To: Mr. Zapatero

[HankMorgan]

Dear Mr. Zapatero,

Congratulations on your recent election victory over the crusader Prime
Minister Aznar. Perhaps some Moorish blood still courses through the
arteries of your country men.

It is not blood I wish to write you about. No it is faith, good faith.
Bringing your Spanish warriors home from Iraq is a fine start but it is
only a start. We at Al-Qaeda require show of good faith on your part.
We would like you to start with something small that requires you to
do nothing more than have Spanish law enforcement look the other way
when Allah's followers take the torch to Synagogues in your country.

If there is not adequate faith displayed in Spain we will stop the trains
again. I know we can count on you to do the right thing.

In Allah's name

Abu Dahdah

[Monty Cantsin]

where did you get that from?

[General A.A.Vlasov]

What is it? Is it the letter from one of the Al-Queida's leaders?

[redstar2000]

It is "humorous propaganda" from someone clearly disappointed at the outcome of the recent elections in Spain.

I think his disappointment is premature; he should wait until the Spanish lackeys are actually withdrawn before suggesting that the Spanish will "look the other way" while synagogues are burned.

Since the Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492 (interesting coincidence, that), I doubt if there are many synagogues to speak of in Spain anyway.

But here's a nice "long-range" projection: Spain was once a Muslim country, you know. Suppose they want it back? :unsure:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Danton]

Over my dead body..

Zapatero as a socialst was always going to pull out of Iraq, I wish he wasn't in such a hurry to announce it, giving critics reason to call it a knee-jerk reaction..

[HankMorgan]

redstar is right. Those are my words and I am disappointed in the Spanish voter. The letter is what logically follows once one starts slipping down the slope of appeasement.

The Spanish voters have demonstrated clearly to al-Qaeda the terror can influence an election. The United States has a major election in November. Is the US more or less likely to be attacked? Without question more likely. Thank you Spanish voters!!!!!

Now that al-Qaeda knows the Spanish people can be influenced by terror, are the more or less likely to be attacked. Clearly, they are more likely!! It can be so expensive in life and property to be stupid.

[Osman Ghazi]

I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
The reason that the PSOE lost in the first place is because of the step-up in attacks by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA). So, if there were more attacks, logically they would vote the Partido Popular back in, no?
If anything, terrorism causes a conservative backlash. The reason it was the opposite this time is that there was a clear reason for the attacks: Aznar's support for the war on terror. Before this incident I don't recall Spain ever being targeted by Islamist groups.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Spain has capitulated to terrorism, it is that simple.

It is sad that such a nation would concede to bullying tactics. As soon as the going gets a little rough, they allow themselves to be defeated by terror. I'm sure Poland would hold the line after an attack on Warsaw, or the UK if London was targeted. I'm not suprised, though, this is the kind of spineless, back-turning action I would expect from a new socialist regime.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 16 2004, 05:16 PM
Spain has capitulated to terrorism, it is that simple.

It is sad that such a nation would concede to bullying tactics. As soon as the going gets a little rough, they allow themselves to be defeated by terror. I'm sure Poland would hold the line after an attack on Warsaw, or the UK if London was targeted. I'm not suprised, though, this is the kind of spineless, back-turning action I would expect from a new socialist regime.
LOL its you.. I thought you had died or something.

Still wasting away as a slave to the US system I see.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I submit for your consideration:

Anyone who labels themselves an enigma is not really a legitimate enigma.

[Capitalist Imperial]

A slave? hardly. I enjoy this great land, and contrary to your incorrect metaphor, I am the farthest from a slave that can be, sir. That is, by definition, why I am not a slave: my abundant freedom and choice.

[Intifada]

tell me, when was the last time that al qaeda attacked spain (before the one last week)?

they warned aznar that if he supported an attack on iraq, spain would be targeted. this is all aznar's fault. 90% of spain was against the war, they disagreed with aznar and the conservatives. they had had enough of his lies, so they used their only weapon against him: the vote.

[cubist]

Crapitalist imperial


did i hear you say you were enjoying being free? are you out of america then where are you must be good can we come?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Cephas,

Tell me how I am not free, be specific. I don't want dogmatic blanket statements. If you or anyone here can tell me how I, as an American, am not free (and don't split hairs), then I'd be happy to listen.

[Inti]

Cap I: Can you as an American travel to Cuba and return back just as happy as you left? And if no, do you call that freedom?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Cuba is under an embargo that I support, and the fact that I can't go there is not enough to state that my overall freedom has been compromised. No matter how free a nation is, there are contries that it will be at odds with, and that will dictate special rules with respect to relations with enemies. Freedom and law are two distinct concepts. So, I agree that technically my freedom is restricted to a very small degree with travel to cuba, but not even close enough to say that the USA is not a free country.

[Invader Zim]

Enigma: -

http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigma/

[Misodoctakleidist]

The election wasn't influenced my terrorism, it was influenced by conservative lies. If the PP hadn't been so eager to gain a political advantage by blaming ETA it wouldn't have made a difference, they tried to get more voted by blaming ETA and they got what they deserved.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 16 2004, 06:59 PM
Cephas,

Tell me how I am not free, be specific. I don't want dogmatic blanket statements. If you or anyone here can tell me how I, as an American, am not free (and don't split hairs), then I'd be happy to listen.
It all depends on your definition of freedom. In comparison to a Libertarian/Lassiez Faire capitalist society America isn't free. But in comparison to some repressive military state like Chilie under Pinnochet America is free.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good old Wank Morgan strikes again. Boo hoo, I'm sure if the Spanish people knew how disappointed YOU would be at their decision they would immediatly call for a re-vote. Every one knows those dastardly Spaniards love the "do-over".


I suggest you hop on the next plane to Barcelona. Don't forget to wear your little hat with the propeller on top.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:01 PM
It all depends on your definition of freedom. In comparison to a Libertarian/Lassiez Faire capitalist society America isn't free. But in comparison to some repressive military state like Chilie under Pinnochet America is free.
But we are not dealing with or comparing to hypotheticals here. Within the spectrum of real-world nations, the USA is the most free.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Mar 16 2004, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Capitalist Imperial @ Mar 16 2004, 05:00 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 08:01 PM
It all depends on your definition of freedom. In comparison to a Libertarian/Lassiez Faire capitalist society America isn&#39;t free. But in comparison to some repressive military state like Chilie under Pinnochet America is free.
But we are not dealing with or comparing to hypotheticals here. Within the spectrum of real-world nations, the USA is the most free. [/b]
I challenge you to give me one freedom that Americans have that Canadians do not.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Mar 16 2004, 09:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Capitalist Imperial @ Mar 16 2004, 09:00 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 08:01 PM
It all depends on your definition of freedom. In comparison to a Libertarian/Lassiez Faire capitalist society America isn&#39;t free. But in comparison to some repressive military state like Chilie under Pinnochet America is free.
But we are not dealing with or comparing to hypotheticals here. Within the spectrum of real-world nations, the USA is the most free. [/b]
I would say Britian is more free than the USA and so is France.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Those responses are laughable. With response to both Canada: Feedom from being taxed at over 50%.

How are the UK and france more free?

[(*]

At least tax dollars in Canada are put to good use. Like healthcare.

Canada is also "more free" because Gay marriages are legal, and so is marijuana. What about paying a "fair" price for medicine?

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:07 PM
redstar is right. Those are my words and I am disappointed in the Spanish voter. The letter is what logically follows once one starts slipping down the slope of appeasement.

The Spanish voters have demonstrated clearly to al-Qaeda the terror can influence an election. The United States has a major election in November. Is the US more or less likely to be attacked? Without question more likely. Thank you Spanish voters&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Now that al-Qaeda knows the Spanish people can be influenced by terror, are the more or less likely to be attacked. Clearly, they are more likely&#33;&#33; It can be so expensive in life and property to be stupid.
Or perhaps they have voted against Aznar because about 90% of the population opposed the War in Iraq from the very beginning. I guess that didn&#39;t cross your mind.


But we are not dealing with or comparing to hypotheticals here. Within the spectrum of real-world nations, the USA is the most free.

Not true. Any nation that uses such massive efforts as the U.S. does to falsify history is not the freest nation. Australia is much freerer in that sense.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 16 2004, 09:34 PM
Those responses are laughable. With response to both Canada: Feedom from being taxed at over 50%.

How are the UK and france more free?
Weed is also legal in canada so I&#39;d say it balances out.

[shyguywannadie]

Distinguished Mr. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero:

The Spanish people, decidedly opposed to the cruel and unjust war of conquest in Iraq, likewise opposed by yourself, and outraged by the crude electoral manipulation of the unjustifiable terrorist aggression suffered on March 11, has decided to entrust you with the leadership of the Spanish government. On the occasion of this important event, which will have repercussions in the international sphere, we express to you our recognition.

I would also like to extend, and in a special way, our most profound admiration and a tribute of respect to the people of Spain for their nobility and heroism, demonstrated so many times throughout history.

I congratulate you on your decision to withdraw the Spanish troops from Iraq by June 30.

Bearing in mind this decision, I beg you not to forget that, by virtue of actions and pressures on the part of Mr. Aznar as president of the government of Spain, more than 1,000 young men from small and impoverished Latin American nations were sent as cannon fodder to Iraq under the command of the Spanish Legion. Thus, the possible death of any of those young people is the responsibility of the Spanish state.

The peoples of Latin America thus have the right to expect the immediate return of those young people. They do not have a duty to wait until June 30. The death of any one of those young Salvadorans, Hondurans, Dominicans and Nicaraguans would be doubly sad if, being immediately preventable, it is not prevented, given that the political responsibility of the principal author of that measure has been swept away by the Spanish people. The world, and particularly the peoples of our hemisphere, would greatly appreciate anything that you are able to do before assuming the presidency in order to avoid any more Latin American lives being added to those lost in the unjustifiable holocaust that took place in Madrid on March 11.

I hope that you understand the spirit of this message and transmit to you my most sincere sentiments of respect and consideration.


Fidel Castro Ruz
Havana, March 15, 2004
Granma.cu (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/marzo/mar16/mensaje.html)

[Capitalist Imperial]

you can pretty much possess marijuana in the USA without fear of reprisal. you may get a slap on the wrist, but it is tolerated

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:23 PM

Not true. Any nation that uses such massive efforts as the U.S. does to falsify history is not the freest nation. Australia is much freerer in that sense.
That is an Ad-Hoc attack. History is written by the victors. What makes you think that Australia is any more objective than the US in their account of history? In the USA, we have history from every possible perspective in our colleges, public libraries, book stores, congressional libraries, and on the internet. We have freedom of information here, and we use it to get all perspectives.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Heres what I know that Canadians can do that we can&#39;t
1. Travel to any country in the world.
2. Own, use, and sell drugs.
3. Buy any goods they please from anywhere else. (Canadians can come here and use our medical facilities and medicines but we can&#39;t do the same)
4. Gay marriage.
5. Right to medical care for everyone.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:57 AM
Heres what I know that Canadians can do that we can&#39;t
1. Travel to any country in the world.
2. Own, use, and sell drugs.
3. Buy any goods they please from anywhere else. (Canadians can come here and use our medical facilities and medicines but we can&#39;t do the same)
4. Gay marriage.
5. Right to medical care for everyone.
Those have more to do with laws than fundamental freedoms. You are splitting hairs.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Mar 16 2004, 09:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Capitalist Imperial @ Mar 16 2004, 09:00 PM)
[email protected] 17 2004, 12:57 AM
Heres what I know that Canadians can do that we can&#39;t
1. Travel to any country in the world.
2. Own, use, and sell drugs.
3. Buy any goods they please from anywhere else. (Canadians can come here and use our medical facilities and medicines but we can&#39;t do the same)
4. Gay marriage.
5. Right to medical care for everyone.
Those have more to do with laws than fundamental freedoms. You are splitting hairs. [/b]
Those ARE fundamental freedoms, and some of them (namely the first three), even a free market dipshit like you should appreciate.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 16 2004, 11:52 PM
you can pretty much possess marijuana in the USA without fear of reprisal. you may get a slap on the wrist, but it is tolerated
thats a bunch of crap on two levels:
1) marijuana possession does not just get you a slap on the wrist. each state has a set of laws regarding marijuana and many of them are pretty sad considering its just weed. check your state at http://www.norml.org

2) marijuana is not tolerated at all&#33;&#33;&#33; i dont know where in america you live, maybe under a rock in ohio, but thats crap. marijuana is very much looked down upon and seen as something to fear. "its the gatewate drug" lie should tell you right off the bat how its viewed. anti-marijuan commericals, striking down medical marijuana proposals, misconceptions about the drug, etc. should indicate how this country truly feels. marijuana is only truly tolerated in places like spain (named one of the best stoner places by high times- i think it was high times, i dont remember) where you can smoke openly (at bars, coffeeshops, the beach, on the street, etc.) or whatever, nobody harasses you about it. People there dont view it in the same way as in the us. Im assuming many other european countries are the same way as spain in how they view it.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 17 2004, 12:30 AM
That is an Ad-Hoc attack. History is written by the victors. What makes you think that Australia is any more objective than the US in their account of history? In the USA, we have history from every possible perspective in our colleges, public libraries, book stores, congressional libraries, and on the internet. We have freedom of information here, and we use it to get all perspectives.
The U.S. does not have freedom of information. It is possible to get information besides that which is fed through falsifications, and the U.S. will not haul people away and put them in prison, but that does not mean it is free. In the U.S., freedom is supposed to be eliminated by controlling thought. That&#39;s why the media and the general history books are so blatantly biased. Australia does have currently a better media than the U.S. It is much more open, and isn&#39;t made to indoctrinate(Not that it is completely objective. The media is often lacking in the massive oppression against indigenous Australians.). One would not be likely to see a Noam Chomsky speech broadcasted on Fox News, MSNBC, and CNN, but in Australia he does appear on shows such as that. Also, I am not even complaining about perspectives. I am complaining about outright lies. Just look at the coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict, it&#39;s atrocious.

[Y2A]

i&#39;m sorry to tell you this, but that&#39;s democracy.

Deal with it.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected]r 17 2004, 02:13 AM
i&#39;m sorry to tell you this, but that&#39;s democracy.

Deal with it.
Democracy? The U.S. is absolutely a plutocracy.

[Y2A]

I was talking to the guy that made the first post.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 16 2004, 09:34 PM
Those responses are laughable. With response to both Canada: Freedom from being taxed at over 50%.
That isn&#39;t a freedom, really. Taxation without representation is the un-freedom, not a subjectively high tax rate that the majority of voting Canadians elected to have.

Personally, I would say that Holland is the freest country in the world.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

If freedom from taxation is so important, then why don&#39;t you move to Africa where you will not be taxed at all? Hell, while you are there, you an peddle off heroine to small children, and rape them too while if you feel the need. More "freedom" is not always what is best for society.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

KA:" People, WTF are talking about&#33;? Spain choosed it&#39;s own way withot yankee&#39;s and tommie&#39;s&#33;&#33;&#33; They didn&#39;t capitulated in war against terrorism, they just stopped stupid Iraqi war&#33;&#33;&#33;"

[cubist]

tell me how you are free more like&#33;&#33;&#33;

but i feel to me the requirement of money means you are only free to the extent that you can afford, until you have to go to work to earn more money,

work should revolve around life not life around work that to me is free

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 05:31 AM
If freedom from taxation is so important, then why don&#39;t you move to Africa where you will not be taxed at all? Hell, while you are there, you an peddle off heroine to small children, and rape them too while if you feel the need. More "freedom" is not always what is best for society.
:angry: Once again, you make ridicolous statements about nations you know nothing about.

[HankMorgan]

Maybe the letter won&#39;t be about law enforcement ignoring attacks on synagogues as I suggesting in the opening post of this thread.

Perhaps it will have to do with head scarves. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17/france.threats/)

That&#39;s a threat made against France, where they really do burn synagogues. France, who was the chief supporter of Saddam Hussein. It&#39;s really this simple. Radical fundamental Islam is at war with the West. There is no opting out or remaining neutral or appeasing. Everyone is a target. The war will be fought on many fronts, from the mountains of Afganistan to the ballot boxes of Madrid. The Spanish have let us down and increased the danger to everyone, especially themselves.

If you give your lunch money to the school yard bully, what will happen tomorrow when you meet the bully in the school yard? The Spanish are about to find out.

[redstar2000]

It&#39;s really this simple. Radical fundamental Islam is at war with the West. There is no opting out or remaining neutral or appeasing. Everyone is a target. The war will be fought on many fronts, from the mountains of Afghanistan to the ballot boxes of Madrid. The Spanish have let us down and increased the danger to everyone, especially themselves.

How does the imperialist occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan serve to "defend the West" against Islamic fundamentalists?

Doesn&#39;t the "west" create thousands of fresh recruits daily to Islamic fundamentalism by this arrogant display of "western might"?

Keep in mind that the Spanish "socialists" (they aren&#39;t, of course...they&#39;re "new deal" bourgeois liberals) have not withdrawn a single soldier yet -- hoping for "blue helmets" to cover up their own participation in imperialism.

But if they do withdraw, it is clearly the sensible decision.

As to Islamic terrorism in France itself, why don&#39;t we wait and see if it amounts to more than a nasty "letter to the editor".

As to your over-all analysis, are you planning the military occupation of every Muslim country in the world?

Do you think that will "win" your "war on terrorism"?

And if that doesn&#39;t work, what&#39;s "plan B"?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[HankMorgan]

redstar2000,


How does the imperialist occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan serve to "defend the West" against Islamic fundamentalists?
It&#39;s not an imperialist occupation. When the US and its allies have completed the job Iraq they will leave. The job in Iraq and Afghanistan is to free the people from tyranny by establishing rule of law, freely elected governments and free markets. The idea is to make it so the average Iraqi or Afghani knows that best hope for the future of his children lies in success in the marketplace and not in flying a jet into a building on the other side of the earth.


Doesn&#39;t the "west" create thousands of fresh recruits daily to Islamic fundamentalism by this arrogant display of "western might"?
The creation of fresh recruits to Islamic fundamentalism went on long before the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. The actions of the US have no effect on this and I&#39;m not going to worry about it. What I think we should do is give the people a glimpse of how the rest of the world lives. Give them a choice. The innate human desire for freedom will do the rest. Given a choice between picking up your daughter at the door after a successful day at the market or blowing yourself up for Allah, which would you choose?



As to your over-all analysis, are you planning the military occupation of every Muslim country in the world?
Somebody&#39;s asking what I would do. I can&#39;t believe it. Even if I was mathematically certain the occupation of every Muslim country would end the scourge of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism I wouldn&#39;t do it. It isn&#39;t required. All that is required is to do a good job with Iraq and Afghanistan. Doing a good job means staying until the ideas of rule of law, democratically elected governments and free markets are imbedded so deeply they can&#39;t be lost. This may take several generations, not six months or a year. The US has thousands of troops in Germany and Japan. I&#39;d move those troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. It should be possible to reduce the cost of staying in Iraq to below what it costs now to stay in Germany and Japan now. I would plan to be in Iraq for at least the next 50 years.


Do you think that will "win" your "war on terrorism"?

And if that doesn&#39;t work, what&#39;s "plan B"?


We&#39;ll win. The Islamic fundamentalists have taken on the whole world, even you and your country, redstar, where ever you are. They won&#39;t prevail against those odds but if they did, you and I should start memorizing the Koran.

[redstar2000]

It&#39;s not an imperialist occupation. When the US and its allies have completed the job [in] Iraq, they will leave. The job in Iraq and Afghanistan is to free the people from tyranny by establishing rule of law, freely elected governments and free markets. The idea is to make it so the average Iraqi or Afghani knows that best hope for the future of his children lies in success in the marketplace and not in flying a jet into a building on the other side of the earth.

I see.

Do you expect these "admirable" lessons to be successfully transmitted by quisling "governments" backed by military atrocities against civilians? And that "marketplace" stuff...will Iraqis learn useful lessons from watching predatory American and British corporations loot their oil "from a front-row seat"?

On the other hand, don&#39;t you think the Afghanis already understand the "free market"? Having resumed their leading role in world opium production, it&#39;s pretty clear that they grasp the "law of supply & demand" a lot better than many.


Given a choice between picking up your daughter at the door after a successful day at the market or blowing yourself up for Allah, which would you choose?

As I understand current conditions in Baghdad, a "successful day at the market" means not getting blown up "for Allah" or, more likely, not getting shot by some trigger-happy American soldier. If you make any money, that&#39;s a "bonus". Similar conditions prevail in Kabul, so I&#39;ve heard.

Of course, there&#39;s always the "light at the end of the tunnel"...that one hasn&#39;t been used since the early 1970s.

In other words, after you&#39;ve killed enough Iraqis or Afghanis, they&#39;ll "stop fighting and submit to your will".

Like to bet on long-shots, do you?


Doing a good job means staying until the ideas of rule of law, democratically elected governments and free markets are embedded so deeply they can&#39;t be lost. This may take several generations....I would plan to be in Iraq for at least the next 50 years.

Credit where credit is due: at least you&#39;re an honest imperialist.

I think you have grasped, at least partially, the real magnitude of America&#39;s imperial ambition...from now on, whatever they conquer, they intend to hold "in perpetuity". Or until they are driven out, of course.


We&#39;ll win. The Islamic fundamentalists have taken on the whole world...

It rather looks to me like America has "taken on the whole world"...with ultimate consequences that you may not find pleasing.

You know, history, the fate of empires, all that stuff.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[HankMorgan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 08:47 AM
Credit where credit is due: at least you&#39;re an honest imperialist.

Honest? Yes. Imperialist? No. I don&#39;t want to build an empire or run the world. I just want to change the world.

The Islamic terrorists want to impose their fundamentalist way of life on the globe. I want to spread the ideas of rule of law, democratically elected government and free markets on the world. It&#39;s a clash of culture. My strategy is to transplant a big piece of freedom right in the heart of the Islamic world and keep it there. My strategy is based on the idea the freedom will win.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 01:08 PM

I want to spread the ideas of rule of law, democratically elected government and free markets on the world. It&#39;s a clash of culture. My strategy is to transplant a big piece of freedom right in the heart of the Islamic world and keep it there. My strategy is based on the idea the freedom will win.
Why aren&#39;t you restricted yet Mr. Bush?

[LuZhiming]

It&#39;s not an imperialist occupation. When the US and its allies have completed the job Iraq they will leave. The job in Iraq and Afghanistan is to free the people from tyranny by establishing rule of law, freely elected governments and free markets. The idea is to make it so the average Iraqi or Afghani knows that best hope for the future of his children lies in success in the marketplace and not in flying a jet into a building on the other side of the earth.

What do Iraqi&#39;s and Afghani&#39;s have to do with September 11th? :lol: That&#39;s what you are implying. I have to ask, why haven&#39;t their been any advancements in Afghanistan yet? Why isn&#39;t there any Democracy or freedom in Afghanistan yet?


The creation of fresh recruits to Islamic fundamentalism went on long before the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. The actions of the US have no effect on this and I&#39;m not going to worry about it. What I think we should do is give the people a glimpse of how the rest of the world lives. Give them a choice. The innate human desire for freedom will do the rest. Given a choice between picking up your daughter at the door after a successful day at the market or blowing yourself up for Allah, which would you choose?

So do Osama bin Laden&#39;s recruiting vidoes have scenes of Israeli soldiers beating women, Saudi rulers awarding Clinton, and Iraqi children "under siege" for no reason? Keep living in denial.


We&#39;ll win. The Islamic fundamentalists have taken on the whole world, even you and your country, redstar, where ever you are. They won&#39;t prevail against those odds but if they did, you and I should start memorizing the Koran.

That simply isn&#39;t true. What these fundamentalists want most is for the infidels as they call them to get out of Muslim lands. But don&#39;t let the facts get in the way of your little tirades.

[HankMorgan]

There once was a village infested with vipers. On one street a particularly
nasty viper had grown to an unusually large size and was biting all the people
who lived on that street. The rich man renting the mansion got some friends
together and chased the large viper back into his hole. Gathering friends and
chasing vipers is hard work so the rich man said "If you stay in your hole,
stop biting people and agree to these rules, we&#39;ll let you live." The viper
agreed and the rich man went back to his rented mansion.

A few years passed and the rich man moved on. The mansion in the village was
again rented by another rich man. Shortly after moving in the second rich man
was bitten by second viper, right inside the mansion. As he walked about the
village the second rich man was repeatedly bitten by the second viper. The
second rich man got the idea to arrest the vipers. So he bought some handcuffs
and chased the vipers all over the village.

Meanwhile the first viper began to grow bolder. All along he had been biting
people on the street where he lived. But now he stopped living up to the agreement
he had made with the first rich man and the rich man&#39;s friends. It fell to the
second rich man to gather friends and make the first viper live up to the agreement.
The second rich man sent some of his servants to a university to explain his plan
for the first viper. The plan was to pound the ground around the viper&#39;s hole
until viper stopped biting people and lived up to the agreement.

But gathering friends and chasing vipers with handcuffs is hard work. It&#39;s far
easier to chase the serving girls in the mansion. And so that&#39;s what the second
rich man did. Later when the mansion&#39;s owner asked the second rich man if he&#39;d
been fooling around with the serving girls, the second rich man said "Nope, not
me.".

Some years passed. A third rich man came to rent the mansion. He hadn&#39;t been
living in the mansion very long when the second viper bit him hard, very hard.
The bite happened in the same room where the viper had bitten the second rich
man. The third rich man did not like being bitten by a viper. He said aloud
"If we rid our village of vipers, no one will be bitten." Some thought the
third rich man wise, others a fool.

The third rich man gathered some friends and started cleaning out the second
viper&#39;s nest. Then the rich man said "I mean to clean out all the vipers,
including the first viper.". Gathering friends and clearing vipers is hard
work so many friends went back to their houses. The third rich man is still
working hard to rid the village of vipers.


I retold the events of the last roughly 14 years in the form of a child&#39;s story
because in it are concepts children would easily grasp: If you leave vipers
around you will someday be bitten. You can&#39;t handcuff a viper or make agreements
with viper. Pounding the ground around a viper&#39;s hole won&#39;t make the snake
come out. Killing vipers is hard work.

Some people are so proud of their intelligence that have to flaunt it. They
want other people to see how smart they are so they take positions different
from the crowd, positions that defy common sense or common knowledge. If
something is the color black they will say that it&#39;s white believing that others
will think "Where I see black, he sees white. He must be so much smarter than
I". This is very common on the left. For a better description of this
syndrome see Thomas Sowell&#39;s book "The Vision of the Annointed".



What do Iraqi&#39;s and Afghani&#39;s have to do with September 11th? That&#39;s what you are implying. I have to ask, why haven&#39;t their been any advancements in Afghanistan yet? Why isn&#39;t there any Democracy or freedom in Afghanistan yet?


Iraqi and Afghani people have nothing to do with 9/11/2001. Their leaders are or were vipers in the village.

Why isn&#39;t there any democracy or freedom in Afghanistan yet? LuZhuming, stop being so smart and think as a child would. If you plant a seed in the morning, can you harvest the fruit in the afternoon?

[Intifada]

Their leaders are or were vipers in the village.

so because terrorists were known to be living in afghanistan, its alright to bomb the fucking country?

if a known murderer was living in a neighbourhood, would it be alright to besiege it?

[Lardlad95]

Whats with all teh appeasement talk? THis man was fulfilling his campaign promises. He didn&#39;t decide to withdraw in the wake of the attack. He wanted to withdraw from the get go of his campaign.

[redstar2000]

Some people are so proud of their intelligence that [they] have to flaunt it. They want other people to see how smart they are, so they take positions different from the crowd, positions that defy common sense or common knowledge. If something is the color black, they will say that it&#39;s white, believing that others will think "Where I see black, he sees white. He must be so much smarter than I". This is very common on the left.

This paragraph "defies common sense".

I can&#39;t think of anyone so self-deluded as to think that asserting the self-evidently false would win "respect" for "intelligence"...nor do I imagine that rational people would respond to such a display with "respect".

On the other hand, "common sense" and "common knowledge" can often be erroneous. To point out an error in "common sense" or "common knowledge" usually does not win "respect" but rather the opposite...until such time as the error is driven out of "common knowledge" and replaced by a more accurate representation of reality.

If your summary of Thomas Sowell&#39;s book is accurate, then I think it&#39;s "self-evident" that the man is a cretin and his book fit only for landfill.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[HankMorgan]

so because terrorists were known to be living in afghanistan, its alright to bomb the fucking country?

if a known murderer was living in a neighbourhood, would it be alright to besiege it?

Lesser of two evils, old man. Gathering friends and killing vipers is hard work but it&#39;s better than living with vipers. Life is more than chasing young women around desks.

lardlad95, your point is well taken. I read an interesting piece written by Elaine Sciolino in the Sunday paper. She made the point that the Spaniards are haunted by memories of Franco. They haven&#39;t been out from under a dictator for very long. I started this thread by finding fault with the Spanish. Now I&#39;d like to soften that by saying I understand why they voted the way they did. That being said it&#39;s still a mistake to cede control to terrorists.

redstar2000, I agree with everything in your post except your premature judgement of Sowell. On your next pass through the bookstore or library, pick up any of his work and read a little. It&#39;s better than you imagine.