Putin .....

[seen_che]

Experts say that Putin did not winn the election fairly...
The other candidates where not all allowed to use television for there campains.
But you could see Putin on the television all the time....


:blink:

[Kez]

All the elecctions since the breakdown of the Soviet Union have been a complete sham throughout former Soviet countries, they are openly corrupt.
Despite the OSCE being a bourgeoise institution, they have good observations on what a joke the elections are.
http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2004/0.../03/2283_en.pdf (http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2004/03/2283_en.pdf)
Have a read about other CIS countries elections, they are much worse, and have resulted in blood being shed in protests.


The trouble is there are no workers party for the workers to turn to in the fraud situation, and hence why protests although frequent, have no leadership working for workers, so protests lead to nothing, for evidence see last 2 years elections in the caucauses. Let us not forget that only reason there was change in Georgia was because US imperialism wanted it that way...

[Saint-Just]

There are lots of workers parties in these countries, in a very loose sense. In Russia people who protested against the way the elections were run would often vote for the KPRF, but not enough people voted for them.

[Kez]

But these workers parties are flirting with market economy and reformism arent they? Ie their nature is not class independant are they? From my knowledge this isnt the case

However, there are 2 CP's in Russia (big ones), maybe there is a difference in them

I do know for a fact however, than in the caucauses, there isnt a workers party at all, and only in one of the states is there a functioning CP, and thats stalinist/reformist. We shall see where the old CP's go...

[seen_che]

Even if there where workers parties, they wouldent be treated fairly in the elections.
Even if people woted for them....... :blink:

[sh0cker]

Actually they could not see him all the time, because he didn't even lead campain, he just went on elections. And people really support him, so your talkings are un necesserily, while you are trying to oppose him, be aware that he is the only man who can really HELP Russia and bulit it up.

[Kez]

for who? the capitalist class

25% of russians are below the poverty line
the mafia runs the country

and you say he has helped?
He has done nothing for the workers, if the workers took control now, russia would be a real superpower within 10 years, now it cant even defend its imperialist interests in neighbouring countries, its relying on soviet gains to live on.

you talk complete dribble, "only man who can help" bullshit. Only force that can change for good is the working class, no-one else.

[cubist]

kez is right,

ukraine is the same controlled by the mafia aid is raided before orphenages get it,

putin is doing a job he is trying to restore former communist country into a capitalist economy and the more capitalism comes in the more the people that matter get left out just like in any other country where capitalism is in place. it is partly the failure of communisms fault that russia and the ukraine are in such a mess.

[Saint-Just]

But these workers parties are flirting with market economy and reformism arent they? Ie their nature is not class independant are they? From my knowledge this isnt the case

However, there are 2 CP's in Russia (big ones), maybe there is a difference in them

I do know for a fact however, than in the caucauses, there isnt a workers party at all, and only in one of the states is there a functioning CP, and thats stalinist/reformist. We shall see where the old CP's go...

Yes, you're right but if a reformist communist party cannot gain power then I do not think any can.


Even if there where workers parties, they wouldent be treated fairly in the elections.
Even if people woted for them.......

Yes, thats true they are not treated fairly in elections. It is difficult for them to gain votes when Putins government has all the means of the states in its hands to win the elections.

[Kez]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 18 2004, 05:09 PM

But these workers parties are flirting with market economy and reformism arent they? Ie their nature is not class independant are they? From my knowledge this isnt the case

However, there are 2 CP's in Russia (big ones), maybe there is a difference in them

I do know for a fact however, than in the caucauses, there isnt a workers party at all, and only in one of the states is there a functioning CP, and thats stalinist/reformist. We shall see where the old CP's go...

Yes, you're right but if a reformist communist party cannot gain power then I do not think any can.

I dont follow.

You mean there is no revolutionary path in Russia? I think there is, the reason there hasnt been a revolution in Russia now is because there is no marxist leadership which can give people the right answer. Upto now all parties have fed the people lies, and false promises of hope with the market economies. This must stop.

What you think?

Heres a news articles i just got on the election showing what a sham the election was, from a marxist point of view Putins Plebicite (http://www.marxist.com/Russia/putin_plebiscite.html)

[Saint-Just]

I do not mean to say there is no revolutionary path in Russia but that it is a very difficult path to hew. I think there are problems besides what leadership there is, such as how great a task it will be to raise people's consciousness in Russia. It seems to me that the Russian government has done a very good job in imbuing a lot of Russian people with a false consciousness. I think it is largely down to nationalism, that Putin, as a rabid national-chauvanist, represents all people's interests whether they be rich bourgeois of the poor working class.

[Kez]

yep, i agree.

And i also agree that it will be difficult for any marxist leadership to raise consiousness, but this is as you know why its called the struggle! :)

Through a workers organisation, with the benefits of having an organisation, printing literature, and patiently explaining, we will reach the stage where we can have a revolution, and reach our goal.

[MiniOswald]

I think putins hilarious, didnt he fire like his whole cabinet
hes been having the largest military shows since the end of the cold war.
Hes still bombing the crap out of checneya.
Hes Ex-KGB (explains most of it really)
did anyone see the meeting between Putin and Blair just after the iraq war.
Blair went to fix relations and said something like "come on, lets not have another cold war" to which Putin replies "we already are and Id advize you not to get britain involved!"
this man is tre funny!
in the elections which of the 2 Cps came 2nd to Putin with 13%?

[sh0cker]

Well, you can say so.

Putin is capitalist from some point of view. But do any one of you realise how strong Russian mafia is?
And do you understand who really Putin is except sticking on him?
He was on of chiefs in KGB, which means that he knows everything about mafia, what ever is going on there. And there is no other man who can achieve that knowledge, there is no man like him.

Look a little more realistic. Is there normal man, which is very religions, not drinking person, not mafia person, very smart person, whole past KGB works for him, strong leader (he had showen that).. And now again some one wnats to bring communisam and attact Putin, people that is immposible. There is no man who can replace him efficiently.

[Kez]

who the frigg is this muppet?

Look, Putin does not work for the interests of the working class, but only for the ruling class

As communnists we fight the ruling class, hence we fight putin.

[Urban Rubble]

What the guy is trying to say is this: Yes, a Communist revolution would be great, but, OPEN UP YOUR EYES ! That just is not possible at this point in Russia. Putin is a hell of alot better that the alternatives. I can't understand why some of you guys can't grasp the lesser of 2 evils thing. No, he isn't an ideal leader, but he's better than the feasible alternatives, so, we fight for the revolution, but still find some satisfaction that Putin is at least doing something right. The guy is cracking down on the mafia after all, and that, in my opinion, is of more importance in Russia that anything else. Since the breakdown of the Soviet Union the mafia has had an iron grip on that country.

[DSCH]

The Butcher of Chechnya is a KGB trained mass murderer. He's a Stalinist.

[Kez]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2004, 03:05 AM
What the guy is trying to say is this: Yes, a Communist revolution would be great, but, OPEN UP YOUR EYES ! That just is not possible at this point in Russia. Putin is a hell of alot better that the alternatives. I can't understand why some of you guys can't grasp the lesser of 2 evils thing. No, he isn't an ideal leader, but he's better than the feasible alternatives, so, we fight for the revolution, but still find some satisfaction that Putin is at least doing something right. The guy is cracking down on the mafia after all, and that, in my opinion, is of more importance in Russia that anything else. Since the breakdown of the Soviet Union the mafia has had an iron grip on that country.
Putin isnt better than the CP, which is an alternative...even the stalinist CP is much much better than Putin, i cant beleive people are suggesting putin is in anyway good.

Its because of capitalists like putin that there IS a mafia, and the mafia thrive under putin, they put him in power, theyre spending all their looted money now, and getting rid of dirty money.

Support Putin. Support Capitalism.
Fuck that

[Urban Rubble]

I don't "support Putin". I simply think that it could be a hell of alot worse.

[Kez]

well done kojack.

what great analysis, we could have worse than putin, so actually hes ok. hmmm

[seen_che]

:huh: Thats one of the problems in the elections no one was really GREAT