Socialist claim victory

[IPkurd]

spainish vote (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040314/325/eoitw.html)


yeppyyy votes still not finished counting but looks like socislists are goning to win

[Misodoctakleidist]

It seems certain that the socialists will win now but does anyone know how IU are doing? If the socialists win they will have to form a government with IU and other parties to gain an absolute majority.

[MiniOswald]

But already america is jumping in and saying that the socialists also have an obligation to stay with america and keep supporting its illegal wars (which may or may not have been the cause of the terrible madrid bombings), maybe america will make em stand by them like it did to britain
shown here: Bush flash (http://www.bushflash.com/brits.html)

[JonP]

Great stuff, but will the party actually improve Spain and bring socialist values there ? i am skeptical, only time will tell.

[New Tolerance]

I hope that at least it will be better than the last party, whether or not if it is actually socialist.

[Kez]

does anyone have an english version of their programme and manifesto?

[Domino]

It's official, the socialist won. :D They've also declared that they will take the Spanish troops out of Iraq and stay on France and Germany's side.

[Jesus Christ]

thats such a great thing to know

viva la spain

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

hey, Jesus Christ, i thought you said you left and was never coming back

DAMN YOU!!!

hmmmmm :P


--Paz

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 08:26 PM
hey, Jesus Christ, i thought you said you left and was never coming back

DAMN YOU!!!

hmmmmm :P


--Paz
hey, read my comeback thread in chit chat

[STI]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ+Mar 15 2004, 01:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jesus Christ @ Mar 15 2004, 01:41 AM)
[email protected] 14 2004, 08:26 PM
hey, Jesus Christ, i thought you said you left and was never coming back

DAMN YOU&#33;&#33;&#33;

hmmmmm :P


--Paz
hey, read my comeback thread in chit chat [/b]
The prophecy said he would come again. It&#39;s beginning...

[CheViveToday]

It&#39;s good to see the people of a nation unite and make the right decision in the face of such terrible events. Whoa...it&#39;s been like 10 months since I&#39;ve posted here...

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 09:56 PM
It seems certain that the socialists will win now but does anyone know how IU are doing? If the socialists win they will have to form a government with IU and other parties to gain an absolute majority.
i dont know if the IU and the PSOE are going to join together. The IU has asked the PSOE to do this, in a letter i believe, and the PSOE has not even responded. So, we&#39;ll see how it goes.

[RedCeltic]

Here is a proflile of the Spanish Socialist leader from BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3497808.stm

[CheViveToday]

Does anyone know what these "Scandals" were that caused the Spanish Socialists to lose face?

[Monty Cantsin]

can someone tell me what this party is really like? is it really socialist?

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

seems like some of you don&#39;t realize how much power the prime minister has in spain.... look at how much tony blair controls england, its the same situation in espana.... the socialists, if they want to bring socialist values to spain, they shouldn&#39;t have much trouble doing it......... just my centavos.....

[RedCeltic]

here is the only decent discription of the party history I could find in English. :

http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/s/spanish-so...kers-party.html (http://www.encyclopedia4u.com/s/spanish-socialist-workers-party.html)



Here are some "celebration photos" I found:


http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0403/gallery.spain.elec/gal.spain.2.ap.jpg

Supporters of the Socialist Party celebrate outside their party&#39;s headquarters in Madrid.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0403/gallery.spain.elec/gal.spain.5.ap.jpg

A woman tries to find her name on the list at a polling place in Madrid. The slogan on the back of her shirt reads: "No War."

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/mdf496635.jpg

Socialist supporters celebrate their party&#39;s win in front of the socialist party headquarters in Madrid, March 14, 2004. Analysts said the ruling PP party was hurt by the government&#39;s handling of the train bombings that killed 200 and wounded 1,500.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040315/capt.ans11403150019.spain_general_elections_ans114 .jpg

Socialist Party supporters celebrate with flags and a poster reading &#39;no more terror- yes to the constitution&#39; the results in Spain&#39;s general elections outside the socialist party headquarters in Madrid, Sunday, March 14, 2004. Spain&#39;s Socialists defeated the Popular Party (PP) of Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar in a general election on Sunday overshadowed by train bombings that killed 200 people and wounded nearly 1,500.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040315/i/r2791634766.jpg

Supporters raise their hands in a gesture against the bomb attacks during a minute of silence, outside the Spanish socialist party headquarters in Madrid, March 14, 2004. Spaniards threw out their center-right government on Sunday in a spectacular election upset triggered by last week&#39;s suspected al Qaeda attack on Madrid in retaliation for Spanish support of the Iraq war.

[Monty Cantsin]

so from what i&#39;ve read not much is going to change.

[Danton]

This is good and already he has pledged to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq but has a terrorist action directly influenced an election? What are the wider implications? What are we to expect in Britain in this, an election year?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:19 AM
It&#39;s official, the socialist won. :D They&#39;ve also declared that they will take the Spanish troops out of Iraq and stay on France and Germany&#39;s side.
Wow, instead of aligning themselves with US Imperialism, they&#39;re aligning themselves with European Imperialism. That&#39;s really good.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by BornOfZapatasGuns+Mar 15 2004, 04:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BornOfZapatasGuns @ Mar 15 2004, 04:26 PM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 02:19 AM
It&#39;s official, the socialist won. :D They&#39;ve also declared that they will take the Spanish troops out of Iraq and stay on France and Germany&#39;s side.
Wow, instead of aligning themselves with US Imperialism, they&#39;re aligning themselves with European Imperialism. That&#39;s really good. [/b]
France and Germany&#39;s side regarding the war in IRaq genius

[BOZG]

1. France and Germany did not oppose the war for any other reason that they were afraid that they&#39;d lose the business contracts they had there.

2. If the SP does go against the USA, they&#39;re likely to be rejected by the USA in future circumstances and will probably have to align themselves with the French and Germans in future.

[MiniOswald]

at least its less people in iraq&#33;
Now all we need to do is get rid of poles, italians, ukrainians, brits yanks and anyone else thats in there

[Lardlad95]

As long as they oppose it, it&#39;s fine with me. I don&#39;t care that they only cared about money, I just like that nations are taking a side against US imperialism.


2. If the SP does go against the USA, they&#39;re likely to be rejected by the USA in future circumstances and will probably have to align themselves with the French and Germans in future.

Even so that does not diminish the Spanish socialists future victories or ideals. You must have trade to ssurvive in the world.

[BOZG]

As long as they oppose it, it&#39;s fine with me. I don&#39;t care that they only cared about money, I just like that nations are taking a side against US imperialism.


Reverse social chauvinism. Brilliant. Supporting European Imperialism over US Imperialism. Should we call for Offense of the Fatherland.



Even so that does not diminish the Spanish socialists future victories or ideals. You must have trade to ssurvive in the world.

They&#39;re social democrats, they&#39;re not socialists.

[FistFullOfSteel]

YEHA&#33;&#33;&#33;and Jose is gonna take back the soldiers from Iraq in June,this rocks.

[BOZG]

June? That&#39;s hilarious.

[Hate Is Art]

it&#39;s a step forward isnt it?

why are you so pessimistic?

social democrats > conservatives, yes?

troops being withdrawn > troops in Iraq, yes?

june > never, yes?

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 05:26 PM

As long as they oppose it, it&#39;s fine with me. I don&#39;t care that they only cared about money, I just like that nations are taking a side against US imperialism.


Reverse social chauvinism. Brilliant. Supporting European Imperialism over US Imperialism. Should we call for Offense of the Fatherland.



Even so that does not diminish the Spanish socialists future victories or ideals. You must have trade to ssurvive in the world.

They&#39;re social democrats, they&#39;re not socialists.
Who said I support European socialism? I&#39;m strictly talking about the war. Don&#39;t twist my words.


Also I don&#39;t think you are qualified to define their party

[shyguywannadie]

He again reiterated his opposition to the US-led war in Iraq, but said his government would maintain what he described as "cordial relations" with Washington.

He said the soldiers would be pulled out if there was no change in Iraq by the 30 June deadline for transfer of sovereignty.

The European Commission President Romano Prodi, a champion of a stronger Europe, told the Italian newspaper La Stampa that the US strategy had failed, as it had led to international terrorism growing "infinitely more powerful".

He immediately questioned Britain and America&#39;s role in Iraq, and said he planned to withdraw Spanish troops.

[BOZG]

Also I don&#39;t think you are qualified to define their party

Every person who&#39;s actually bothered to post where they actually stand has classified them as social-democrats.



I don&#39;t care that they only cared about money, I just like that nations are taking a side against US imperialism.


You just said you don&#39;t care unless once they oppose US Imperialism. Should I put it in bold too?



As long as they oppose it, it&#39;s fine with me.

It&#39;s far more complicated than that.



social democrats > conservatives, yes?

Just slightly. At least you know exactly where you stand with conservatives. They shoot you in the face, not the back.



troops being withdrawn > troops in Iraq, yes?

It&#39;s really a minor gesture, better than nothing, but not overly significant. The US will probably just replace them with more of their own or ask another country for assistance.



june > never, yes?

And who knows what could happen between now and then? You might find situations arising where the SP will take a step back on their position. Particularly as the elections draw closer.

[Lardlad95]

Every person who&#39;s actually bothered to post where they actually stand has classified them as social-democrats.

That still doesn&#39;t explain how you are qualified to classify their party.


You just said you don&#39;t care unless once they oppose US Imperialism. Should I put it in bold too?

They did it for economic reasons? FIne whatever. That is irrelevant to me. The point is they oppose the war, I oppose the war. I welcome their support even if I disagree with their reasons for opposing it.


It&#39;s far more complicated than that.

Is it? The enemy of my enemy is my friend...atleast in this isntance.

[BOZG]

That still doesn&#39;t explain how you are qualified to classify their party.


So who exactly is qualified? Dancing and being ecstatic about the SP coming to power, seems to me that people believe they have a socialist platform? How do they know this? Are they qualified? Even the media has said that the SP is more of a social-democratic party than a socialist one. They usually try to push any sort of left-leaning party further left.



I welcome their support even if I disagree with their reasons for opposing it......The enemy of my enemy is my friend...atleast in this isntance.

I won&#39;t even justify that one. Fucking idiot.



Is it?

If there was a fascist nation against the war, would you welcome them?




Most people have said how the bombings pushed support for the SP. How much support? Was it substantial? If it was quite substantial, the vote for the SP, could be quite knee-jerk rather than a move to the left.

[Lardlad95]

So who exactly is qualified? Dancing and being ecstatic about the SP coming to power, seems to me that people believe they have a socialist platform? How do they know this? Are they qualified? Even the media has said that the SP is more of a social-democratic party than a socialist one. They usually try to push any sort of left-leaning party further left.

I apologize, It just seemed to me that you were making another baseless character attack, like wheny ou call me a social democrat. I felt it was teh same, so I came to their defense. Even still a social democrat is better than a conservative.

If they call themselves socialist I&#39;m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they do something that convinces me of other wise then I"ll label them social democrats with the rest of you.



If there was a fascist nation against the war, would you welcome them?

Don&#39;t take everything so literal. Of course I wouldn&#39;t welcome the helpof facists. However I don&#39;t see any reason I cant overlook my disagreements with them forthe time being if it means that their is a stronger anti war movement. Don&#39;t take things to the extreme.


Most people have said how the bombings pushed support for the SP. How much support? Was it substantial? If it was quite substantial, the vote for the SP, could be quite knee-jerk rather than a move to the left.

a w is a w

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I have one thought and one question.

My thought: Good riddance to Jose Maria Aznar. Getting Spain into the U.S.&#39;s war in Iraq against the will of 90% of his population, and then making the people of Spain take the brunt of terrorism for Aznar&#39;s actions.

My question: How good is the Socialist Party of Spain? Are they social democratic? I know nothing about them.

[Red Flag]

They were at one time Marxist.. when the fascists came in power they were banned, many of their members were arrested and tortured.. after Spain started democratic elections they headed towards Democratic Socialism.. they arent apposed to private property and the likes, they are however for social welfare and heavy regulation on private industry.

[Stapler]

I&#39;m a little disturbed by the events which lead to the socialist victory over the conservative party. I am very glad to see the socialist party installed. However, it is sad that the circumstances were so tragic.

[Comrade Zeke]

Yeah the Soscialists one&#33;1&#33;&#33;&#33; Viva La Spain&#33; Yes this is the first victory for the cause&#33; There is hope once more...I don&#39;t care what the rest of you say so what there not Communists&#33; They still help the people and the working class as well as ruglation of Private buineesss and Social Welfare....So I say.....Screw the Communist party of Spain they have no chance I say we put are trust in the Soscailist party of Spain. *Jumps for Joy* :D :D :D :D :D :D
Thank the gods we have some good in the world finnally

[Red Flag]

at best we can expect to see results like those of the nordic welfare states.. &#39;capitalism with a human face&#39; as comrade red star 2000 frequently puts it..

its sort of a bandaid on a wound requiring several stitches.

[Yazman]

What ever happened to all the revolutionary current that used to exist in Spain? Did it just go away or something after the Nazis and Franco crushed them?

[shyguywannadie]

Distinguished Mr. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero:

The Spanish people, decidedly opposed to the cruel and unjust war of conquest in Iraq, likewise opposed by yourself, and outraged by the crude electoral manipulation of the unjustifiable terrorist aggression suffered on March 11, has decided to entrust you with the leadership of the Spanish government. On the occasion of this important event, which will have repercussions in the international sphere, we express to you our recognition.

I would also like to extend, and in a special way, our most profound admiration and a tribute of respect to the people of Spain for their nobility and heroism, demonstrated so many times throughout history.

I congratulate you on your decision to withdraw the Spanish troops from Iraq by June 30.

Bearing in mind this decision, I beg you not to forget that, by virtue of actions and pressures on the part of Mr. Aznar as president of the government of Spain, more than 1,000 young men from small and impoverished Latin American nations were sent as cannon fodder to Iraq under the command of the Spanish Legion. Thus, the possible death of any of those young people is the responsibility of the Spanish state.

The peoples of Latin America thus have the right to expect the immediate return of those young people. They do not have a duty to wait until June 30. The death of any one of those young Salvadorans, Hondurans, Dominicans and Nicaraguans would be doubly sad if, being immediately preventable, it is not prevented, given that the political responsibility of the principal author of that measure has been swept away by the Spanish people. The world, and particularly the peoples of our hemisphere, would greatly appreciate anything that you are able to do before assuming the presidency in order to avoid any more Latin American lives being added to those lost in the unjustifiable holocaust that took place in Madrid on March 11.

I hope that you understand the spirit of this message and transmit to you my most sincere sentiments of respect and consideration.


Fidel Castro Ruz
Havana, March 15, 2004
www.Granma.cu

[Severian]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 15 2004, 09:57 PM
Yeah the Soscialists one&#33;1&#33;&#33;&#33; Viva La Spain&#33; Yes this is the first victory for the cause&#33; There is hope once more...I don&#39;t care what the rest of you say so what there not Communists&#33; They still help the people and the working class as well as ruglation of Private buineesss and Social Welfare....
Actually, no, they don&#39;t even promise any of that. They promise more "market-friendly" policies.

From Slate (link) (http://slate.msn.com/id/2097360/), which of course considers all this pro-capitalist stuff a good thing:

Here are some of the economic promises on which Zapatero&#39;s Socialist Workers Party campaigned: lowering the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 30 percent, cutting income taxes, and reducing the value-added tax. Oh, and they&#39;re going to balance the budget and control inflation. The man expected to be the Socialist finance minister, Miguel Sebastian, is a U.S.-educated economist with a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota. He&#39;s promising to put his faith in the Invisible Hand. "There will be a strict separation between politics and business," he told the Financial Times. "We will be a market-friendly government." These are socialists?

Most social-democratic governments are not even trying to expand the welfare state...rather they are competing with straight-up capitalist parties to see who can cut benefits the most, from Germany, to Sweden, to Britain&#39;s "New Labour" of course. The Slate article&#39;s a good analysis of this change in social-democracy - from a capitalist position of course, but they&#39;re looking at the facts.

On Iraq, Zapatero&#39;s position is that the troops will be withdrawn...by June...unless the UN takes over the occupation. That leaves considerable room to wiggle out of a campaign promise, and he has to be watched. Castro&#39;s letter is raising some good points on this in a very diplomatic way.
How do you ask soldiers to stay, how do you ask even one soldier to die, if you admit they should never have been sent there?

The US is unlikely to agree to a UN occupation, as that would mean giving up too much control to other members of the Security Council. In particular, France would demand a share of the loot.

But from any anti-imperialist standpoint, there is no difference between a US and a UN occupation. "Born of Zapatas Guns" is absolutely correct to point out that France and Germany are just as imperialist as the U.S. Both are carrying out a number of imperialist military interventions right now, and support some incredibly rotten puppet dictatorships. It was, for example, a French client regime who carried out the 1994 genocide in Rwanda...while fighting a U.S.-backed rebellion. Hussein&#39;s regime was also a French client, more than anyone else&#39;s. The Franco-German opposition to
invading Iraq was just another incident in great-power rivalry...heck, that&#39;s partly true of the invasion itself.

Anyone who supports one imperialist power against another, is following in the steps of those social-democrats who lined up on different sides of WWI.

Actually, I tend to think the recent events in Spain are most significant in relation to the Basque issue. That was an issue in the campaign...although the PSOE pledged to continue the crackdown on the ETA, it takes a more conciliatory attitude towards negotiating more autonomy with the other Basque nationalist parties. At least in its promises, we&#39;ll see. In any case, Aznar&#39;s government took a harder stand than any previous administration. Even banning the Basque party Herri Batasuna.

And it tried and failed to slander ETA by blaming it for the train bombing. ETA does carry out assassinations and attacks on military targets, but not that kind of random massacre. U.S. conservatives are wrong to say the election results are a victory for "the terrorists" meaning al-Qaeda....but the failure of the slander is a victory for Basque nationalism.

[socialistfuture]

I think it is good Spain elected the Socialists. Maybe they will not be everything people have hoped for.
It shows people once again a socialist governemnt can be elected. Many people who are against Communism talk of its violence and poverty. The disaster in Chile showed that an elected socialist government can be destroyed by imperialist forces no mater what lever of legitimacy it had in the electoral process.
As a socialist I hope for a brighter future, I think the route can be made through government and outside it at the same time. In Scotland the scottish socialist party made it into parliament for the first time. These are good signs. I think it would be good for many socialists near Spain to visit and offer their support and solidarity. Prehaps Spain can be an example to the world - their is hope where one allows for it.
All the best to Spain and the future of socialism&#33;&#33;&#33; victory