Originally posted by Comrade
[email protected] 17 2004, 06:28 AM
Saint Patrick Hero of Ireland, You don't know anything about him I know he was a Catholic but you have to admire they guy...Here is a history of Saint Patrick:
Saint Patrick (circa 373 - March 17, 461) is the patron saint of Ireland. He was born around 385 in Caledonia, probably at Kilpatrick. His parents were Calpurnius and Conchessa, who were Romans living in Britain. At the age of about fourteen, Patrick was captured and taken to Ireland as a slave. He escaped at the age of twenty and returned to Britain, reuniting with his parents and later becoming one of the first Christian missionaries to Ireland. He was one of the earliest writers to advocate the abolition of slavery. Taut several Celtic tribes to read and write, as well as being credidted for setting up Trinity College. THE THING HE DID THAT WAS WRONG WAS DESTROY THE DRUDIC PAGAN RELGION and have said to burn all copies of their history.
What do you think of Saint Patrick??
I'm afraid I shall have to be terribly pedantic about this as I do a variation on Celtic studies at university. You gave a beautiful summary of material that was considered fact about one hundred fifty years ago. However, times have changed, and our knowledge has progress. There are a number of points to be made:
1. Patrick did not convert Ireland. There were christians there long before, as Bishop Paulinus was dispatched to Ireland c. 431 from Rome to rule over the newley created episcopal see. According to Patrick's [Confessio he may have been in line to succeed to this bishopric, but he does not make it clear whether or not Paulinus still held the see, or if there had been others in between. Either way due to political reasons Patrick was unable to become bishop. [A quick aside - many believe that within Irish legend Patrick and Paulinus were combined, and that may be why people say that Patrick converted Ireland].
2. Patrick almost certainly did not die in 461. Almost all modern authorities the alternative date of 493 given in the most accurate Irisih annals is likely the correctly date. For a good recent discussion see David Dumville et al., Saint Patrick, A.D. 493-1993.
3. If he was a ROMAN, how could he have been born in Caledonia??? Caledonia was never incorporated into the Roman empire, and was only ever partially controlled under the generalship or Agricola between 80 and 84 AD, and under Septimius Severus (emperor 193-211) in c. 210 AD. Moreover, the Caledones seem to disappear from the historical record at the end of the third century, when the Picts - who appear to have been a larger coalition which incorporated the Caledones - emerged. Even then Patrick cannot have been a Pict, as the Picts were not christian, not literate, and not Latinate. Most suggestions are the Patrick was from Strathclyde - a region in northern England that stretched somewhat into south western Scotland - although BOZG is correct that he could equally have been from Wales or Cornwall.
4. He does not seem to have suggested 'abolition of slavery'. I assume that claim comes from the only extant text of his, other that the Confessio, namely the Letter to Coroticus. This letter does attack Coroticus, whoever he was (possibly Ceredig of Strathclyde, although there is some confusion as there is a Welsh ruler of the same name at roughly the same time), but it never suggests that all slavery should be abolished. Patrick merely asks Coroticus to return those people his troops took in a raid on Ireland. As such Patrick was asking for him and his troops to release only the Irishment the had taken; this is hardly a general movement to abolish slavery.
5. According to the Trinity College (http://www.tcd.ie/Communications/Facts/) website it was founded in 1592. Besides Dublin itself was founded by the vikings in the 830s.
6. As I have already noted, christianity had taken root in Ireland before Patrick, so he hardly destroyed the pagan religion single handedly. Also, how do you imagine he burnt 'all copies of their history'? Literacy was brought to Ireland with christianity, before then there is no evidence of Irish literacy; their entire 'history' was maintained orally, so it can hardly have been 'burnt'. Besides, even the earliest evidence of Irish vernacular literacy - ogham inscriptions - are carved in stone like runes, and are therefore impossible to burn, and very difficult to wipe out (and there is no evidence of any attempt to do this). Also it should be noted that the early Irish church was very willing to maintain older traditions, as evinced by later written records of echtrai, a non-christian set of tales relating to fantastic travels.
Sorry to come down so heavily on your history; I realise that you are only reporting popular tales, but it is really frustrating how little people know about the REAL Patrick who was far more interesting and enigmatic than the saintly tales the public know would suggest. If you want to get a real sense for the man go to this site (http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/patrick.html) which contains a translation of his Confessio which is a fascinating autobiographical text that gives us some great insights into Patrick as a man.