value too for all we know. We should increse funding to laboratories so we can do more animal testing to perhaps figure out what effects exactly these drugs have on the body, and perhaps learn to manipulate them. However, no matter what the case, I don&#39;t think it should be legal to use any drug without a perscription.
What planet are you on??? The research has already been done. Marijuana has many medicinal purposes and it has already been proven or a lot of countries wouldn&#39;t have it legalized and controlled for medicinal purposes. Heroin, as well, is an excellent pain killer for the terminally ill and is legal for medicinal purposes in certain countries. In these countries it can only be prescribed by a dr licensed by the government to prescribe it and isn&#39;t prescribed all that often. It is prescribed when other very strong analgesics are no longer working.

But don&#39;t forget that even prescription drugs can be addictive as well

[Urban Rubble]

However, no matter what the case, I don&#39;t think it should be legal to use any drug without a perscription.

Sorry, forgot this one point.

Where do you draw the line with prescriptions ? Should caffeine be illegal ? It&#39;s a drug, so do we say goodbye to soda, coffee and candy ? What about asprin, do I need to ask the doctor if I can cure my headache or not ? How about cough syrup, do you really want me to go to the doctor everytime I get a scratchy throat ? The list goes on and on.

Oh, and morphine is synthetic heroin, so next time you break your leg, tell the doctor you don&#39;t want anything for it. Goodness gracious, you could become addicted &#33;

[sparky44]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2004, 06:58 AM
[Oh, and morphine is synthetic heroin, so next time you break your leg, tell the doctor you don&#39;t want anything for it. Goodness gracious, you could become addicted &#33;
Morphine, along with codeine, dilaudid, percocet, percodan, Tylenol 1,2,3 and 4 are all opiates......not synthetic heroin. And by the way.....for the most part......if these drugs are used for the purposes they are intended for a person generally doesn&#39;t get addicted.

[Urban Rubble]

Morphine, along with codeine, dilaudid, percocet, percodan, Tylenol 1,2,3 and 4 are all opiates......not synthetic heroin. And by the way.....for the most part......if these drugs are used for the purposes they are intended for a person generally doesn&#39;t get addicted.

I know that most people don&#39;t get addicted, that was my point. Just like most people don&#39;t turn to sniffing coke after they use marijuana. MM seems to believe that just because some people abuse things that they should be outlawed.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I agree with Y2A about the Hard/soft drugs thing- most recreational chemicals made in labs is nasty shit.

Stick to naturals.

btw, I thought that if you were given morphine in hospital you became addicted, but since the doctors know that they treat it as well?...

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 08:59 AM
I agree with Y2A about the Hard/soft drugs thing- most recreational chemicals made in labs is nasty shit.

Stick to naturals.

btw, I thought that if you were given morphine in hospital you became addicted, but since the doctors know that they treat it as well?...
I agree as well about hard/soft drugs - stick with pot, it&#39;s natural. Certain chemical drugs are nasty and are not only a danger to the user but also a danger to those who live by the clandestine labs and a serious danger to the environment and the officers that have to go in and clean up the lab. The other chemicals are usually prescription. They are nasty unless they are used for the purpose they were intended for.......they are supposed to be strictly controlled but until they stop unscrupulous drs who prescribe them or go after patients who go to numerous drs then there will continue to be a problem.

As for becoming addicted to morphine just because it&#39;s given to you in the hospital......not always true. As I said before, if it&#39;s used for severe pain relief one will not become addicted in most cases. Addiction does happen but not as often as people think. Dilaudid is 5 times as strong as morphine and in my work with the terminally ill I haven&#39;t seen an addict yet. Also, drs can only treat addiction if the addict recognizes his addiction and wants to be treated.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Now, I see no logic in people who support banning religious practices but not drugs. That is like saying that religion is the opium of the people, but actual opium is not. I think that substances such as morphine serve a legitimate medical purpose, and should be available for just that. I think that unhealthy food such as potato chips should not be part of food rations, but should not be banned, and thus naturally difficult to obtain since private enterprise is outlawed. (See private enterprise thread) I think that caffeene is harmless, but should not be added to beverages.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 08:14 PM
Now, I see no logic in people who support banning religious practices but not drugs. That is like saying that religion is the opium of the people, but actual opium is not.
The questions that are being raised here are different to the ones you are percieving. The argument is "Should we have a choice." That answer is yes, because you can not oppress someones subjective choice wihtout impossing your own subjective view on them. What gives you the right as a human being to tell other human beings how to live based on your own subjective opinions. You do not like drugs, but I do. End of story.

The argument you then pose is that drugs are bad for society. The counter argument is that it is not the drug which harms society it is the conditions of society which create the problems for drug users. Many people take drugs and lead normal functioning lives. You may have a subjective view about that, and that is your right. You can think that those people are wasting their lifes, are mentally ill etc, because that is your view. It is wrong, but it is your view. However, what the point is, is whether those people can actually function in society. Yes, the can&#33; They can contribute to society, and they can take drugs recreationally. Now, to refute that counter argument, you have only repeated the same subjective view. "But if they didnt take drugs they could do this and this...blah blah blah," but the point is, it is not your choice to make. You think making sports or whatever it is you do is a good way to be. No me, not other people. As long as people are able to function in society and contribute, which they can, I am living proof, as is Urban Rubble and SenorahChe, then taking drugs is their own personal choice, and has absolutly nothing to do with whether you find it acceptable.

Taking a drug recreationally, at home or in a club, is not the same as organized religion. God does not exist and neither will anyone go to heaven if they follow the bible, Torah or Koran etc. That is far more dangerous than a group of hippies smoking weed on a saturday afternoon in the sun. What harm are these people doing? They have contributed to society during the week, and to relax at the weekend, they have made a personal choice about how they want to spend their weekend.

Forcing people to believe in a god which dosnt exist and accept rules to get into a place which also does not exist and to subjugate your life and your beliefs to a myth, regardless of the state of your comrades or indeed the world is far more dangerouos than those hippies sitting in the sun, enjoying a spliff, talking about music, films, politics and art.

You are no more important than me. You may think your views are rightous and moral, but only you think them. You have no right to inflict thosed views, regardless of how rightous you think they are, on people who just think your crazy&#33;

EDIT: I&#39;ve turned into Redstar :)

[Urban Rubble]

I just cannot understand how you can expect society to function and people to live happy lives while controlling their everyday behavior.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Religion, organized or not, is just as harmful to society as drugs. Religious people are just as capable as drug users to living productive lives. Many fundamentalist Christians who I know have been to college, usually a Christian college, but a college none the less, and many of them have very high paying jobs. Just as I would not what some whack-a-doodle fundamentalist teaching my kids that they need god or they are going to hell, I wouldn&#39;t want some drug addict trying to teach my kids that drugs are cool either.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 11:45 PM
Religion, organized or not, is just as harmful to society as drugs. Religious people are just as capable as drug users to living productive lives. Many fundamentalist Christians who I know have been to college, usually a Christian college, but a college none the less, and many of them have very high paying jobs. Just as I would not what some whack-a-doodle fundamentalist teaching my kids that they need god or they are going to hell, I wouldn&#39;t want some drug addict trying to teach my kids that drugs are cool either.
Rhetoric&#33; That&#39;s all you&#39;re about, and unconvincing rhetoric at that. The point of debate is to take what the other person has said and refute it point by point...All you give is this...what ever, this, is&#33; Perrr-thetic.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I know that you think Castro is really shit, but why don&#39;t you at least consider reading his opinions on the subject? I know that he takes a softer line on substance abuse then I, but at least you should hear what he has to say.

BTW, I think perscriptions should stay about the same as they are now. If you have a condition, the doctor will most likely give you something to take care of it. Many medications are very destructive to the human body, but your body needs them anyways. If you have a broken leg, then it is reasonable to say that any sane doctor would give you a pain killer appropriate for the kind of break. However, I am talking about healty people, not people who need their drugs for a medical condition.

[truthaddict11]

oh someone please save me from my hopeless addiction&#33; I take Advil for my back pain most days i work, and I am on a 2 liter a day addiction to (gasp) caffenated soda&#33; I also occasionally take a few hits of apsirin to deal with headaches, MidnightMaurader please save me from this helpless addiction with your outdated puritanical values&#33;

[Guest1]

Cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, psilocybin mushrooms, ativan, oxycontin.

That&#39;s what I&#39;ve tried thus far. Other than ativan, and maybe tobacco, I regret nothing. Ativan just calmed me a little, but mostly just made me throw up. Soemtime in the next year I plan to hit acid too.

In terms of chemicals, mostly I&#39;ll agree you should stay away from them, but everyone I know who&#39;s tried acid says it is the be all and end all of drugs. So yeah, I&#39;m not ruling out chemicals.

Oh and I agree, the religious right should not be allowed to teach their bullshit in schools... I hope you weren&#39;t planning on becoming a teacher MM <_<

[Le Libérer]

First of all I really dont consider pot dangerous. Its proven to medicimal, Ive seen it in action with my AIDS patients.

But drugs like herion o r crack are the great controllers. I beleive they have been introduced in the US society to bring down those who would actually be making great changes to soceity and human rights if they hadnt been exposed to these drugs especially crack. I see this daily in the city I live in.

I have sat back and watched 14 or 15 year olds in my neighborhood, try to intice others to buy crack from them at a local convenience store. Where are these children getting it? Are they already users? What contribution will they ever have to progress or help make a change to their lifestyles? They are already doomed.

I recently visited a premature ICU. I looked over at the baby next to our healthy baby. This poor lil girl had been there 3 months was 5 months premature had tubes breathing for her, pumping her bowels, feeding her. I asked the nurse where on earth is this babys parents? She looked sad, kinda looked down and made excuses by saying, well when a baby has been here as long as this one has, the parents dont come as often anymore. Then she said, this baby will probably go into foster care if she makes it thru this, she was addicted to crack.

The question was, drugs and society? I dont think that babys mom had any intentions of being where she was when she began to use drugs recreationally. I also am not saying everyone who uses recreationally will go on to be crackheads. But many many do. God my heart went out for that little baby&#33;&#33;

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 21 2004, 08:15 AM
Cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, psilocybin mushrooms, ativan, oxycontin.

That&#39;s what I&#39;ve tried thus far. Other than ativan, and maybe tobacco, I regret nothing. Ativan just calmed me a little, but mostly just made me throw up. Soemtime in the next year I plan to hit acid too.

In terms of chemicals, mostly I&#39;ll agree you should stay away from them, but everyone I know who&#39;s tried acid says it is the be all and end all of drugs. So yeah, I&#39;m not ruling out chemicals.

Oh and I agree, the religious right should not be allowed to teach their bullshit in schools... I hope you weren&#39;t planning on becoming a teacher MM <_<
I have heard stories about people taken one acid trip and being screwed up for the rest of there lives. I wouldnt taken as there is no golden truth "that everything must be tried once in your life" as many of my friends belive.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Debora [email protected] 21 2004, 05:42 AM
First of all I really dont consider pot dangerous. Its proven to medicimal, Ive seen it in action with my AIDS patients.

But drugs like herion o r crack are the great controllers. I beleive they have been introduced in the US society to bring down those who would actually be making great changes to soceity and human rights if they hadnt been exposed to these drugs especially crack. I see this daily in the city I live in.

I have sat back and watched 14 or 15 year olds in my neighborhood, try to intice others to buy crack from them at a local convenience store. Where are these children getting it? Are they already users? What contribution will they ever have to progress or help make a change to their lifestyles? They are already doomed.

I recently visited a premature ICU. I looked over at the baby next to our healthy baby. This poor lil girl had been there 3 months was 5 months premature had tubes breathing for her, pumping her bowels, feeding her. I asked the nurse where on earth is this babys parents? She looked sad, kinda looked down and made excuses by saying, well when a baby has been here as long as this one has, the parents dont come as often anymore. Then she said, this baby will probably go into foster care if she makes it thru this, she was addicted to crack.

The question was, drugs and society? I dont think that babys mom had any intentions of being where she was when she began to use drugs recreationally. I also am not saying everyone who uses recreationally will go on to be crackheads. But many many do. God my heart went out for that little baby&#33;&#33;
AIDS patients are a different story then healthy people. If marijuana does in provide a medical benefit to these people, then it should be available to them with a perscription.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2004, 10:55 PM
I just cannot understand how you can expect society to function and people to live happy lives while controlling their everyday behavior.
I am positive that MidnightMarauder wants to make people&#39;s lives more happy. Of course people are not happy if they have no choice about anything. But as a society we decide certain things which should be controlled, such as drugs. We do this because we are engineering an environment in which it is easier for people to cultivate a happy life for themselves.

[Le Libérer]

I personally dont use pot, it has an awful effect on me. I have major anxiety when using it, it doesnt make me happy at all, so why use it if it isnt fun? (personal opinion)

I also beleive if it can be medicimal to terminal patients, it would be useful to those who arent sick. I allowed my 15 year old daughter to use pot to releieve depression. It was alot less dangerous ( the jury is still out) than prozac. She actually became more productive when smoking pot than before&#33; And I realize the effects for her arent the same on everyone else, it certainly wasnt for me. I wish I could smoke pot and enjoy it, but atlas thats not in the cards for me.

And Midnight, if we could legalize pot and make alcohol illegal, I do believe society would change for the better. I have never seen anyone get violent due to the effects of pot, or kill someone while behind the wheel&#33;

Bottom line, I dont use pot but I certainly would vote to legalize it&#33; Somerthing to consider&#33;

[Don't Change Your Name]

So, genius, what do you plan to do if you get to power? Do you plan to make drugs illegal? You must be kidding me. In first place, if you make it illegal, not only you are threating people as your sheeps and thinking they are irresponsible and as such they do not deserve to have any kind of freedom. You are also allowing people to start illegal capitalist businesses in other countries, whose rulers will exploit people to produce the drugs, and get a lot of money thanks to those kids that will try to sell those drugs in your Leninist utopia, and as many users will still exist (as they do now in this reactionary world) so this kids could even become rich&#33; In a "communist" country&#33; What are you going to do? Invade other countries to stop such a business? (and as such become a hated fascist idiot whose heirs to his throne will be a bunch of corrupt Big Brothers) Will you try to "control" more the people, therefore creating a 1984-styled world where most of the people will overthrow such an order and bring back that old "liberty and democracy" that we "have" right now at the first chance they have? (they won&#39;t create communism because you would indoctrinate them to make them think that anarchists are hidden capitalists so they will believe the modern capppies).
And we shouldnt forget how the gangs and mafia-styled opportunists will fight and kill themselves to control the illegal drug market&#33;
Honestly, I would forget the idea of drug control. Let people control themselves on that. If you want to stop drugs just warn people about the problems that drugs would bring them and others.


For all who do not know already, TAT is a rabid individualist and is NOT a team player.

Good attemp. Someone who wants to be over the rest of the world to control their lives thinking that it is for "their welfare" tries to get supportes by drawing a "black or white" spectrum where those who oppose him are for some reason capitalists.


I don&#39;t care weather you can do anything you want or not. We are individuals, but before that, we are a team, and there is no I in team. The society comes first, then if we feel like it, perhaps you can govern your own life to some extent if it isn&#39;t a big inconvinence to the state.

"...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone...." - Benito Mussolini

I have just used the same "black and white" argument that you used on what i quoted a few lines above to show how fascist you are.


And you are a model citizen. Just what the ruling class ordered.

You hit the nail TAT.


Abstinence clearly hasn&#39;t done you a lot of good.

:lol:

[el_profe]

All drugs should be legal. No gov. has the right to tell a citicizen what it can and cant do to its body.
Also it would end the cartels, just like the end of prohibition was a big blow to the mob.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Hard drugs have been used before quite effectively to make people into slaves, particularly in the prostitution industry. A person who is addicted to a drug like heroine will do ANYTHING for his/her next high.

[Guest1]

right, so if it was legal, do you think they would need to be slaves to get it?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Once the addiction set in, yes, they would become slaves. A person could have people totally under their control simply by giving them access to drugs. Once they can&#39;t afford drugs, they need to do anything they possibly can to get their next high, and if that means selling themselves into drug slavery, then many will do it.

[Individual]

Once the addiction set in, yes, they would become slaves. A person could have people totally under their control simply by giving them access to drugs. Once they can&#39;t afford drugs, they need to do anything they possibly can to get their next high, and if that means selling themselves into drug slavery, then many will do it.

haha.

You&#39;ve got two options with this; because drugs will not go away. (Like the Shane Co.) I guarentee it.

1/ A MM type of option: Let&#39;s quarantine all of the drug users. This will help from spreading drug use to other &#39;upstanding&#39; members of society. Hell, let&#39;s even throw them in their with the AIDS victims that way hopefully they can all pass sooner.

2/ A solution to solve your &#39;drug slavery&#39; ordeal: Legalize drugs. With the legalization of drugs comes very inexpensive drugs as they are mass produced. Meaning that no one needs to be a &#39;slave&#39;, as this addiction would become very inexpensive. The government would extremely benefit off of this as they could &#39;tax&#39; the products. New/more trade options are opened. Crime is dramatically reduced (Don&#39;t believe me, look at prohibition and time this by the number of drugs in which are illegal.) Criminal drug dealers are almost completely shut out of business, thus dramatically reducing crime, and the &#39;drug business&#39;.

[Guest1]

Plus, after the temporary jump in use cause of curiosity, the rate actually decreases. This happened with weed and hash in Amsterdam, and you can always have education programs to build an atmosphere of responsible drug use.

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

Always question- whats wrong with quarantining those infected with HIV?

I agree with your first choice.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:36 AM

Once the addiction set in, yes, they would become slaves. A person could have people totally under their control simply by giving them access to drugs. Once they can&#39;t afford drugs, they need to do anything they possibly can to get their next high, and if that means selling themselves into drug slavery, then many will do it.

haha.

You&#39;ve got two options with this; because drugs will not go away. (Like the Shane Co.) I guarentee it.

1/ A MM type of option: Let&#39;s quarantine all of the drug users. This will help from spreading drug use to other &#39;upstanding&#39; members of society. Hell, let&#39;s even throw them in their with the AIDS victims that way hopefully they can all pass sooner.

2/ A solution to solve your &#39;drug slavery&#39; ordeal: Legalize drugs. With the legalization of drugs comes very inexpensive drugs as they are mass produced. Meaning that no one needs to be a &#39;slave&#39;, as this addiction would become very inexpensive. The government would extremely benefit off of this as they could &#39;tax&#39; the products. New/more trade options are opened. Crime is dramatically reduced (Don&#39;t believe me, look at prohibition and time this by the number of drugs in which are illegal.) Criminal drug dealers are almost completely shut out of business, thus dramatically reducing crime, and the &#39;drug business&#39;.
Hey now, I said rehabilitate. Ever hear of rehabilitation clinics? You know? Those places where they give people counciling and classes to help them deal with their problems in a manner other then escapism through drugs? I think a 1-6 week rehabilitation plan should be sufficient to give people the help they need to live productively without the need for drugs. As for the legalization plan, we all know how happy, non-dagerous, and productive coke and heroine addicts are. Why, with your trade options, *cough* capitalism *cough* *cough* think of all the money we could make? If legalizing drugs will take away the drug trade, then by that logic we should legalize extortion and then maybe the mafia will go away, or legalize assualt weapons too, and maybe they will just "go away". Hell, why not legalize prostitution too so that there will be no more prostitutes&#33;

[Urban Rubble]

Why, with your trade options, *cough* capitalism *cough* *cough* think of all the money we could make?

As hard as it is to believe, some of us don&#39;t live on Stalinist fantasy island. This is the real world, one which is mostly Capitalist at the moment. He said this because it is positive aspect of legalization in the real world.

[Saint-Just]

And you are a model citizen. Just what the ruling class ordered.

Taking drugs isn&#39;t rebelling against society. Capitalist culture orders us to take drugs, listen to music. Midnightmarauder is a revolutionary like all of us here who want to smash capitalism.


You&#39;ve got two options with this; because drugs will not go away.

Drugs have disappeared in socialist nations.

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 02:21 AM
we all know how happy, non-dagerous, and productive coke and heroine addicts are.
You obviously have a stereotypical view of drug users.. In fact many drug users are valuble members of society, more often than not in the creative sector.. Film makers, artists, musicians.. There are doctors and lawyers who use drugs.. Drugs are not always abused, that is a common misconception, I imagine the only drug users you have seen have been on television or the movies..

Taking drugs isn&#39;t rebelling against society.


Taking drugs isn&#39;t exactly rebellious anymore but it is subversive, it is part of counter culture, it does bring one into contact with subversive people.. It does open doors and remove previously instilled capitalistic values..

[cubist]

how can you ban something that is made from acceassible resources without restricting human rights, legalise them all and let people die is what i say. harsh i know but people who do herion and cocaine choose to they can go into rehab if they want but they don&#39;t want and they die eventually. quarantine is impossible human rights of those infected with hiv must be the same as humans.

[Saint-Just]

Taking drugs isn&#39;t exactly rebellious anymore but it is subversive, it is part of counter culture, it does bring one into contact with subversive people.. It does open doors and remove previously instilled capitalistic values..

I don&#39;t think taking drugs changes people&#39;s perceptions of capitalism. Most of drug culture is centred around club culture which is highly materialist and even legitimises crime in the name of individual promulgation of wealth.

Amongst people on this site, there is a culture of drug use that is different to that.

[Danton]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 26 2004, 06:53 PM
Most of drug culture is centred around club culture which is highly materialist
I disagree on both points, drug users in club culture make up a tiny fraction of overall drug users.. Mainly they take ecstasy, a non-addictive stimulant..

Also, for every Cream or Manumission or any "corporate club" you care to name, there are ten "happenings" in basements and squats and feilds and dissused warehouses.. Where people of every ideological persusion indulge in non-materialist pastimes such as dancing or meeting new people...

[cubist]

mao the club culture is crazy, its not greatly material, well it is but it isn&#39;t the dance music spectrum is fucking huge the only common factor is E and cocaine.

slamming vinyl and alike raves are different to the end and gatecrasher by alot

[sparky44]

Originally posted by Danton+Mar 26 2004, 01:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Danton @ Mar 26 2004, 01:40 PM)
[email protected] 24 2004, 02:21 AM
we all know how happy, non-dagerous, and productive coke and heroine addicts are.
You obviously have a stereotypical view of drug users.. In fact many drug users are valuble members of society, more often than not in the creative sector.. Film makers, artists, musicians.. There are doctors and lawyers who use drugs.. Drugs are not always abused, that is a common misconception, I imagine the only drug users you have seen have been on television or the movies..

Taking drugs isn&#39;t rebelling against society.


Taking drugs isn&#39;t exactly rebellious anymore but it is subversive, it is part of counter culture, it does bring one into contact with subversive people.. It does open doors and remove previously instilled capitalistic values.. [/b]
When drugs are taken for any other purpose than what they are intended for then it is abuse. Unless the drug is used in the treatment of disease, pain etc then it is abuse. And lets face it, there aren&#39;t too many productive members of society that are drug addicts.

[Danton]

Well, who determines what drugs are to be used for? Ecstasy seems to me obviously designed specifically for dancing and meeting people.. Peyote, mushrooms, Lsd.. What are they intended for sparko?

For entering the spirit world? Or just getting high? Marijuana? We all know it does have medicinal uses but since it is a natural herb, how can it be misused? What the shit are you talking about? You loon.. Let&#39;s not face it, let&#39;s see some evidence of your narrow minded assertions..

Let us remember the literary greats, all or most of whom were absolutley faced on one thing or another, absinthe or opium or morphine or a combo.. The musicians, the artists whose great works were often inspired by little jaunts into the surreal.. Abusers were they? Unproductive?

What a bunch of arse&#33; :lol:

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Let us remember the literary greats, all or most of whom were absolutley faced on one thing or another, absinthe or opium or morphine or a combo.. The musicians, the artists whose great works were often inspired by little jaunts into the surreal.. Abusers were they? Unproductive?

Care for me to rattle off the names of some artists who have died thanks to drugs? People don&#39;t need drugs in order to come up with a peice of art. Most artists tend to do their work sober. Sounds more like an excuse to justify their addiction to me. So yes, abusers they are. Unproductive? The probably would be more productive had they lived longer&#33;

[The Feral Underclass]

I suggest ewveryone stops talking to MeAnInGlEsSMoRoN until he realizes what a tit he is...

The Epic struggle :rolleyes: What world do you live in...this is the internet...and the only epic struggle you are going through is your sexuality&#33;&#33;&#33; We all know you want my ass&#33;&#33;&#33;

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 10:50 AM
The Epic struggle :rolleyes: What world do you live in...this is the internet...and the only epic struggle you are going through is your sexuality&#33;&#33;&#33; We all know you want my ass&#33;&#33;&#33;
Do you see any larger arguements between two people who are political polar opposites? You dont need to take everything so out of context. In the real world, this arguement means nothing, but here on Che-lives, we tend to take over threads argueing with each other.

[cubist]

#MM

lets make apoint, why don&#39;t we tell everyone drugs are bad tell them what happens and see if they still want if they do the so be it problem solved. its a free world my right to die from what ever ailment i want is my right not yours.

names some dead artists, start with vangough our very own MR alcoholic hes cool&#33;&#33;
elvis so what, bob marley again so what who cares if peope die from enjoying drugs, they choose to take them

[Guest1]

Uh, bob marley died from cancer <_<

Anyways, drugs are fun. If you don&#39;t wanna do them, that&#39;s your choice, I&#39;m not gonna force you. I hope you would have the same respect for my choice.

I hope you don&#39;t think someone like Hunter S. Thompson would have been better without drugs. Or the Beatles, had Bob Dylan not introduced them to weed. Or Jimi Hendrix. Or Lewis Carol.

What would happen to Alice in Wonderland had he never taken opium?

Drugs lead to a different kind of productivity, not less of it.

[Take the Power back]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:50 PM
Uh, bob marley died from cancer <_<

Yes, he did. But, wasn&#39;t it cancer on his foot, from a chronic toe injury?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Take the Power back+Mar 28 2004, 11:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Take the Power back @ Mar 28 2004, 11:53 AM)
Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 03:50 PM
Uh, bob marley died from cancer <_<

Yes, he did. But, wasn&#39;t it cancer on his foot, from a chronic toe injury? [/b]
I believe so, but he refused surgery becuase of his Rastafarian beliefs. It is possible that drugs had a hand in causing his cancer, but there is no way to prove that. His religion killed him. I doubt that artists are unable to make music without drugs. There are plenty of clean musicians. I do not listen to them anyways, and good music is all a matter of opinion. I think that the Beetles would have been just as good if not better without drugs.


so what who cares if peope die from enjoying drugs, they choose to take them

NO&#33;&#33;&#33; It is the responsibility of society to help people to make the right decisions in life. We need to educate them, and keep these harmful substances out of their hands&#33; It is our responsibility to do everything we possibly can to ensure that everyone lives as long, healthy, and productive of a life as possible. I CARE IF PEOPLE DIE TAKING DRUGS&#33;&#33;&#33;

[cubist]

fine you care, but it is societies responsibility, to provide edcucation and health and to ensure that its people are being payed correctly so thatthey can afford housing/clothes bills, it is under no obligation to try and restrict free choice on drug use. it is under obligation to crack down on illegal activities but the black market is that for a reason yeah.

you can&#39;t stop the vblack market with oppressing people

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:03 AM
I believe so, but he refused surgery becuase of his Rastafarian beliefs. It is possible that drugs had a hand in causing his cancer, but there is no way to prove that. His religion killed him. I doubt that artists are unable to make music without drugs. There are plenty of clean musicians. I do not listen to them anyways, and good music is all a matter of opinion. I think that the Beetles would have been just as good if not better without drugs.
Actually, I don&#39;t think it had to do with his beliefs, I believe he just wanted to finish his US tour. Heard something about his manager telling him to delay surgery for that.

As for the Beatles, compare Helter Skelter, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Yellow Submarine to She Loves You, and you&#39;ll begin to undertsand how much drugs made a difference. I&#39;m sure there are lots of talented "clean" musicians, I&#39;m just saying you can&#39;t say drugs don&#39;t have a role. They lead to different, and sometimes better, form of music. It&#39;s not a bad thing that any of them did drugs.


NO&#33;&#33;&#33; It is the responsibility of society to help people to make the right decisions in life. We need to educate them, and keep these harmful substances out of their hands&#33; It is our responsibility to do everything we possibly can to ensure that everyone lives as long, healthy, and productive of a life as possible. I CARE IF PEOPLE DIE TAKING DRUGS&#33;&#33;&#33;

So teach them. That&#39;s all you can do. Just like you can&#39;t ban people from not using condoms, you can&#39;t ban them from taking drugs. All the money that goes into catching them and fucking their lives over, could go into helping them by providing rehab and education. It should be a mandatory thing, kinda like sex education is mandatory, we give them mandatory drug education from an early age.

Not telling them not to do it, just like we don&#39;t promote abstinence cause we know they just wouldn&#39;t listen. Instead, teaching them how to do it, and what to watch out for. What the effects are. That way, they can make an educated decision.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Mar 28 2004, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Mar 28 2004, 03:30 PM)
The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 10:50 AM
The Epic struggle :rolleyes: What world do you live in...this is the internet...and the only epic struggle you are going through is your sexuality&#33;&#33;&#33; We all know you want my ass&#33;&#33;&#33;
Do you see any larger arguements between two people who are political polar opposites? You dont need to take everything so out of context. In the real world, this arguement means nothing, but here on Che-lives, we tend to take over threads argueing with each other. [/b]
i noticed you didnt deny that you wanted my ass...

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

i noticed you didnt deny that you wanted my ass...

I am pretending that I didn&#39;t hear that, talk like that hurts my dainty virgin ears. This is not a porn site. Please keep the talk clean.


As for the Beatles, compare Helter Skelter, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds and Yellow Submarine to She Loves You, and you&#39;ll begin to undertsand how much drugs made a difference. I&#39;m sure there are lots of talented "clean" musicians, I&#39;m just saying you can&#39;t say drugs don&#39;t have a role. They lead to different, and sometimes better, form of music. It&#39;s not a bad thing that any of them did drugs.

Music is all a matter of opinion. I would say there is no such thing as good or bad music, there is nothing that everyone likes, and there is nothing that no one likes. I for one, happen to like listening to William Hung. No drugs there. ;)


Not telling them not to do it, just like we don&#39;t promote abstinence cause we know they just wouldn&#39;t listen. Instead, teaching them how to do it, and what to watch out for. What the effects are. That way, they can make an educated decision.

Education isn&#39;t enough, something needs to be actively done to keep drugs out of people&#39;s hands. Manditory drug education is a great idea, but notice I didn&#39;t mention absolutely fucking up peoples lives? The only people that I think who deserve to have their lives fucked with are the drug dealers who try to get other people to use drugs. I think that the people who are caught with drugs should be sent to manditory rehab and a few weeks in a boot camp educational type setting to try and help these people get their lives on the right track. I think that keeping people in prison for years because of a drug charge is quite unnessessary.


fine you care, but it is societies responsibility, to provide edcucation and health and to ensure that its people are being payed correctly so thatthey can afford housing/clothes bills, it is under no obligation to try and restrict free choice on drug use. it is under obligation to crack down on illegal activities but the black market is that for a reason yeah.

No, drug use should not be free choise, the only drugs that people should use are ones that are beneficial to the health and well-being of society.


you can&#39;t stop the vblack market with oppressing people

You can stop the black market with a decent police force.

[Guest1]

Well, I said education, not "re-education". Frankly, mandatory rehab sounds scary.

I&#39;m trying hard to get through to you, but believe me, it isn&#39;t easy. Let me try another angle: if you can&#39;t decide if one kind of music is better than another, then how can you decide that the mormon lifestyle is better than drugs?

Aren&#39;t alot of the pop and mainstream rap groups much more damaging to a Socialist society?

[Guest1]

You can stop the black market with a decent police force.
No, you can&#39;t. If there&#39;s one thing I know about Leninists, they&#39;re good at rewriting history :lol: Check out prohibition, that created a huge police force. Then tell me police can stop the black market.

Actually, usually, the more laws, the more crime. And not just cause there are more illegal things, either :P

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 28 2004, 01:08 PM
Well, I said education, not "re-education". Frankly, mandatory rehab sounds scary.

I&#39;m trying hard to get through to you, but believe me, it isn&#39;t easy. Let me try another angle: if you can&#39;t decide if one kind of music is better than another, then how can you decide that the mormon lifestyle is better than drugs?

Aren&#39;t alot of the pop and mainstream rap groups much more damaging to a Socialist society?
I do not advocate a Mormon lifestyle. I do not feel that it is too much to ask for society to remain drug free. Rap music cannot not destroy people&#39;s lives the way drugs do. I feel that any form of music is a genuine expression of ones creativity and individuality, but I feel that the mainstream groups today do not give a positive message to society as most tend to be reactionary. Any music is acceptable so long as it does not contain racist/sexist lyrics, or glorify prostitution, drugs, killing, or greed. Since I do not feel that is acceptable for people to even speak such ideas, I do not think it is necessary to impose any additional restrictions on music that would not already be on speech anyways.


Check out prohibition, that created a huge police force. Then tell me police can stop the black market.

Actually, usually, the more laws, the more crime. And not just cause there are more illegal things, either

I would disagree, so long as you can enforce the laws you pass, then crime will go down. The prohibition did not work in American because organized crime was simply to widespread for the primative police force to handle. However, the prohibition does work pretty well in Islamic countries.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 05:03 PM
I am pretending that I didn&#39;t hear that, talk like that hurts my dainty virgin ears. This is not a porn site. Please keep the talk clean.
But all I dream about is your big fat juicy........intelligent conversation. I desire it...all those long nights we could spend together, you telling me my opinion, me staring envyously into your feep, glazed eyes....oh what fun we could have together...and the sex...my god the sex, long hot, passionate sex sex sex...me, you and a bottle of non alcholoic champagne...can you not jsut imagine it......go on, imagine it...you know you want too...

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 02:11 PM
me, you and a bottle of non alcholoic champagne...can you not jsut imagine it......go on, imagine it...you know you want too...
:lol: :lol: :lol: That deserves a spot in my sig...

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Mar 28 2004, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Mar 28 2004, 06:23 PM)
The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 02:11 PM
me, you and a bottle of non alcholoic champagne...can you not jsut imagine it......go on, imagine it...you know you want too...
:lol: :lol: :lol: That deserves a spot in my sig... [/b]
im honoured...again&#33;

You still didnt deny it... ;)

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 12:18 PM
I would disagree, so long as you can enforce the laws you pass, then crime will go down. The prohibition did not work in American because organized crime was simply to widespread for the primative police force to handle. However, the prohibition does work pretty well in Islamic countries.
lol, like I said, rewriting history. Have you ever been to an Islamic country? I was born in Saudi Arabia, and I can tell you, the only thing that&#39;s different is more people are executed for drug use. It&#39;s not like there&#39;s less drugs.

Oh, and can you guess what message I got from your use of theocracies as an example of how your policies would work? :P

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

You still didnt deny it...

Im pretending I didn&#39;t hear it...pervert.


lol, like I said, rewriting history. Have you ever been to an Islamic country? I was born in Saudi Arabia, and I can tell you, the only thing that&#39;s different is more people are executed for drug use. It&#39;s not like there&#39;s less drugs.

I was thinking more along the lines of Iranian style prohibitionism, but can you back that up with any data?


Oh, and can you guess what message I got from your use of theocracies as an example of how your policies would work?

I was merely citing an example, not giving saying how they would work...

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 01:41 PM
Well, who determines what drugs are to be used for? Ecstasy seems to me obviously designed specifically for dancing and meeting people.. Peyote, mushrooms, Lsd.. What are they intended for sparko?

For entering the spirit world? Or just getting high? Marijuana? We all know it does have medicinal uses but since it is a natural herb, how can it be misused? What the shit are you talking about? You loon.. Let&#39;s not face it, let&#39;s see some evidence of your narrow minded assertions..

Let us remember the literary greats, all or most of whom were absolutley faced on one thing or another, absinthe or opium or morphine or a combo.. The musicians, the artists whose great works were often inspired by little jaunts into the surreal.. Abusers were they? Unproductive?

What a bunch of arse&#33; :lol:
Obviously not you. If a person needs a drug like ecstacy to dance and meet people then they obviously have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Drugs like peyote, mushrooms, lsd or ecstacy have absolutely no use other than to get high......and you think that&#39;s good??? What planet are you on???? Have you seen people when they&#39;re on a bad trip or arrive DOA in the emergency room??? Marijuana is a weed not an herb and yes it can be misused......ever seen the people that all they do is smoke???

As for the literary and musical greats.......many of them died of drug overdoses......and many artists never used drugs to be creative. Do you think that dying young is a good thing? Whether you agree or not......and I don&#39;t particularly care......but they were abusers seeing as they needed drugs to face their problems.

Heroin and morphine have many medicinal purposes but also have bad side effects as well so what good do they do if they&#39;re not used for the purpose they are intended for?? What about the diseases caused by sharing needles.......something heroin, coke and speed addicts are known for? What about the innocent people that suffer because of these addictions? Increased crime and families that suffer because the abuser would rather spend their money on drugs than food. What about the babies born to addicts, should they suffer as well? Have you ever seen heroin/crack babies?? Obviously not. What about the cost to the health care system?? <_<

[Guest1]

Well, let&#39;s see if I can find you some evidence:


Illicit drugs: despite substantial interdiction efforts, Iran remains a key transshipment point for Southwest Asian heroin to Europe; domestic narcotics consumption remains a persistent problem and Iranian press reports estimate at least 1.8 million drug users in the country.

http://isaa.berkeley.edu/iranstats.htm

How&#39;s that for you?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

So? Thats still quite lower then ours. I doubt its possible to nail every single drug abuser, esp. in a place like Iran. Try checking out Cuba&#39;s stats?

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 10:43 PM
If a person needs a drug like ecstacy to dance and meet people then they obviously have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Drugs like peyote, mushrooms, lsd or ecstacy have absolutely no use other than to get high......and you think that&#39;s good??? What planet are you on????
I&#39;m on planet earth sweetie&#33; You should try it sometime, I&#39;m earthy, I&#39;m for the people, I&#39;m for freedom... That&#39;s essentialy what this debate is about..

I don&#39;t beleive the people are some dangerous and foolish organism that needs to be told how to behave, needs guidance from people like you...
You show your ignorance too readily, your reactionary stance is so outmoded, your coming over like Nancy Reagan circa 87&#39;..

Where have you been for the last fifteen years? Crack babies?
You blame drugs for such complex issue&#39;s.. You fail to see the bigger picture, poverty, degradation, dissatisfaction...

I&#39;ve had bad trips, I&#39;ve sat around smoking hash all day, I&#39;ve taken E&#39;s, whizz, coke, mushrooms and I even hit a couple of rocks in my time - I&#39;m not addicted, I&#39;m lucid - What the fuck qualifies you to even comment? A bunch of eighties conservative rhetoric&#33;..

The artists and musicians I mentioned of course have natural talent and as midnightmaruader says these things are subjective.. However it is a fact that mind expanding drugs have influenced and informed almost every culture you can think of.. And they will continue to do so...
I :mellow:

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I&#39;m on planet earth sweetie&#33; You should try it sometime, I&#39;m earthy, I&#39;m for the people, I&#39;m for freedom... That&#39;s essentialy what this debate is about..

I too am for the people, not the individual, but for the people as a whole.


I don&#39;t beleive the people are some dangerous and foolish organism that needs to be told how to behave, needs guidance from people like you...
You show your ignorance too readily, your reactionary stance is so outmoded, your coming over like Nancy Reagan circa 87&#39;..

PEOPLE are not all foolish organisms. No matter what the laws are, some people are always going to do the right thing. However, not EVERYONE is on their way to becoming the next Einstein. I can&#39;t think of anyone in American politics who was truely prohibitionist, but I&#39;ve heard that Krushchev tried to get vodka banned, a move that would have greatly strengthened a nation plauged by alcoholism.


I&#39;ve had bad trips, I&#39;ve sat around smoking hash all day, I&#39;ve taken E&#39;s, whizz, coke, mushrooms and I even hit a couple of rocks in my time - I&#39;m not addicted, I&#39;m lucid - What the fuck qualifies you to even comment? A bunch of eighties conservative rhetoric&#33;..

The artists and musicians I mentioned of course have natural talent and as midnightmaruader says these things are subjective.. However it is a fact that mind expanding drugs have influenced and informed almost every culture you can think of.. And they will continue to do so...

Drugs are about as great of a way to "expand your mind", as strapping a bomb to your head. I&#39;m sure there are some "mind expanding" effects there. I guarantee you though, your body is worse off then it would be without ever taking those drugs.

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 12:06 PM
not EVERYONE is on their way to becoming the next Einstein.



Not EVERYONE has the choice to become a mathmatic genious, not EVERYONE wants to do that.. EVERYONE is different and that is what EVERYONE should celebrate....

PEOPLE can make their own descisions..

As for mind expansion, I guess it&#39;s something you&#39;ll never know...

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:34 PM
Im pretending I didn&#39;t hear it...pervert.
And you love me for it....

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Mar 29 2004, 02:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Anarchist Tension @ Mar 29 2004, 02:45 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 08:34 PM
Im pretending I didn&#39;t hear it...pervert.
And you love me for it.... [/b]
If there were a way to charge someone with sexual harrassment over the internet, I&#39;d do it...

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr: A serious question, who can a homophobic authoritarian claim to be anywhere close to left wing?

[sparky44]

Originally posted by Danton+Mar 29 2004, 07:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Danton @ Mar 29 2004, 07:22 AM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 10:43 PM
If a person needs a drug like ecstacy to dance and meet people then they obviously have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Drugs like peyote, mushrooms, lsd or ecstacy have absolutely no use other than to get high......and you think that&#39;s good??? What planet are you on????
I&#39;m on planet earth sweetie&#33; You should try it sometime, I&#39;m earthy, I&#39;m for the people, I&#39;m for freedom... That&#39;s essentialy what this debate is about..

I don&#39;t beleive the people are some dangerous and foolish organism that needs to be told how to behave, needs guidance from people like you...
You show your ignorance too readily, your reactionary stance is so outmoded, your coming over like Nancy Reagan circa 87&#39;..

Where have you been for the last fifteen years? Crack babies?
You blame drugs for such complex issue&#39;s.. You fail to see the bigger picture, poverty, degradation, dissatisfaction...

I&#39;ve had bad trips, I&#39;ve sat around smoking hash all day, I&#39;ve taken E&#39;s, whizz, coke, mushrooms and I even hit a couple of rocks in my time - I&#39;m not addicted, I&#39;m lucid - What the fuck qualifies you to even comment? A bunch of eighties conservative rhetoric&#33;..

The artists and musicians I mentioned of course have natural talent and as midnightmaruader says these things are subjective.. However it is a fact that mind expanding drugs have influenced and informed almost every culture you can think of.. And they will continue to do so...
I :mellow: [/b]
You don&#39;t see the big picture at all........many babies are born to crack/cocaine/heroin addicted mothers everyday. Where have I been for the last 15 years??? Working in the healthcare field......I&#39;ve seen first hand what drugs do to people and to innocent babies.....what right do these women have to inflict their addictions on an unborn baby?? The effects of cocaine on the fetus may include but isn&#39;t limited to growth defects, intestinal abnormalities, hyperactivity, uncontrollable trembling and learning problems. Other problems include premature delivery of the fetus, premature detatchment of the placenta, hypertension and stillbirth. If the newborn makes it this far then it is then at increased risk of SIDS.

I don&#39;t fail to see the bigger picture......I do know that poverty and degredation is a part of the problem but the poor aren&#39;t the only group to use drug......the wealthy also use them as well.

Your trips couldn&#39;t have been too bad.....you&#39;re still alive to talk about them. Cocaine and Ecstasy......have been known to cause anyeurisms and cardiac arrest.......maybe that&#39;s the only thing that will teach you that drugs aren&#39;t good for you. <_<

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:09 PM
MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr: A serious question, who can a homophobic authoritarian claim to be anywhere close to left wing?
I am not homophobic, and what does authoritarianism have anything to do with left/right wing? Perhaps by your stanards libertarians are left wing?

[elijahcraig]

Music is all a matter of opinion. I would say there is no such thing as good or bad music, there is nothing that everyone likes, and there is nothing that no one likes. I for one, happen to like listening to William Hung. No drugs there.

That’s ridiculous. By your standards, Britney Spears is no better than Stravinsky. Nonsense. Music is an art form, and all art forms can be perfected.

Read some Joyce or Aristotle (Poetics) to understand what good art is versus the idiotic reductionism of your views.

I don’t think drugs are a must in music however. Drugs often dull an artist. Take Coleridge. He could have produced much more had he not been an opium addict. The same for Poe. Burroughs as well.

Joyce drank alcohol and considered alcoholism an asset. Whether you disagree or not, the alcohol certainly didn’t hurt him any.


Education isn&#39;t enough, something needs to be actively done to keep drugs out of people&#39;s hands. Manditory drug education is a great idea, but notice I didn&#39;t mention absolutely fucking up peoples lives? The only people that I think who deserve to have their lives fucked with are the drug dealers who try to get other people to use drugs. I think that the people who are caught with drugs should be sent to manditory rehab and a few weeks in a boot camp educational type setting to try and help these people get their lives on the right track. I think that keeping people in prison for years because of a drug charge is quite unnessessary.

Your views on drugs are highly archaic. You sound like Jerry Falwell for god sakes&#33; High strung nonsense is all I am hearing from you.


No, drug use should not be free choise, the only drugs that people should use are ones that are beneficial to the health and well-being of society.

Marijuana is beneficial to society. Cocaine benefited certain musicians. Heroin benefited certain artists. Alcohol others.

There is no absolute determination of this, and if there were it would not matter because you have no right to control what people do.

Your views are representative of the Communist Church of (Revised and traditionalized) Marx. You could join the Moral Majority if you just changed a few of your economic views most likely.


You can stop the black market with a decent police force.

So you want a “well policed state” as US officials called many third world countries they dominated for profit? That’s just crazy.


I do not advocate a Mormon lifestyle.

Right…nonetheless, you’re going in my “Possible Advocates for the Mormon Lifestyle” Notebook.


I do not feel that it is too much to ask for society to remain drug free.

Yes it is…and YOU”RE not asking: you’re making.


Rap music cannot not destroy people&#39;s lives the way drugs do.

False.


I feel that any form of music is a genuine expression of ones creativity and individuality, but I feel that the mainstream groups today do not give a positive message to society as most tend to be reactionary.

Artists have no obligation to “give a positive message to society”, and their artistic merit is certainly not based upon it. Mainstream groups today are not going to be labeled ART by me.


Any music is acceptable so long as it does not contain racist/sexist lyrics, or glorify prostitution, drugs, killing, or greed.

Wrong again. ANY censorship on Art is wrong.


Since I do not feel that is acceptable for people to even speak such ideas, I do not think it is necessary to impose any additional restrictions on music that would not already be on speech anyways.

You’re a moron. Pure and simple.


I would disagree, so long as you can enforce the laws you pass, then crime will go down. The prohibition did not work in American because organized crime was simply to widespread for the primative police force to handle. However, the prohibition does work pretty well in Islamic countries.

Do you have proof of this or are you just speaking off the top of your head?

If true of Islamic countries, it is NOT because of laws being passed: it is because of the moral indoctrination in the culture and religion.


I was thinking more along the lines of Iranian style prohibitionism, but can you back that up with any data?

The country Amnesty International described as having the worst human rights record in the world? Right…that’s a utopia to model one’s own by.


Obviously not you. If a person needs a drug like ecstacy to dance and meet people then they obviously have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Drugs like peyote, mushrooms, lsd or ecstacy have absolutely no use other than to get high......and you think that&#39;s good??? What planet are you on???? Have you seen people when they&#39;re on a bad trip or arrive DOA in the emergency room??? Marijuana is a weed not an herb and yes it can be misused......ever seen the people that all they do is smoke???

Freud believed that pleasure was the initial instinct of man and that child birth was a mere coincidence. It seems to me you simply wish to restrict pleasure because it does not fit into a system of use. That’s idiotic.


As for the literary and musical greats.......many of them died of drug overdoses......and many artists never used drugs to be creative. Do you think that dying young is a good thing? Whether you agree or not......and I don&#39;t particularly care......but they were abusers seeing as they needed drugs to face their problems.

And what is your point? Artists have a goal of producing great art, not living long periods of time. Dying young has nothing to do with it.


Heroin and morphine have many medicinal purposes but also have bad side effects as well so what good do they do if they&#39;re not used for the purpose they are intended for?? What about the diseases caused by sharing needles.......something heroin, coke and speed addicts are known for? What about the innocent people that suffer because of these addictions? Increased crime and families that suffer because the abuser would rather spend their money on drugs than food. What about the babies born to addicts, should they suffer as well? Have you ever seen heroin/crack babies?? Obviously not. What about the cost to the health care system??

If the society did not downplay educating the populace about these problems, they would rapidly decline. Ignorance is the problem; not the drugs.


I too am for the people, not the individual, but for the people as a whole.

The individual is not subordinated to the collective under socialism. Read Wilde’s essay “The Soul of Man under Socialism”.


Drugs are about as great of a way to "expand your mind", as strapping a bomb to your head. I&#39;m sure there are some "mind expanding" effects there. I guarantee you though, your body is worse off then it would be without ever taking those drugs.

Expanding your mind has nothing to do with it. It is an experience. As Joyce said to his brother after a night of drinking and a barfight when his brother attacked him for his “behavior”: “I want to live&#33;”

[Guest1]

Wow elijah, welcome back. I hope you stay, cause I really think you could very well have alot to contribute.

Anyways, I agree, there&#39;s nothing wrong with unhealthy pleasures. Pleasure in and of itself can be a contribution to society. I don&#39;t understand why we have to justify something as basic as being allowed to have pleasure as you see fit, so long as you don&#39;t harm others.

[Urban Rubble]

Yes &#33; Good post Elijah. Nice to see ya back.

That was an excellent point, if MM changed his economic views he would be no different than your run of the mill moral wacko.

[Guest1]

MM, let&#39;s just say hypothetically that unprotected sex caused a hightened risk of contracting STD&#39;s such as AIDS. Let&#39;s say, hypothetically of course, that studies came out proving that there was a way to reduce that risk, though not eliminate it. Let&#39;s say this method was wearing this thing called a "condom".

Unfortunately though, in this hypothetical country, very few used this "condom".

There were two sides in Hypocountry:

One side, the crazy Bible-thumpers (or Little Red Book-thumpers if that&#39;s your flavour), said that the problem was sex. That sex was unproductive and worse, dangerous. That we need to replace it with healhty activities, like Bible reading and making test-tube babies.

The other side, the crazy libertarians, said the problem was the Bible-thumpers. They said that the draconian attitude towards sex was leading to an atmosphere where no child wants to ask their parents about sex. This lead to very few teenagers learning about this thing called a "condom".

Of course, no matter how many people said sex was a bad thing and how many laws the government passed against it, the teenagers did it anyways. That&#39;s the nature of being a teenager.

They proposed that, instead of living in a fantasy land where we think teenagers won&#39;t be doing it, we accept that they inevitably will. At least the majority will.

So, what was their solution? Embrace it. Realize it is a choice of the indiviual, and that the only thing the state or parents can do is try to help by providing education about it. Pass out free "condoms" to encourage them to lower the spread of diseases like AIDS.

Unfortunately, to this day, the Bible-thumpers still control Hypocountry. Sex still happens, of course, but it&#39;s been driven underground. The "condoms" are sometimes used, but rarely. Why? Because education about them is non-existant.

What&#39;s the worst thing of all? After contracting AIDS because of a lack of knowledge, a sex-user risks a 15 year jail-term for having one bang. After that, a sex-user still pays for that hour of pleasure, because sex is still the only crime in Hypocountry that carries with it a suspension of the right to vote.

[Danton]

Thank&#39;s for putting things more succintley than I ever could Elijah - a defect of a drug addled mind..

Sparky, so your wishing I have an aneurysm now?
Well if I do at least I&#39;ll know I had a fucking great time, Iv&#39;e lived... Iv&#39;e seen and felt things you&#39;ll never beleive or understand.. And I wouldn&#39;t change a thing... :)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Mar 29 2004, 08:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Mar 29 2004, 08:13 PM)
Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 29 2004, 02:45 PM

[email protected] 28 2004, 08:34 PM
Im pretending I didn&#39;t hear it...pervert.
And you love me for it....
If there were a way to charge someone with sexual harrassment over the internet, I&#39;d do it... [/b]
You are such a looser.

[Guest1]

Does that metaphor adequately explain why you&#39;re draconian distopia will never work, midnightmarauder?

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 07:01 AM
Thank&#39;s for putting things more succintley than I ever could Elijah - a defect of a drug addled mind..

Sparky, so your wishing I have an aneurysm now?
Well if I do at least I&#39;ll know I had a fucking great time, Iv&#39;e lived... Iv&#39;e seen and felt things you&#39;ll never beleive or understand.. And I wouldn&#39;t change a thing... :)
Now now Danton I never said that I wish that on you. Who said I haven&#39;t had a great time in life. I&#39;ve seen and felt things in my life and lived to talk about them....so don&#39;t be patronizing and tell me what I have or have not seen or felt.

I must have angered the Karma Gods and you&#39;re my punishment&#33;&#33; <_<

[truthaddict11]

good post elijahcraig. I would also add that MM seems not only sounds like Jerry Falwell but George Bush&#39;s old drug tsar William Bennet, a man who advocated public executions of drug dealers.

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 12:49 PM
I must have angered the Karma Gods and you&#39;re my punishment&#33;&#33; <_<
You love me really, anyway I&#39;m saying that I have experienced great things ..On acid in particular, and indeed awful things.. People&#39;s heads turning into chess pieces, layers of the earth moving under my feet.. The symmetrical nature of everything.. No computer game or film can give that, they were deeply moving experiences and I feel they gave me inspiration in my work and helped me tolerate others and indeed helped shaped my very outlook... I don&#39;t think it is for everyone, only headstrong explorers of inner space..

I also have friends that have suffered a lot because of drug use, A close friend of mine took his own life whilst on ecstasy but I would never blame a chemical substance for that or any social ills... If I want to poison my body with cigerettes or alchohol or ether or whatever, that&#39;s my business and mine alone..

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 30 2004, 06:41 AM
MM, let&#39;s just say hypothetically that unprotected sex caused a hightened risk of contracting STD&#39;s such as AIDS. Let&#39;s say, hypothetically of course, that studies came out proving that there was a way to reduce that risk, though not eliminate it. Let&#39;s say this method was wearing this thing called a "condom".

Unfortunately though, in this hypothetical country, very few used this "condom".

There were two sides in Hypocountry:

One side, the crazy Bible-thumpers (or Little Red Book-thumpers if that&#39;s your flavour), said that the problem was sex. That sex was unproductive and worse, dangerous. That we need to replace it with healhty activities, like Bible reading and making test-tube babies.

The other side, the crazy libertarians, said the problem was the Bible-thumpers. They said that the draconian attitude towards sex was leading to an atmosphere where no child wants to ask their parents about sex. This lead to very few teenagers learning about this thing called a "condom".

Of course, no matter how many people said sex was a bad thing and how many laws the government passed against it, the teenagers did it anyways. That&#39;s the nature of being a teenager.

They proposed that, instead of living in a fantasy land where we think teenagers won&#39;t be doing it, we accept that they inevitably will. At least the majority will.

So, what was their solution? Embrace it. Realize it is a choice of the indiviual, and that the only thing the state or parents can do is try to help by providing education about it. Pass out free "condoms" to encourage them to lower the spread of diseases like AIDS.

Unfortunately, to this day, the Bible-thumpers still control Hypocountry. Sex still happens, of course, but it&#39;s been driven underground. The "condoms" are sometimes used, but rarely. Why? Because education about them is non-existant.

What&#39;s the worst thing of all? After contracting AIDS because of a lack of knowledge, a sex-user risks a 15 year jail-term for having one bang. After that, a sex-user still pays for that hour of pleasure, because sex is still the only crime in Hypocountry that carries with it a suspension of the right to vote.
There are other factors such as culture and welfare in this. It is entirely possible to have no condoms at all and for AIDS to be non-existent. The problem is that people have sex with those they don&#39;t know. In our countries people have sex with others even though they know very well about STDs, I have done it myself, its part of the culture we have.

In the past this kind of &#39;draconian&#39; attitude towards sex existed and it did prevent people from having sex so readily as they do nowadays. The problem now in many countries is that there exists a &#39;draconian&#39; attitude towards sex amongst those who control the distribution of things like condoms but amongst the populace exists an entirely different attitude.

But, an example of a country that mirrors the past is China, although it is changing. In China masses of the populace have puritanical views on sex and so things like AIDS are not much of a problem. In Thailand on the other hand there is a more liberal attitude towards sex however they have educated their population well and provided contraceptives so there is little AIDS problem.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by Danton+Mar 30 2004, 03:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Danton @ Mar 30 2004, 03:25 PM)
[email protected] 30 2004, 12:49 PM
I must have angered the Karma Gods and you&#39;re my punishment&#33;&#33; <_<
You love me really, anyway I&#39;m saying that I have experienced great things ..On acid in particular, and indeed awful things.. People&#39;s heads turning into chess pieces, layers of the earth moving under my feet.. The symmetrical nature of everything.. No computer game or film can give that, they were deeply moving experiences and I feel they gave me inspiration in my work and helped me tolerate others and indeed helped shaped my very outlook... I don&#39;t think it is for everyone, only headstrong explorers of inner space..

I also have friends that have suffered a lot because of drug use, A close friend of mine took his own life whilst on ecstasy but I would never blame a chemical substance for that or any social ills... If I want to poison my body with cigerettes or alchohol or ether or whatever, that&#39;s my business and mine alone.. [/b]
Dillusions of grandeur?? That&#39;s okay.....you&#39;re allowed. I&#39;ve been there.......done that and even got the sweatshirt. Do you think I have never done drugs in my life??? Sure I have......and I&#39;ve lived to talk about it. If a person wants to hurt their own body that&#39;s one thing but when they hurt others then I draw the line. And don&#39;t think that suicide doesn&#39;t hurt others......the act itself is entirely selfish and hurts everyone around that person. Same with alcohol and tobacco......alcohol in moderation is fine it won&#39;t hurt you......but what about alcohol abuse?? What about when that drinker gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone?? As for tobacco......I&#39;m sure you know about the effects of second hand smoke on the nonsmoker. You may want to hurt yourself but what about others around you?? Ever seen someone dying of lung cancer?? They can&#39;t breathe.....and oxygen won&#39;t help them. What about the other cancers and diseases that smoking causes?? Alcohol and tobacco kill more people every year in America than illicit drugs and murder. But if you want to kill yourself there are much faster ways than smoking. ;)

[elijahcraig]

If a person wants to hurt their own body that&#39;s one thing but when they hurt others then I draw the line. And don&#39;t think that suicide doesn&#39;t hurt others......the act itself is entirely selfish and hurts everyone around that person. Same with alcohol and tobacco......alcohol in moderation is fine it won&#39;t hurt you......but what about alcohol abuse?? What about when that drinker gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone??

Who is saying alcohol abuse is good? Other than James Joyce.


As for tobacco......I&#39;m sure you know about the effects of second hand smoke on the nonsmoker. You may want to hurt yourself but what about others around you?? Ever seen someone dying of lung cancer?? They can&#39;t breathe.....and oxygen won&#39;t help them. What about the other cancers and diseases that smoking causes?? Alcohol and tobacco kill more people every year in America than illicit drugs and murder. But if you want to kill yourself there are much faster ways than smoking.

You’ve got to die someday. As the Nihilist says.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Music is all a matter of opinion. I would say there is no such thing as good or bad music, there is nothing that everyone likes, and there is nothing that no one likes. I for one, happen to like listening to William Hung. No drugs there.

That’s ridiculous. By your standards, Britney Spears is no better than Stravinsky. Nonsense. Music is an art form, and all art forms can be perfected.

That is exactly what I believe. Good music is what ever you want it to be. A person who enjoys Britney Spears is no more gifted then someone who enjoys Stavinsky, it is all a matter of taste.


Read some Joyce or Aristotle (Poetics) to understand what good art is versus the idiotic reductionism of your views.

The only prerequisite to art being "good" is that someone likes it, even if it is only the singer/composer.


I don’t think drugs are a must in music however. Drugs often dull an artist. Take Coleridge. He could have produced much more had he not been an opium addict. The same for Poe. Burroughs as well.

Poe died of an overdose in a gutter, died at far too young an age. I assure you that however gifted these artists were, they would have been better without the drug addiction, but in any case, I believe that the life of the artist is more important then that artist&#39;s work.



Education isn&#39;t enough, something needs to be actively done to keep drugs out of people&#39;s hands. Manditory drug education is a great idea, but notice I didn&#39;t mention absolutely fucking up peoples lives? The only people that I think who deserve to have their lives fucked with are the drug dealers who try to get other people to use drugs. I think that the people who are caught with drugs should be sent to manditory rehab and a few weeks in a boot camp educational type setting to try and help these people get their lives on the right track. I think that keeping people in prison for years because of a drug charge is quite unnessessary.

Your views on drugs are highly archaic. You sound like Jerry Falwell for god sakes&#33; High strung nonsense is all I am hearing from you.

Ancient people didn&#39;t mind drugs at all. Prohibitionism is a relatively new idea.



No, drug use should not be free choise, the only drugs that people should use are ones that are beneficial to the health and well-being of society.

Marijuana is beneficial to society. Cocaine benefited certain musicians. Heroin benefited certain artists. Alcohol others.

Absolutely not&#33; Those sound like the words of a heroine addict&#33; Hard drugs like heroine completely possess the will of those addicted to them, aside from the fact if a person is addicted to a drug like heroine, there is a pretty good chance that they&#39;ll be dead soon anyways.


There is no absolute determination of this, and if there were it would not matter because you have no right to control what people do.

That is the first thing you&#39;ve been correct on. If you start shooting up on heroine, MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr isn&#39;t going to magically appear and raid your drug stash. I am just saying how things would be if I had my way.


Your views are representative of the Communist Church of (Revised and traditionalized) Marx. You could join the Moral Majority if you just changed a few of your economic views most likely.

Aside from my beliefs that men and women are equal, that homosexuals deserve equal rights, that we should open our doors to immigrents, that religious propaganda should be banned, and a few other "minor" things, you might be right...



You can stop the black market with a decent police force.

So you want a “well policed state” as US officials called many third world countries they dominated for profit? That’s just crazy.

So you want policeless state where crime can run rampant, and just about no laws for anyone to break anyways. That&#39;s just crazy.



I do not advocate a Mormon lifestyle.

Right…nonetheless, you’re going in my “Possible Advocates for the Mormon Lifestyle” Notebook.

I don&#39;t care what you do with your “Possible Advocates for the Mormon Lifestyle Notebook".



I do not feel that it is too much to ask for society to remain drug free.

Yes it is…and YOU”RE not asking: you’re making.

Since when could you just ask people to start doing things that were best for society and everyone would do it? The world doesn&#39;t consist of angels.



Rap music cannot not destroy people&#39;s lives the way drugs do.

False.

Evidence?



I feel that any form of music is a genuine expression of ones creativity and individuality, but I feel that the mainstream groups today do not give a positive message to society as most tend to be reactionary.

Artists have no obligation to “give a positive message to society”, and their artistic merit is certainly not based upon it. Mainstream groups today are not going to be labeled ART by me.

Well look whose the "underground" coolguy? Does anyone really give a damn weather you label something art or not? Artists DO have an obligation to give a positive message to society, especially if they are getting paid by the state.



Any music is acceptable so long as it does not contain racist/sexist lyrics, or glorify prostitution, drugs, killing, or greed.

Wrong again. ANY censorship on Art is wrong.

Can you name one way that any of those things that I stated above are constructive to society?



I would disagree, so long as you can enforce the laws you pass, then crime will go down. The prohibition did not work in American because organized crime was simply to widespread for the primative police force to handle. However, the prohibition does work pretty well in Islamic countries.

Do you have proof of this or are you just speaking off the top of your head?

Saying that legalizing drugs will lead to less people using drugs is like saying that abolishing the minimum wage will increase the standards of living for workers (a claim conservatives often make).


If true of Islamic countries, it is NOT because of laws being passed: it is because of the moral indoctrination in the culture and religion.

If it takes indoctrination to keep a nation drug free then so be it&#33; Certain morals are positive to society such as the belief in socialism and equality. Culture is no excuse to use drugs.



I was thinking more along the lines of Iranian style prohibitionism, but can you back that up with any data?

The country Amnesty International described as having the worst human rights record in the world? Right…that’s a utopia to model one’s own by.

Agreeing with them on a single issue suddenly makes me just like the worlds worst human rights violater?



Obviously not you. If a person needs a drug like ecstacy to dance and meet people then they obviously have a problem that needs to be dealt with. Drugs like peyote, mushrooms, lsd or ecstacy have absolutely no use other than to get high......and you think that&#39;s good??? What planet are you on???? Have you seen people when they&#39;re on a bad trip or arrive DOA in the emergency room??? Marijuana is a weed not an herb and yes it can be misused......ever seen the people that all they do is smoke???

Freud believed that pleasure was the initial instinct of man and that child birth was a mere coincidence. It seems to me you simply wish to restrict pleasure because it does not fit into a system of use. That’s idiotic.

Pleasure is perfectly acceptable so long as it does not involve self destruction.



As for the literary and musical greats.......many of them died of drug overdoses......and many artists never used drugs to be creative. Do you think that dying young is a good thing? Whether you agree or not......and I don&#39;t particularly care......but they were abusers seeing as they needed drugs to face their problems.

And what is your point? Artists have a goal of producing great art, not living long periods of time. Dying young has nothing to do with it.

It should be society&#39;s resposiblity to ensure that everyone will live a long period of time&#33;



Heroin and morphine have many medicinal purposes but also have bad side effects as well so what good do they do if they&#39;re not used for the purpose they are intended for?? What about the diseases caused by sharing needles.......something heroin, coke and speed addicts are known for? What about the innocent people that suffer because of these addictions? Increased crime and families that suffer because the abuser would rather spend their money on drugs than food. What about the babies born to addicts, should they suffer as well? Have you ever seen heroin/crack babies?? Obviously not. What about the cost to the health care system??

If the society did not downplay educating the populace about these problems, they would rapidly decline. Ignorance is the problem; not the drugs.

If downplaying these problems would solve these problems, then why are you downplaying these problems?



I too am for the people, not the individual, but for the people as a whole.

The individual is not subordinated to the collective under socialism. Read Wilde’s essay “The Soul of Man under Socialism”.

Well guess what? I believe that the individual IS subordinate to the collective, wheather Wilde said so or not.



Drugs are about as great of a way to "expand your mind", as strapping a bomb to your head. I&#39;m sure there are some "mind expanding" effects there. I guarantee you though, your body is worse off then it would be without ever taking those drugs.

Expanding your mind has nothing to do with it. It is an experience. As Joyce said to his brother after a night of drinking and a barfight when his brother attacked him for his “behavior”: “I want to live&#33;”

There are plenty of experiences to have that are better then drunken bar fights...

[elijahcraig]

That is exactly what I believe. Good music is what ever you want it to be. A person who enjoys Britney Spears is no more gifted then someone who enjoys Stavinsky, it is all a matter of taste.

You are a plebian. Pure and simple. Doctor Stockmann would have you shot.

As I said, read Joyce on Art. Read Wilde. Read Renan. Read Blake. Read Aristotle and Aquinas.

Don’t let your views become integrated into the capitalist process of “anything goes.” Britney Spears is not art. She is a marketing scheme.

To compare her to Stravinsky is an offense which should be—instead of drug use or sex before marriage—punishable by death.


The only prerequisite to art being "good" is that someone likes it, even if it is only the singer/composer.

I think the prerequisite you defined is that of an essay or critical writing. A piece of art is not in any way measured by how many people like it. Blake was good art when he lived in poverty, and he is good now when many like him. It is a constant and absolute of the aesthetic.


Poe died of an overdose in a gutter, died at far too young an age. I assure you that however gifted these artists were, they would have been better without the drug addiction, but in any case, I believe that the life of the artist is more important then that artist&#39;s work.

What you think of the Artist (capitalized) is of no concern to the Artist. And has nothing to do with their view of life. To an Artist, a TRUE ARTIST, their life is being an Artist: as Nietzsche put it.


Ancient people didn&#39;t mind drugs at all. Prohibitionism is a relatively new idea.

Archaic in the sense that you rely on pseudo-Falwell theories to “protect” people from their own desires.


Absolutely not&#33; Those sound like the words of a heroine addict&#33; Hard drugs like heroine completely possess the will of those addicted to them, aside from the fact if a person is addicted to a drug like heroine, there is a pretty good chance that they&#39;ll be dead soon anyways.

Death is of no value in this question.

Take Eliott Smith. He could ONLY write good lyrics when hooked on heroin. When he came clean, he was no lyricist. So he started back again and wrote good lyrics. Then he died. The point to the Artist is to produce art.

As Joyce said, “Material gain is Spiritual death.” For the Artist.


I am just saying how things would be if I had my way.

That’s what I meant, obviously.


So you want policeless state where crime can run rampant, and just about no laws for anyone to break anyways. That&#39;s just crazy.

That is not what I said. It’s not either/or in relation to how much police/authority in the society. It’s not all or none.


I don&#39;t care what you do with your “Possible Advocates for the Mormon Lifestyle Notebook".

Prove it.


Since when could you just ask people to start doing things that were best for society and everyone would do it? The world doesn&#39;t consist of angels.

The leaders of this country (or any) have never or rarely ever done ANYTHING out of the good of society, laws etc. Law is always passed because of economic pressure or some threat to their power in order to ensure economic gain.

To assume the State has any “benevolent” qualities is to fall into a Fascist tendency of thought. Along with Plato, Aquinas, and many others who believe “top down” rule is the best way to “get things done.”


Evidence?


Rap music has increased gang imagery as a result of Big Business control of the hip hop genre. Capital strikes again&#33; Many have died as a result, and none while enjoying themselves on drugs (or at least not while they had bullet holes in their foreheads).


Well look whose the "underground" coolguy? Does anyone really give a damn weather you label something art or not? Artists DO have an obligation to give a positive message to society, especially if they are getting paid by the state.

That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever read, heard, or seen.

Unless you can give some reason for an Artist being controlled by the State, I’ll just assume you are continuing along in your Falwell Moral Majority Mormon line of “rational” thought.


Can you name one way that any of those things that I stated above are constructive to society?

Can you give me some reason why an Artist has any debt towards supporting “constructive” things to society?


Saying that legalizing drugs will lead to less people using drugs is like saying that abolishing the minimum wage will increase the standards of living for workers (a claim conservatives often make).

I don’t know where I said that.


If it takes indoctrination to keep a nation drug free then so be it&#33;

Fascist.


Certain morals are positive to society such as the belief in socialism and equality.

According to you, yes. According to others, no.

Equality in your brand is “forced” equality, or oppression.


Culture is no excuse to use drugs.

I have no idea what that means.


Agreeing with them on a single issue suddenly makes me just like the worlds worst human rights violater?

It makes you like them in the respect that you want to model a certain future idealized society on their repressive system.


Pleasure is perfectly acceptable so long as it does not involve self destruction.

That’s a personal opinion and has nothing to do with public life.


It should be society&#39;s resposiblity to ensure that everyone will live a long period of time&#33;

It should be the State’s responsibility to provide everyone with the equal and most available/best care and chance in life. What the individuals do in the society with these things is their own choice.

Society has no obligation because it does not act as an individual, and has no identity as a collective abstraction.


If downplaying these problems would solve these problems, then why are you downplaying these problems?

I’m not downplaying anything. I’m explaining to you the concept of individual rights.


Well guess what? I believe that the individual IS subordinate to the collective, wheather Wilde said so or not.

I think I gathered that, and you restating it does nothing for the debate.


There are plenty of experiences to have that are better then drunken bar fights...

Mere opinion. This has nothing to do with Joyce’s meaning.

[sparky44]

What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions?? Society does it&#39;s part when it makes laws and enforces them and provides rehabilitation for those suffering from alcohol and substance addiction. Now the individual needs to do their part.

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 05:27 PM
Dillusions of grandeur?? That&#39;s okay.....you&#39;re allowed. I&#39;ve been there.......done that and even got the sweatshirt. Do you think I have never done drugs in my life??? Sure I have......and I&#39;ve lived to talk about it. If a person wants to hurt their own body that&#39;s one thing but when they hurt others then I draw the line. And don&#39;t think that suicide doesn&#39;t hurt others......the act itself is entirely selfish and hurts everyone around that person. Same with alcohol and tobacco......alcohol in moderation is fine it won&#39;t hurt you......but what about alcohol abuse?? What about when that drinker gets behind the wheel of a car and kills someone?? As for tobacco......I&#39;m sure you know about the effects of second hand smoke on the nonsmoker. You may want to hurt yourself but what about others around you?? Ever seen someone dying of lung cancer?? They can&#39;t breathe.....and oxygen won&#39;t help them. What about the other cancers and diseases that smoking causes?? Alcohol and tobacco kill more people every year in America than illicit drugs and murder. But if you want to kill yourself there are much faster ways than smoking. ;)
I&#39;d kill myself at my own leisure if I wanted to thank&#39;s.. I think I&#39;ll stick around though just to annoy the likes of you.. The controllers, the restricters..The people who are afraid of freedom..

I don&#39;t beleive your alive, you probably live in a oxygyn chamber, your obsessive.. I bet your sofa is covered in plastic, do you wear surgical gloves to open doors? Is it safe cross the street? Everything is going to kill us, ban everything&#33; Then we&#39;ll be safe.. Talking to you is killing off my braincells faster than any drug I&#39;ve ever had...
:wacko:

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 12:18 PM
I&#39;d kill myself at my own leisure if I wanted to thank&#39;s.. I think I&#39;ll stick around though just to annoy the likes of you.. The controllers, the restricters..The people who are afraid of freedom..

I don&#39;t beleive your alive, you probably live in a oxygyn chamber, your obsessive.. I bet your sofa is covered in plastic, do you wear surgical gloves to open doors? Is it safe cross the street? Everything is going to kill us, ban everything&#33; Then we&#39;ll be safe.. Talking to you is killing off my braincells faster than any drug I&#39;ve ever had...
:wacko:
It takes a lot more than you to annoy the likes of me. I&#39;m not afraid of freedom, I embrace it but I&#39;m so tired of my hard earned tax dollars paying for the treatment/incarceration of people who insist on abusing/trafficking in drugs. I&#39;m not restrictive nor am I a controller but am tired of seeing the criminal/abuser given more rights than the innocent victim.

People like me are alive just to irritate people like you.......and if you didn&#39;t like it you wouldn&#39;t answer. And no my sofa isn&#39;t covered with plastic.....actually with 3 cats it has a lot of cat hair on it in between vacuumings. No surgical gloves to open doors......only when dealing with patients. Of course it&#39;s safe to cross the street......unless the person is like you and tries to cross a highway. Not everything will kill us......spoken like a truely clueless one.

Talking to me is making your brain work.......all the drugs you took is has already killed off the good brain cells you used to have. <_<

[God of Imperia]

Over what kind of drugs are we talking?

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 12:34 PM
I&#39;m so tired of my hard earned tax dollars paying for the treatment/incarceration of people
Now your talking ,why didn&#39;t you just say so.. It&#39;s your personal econmic situation that concerns you most, you don&#39;t give a fuck about a crack baby..

[Hampton]

I&#39;m not afraid of freedom, I embrace it but I&#39;m so tired of my hard earned tax dollars paying for the treatment/incarceration of people who insist on abusing/trafficking in drugs. I&#39;m not restrictive nor am I a controller but am tired of seeing the criminal/abuser given more rights than the innocent victim.

Ever stop to think the abuser is the victim?

[sparky44]

Originally posted by Danton+Mar 31 2004, 01:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Danton @ Mar 31 2004, 01:03 PM)
[email protected] 31 2004, 12:34 PM
I&#39;m so tired of my hard earned tax dollars paying for the treatment/incarceration of people
Now your talking ,why didn&#39;t you just say so.. It&#39;s your personal econmic situation that concerns you most, you don&#39;t give a fuck about a crack baby.. [/b]
Now that&#39;s not true.....it&#39;s terrible to see a baby suffer. Why should that baby suffer because the mother was too stupid to get off drugs when she found out she was pregnant.

My personal economic situation isn&#39;t my biggest concern but I would rather see my tax dollars go where they are needed most.

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 01:08 PM

I&#39;m not afraid of freedom, I embrace it but I&#39;m so tired of my hard earned tax dollars paying for the treatment/incarceration of people who insist on abusing/trafficking in drugs. I&#39;m not restrictive nor am I a controller but am tired of seeing the criminal/abuser given more rights than the innocent victim.

Ever stop to think the abuser is the victim?
I don&#39;t buy that argument......they choose to pick up that drink/drug. Then they continue to do it because they like the way it makes them feel. Did you ever listen to Darryl Strawberry&#39;s interview when they asked him about his drug addiction??

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Like where? &#39;Defence&#39;? Law Enforcement? Civil servant&#39;s paychecks?

I think looking after people (After all that&#39;s what drug users are) is more important than feeding &#39;the beast&#39;

-NoX

[Hampton]

Now that&#39;s not true.....it&#39;s terrible to see a baby suffer. Why should that baby suffer because the mother was too stupid to get off drugs when she found out she was pregnant.

Here in lies the truth though, you really don&#39;t give a fuck about a crack baby because you don&#39;t want to spend money on treating the babies mother to make sure she isn&#39;t on any drugs when she is carrying and has the child. Sure you&#39;ll feel bad when the baby dies because it&#39;s such an innocent life, but, you did nothing to prevent it from happening? You&#39;re a liar.


I don&#39;t buy that argument......they choose to pick up that drink/drug. Then they continue to do it because they like the way it makes them feel. Did you ever listen to Darryl Strawberry&#39;s interview when they asked him about his drug addiction??

So who is the so called "innocent victim"? If it&#39;s not the dealer and it&#39;s not the addict then it&#39;s, who you? And if you&#39;re really so tired of spending your "hard earned tax dollars" then talk about changing the laws and those who make them, not the people who are subjugated under them.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Now that&#39;s not true.....it&#39;s terrible to see a baby suffer. Why should that baby suffer because the mother was too stupid to get off drugs when she found out she was pregnant.

Here in lies the truth though, you really don&#39;t give a fuck about a crack baby because you don&#39;t want to spend money on treating the babies mother to make sure she isn&#39;t on any drugs when she is carrying and has the child. Sure you&#39;ll feel bad when the baby dies because it&#39;s such an innocent life, but, you did nothing to prevent it from happening? You&#39;re a liar.

Nonsence. A strict banning of drugs would ensure that everyone is drug free. No more crack babies then&#33; Saying that a baby died because Sparky44 didn&#39;t do anything about it, is like saying we fought WWII because you didn&#39;t assassinate Hitler. What people do is totally out of her control.



I don&#39;t buy that argument......they choose to pick up that drink/drug. Then they continue to do it because they like the way it makes them feel. Did you ever listen to Darryl Strawberry&#39;s interview when they asked him about his drug addiction??

So who is the so called "innocent victim"? If it&#39;s not the dealer and it&#39;s not the addict then it&#39;s, who you? And if you&#39;re really so tired of spending your "hard earned tax dollars" then talk about changing the laws and those who make them, not the people who are subjugated under them.

It would make much better sence to spend the tax dollers making sure that no one is able to use drugs in the first place, then hospitalizing crack babies won&#39;t be a problem.


Like where? &#39;Defence&#39;? Law Enforcement? Civil servant&#39;s paychecks?

I was thinking education, industrialization, science projects, the space program, and community projects such as parks, state TV stations, zoos, conservatories, public transit, the list can go on forever.

[Danton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 06:19 PM
Nonsence. A strict banning of drugs would ensure that everyone is drug free.
You silly bastard, illegal drugs are banned but people find ways to get them and no matter how draconian you get they will still find ways to get them...

Only, a black market is created, a large section of society becomes criminalized, the drugs aren&#39;t pure, gangsters earn huge profits.. And that&#39;s where the real problems start concerning drugs.. No war on drugs has ever worked in fact it generally makes the problem worse..

Sparky, I just can&#39;t be bothered with you anymore, your a lost cause..

[sparky44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 05:57 PM

Now that&#39;s not true.....it&#39;s terrible to see a baby suffer. Why should that baby suffer because the mother was too stupid to get off drugs when she found out she was pregnant.

Here in lies the truth though, you really don&#39;t give a fuck about a crack baby because you don&#39;t want to spend money on treating the babies mother to make sure she isn&#39;t on any drugs when she is carrying and has the child. Sure you&#39;ll feel bad when the baby dies because it&#39;s such an innocent life, but, you did nothing to prevent it from happening? You&#39;re a liar.


I don&#39;t buy that argument......they choose to pick up that drink/drug. Then they continue to do it because they like the way it makes them feel. Did you ever listen to Darryl Strawberry&#39;s interview when they asked him about his drug addiction??

So who is the so called "innocent victim"? If it&#39;s not the dealer and it&#39;s not the addict then it&#39;s, who you? And if you&#39;re really so tired of spending your "hard earned tax dollars" then talk about changing the laws and those who make them, not the people who are subjugated under them.
Lets get something straight here......the only person that can stop the addiction is the addict themselves. The rehab hospitals can help but the addict has to want to stop taking drugs in order to get off them. No court order can force someone to stop taking drugs if they don&#39;t want to stop. What do you propose I do......jail them for the duration of their pregnancy??? It doesn&#39;t work as a prisoner can get any drug they want in jail.

And yes I do give a damn about the drug addicted baby but I&#39;m tired of dealing with people that refuse to do anything for themselves. We educate them, treat them and set them up so that they don&#39;t have to go back to that life but that doesn&#39;t seem to be enough. I can&#39;t prevent people from making stupid choices......that&#39;s up to them. They claim to be adults......well then they need to act like one and realize that they are now responsible for another life besides their own.

Who are the innocent victims?? The biggest victims of this drug problem are the children. Children learn what they live and this is no way for a child to grow up. Society is the other victim.....we lose potentially productive members of society to drugs every year no matter how much education we give them. And don&#39;t tell me the information isn&#39;t out there because it is.

We have tough drug laws in this country but the police can&#39;t be everywhere......or have you forgotten that they&#39;re only human??? If we make them much tougher we would become a police state and that won&#39;t work. <_<