Do you eat meat?

[Vallegrande]

It has yet to be proven that animal food is unhealthy in comparison to the vegetarian diet. There are way too many exceptions that disprove the validity of this argument. Examples are the Pygmies of the Congo, whose diet is largely supplied by meat. And the Masai of Kenya, who live on plenty of blood and milk from their cows daily. One interesting point here is that the Masai no longer kill their cows, they only drink blood now, because meat is too hard to keep from rotting. So they eat meat much less now. These people are not dying of heart failure and colon problems etc., such as occurs in the USA. And their land is not being deprived.

And the cows that are traditionally raised are much healthier, dont ruin the land, and actually improve the land. The only time the land is getting destroyed is when the factories are put there, with too much dumpage and so much other shit that it is a problem. The small farmers are not to blame for this, and right now their balls are getting broken by the Feds through substantially decreased farm subsidies. That means more room for the factory farms.

I just want to make it clear that eating animals, whether it be with blood or meat or milk, is not destructive to the land or to the body (cholesterol is actually needed for the body to repair arteries).

[KGB5097]

Simpally put; meat is too good not to eat.

[hamperleft]

the problem is not if meat is good for you or not (no denying that it is) the problem is how they treat the animals that you are eating, they live constantly in their own fecal matter, digesting it in along with the minimal amount of food that is given to them. I try to limit my consumption of meat, but in most cases it is just too damn good.
there are certain, but somewhat expensive alternatives to eating animals living in utter squaller, Colman beef is quite good, and the animals are treated variably well, unfortunately it is way to expensive for me :(

[Seeker]

For ethicaly raised meats (in America), I began searching at www.localharvest.org

I found the family farm I buy from exclusivly through them, and in that one instance the prices are only slightly higher than the factory prices (120%-150% of grocery store prices, compaired to the usual 200%-500%).

It's also handy for finding localy grown organic veggies.

[DeathtoPrejudice]

Look into your mouth, see those 2 sharp teeth on the topa dn bottom of your mouth? Those are called Canines (sp?), and they are the trademark of a carnivore.

Yes, i eat meat. Anyone who says it's unnatural is wrong, it being natural is not up for debate, and 'belief' have no grounds in determining if it's natural are not.

Humans are natural omnivores, so it IS natural to eat me. If you don't believe eating meat is natural, sorry, you're wrong. Plain and simple...

But yes, i fine the meat processing industry very cruel... I have seen the videos and they are disturbing, and I'm entirely against them. I prefer eating meat that has been privately harvested via a hunting trip. Shooting them is far more human then hanging them up by their feet, slicing out their throats and letting them bleed out...

The only thing more horrible then the processing of domestic meat producing animals, in my opinion, is the cat and dog fur trade in china... That is just monstrous, i can't stand it.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 05:19 AM
Humans are natural omnivores, so it IS natural to eat me. If you don't believe eating meat is natural, sorry, you're wrong. Plain and simple...
The only thing plain and simple here is your logic. The shape of your teeth has nothing to do with morality and what natural. What is "natural" is a product of your time period, and, as a leftist, you should realize that.

Being an omnivore is an evolutionary advantage. We have the ability to digest proteins in meat so we can adapt to different environments. Since we no longer need meat, and the morality of eating it is questionable, we should stop eating it.

[DeathtoPrejudice]

What is 'natural' is not up for debate, it is natural for omnivores to eat meat. If you choose not to that is fine, but if you eat it that isn't unnatural and it is not wrong.

Natural is being in accordance with nature, which morality has no part of.

Oh, and we do need meat. It's fine for some people to eat nothing but veggies, but if every last person in this entire world STOPPED eating meat, there wouldn't be enough cultivatable land combined to feed the veggie lust of every last person in this world. That would lead to clearing of forests and swamps, and turning natures havens into farms to feed our 'moral diets.'

And, it isn't for you to say what 'we' should do. It's your choice to not eat meat, but saying everyone else should isn't a appropriete decision by you or anyone else.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 08:49 PM
Oh, and we do need meat. It's fine for some people to eat nothing but veggies, but if every last person in this entire world STOPPED eating meat, there wouldn't be enough cultivatable land combined to feed the veggie lust of every last person in this world. That would lead to clearing of forests and swamps, and turning natures havens into farms to feed our 'moral diets.'
The opposite is true. Cows and other herbivores eat vegetables and fruits. The growth of those fruits is required to raise those herbivores. By eliminating an unnecessary link in the change, humanity can use less resources. Your argument about the clearing of swamps is false. Cows, specifically, contribute to global warming and the destruction of land moreso than a vegetarian lifestyle does. In fact, some people are vegetarian for environmental concerns, such as the clearing of land. Others are vegetarian for economic reasons - it is easier to feed everyone in the world if we are all vegetarian.

Vegetarianism, as Einstein knew, is a part of human evolution. As we evolve, more vegetarians will emerge.

[DeathtoPrejudice]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor+Jan 3 2006, 10:35 PM--> (Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor @ Jan 3 2006, 10:35 PM)
[email protected] 3 2006, 08:49 PM
Oh, and we do need meat. It's fine for some people to eat nothing but veggies, but if every last person in this entire world STOPPED eating meat, there wouldn't be enough cultivatable land combined to feed the veggie lust of every last person in this world. That would lead to clearing of forests and swamps, and turning natures havens into farms to feed our 'moral diets.'
The opposite is true. Cows and other herbivores eat vegetables and fruits. The growth of those fruits is required to raise those herbivores. By eliminating an unnecessary link in the change, humanity can use less resources. Your argument about the clearing of swamps is false. Cows, specifically, contribute to global warming and the destruction of land moreso than a vegetarian lifestyle does. In fact, some people are vegetarian for environmental concerns, such as the clearing of land. Others are vegetarian for economic reasons - it is easier to feed everyone in the world if we are all vegetarian.

Vegetarianism, as Einstein knew, is a part of human evolution. As we evolve, more vegetarians will emerge. [/b]
That is true that cows eat vegetation, as do other animals. Chickens eat birdseed, Cows eat grass, Pigs eat.. What humans refuse to eat.

Humans dont eat grass, or birdseed, or nasty slime that we feed to pigs. We are turning 'grass' and birdseed and other unedible vegetation into healthy animals that can be consumed for our sustenance. Of course, cow-corn (that nasty hard corn) is a good example of what you are talking about, but then again for all we know, it could be much easier to gorw. And therfore easier to transform into food via animals. Or again, do you prefer we clear the wild plains and install countless farms, that's destruction of the enviornment.

And of course, we need to feed animals for other reason. Dairy and eggs are also products of animals, so in essence we turn grass, slush, and birdseed. Into eggs milk, cheese, yogurt, and meat.

And the Earth is mostly covered by oceans, so we harvest Fish as well. Fish is the base of many peoples diets, particularly places like japan and the phillipines, where there is not much room to cultivate domestic animals or crops, and lots of room to fish.

Do you count fish, as meat?

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

The land used to grow crops for farm animals can be used to grow crops for humans - different crops. That land will provide more food if used for crops directly rather than used for crops to feed farm animals. Vegetarianism removes and unnecessary link in the food change.

I view fish as meat, too. If I recall correctly, the Inuit, in Canada, have the lowest life expectency because they have a diet of mainly fish and seal meat. Eating fish is a bit different. I think it's still wrong, for ethical reasons, but it might be pratical to eat some fish, on occasion. I don't like the taste of fish anyway.

[DeathtoPrejudice]

Well i hardly call grass a crop. By grazing cattle for sustenance, we get meat and dairy. We turn something nobody would eat, into milk, and meat. Birdseeds come from various flowers, another vegetation people will not eat. And again, turn something unedible into eggs and meat. It's economical and efficient. Same goes for pigs, who pretty much recycle human food scraps along with just about anything you feed them. We get meat. Or, you can clear the flowerbeds, clear the plains and make more and more farms.

And what of deer, that eat wild vegetation nobody would touch, and are hunted for food. Deer among other wildlife in the wild provide a source of food, a source that CANT be cleared to make farms for veggies, for human consumption. Hunting is still a way of life for many people (even in places like the US, although primarily in extremely rural communities). a 1$ bullet can bring down 1 fully grown deer, which has enough meat to feed a family for a pretty long time.

And you're reference to Inuit is misleading, Japan's diet is comprised mostly of Fish and rice, and Japan along with singapore (both have similiar diets) have the highest life expectancy rates in the WORLD. No amount of cultivatable land can make up for the amount of food the oceans can give us..

[pandora]

Traditionally farm economies have eaten less meat then we do now. Hunter gathering societies ate meat in the winters when crops were less available. But this dried meat often eaten had much less fat then what people now inbibe.

The modern diet is too high in meat. This diet was very rare in the ancient times, only very wealthy or chronic hunters ate such diets, but not all.

[Vallegrande]

The land used to grow crops for farm animals can be used to grow crops for humans - different crops. That land will provide more food if used for crops directly rather than used for crops to feed farm animals. Vegetarianism removes an unnecessary link in the food change.


How is that link unnecessary? Cows have quite a few stomaches that can digest vegetables unlike us humans. We dont get certain nutrients that are in the plants because our bodies dont know how to utilize them. That's where animals come in. The nutrients that animals utilize from vegetables can be used efficiently by humans. You have to eat a lot of vegetables to get the same amount of nutrients from a piece of meat.

When you eat only vegetables, your body wont be able to uptake the vitamins as well. This is an ancient fact, as every culture has relied on animals. Yet in these days, animals seem to be destroying our land. Why are they doing this? Well, it hardly has to do with the resources needed for raising them or the increase in human consumption.

What it has to do with is the fact that we are actually producing too much meat for consumption, and we always will as long as this system is capitalistic. There are always great heaps of meat just rotting on the store shelves. That kind of system is what destroys the land. I dont see a non-capitalistic society where the animals cause global warming or wreack havoc to the resources.

[Ian]

"Do I eat meat"

As often as I can.

[expatriot]

Eating Meat supports the capitalistic fascist establishment-unless you kill your own animals with your own gun.

[Ian]

using guns supports gun manufacturers, I mostly kill with my bare hands... but sometimes I kick too... the kicks seem to tenderise the meat a little extra.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 11:25 PM
Simpally put; meat is too good not to eat.
A more factual statement would be that meat is too important not to be eaten.

Without the addition of meat in the diets of pre-sapien species, the nutrients that were required by bodily evolution for the development of brains with the high cognitave capacities we see today would have never happened.

We would still be running amok grunting while sucking on useless twigs.

Considering what the last year has produced in this thread, that may have been the way to go.

[STI]

Eating Meat supports the capitalistic fascist establishment-unless you kill your own animals with your own gun.



Well then so does buying vegetables, clothes, a vehicle, soap, cutlery, appliances, books, and absolutely anything else you could ever purchase.

What should we do then, make our own towels?

For the amount of good it would do, it isn't worth the time.

[Notaleftist]

I love meat, especially if I've hunted it myself. It's been awhile since I've been hunting, not my favorite thing to do, but wild game is much better than steroid layden meat.

[RedAnarchist]

I eat meat almost every day, although it is a fairly small part of my diet.

[Cullmac]

Hitler was a vegitarian.. FACIST PIG!
But err yeah seriously i eat meat, its nice to eat and gives me a decent supply of protein so why the hell not.

[Iroquois Xavier]

I Love MEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT! :)

I dont eat pigs cos they are cops.

[1984]

Of course I do. Especially PORK meat, not only for its d-e-l-i-c-i-o-u-s taste, but also as a symbolic act.

BTW Xavier, cops are dogs.

:P

[Koruptah]

I'm vegetarian most of the time... But sometimes i just need a damn bacon cheese burger....

[loveme4whoiam]

I most certainly do. I recently had veal, which was nice although a bit tasteless. Or maybe the sauce was too overpowering. Meh.

[fernando]

Vegetarians who claim to respect life should starve themselves to death! You only eat plants and stuff like that? PLANT MURDERER MURDERER MURDERER MURDER!!!! Starve yourself to death so that your decomposing body can be used to fertilize soil which can be used to feed other animals :blink:

Bla I like to eat meat, meat is nice and good. You want to mass murder only plants for mass consumption? Im cool with that, just dont annoy me with whining that Im such a primitive savage for eating meat...Ive had it with vegans and vegetarians at the moment!

[Comrada J]

Ok, why do you hate Vege/vegans so much?

[Palmares]

I've been thinking about this whole eating meat/not eating meat dicotomy recently, and though I see veganism as much too dogmatic for my liking, especially that of which is relates to the vegans who are against eating honey (because the bees have to work to make it!), and those who are against consuming yeast (it's live cultured), I've vaguely decided to try to stop eating meat.

You see, it's not that I'm against the concept of eating meat, hell no. I'm only really against the oppressive nature and the environmental degradation caused by the current system of agriculture under contemporary capitalist society.

Slowly I had been converting myself to a freegan a reducing my meat intake because of the agricultural system. But I've found I become quite lazy and complacent and really drop my ethics quite easily.

And now after hanging around some vegetarian and vegan friends of mine, I've realised that there are so many substitutes for meat, and other animal products, that if I were just to put a little bit of effort and switched over, I would be more align with my ethics.

It's strange too, in that it has little to do with me not wanting to eat meat, but rather, realising how lazy I become with my lifestyle ethics, that putting a little bit of effort to have a lifestyle more intune with a non-oppressive and more environmetally friendly ethics, than that really is the least I can to do in the push for a better world.

That's my diatribe anyway.

[fernando]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 31 2006, 06:52 AM
Ok, why do you hate Vege/vegans so much?
Im just very very annoyed by people trying to convert me to vegginess and then everytime when Im trying to eat meat they will give me a rant on what kind of a bastard I am for it. Or another great thing, shove pictures of animal abuse in my face. Perhaps we should shove in their face all the trees that are chopped down (also killing tons of animals) so they can have their wooden stuff in their house...

I dont really hate them, they just bug me like...other annoying things such as mosquito bites, tooth ache and stress

[Comrada J]

I'm a vegetarian and I find meat eaters annoying, especially when they ask me what I eat.

[Palmares]

It goes both ways: meat eaters ate dealing with preaching vegetarians/vegans, as it questions their very way of life, and/or simply they thinkthe vegetarian/vegan way of life is a waste of time - lifestylist bullshit that doesn't change anything.

But for the vegetarian/vegan, minus the fact they have to see people around them doing the very thing they think is most (or close to it) wrong in this world, everytime they eat with someone they don't know (or someone who is stubborn) they hear, "You don't eat meat???".

Just a random funny thing I saw recently related to this subject: I was reading this thread about wanting help for the local Food Not Bombs (an anarcho-vegetarian/vegan collective), but I read one particular sentence that made me laugh: "No animal-lib freaks"...

It relates to the divide in the non-meat eating world - those who don't eat it due to the agricultural industry, and those that do it because "animals are humans too!". Sorry, that was a bit harsh, but you get the idea.

[commiecrusader]

This debate is so pointless. Within nature, there are creatures that eat meat and creatures that eat plants, and creatures that eat both. We as humans have evolved to eat both. Therefore, there is no reason why we shouldn't eat meat. At the same time, if people don't want to eat meat, they don't have to. But quit whining away about animals feelings and crap like that. If we weren't around to eat them, something else would be. As long as they are not battery-raised animals, there is no problem. We kill them on the whole in a much more humane way than their natural predators would.

[Canavar]

Childish comments in a thread about vegetarianism?! Who woulda thunk it? I really didn't expect anything else from certain types of "revolutionaries" to be found on RevolutionaryLeft.com.. This is regardless of topic, and although I am a proponent of veganism and animal liberation, I don't mind debates about it, but many of the replies in this thread are simply unacceptable in an intellectual debate. Not that I expected to find any such thing on an internet forum.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 11:07 PM
Childish comments in a thread about vegetarianism?! Who woulda thunk it? I really didn't expect anything else from certain types of "revolutionaries" to be found on RevolutionaryLeft.com.. This is regardless of topic, and although I am a proponent of veganism and animal liberation, I don't mind debates about it, but many of the replies in this thread are simply unacceptable in an intellectual debate. Not that I expected to find any such thing on an internet forum.
Boy, you really taught them <_< .

I do eat meat, although I do not get offended when I get assaulted for my carnivorous ways. I simply point out to the hypocrite that they are wearing leather shoes. Or that they are sitting in a wooden seat. This goes along the lines of it being impossible to completely evade capitalism. Conscious, temporary submission is forgivable until the movement gains enough strength.

[FULL METAL JACKET]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 31 2006, 06:36 AM
I&#39;m a vegetarian and I find meat eaters annoying
Wow so your pretty much annoyed with the majority of the world.

[La Comédie Noire]

I could care less what people eat aslong as it&#39;s not workers. :o

I like people who argue that meat is unhealthy and thats why they do not eat it. It&#39;s alot more sensible than wasting your time on liberating animals. I mean most of the world, the human world, is starving to death because capitalists do not pay them enough and with hold the means of production. So your basically saying fuck feeding people, I need to have moral reservations about something totally asinine Instead.

[OkaCrisis]

Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Feb 6 2006, 12:51 AM--> (FULL METAL JACKET &#064; Feb 6 2006, 12:51 AM)
Komrad [email protected] 31 2006, 06:36 AM
I&#39;m a vegetarian and I find meat eaters annoying
Wow so your pretty much annoyed with the majority of the world.[/b]
Aren&#39;t we all?

But, argri-business is only a small fraction of the "majority of the world" that annoys me, and I think most of us- veggies and omnivores alike- agree.

To combat my distaste for current "food" production practices, I am a vegetarian.
To combat the rest of the "majority of the world" that annoys me so much, I am a Communist.

I am a reaction to all the things that make up the majority of the world that annoy me.

I suspect you are too&#33;

So let&#39;s unite on the grounds of our politics, regardless of whether or not we succumb to the occasional steak once in a while (or daily, or whatever). You eat what you eat, I eat what I eat. We could have greater distances between us, honestly.

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Feb 6 2006, 03:51 PM--> (FULL METAL JACKET &#064; Feb 6 2006, 03:51 PM)
Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 31 2006, 06:36 AM
I&#39;m a vegetarian and I find meat eaters annoying
Wow so your pretty much annoyed with the majority of the world.[/b]
When they ask me retarded questions like "what do you eat?&#33;", yes.


OkaCrisis
Aren&#39;t we all?

To combat the rest of the "majority of the world" that annoys me so much, I am a Communist.

I am a reaction to all the things that make up the majority of the world that annoy me.

I suspect you are too&#33;.
Exactly. I&#39;m surprised FMJ is posting here if he already loves things how they are. Being communists in a capitalist world we should all be annoyed with the "majority of the world".

[Seong]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 6 2006, 04:34 PM
I could care less what people eat aslong as it&#39;s not workers. :o

I like people who argue that meat is unhealthy and thats why they do not eat it.
Haha that is an excellent way of putting it.

I have nothing against Vegans - apart from the one&#39;s who call me a murderer. I was once a herbivore and it made me anaemic. So meat being unhealthy doesn&#39;t really go down in my book.

Plus I love bacon. I must have been temporarily insane to give it up. :wub:
Wub the bacon.

[Canavar]

Originally posted by Tormented by [email protected] 6 2006, 03:45 AM
Boy, you really taught them <_< .
I had no intent to teach. I made a fair point about the type of replies such a topic normally gets, and a futile concern about such conduct on a progressive forum. Of course, I know that an internet forum is open to all, even the dimmest of wits. But you&#39;re right, it was wrong of me to expect a, not necessarily respectful, but at least serious discourse. <_<

To clarify a bit: I&#39;m not refering to each and every post critical of the topic, but to posts such as "Yum yum meatey meat. MEAT MEAT MEAT YUm yum" and "I&#39;m sorry.... but SPECIESISM? :lol: :lol: :lol:", etc..

[Canavar]

...

[Seong]

Well in response to your highly intellectual &#39;meat meat meaty meat&#39; rebuttle, my reaction to pretentious &#39;intellectualism&#39; is often to laugh and try and make a joke that I won&#39;t be ashamed of. I don&#39;t think I have to sound like I have a dictionary/thesaurus stuck up my ass 24/7. Sorry to let you down.
:o

[Canavar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 04:12 AM
Well in response to your highly intellectual &#39;meat meat meaty meat&#39; rebuttle, my reaction to pretentious &#39;intellectualism&#39; is often to laugh and try and make a joke that I won&#39;t be ashamed of. I don&#39;t think I have to sound like I have a dictionary/thesaurus stuck up my ass 24/7. Sorry to let you down.
:o
Pretentious "intellectualism"? For requesting a serious debate? I sound "like I have a dictionary/thesaurus stuck up my ass 24/7"? If it&#39;s pretentious "intellectualism" to ask people to refrain from such petty insults, so be it. But of course it&#39;s not. Oh, well.. I&#39;ll just leave this thread at that..

[Seong]

It seems as if you&#39;re saying that we&#39;re all stupid for giving our honest opinions - whatever their level of sophistication.

I did not mean to infer that you had any type of book lodged up your ass, only that I don&#39;t like sounding as if I have one up mine all the time. Sorry if it came out that way it was not intended.

I eat meat for very basic and primitive reasons that are in no way intellectual. I, like many others, have no political agenda attached to my choice. Eating meat satisfies my basic needs of not being iron deficient and fainting alot. And I like the feeling of chewing it. Hence the very basic statement: I wub meat.

[Canavar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 02:08 PM
It seems as if you&#39;re saying that we&#39;re all stupid for giving our honest opinions - whatever their level of sophistication.

I did not mean to infer that you had any type of book lodged up your ass, only that I don&#39;t like sounding as if I have one up mine all the time. Sorry if it came out that way it was not intended.

I eat meat for very basic and primitive reasons that are in no way intellectual. I, like many others, have no political agenda attached to my choice. Eating meat satisfies my basic needs of not being iron deficient and fainting alot. And I like the feeling of chewing it. Hence the very basic statement: I wub meat.
Oh, that was not my intent&#33; To come off as an elitist, that is. ;) I just feel that certain replies, like "Yum yum meatey meat. MEAT MEAT MEAT YUm yum", are what is commonly refered to as trolling, and I&#39;m just quite used to replies like that from online forums and guestbooks.. Many which are far more inane than anything on this thread. I&#39;m absolutely up for discussing it, and I don&#39;t mind disagreement, but I hate hostility, so I&#39;m glad we sorted that out. :)

[Seong]

Ditto. Alot of people around here argue alot of stupid things and I really don&#39;t want to be one of them&#33; And I agree certain replies..are sometimes less worth attention than others - but they are mostly just in fun.

Welcome to RevLeft btw :P

[Iepilei]

Biologically speaking, humans should only consume trace amounts of meats on occassion only. Daily meat consumption is a health risk, as our bodies are not designed to process meat.

WE ARE HERBIVORES. Our bodies synthesize protein strands from amino-acids. True carnivores cannot do that. Our intestinal tract is designed for optimal processing of fruits and vegetables (it&#39;s very long and curves often). True carnivores have a more streamlined intestinal tract.

All animals can eat whatever they want. A dog can eat grass or vegetables, a monkey will eat bugs or small rodents, and humans can eat meat and the milk of another animal. Whether it&#39;s &#39;healthy&#39; for you is a different thing altogether.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 10:17 AM
Biologically speaking, humans should only consume trace amounts of meats on occassion only. Daily meat consumption is a health risk, as our bodies are not designed to process meat.

WE ARE HERBIVORES. Our bodies synthesize protein strands from amino-acids. True carnivores cannot do that. Our intestinal tract is designed for optimal processing of fruits and vegetables (it&#39;s very long and curves often). True carnivores have a more streamlined intestinal tract.

All animals can eat whatever they want. A dog can eat grass or vegetables, a monkey will eat bugs or small rodents, and humans can eat meat and the milk of another animal. Whether it&#39;s &#39;healthy&#39; for you is a different thing altogether.
we are actually OMNIVORES designed to eat both meat and vegetables. if we were herbivores we wouldn&#39;t have canine teeth to tear meat. If we were herbivores we would all be pale and ill from lack of protein.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by Iroquois Xavier+Mar 2 2006, 10:47 AM--> (Iroquois Xavier @ Mar 2 2006, 10:47 AM)
[email protected] 2 2006, 10:17 AM
Biologically speaking, humans should only consume trace amounts of meats on occassion only. Daily meat consumption is a health risk, as our bodies are not designed to process meat.

WE ARE HERBIVORES. Our bodies synthesize protein strands from amino-acids. True carnivores cannot do that. Our intestinal tract is designed for optimal processing of fruits and vegetables (it&#39;s very long and curves often). True carnivores have a more streamlined intestinal tract.

All animals can eat whatever they want. A dog can eat grass or vegetables, a monkey will eat bugs or small rodents, and humans can eat meat and the milk of another animal. Whether it&#39;s &#39;healthy&#39; for you is a different thing altogether.
we are actually OMNIVORES designed to eat both meat and vegetables. if we were herbivores we wouldn&#39;t have canine teeth to tear meat. If we were herbivores we would all be pale and ill from lack of protein. [/b]
We are capable of eating both meat and plants. It is far healthier to eat no meat than to eat small amounts. Even though I am a vegetarian, I know veganism is the most healthy lifestyle. Einstein can vouch for that.

[Typhoon]

Ive always eaten meat and probably always will.

Nutritionally speaking humans can cope quite well with meat and it can be a very important part of your diet although good quality fish and poultry products are supposed to be better for you than red meat.
Way too much meat is of cause bad, but then again so is everything if you eat it in the wrong amounts, everything in moderation is my line on diet :)

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by Dooga Aetrus [email protected] 2 2006, 08:40 PM
Einstein can vouch for that.
Let me ask him...oh yeah he&#39;s dead.

[dusk]

I think meat is the best.
When it is from the wild.

[Niall]

yes, its a natural thing

[Comrada J]

Yeah, just like greed.

[Yazman]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2006, 07:52 PM
WE ARE HERBIVORES. Our bodies synthesize protein strands from amino-acids. True carnivores cannot do that. Our intestinal tract is designed for optimal processing of fruits and vegetables (it&#39;s very long and curves often). True carnivores have a more streamlined intestinal tract.

All animals can eat whatever they want. A dog can eat grass or vegetables, a monkey will eat bugs or small rodents, and humans can eat meat and the milk of another animal. Whether it&#39;s &#39;healthy&#39; for you is a different thing altogether.
First of all, humans are neither carnivores nor herbivores - we are omnivores, and our bodies are equipped with the capability to digest both plant and organic matter.

Secondly, when you say "humans can eat meat and the milk of another animal" as if it is unhealthy, well I&#39;m sorry to tell you this but we are one of the few creatures to possess a gene that allows us to properly digest (and thus benefit from) milk in adulthood. It is not unhealthy to eat meat or drink milk.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If we are hebivores, why is our appendix vestigial?

[Eleutherios]

I don&#39;t eat meat. It&#39;s an aesthetic thing for me. I just don&#39;t find the idea of putting animal corpses in my mouth very appetizing. And it&#39;s not like being a vegetarian has caused me any serious health problems. I think diet is a matter of personal choice. If you want to kill animals for food, I&#39;m not going to stop you (as long as the animals aren&#39;t human, and I might have some problems if it was a chimp or gorilla too). It would be impossible for me to be an anarchist and simultaneously advocate the end of meat. Every culture in all of human history has had lots of carnivores. We couldn&#39;t get rid of them without a giant purge of some sort.

Claiming that 5 billion+ people are murderers just because they eat meat is not the way to social progress. Because then you either have to "re-educate the masses" or enact a "final solution" against the murderers by means of the almighty veggie vanguard. Come on guys, it&#39;s just food. People aren&#39;t going to give up meat, and it&#39;s not our job to force them to.

[Vallegrande]

I have been thinking about a new way to live off of animals. It is not a new idea either.

People can live off of animals through blood without actually killing the animal. Therefore, meat is not considered necessary anymore, and the animals can live out their full life.

Cows are a great example of this. Their jugulur veins are big enough to prick a small hole for draining blood, and they are let to heal for a good period of time, perhaps a month or more. It is a simple as one donating to a blood bank.

I&#39;d say that this is un-arguably the best method in sustainable living. No killing animals, no rotting meat. Just fresh blood everyday. Sounds gross, yet it&#39;s not destructive at all, and people would get much more nutrients through blood than meat.

[Black Dagger]

I&#39;m slowly turning into a vege&#33; Don&#39;t worry meat-heads, it&#39;s not because of &#39;moralism&#39;&#33; :P

I don&#39;t have a job at the moment so my bank account is going south every day, and eating meals with meat can be &#036;&#036;&#036;. The cheapest places to eat and all the places that i get free meals from are vegan. The food i get from dumpsters is mainly fruit and vege etc. I&#39;m still not a vege or a vegan, get meat every now and then, but ive eaten more vege/vegan food than in these past months than probably in the total of my &#39;past life&#39; :P

Freegan > vegan :D

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2006, 12:23 AM
I have been thinking about a new way to live off of animals. It is not a new idea either.

People can live off of animals through blood without actually killing the animal. Therefore, meat is not considered necessary anymore, and the animals can live out their full life.

Cows are a great example of this. Their jugulur veins are big enough to prick a small hole for draining blood, and they are let to heal for a good period of time, perhaps a month or more. It is a simple as one donating to a blood bank.

I&#39;d say that this is un-arguably the best method in sustainable living. No killing animals, no rotting meat. Just fresh blood everyday. Sounds gross, yet it&#39;s not destructive at all, and people would get much more nutrients through blood than meat.
Blood isn&#39;t gross. Ever had a black pudding?

[anomaly]

Yea, I eat meat. Although I see nothing wrong with vegetarianism. So long as you don&#39;t force me to be one.

[piet11111]

i eat meat and if someone tells me i cant then i will eat him/her :lol:

[apathy maybe]

I used to eat very little meat. Now I&#39;m going vegitarian and cutting out eggs too.

I think I might even try for the vegan after I finishing all my milk products I have in the house. (Well not true vegan, I see nothing wrong with honey.)

The reason is only partly ethical. It is also partly seeing if I can. Seeing if I can stop eatting meat that is produced unethically (yes I can). It also makes me examine what I am eating closer. Where did that stuff come from? And so on.

I might even go organic (though if I dumpster dive that is harder).

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 25 2006, 07:16 AM
I used to eat very little meat. Now I&#39;m going vegitarian and cutting out eggs too.

I think I might even try for the vegan after I finishing all my milk products I have in the house. (Well not true vegan, I see nothing wrong with honey.)

The reason is only partly ethical. It is also partly seeing if I can. Seeing if I can stop eatting meat that is produced unethically (yes I can). It also makes me examine what I am eating closer. Where did that stuff come from? And so on.

I might even go organic (though if I dumpster dive that is harder).
you might as well just slit your wrists now&#33; :rolleyes:

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Iroquois Xavier+Mar 27 2006, 12:23 PM--> (Iroquois Xavier @ Mar 27 2006, 12:23 PM)
apathy [email protected] 25 2006, 07:16 AM
I used to eat very little meat. Now I&#39;m going vegitarian and cutting out eggs too.

I think I might even try for the vegan after I finishing all my milk products I have in the house. (Well not true vegan, I see nothing wrong with honey.)

The reason is only partly ethical. It is also partly seeing if I can. Seeing if I can stop eatting meat that is produced unethically (yes I can). It also makes me examine what I am eating closer. Where did that stuff come from? And so on.

I might even go organic (though if I dumpster dive that is harder).
you might as well just slit your wrists now&#33; :rolleyes: [/b]
What was the point of that statement?

Anyway, on topic- I do eat meat but I&#39;m trying to cut back (mainly for financial reasons- I don&#39;t have a moral objection to eating meat, although I would like to see conditions improve) and also try to buy organic/free range meat.

It&#39;s also not too advisable to dumpster meat so vegies are a lot more plentiful. :P

[ichneumon]

drinking cow blood is common in many pastoral societies. the maasai do it, can&#39;t argue with the maasai. the cows really don&#39;t seem to mind. probably hurts less than the hundred of bug bites they get every day.

nevertheless, there is not enough land on earth to feed everyone meat like americans eat. eating meat is just another capitalist luxury, sucking up pleasure from the suffering and deprevation of others. i suspect that VERY soon all that range land is going to be growing corn for ethanol anyway.

[Disciple of Prometheus]

I eat alot of meat, :D .

Why would you not eat meat? I just can&#39;t fathom what flew up these vegans and vegetarians skirts, that would make them give up meat, I mean sure there are some cases of mis-treatment, and that is truly sad, but what about meat that is killed humanely? Like through hunting, or buying fish from the market, how is that wrong?

[ichneumon]

experiment: three plots of land, equal in every way. you have five years to produce food and a certain amount of money to start with. you have a given number of people to work the land, and you start with nothing but money, land and people.

in plot A, you will raise meat. in plot B, you will raise vegies. in plot C, you will do nothing but harvest what grows there naturally (this is the control).

given: for a standard person, there is an amount and quality of food which, if given to that person an a daily basis, will sustain life indefinitely. you must have a certain amount of kilocalories of food, a certain percentage of protein, certain vitamins, etc. we will call this unit a food-day.

everytime this experiment has been carried out, and it has been ad naseum, plot B - the veggie plot, does better. always. if plot A has 21st cen technology and plot B has 15thcentury tech, plot B still wins. hell, often plot C feeds more people.

meat is a luxury item in a world were people starve for the lack of a few kilos of rice.

fishing does not figure into this, neither does hunting wild game. if you want to know the status of the oceans, i can tell you. it&#39;s not pretty. however, due to ecological mismanagement and anthropogenic effects, there are a number of species that routinely overpopulate and must be culled. eat those. start with cats and dogs, then go on to roadkill.

[Disciple of Prometheus]

The "experiment," proves nothing, because humans bodies can neither thrive on just veggies, or just meat. Eating only meat would result in massive weight loss, and you would not get the necessary vitamins; same goes from eating only plants, you wouldn&#39;t get the necessary vitamins, no matter how many ways you cut it, or how many vitamin supplements you ingest, it isn&#39;t gonna change that fact.

Humans are an omnivorous animal, thus we should eat both meat and plants. Animals kill other animals, they devour other animals, humans are animals thus we do the same.

I know that humans cultivate to much fish, and what have you, but most of the meat that is eaten are from animals we have surplus in, i.e., cows, chickens, and swines, so their really is nothing inherently wrong about eating meat.

"The natural law is tooth and claw."

[Ol' Dirty]

Humans didn&#39;t get to th top of th food chain to eat just tofurky.

[Fistful of Steel]

Yeah, I eat meat. It tastes good and it&#39;s a nice source of protein. Being a vegetarian and trying to save the environment these days is like putting a band-aid on a corpse.

[Sacha]

Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 14 2004, 12:19 AM
And yes kiddos, meat IS indeed murder...The tastiest, most succulent kind of murder in existence.


I am just going to quote you because this is the first I have seen of this. Nothing personal, I am sure this has been said many times before.

I don&#39;t believe that eating meat is murder. Animals eat other animals all the time. We are given the natural ability and tools to eat meat as is the lion or the panther or the wolf. It is part of the natural progession of life, it is survival. We have the teeth to chew it with, our bodies require many of the nutrients found in meat to survive. If you want to eat meat, go for it. If not, then don&#39;t - but make sure you are looking after yourself properly with suppliments or other food that are high in the nutrients that meat provides.

I eat very little meat, one of the reasons being is that I have worked in the meat department of a grocery store for over 6 years. It isn&#39;t a grocery store that cuts the meat there, it comes in packed, but just being around it gives me more then enough reasons not to eat it. The whole food industry is corrupt and the premise of charging people and marketing food is wrong.

The real problem is HOW we go about producing the meat to eat, that is what is wrong and can easily be called murder.

But here is the million dollar question. What makes you think you are any better then the animals you eat or don&#39;t eat? By labelling it &#39;murder&#39;, it implies that we have moral standing over animals - that we should be responsible for them and our actions are somehow superior enough pass judgement on them. Since when do we control them? We are just as much part of the world as they are - stopping eating meat just because you think it is wrong is elitist. If you don&#39;t like the taste, then fine. Stopping just because it is the popular thing to do is elitist. Meat isn&#39;t murder, slaughter is murder.

Many places still rely on hunting and eating of animals. People need it to survive. In our society (the global north / northwest) there is definitly a problem, but that problem is farther reaching - stopping eating meat doesn&#39;t prove anything, the problem lays in the need to consume and control nature. If you are going to stop eating meat, you should stop consuming all food sold in a grocery store unless it is varified fair-trade and organic. Shop locallyl, shop consciously - imports should be standardized as fair-trade products. Buying products that aren&#39;t are supporting the same companies and people who are slaughtering the animals. There are very few companies in the world when it comes to the food industry - supporting one supports many more.

If you choose to stop eat meat then stop eating Oreo cookies or using Zest soap. If you choose to stop eating meat, then stop buying your vegetables from the same grocery stores that sell products from places like Jamaca, Chile and any other South America, Asian or Carribien country whose human workers are being exploited like the animals you are so nobely objecting the consumption of.

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2006, 04:44 AM
But here is the million dollar question. What makes you think you are any better then the animals you eat or don&#39;t eat? By labelling it &#39;murder&#39;, it implies that we have moral standing over animals - that we should be responsible for them and our actions are somehow superior enough pass judgement on them. Since when do we control them? We are just as much part of the world as they are - stopping eating meat just because you think it is wrong is elitist. If you don&#39;t like the taste, then fine. Stopping just because it is the popular thing to do is elitist. Meat isn&#39;t murder, slaughter is murder.
If like you imply we lack any moral standing over animals (personally I just think morals are an evolutionary adaptation to rationalize a lot of the ways we need to act) then being on the same page as animals, wouldn&#39;t it be murder to kill them, if it would be murder to kill a human?

[kjt1981]

Originally posted by Bill [email protected] 14 2004, 02:07 AM

Someone posted a film on here, i saw it when i first joined


I remember that film. Very disturbing, yet completely irrelevant when making a "case" against eating meat. It should be agreed that some companies need to clean their act up, however if I had a choice between those duck pancakes you mentioned and vegetables ONLY, I say fuck the animals. I really only care about the advancement of the HUMAN SPECIES. These animals in question, however cuddly they may be, are simply less important.
but isnt that the kind of attitude thats got the human race/the world in the mess its in now? Wasnt Hitlers theory along the lines of "i only care about the advancement of the Aryan race, all others are simply less important/inferior"?

end of the day we dont own the planet - when it decides to thin a few of us out through whatever disaster it wants to throw at us we cant stop it. We treat it like shit anyway as if we&#39;re so superior.

I also think its kind of amusing to see people talking about how its "only natural" for "primates" to eat meat, as they sit at their computers, tapping away (just like the apes in the Congo - eating steak all day, using the net all night. im led to beleive that there are also some tigers in tibet that can use the internet. They normally do it in their lunch break from work)..... although i admit this may be stretching the point slightly.

Maybe we should only eat things that would eat us....

[ichneumon]

The "experiment," proves nothing, because humans bodies can neither thrive on just veggies, or just meat. Eating only meat would result in massive weight loss, and you would not get the necessary vitamins; same goes from eating only plants, you wouldn&#39;t get the necessary vitamins, no matter how many ways you cut it, or how many vitamin supplements you ingest, it isn&#39;t gonna change that fact.

Humans are an omnivorous animal, thus we should eat both meat and plants. Animals kill other animals, they devour other animals, humans are animals thus we do the same.

I know that humans cultivate to much fish, and what have you, but most of the meat that is eaten are from animals we have surplus in, i.e., cows, chickens, and swines, so their really is nothing inherently wrong about eating meat.

"The natural law is tooth and claw."

animals do:

fuck their children and relatives
eat their own species
eat carrion with glee
eat feces

animals do NOT:

cook their food

if you want to live like an animal, do so. don&#39;t be suprised when you are tranked and put in a zoo.

vegetarians and vegans are usually much more healthy than omnivores. you can in fact get all of your vitamins from supplements and be healthy, but there&#39;s absolutely no need for that if you eat a varied diet - and by varied, i&#39;m not talking about meat. vegan diets are typically low in B12, but there are a number of ways of getting around that. i&#39;ve NEVER seen a vegetarian with rickets or scruvy.

where the hell do you come up with the idea of "surplus" animals? are you eating strays, pigeons and squirrels? or did you mean people? it&#39;s not surplus if someone gets paid to produce it.

this is the SCIENCE section. here, studies mean everything. lots of studies, by unbiased researchers with piles of statistical analyses. not mindless ad hominem crap or associations.

Bayliss-Smith,T.P., 1982, The Ecology of Agricultural Systems
Fluck, R.C. and Baird, C.D., 1980, Agricultural Energetics
Ikerd, John, et al., 1996, Evaluating the sustainability of alternative farming systems: a case study, American Journal of Alternative Agriculture, vol. 11, 1

[Disciple of Prometheus]

animals do:

fuck their children and relatives
eat their own species
eat carrion with glee
eat feces

animals do NOT:

cook their food

if you want to live like an animal, do so. don&#39;t be suprised when you are tranked and put in a zoo.

I never said I wanted to live like an animal, even though it is highly impossible to not act like one even in the concrete womb in which we have constructed around ourselves. My point being that even though we may not "fuck our relatives," and other typical things we associate with animal behavior, it does not mean that our own animalistic instincts do not evade us just because we deny them, nor does it mean we evade the total law of nature, and the way in which our bodies are designed.


where the hell do you come up with the idea of "surplus" animals? are you eating strays, pigeons and squirrels? or did you mean people? it&#39;s not surplus if someone gets paid to produce it.

Surplus meaning animals that are in bulk (duh?), and which are not likely to become endangered anytime in the near future, I mean do people produce fish? Not really, they cultivate fish. Yea, people get paid to sell meat, but that does that change the fact that there is an abundance of said animal, or make that animal different biologically so as it is bad for you, because it was raised to be sold? No.

People produce vegetables, and fruits, and there is things called "surplus crops," but oh I guess going with your logic it&#39;s not surplus because they were paid to produce it.


vegetarians and vegans are usually much more healthy than omnivores.

Yea, funny how for billions of years our species has been eating an unchanged omnivorian diet, and has evolved into what we are today, and I highly doubt that such an evolution would take place if we were all "unhealthy," eaters. This whole "vegan is healthier," crap is a modern "theory," that has become popular mainly because it shows a pretty picture, and exposes animal cruelity cases, but yet the populace doesn&#39;t realize just because we treat animals cruelty doesn&#39;t make meat bad for you to consume. The "vegan is healthier," theory has no firm scientific basis what so ever, because any study that proves other wise is NOT going to change our biological make up.


this is the SCIENCE section. here, studies mean everything. lots of studies, by unbiased researchers with piles of statistical analyses. not mindless ad hominem crap or associations.

I am well aware of that thank you, and a false study, is a false study. I mean if I did a study that the hypothesis was the world is hollow, and presented it in a scientific journal format, would that change the fact that the earth isn&#39;t hollow? No, false is false, and that experiment proved nothing.

[piet11111]

without our ability to hunt large animals for food we would never have been able to evolve as fast as we did.
to get rid of flesh consumption because of some "moral" issue is entirely illogical to me.

also what do you vegetarians propose doing with poeple that refuse to become vegetarians ?
especially how would illegalising flesh for food affect your self-proclaimed moral superiority ?

but the only concession i would make to the vegetarians is that animals do need to be treated better and get better food to eat and more room.
why ? because they taste better when they had a more natural life.

[Orange Juche]

"Sacred cows make the best hamburgers." - Abbie Hoffman

[barista.marxista]

I don&#39;t eat, due to the combined reasons of health, morals, and ecology. Not any one, but all three.

[LoneRed]

what are our canines for? to eat carrots?

[Donnie]

I think people have forgotten their relationship between humans and animals, it is important not to loose sight of the fact that humans are animals too. We can trace back our origins as humans, our ancestry merges with those of other primates.
Hominids emerged about 25 million years ago, from which evolved various species of apes including, about 250, 000 years ago, homo sapiens. Dental and other evidence suggests that like most modern species of apes, these hominids were primarily vegitarian.
Humans do not have sharp teeth, retractable claws or digestive systems common with carnivorses.

The hunting of larger animals for food, with the increased importance of meat in the diet, may have become more important when humans ecountered colder conditions in which plant foods were harder to come by, for example the Ice Age.

Also the popular image of bloodthirsty primatives slaughtering their way through the animal kingdom is nonsence. So called &#39;hunter gatherer&#39; societies should perhaps be called forager societies as the gathering of plants, nuts and grains was in most cases far more fundemental than hunting, and accounted for a higher of the regular diet.

[Ian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2006, 09:54 PM
Dental and other evidence suggests that like most modern species of apes, these hominids were primarily vegitarian.
Most modern primates are as omnivorous as us, including our closest relatives Chimpanzee and Orang Utans

[ichneumon]

the point about animal instincts:

humans deny many of their primal instincts. we have to, to make our societies work. we also do things unknown in any animal species, like spiteful behaviour and generalized altruistic behaviour. the fact that many animals kill and eat meat means nothing. we cannot behave like animals and build a planetary society. eating meat is likely one of the things we will have to give up.

about vegetarians being healthier:

evolution has hardwired your brain to eat protein and fat to the point of gross obesity. eating that kind of stuff is fun, and it will eventually kill you. millions of people obey their instincts and eat themselves into early graves every year. chimps will do it too - offer them meat at every meal and they will gobble it down, get fat and die.

about the studies:

find a study that shows that you can produce more food-days growing meat instead of vegies. better yet, find one that doesn&#39;t involve fossil fuels. and isn&#39;t sponsered by Beefeaters INC. if you have experimental data that suggests that the earth is hollow, well, i&#39;d consider it. that&#39;s what experiments are for. do journal articles declaring that the earth is solid make it solid? no. if you disbelieve experimental proof backed by good stats, you have religion. a false study is one in which the scientists make up the data. not one where you don&#39;t like the results.

i&#39;m not interested in the ethics of eating meat. if you wish to pay people to torture animals, i can&#39;t stop you. but all the arguements about how we can eat meat and feed the world assume an endless supply of fossil fuels. we need that land to grow *ethanol*. what do you want more, electricity or hamburgers?

sustainable economics rejects meat farming purely for economic and ecologial reasons. it won&#39;t work.

[Wiesty]

ya, i meat, thats why humans have canine teeth, their meant to eat meet

[piet11111]

eating meat is likely one of the things we will have to give up.

why ?

and how is eating meat "uncivilised" and since it obvious you oppose meat consumption would you make it illegal ?

and what punishment would you put on us "barbarians" ?

[Ian]

Sure maybe in the future there will be higher demand for meat (once everyone quits the halal/kosher diet ham sandwiches are going to be chic) scarcity of meat in a large human population does not lead to people cutting meat out of their diet, they simply eat smaller portions and develop ways to make their meat &#39;go further&#39;, arguably Chinese food still bears the marks of massive famines in its preparation methods.

[Sacha]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:37 PM
where the hell do you come up with the idea of "surplus" animals? are you eating strays, pigeons and squirrels? or did you mean people? it&#39;s not surplus if someone gets paid to produce it.


I have worked in the meat department of a grocery store for six years.

There is always more meat then what is consumed. I don&#39;t know if I can begin to count the hundreds of animals worth of meat I threw away myself, let alone the other members of my department.

There is ALWAYS a surplus of food or at least a surplus of waste.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:01 PM
also what do you vegetarians propose doing with poeple that refuse to become vegetarians ?
especially how would illegalising flesh for food affect your self-proclaimed moral superiority ?
Indeed. If "meat is murder", then, surely, a person who kills an animal should also be sentenced to a long jail term or death? Otherwise, meat isn&#39;t really murder, and it&#39;s only a bullshit slogan. And of course the meat itself isn&#39;t murder, but supposedly the fact that animals need to be slaughtered for it, is.

And to go further on the road of the logical consequences of "meat is murder" - then obviously people shouldn&#39;t be allowed to eat meat as well. If "meat is murder", people should be punished heavily for slaughtering an animal and/or eating the meat. Correct?

If meat isn&#39;t murder, but you&#39;re still against meat for moral reasons, then what is it? The amount of animals that are killed? The way they die? If people didn&#39;t eat meat, it would be okay for combine harvesters to crush the poor wee little rabbits for your vegetables, because at least cows aren&#39;t being killed in a horrible way anymore? Where do you draw the line? Or is your moral problem the suffering they&#39;re going through? Same question. The crushing of a small animal under a harvester is quite OK?

[ichneumon]

how is eating meat different from driving a hummer?

i worked at a grocery store - i used to give away "expired" food, including rotisserie chickens, to poor people rather than throw it away, as i was supposed to. eventually, they found out and fired me. fine, i lose a job, they go to hell (metaphorically, for the atheists).

is there surplus gas/petrol? don&#39;t people use it for completely mindless reasons? is there surplus money? same thing.

you will have to give up meat in the future because there isn&#39;t enough room on the planet for 9billion people and their livestock. hell, there&#39;s not enough room for that many people. very soon, we will have to *grow* fuel.

how will i punish you? how would you punish someone who spent &#036;10,000 on a pair of shoes? i don&#39;t care about the ethics of animal cruelty. rather, i do, but not in this forum. this is science, not philosophy.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

I eat meat mainly because it is tasty and provides me with protein. My position on this is that the animals we eat should be raised properly. It is a disgusting disgrace that in todays world chickens are 50000 to a barn, baby cows are locked up in cages, and cattle are given hormones. It is disgusting and I think it is a contributing reason to why many places are struggling to stop the spread of bird flu. Also the meat packing industry needs to become safer. Take a look at this: article

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060422/ap_on_...ng_a_new_jungle (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060422/ap_on_re_us/meatpacking_a_new_jungle)

[omegaflare]

Originally posted by Komrad J+Feb 6 2006, 07:54 AM--> (Komrad J @ Feb 6 2006, 07:54 AM)
Originally posted by FULL METAL JACKET+Feb 6 2006, 03:51 PM--> (FULL METAL JACKET &#064; Feb 6 2006, 03:51 PM)
Komrad [email protected] 31 2006, 06:36 AM
I&#39;m a vegetarian and I find meat eaters annoying
Wow so your pretty much annoyed with the majority of the world.[/b]
When they ask me retarded questions like "what do you eat?&#33;", yes.


OkaCrisis
Aren&#39;t we all?

To combat the rest of the "majority of the world" that annoys me so much, I am a Communist.

I am a reaction to all the things that make up the majority of the world that annoy me.

I suspect you are too&#33;.
Exactly. I&#39;m surprised FMJ is posting here if he already loves things how they are. Being communists in a capitalist world we should all be annoyed with the "majority of the world". [/b]
I&#39;m gone for a few months and we degenerate to elitism? Please. Communism is a movement of the masses, not of the esoteric few. If you can honestly say to yourself, "As a communist, i&#39;m annoyed with the majority of the world (Paraphrased)," then you are not in a position to be a communist. Rather, I think that Eco-Fascism is a bit more ready for you. Good luck with that.

[RedAnarchist]

Put whatever you want to in your mouth and don&#39;t judge others on what they eat, ok? Who cares if he east meat or shes a vegetarian - is our diet going to help us in our fight for a communist society?

[Fistful of Steel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2006, 11:39 PM
Who cares if he east meat or shes a vegetarian - is our diet going to help us in our fight for a communist society?
It will if our diets consist of massive amounts of steroids so we become Communist Supermen/women.

Really though, what a person eats is their own business. I only get mad when they get all self-righteous at me, and won&#39;t let me eat my meat in peace.

[Comrada J]

I get mad when they won&#39;t let me eat my tofu in peace.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 2 2006, 06:12 AM
What was the point of that statement?


is that rhetorical or a serious question?

[piet11111]

Originally posted by Komrad [email protected] 26 2006, 01:40 PM
I get mad when they won&#39;t let me eat my tofu in peace.
would you mind elaborating that ?

[Comrada J]

Sure. :)

A lot of the meat eaters here have posted about veggies giving them trouble. Well I&#39;ve been a vegetarian my whole of my life and I have never seen or done this. If anything the veggies are discriminated against, they are the minority after all. Especially where I live (Australia).

Meat eaters are always asking ridiculous questions, for example "what do you eat?" as if all humans are natural born carnivores. Then there&#39;s the awkward social occasions where meat is the only thing on the menu (just eat the bun my ass). And of course there&#39;s the bigot rednecks that will give you no rest after finding out you don&#39;t eat meat.

[redstar2000]

A "left split" from Veganism?

http://www.fruitarian.com/


Welcome to the Fruitarian site, the international meeting point for people who love to eat fruit. We eat raw fruit only…and we feel GREAT &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Up next, living by sucking rocks&#33; :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Red Axis]

I eat meat, yeah&#33;

[chimx]

meat&#39;s totally wuss.

[Red Axis]

Now I think animals have some rights, but they ain&#39;t human, so you can eat them. And meat is not wuss, red meat builds strength. Strength to punch the neo-Nazis down the street LOL.

[C_Rasmussen]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2006, 02:35 PM
meat&#39;s totally wuss.
What the fuck? How do you figure that meat is "wuss"?

[Black Dagger]

Because only wuss&#39; eat meat?

[piet11111]

ah yes the delightfull name calling when finally a side is almost out of arguments.

*dancing to the sounds of profanity*

[Black Dagger]

I&#39;m a meat-eater :P

[apathy maybe]

And you&#39;re a wuss :P

I know someone who can&#39;t ethically justify eating &#39;meat&#39;, but he does it anyway. That&#39;s like not being able to ethically justify raping small children but doing it anyway.

Eating animals that have died accidently or of natural causes is "ethical" in my opinion, but growing animals to kill then eat is not. (Unless you have genettically modified them.)


&#39;I just don&#39;t want to eat an animal that&#39;s standing there
inviting me to,&#39; said Arthur, &#39;It&#39;s heartless.&#39;

&#39;Better than eating an animal that doesn&#39;t want to be
eaten,&#39; said Zaphod.



(fuck the smilies that don&#39;t work ...)

[Comrada J]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2006, 03:41 AM
ah yes the delightfull name calling when finally a side is almost out of arguments.
Yes, "I eat meat, yeah&#33;" was a rational argument...

[RedAnarchist]

If you eat fruit, you are eating something that has seeds, which can grow into more trees. So you are eating something that "lives". If you eat vegetables, you are eating something that has grown on a plant. So you are eating part of something that "lives".

I&#39;m neutral on the whole food issue - i couldn&#39;t care less whther you eat only meat or only vegetables.

[Hiero]

I know someone who can&#39;t ethically justify eating &#39;meat&#39;, but he does it anyway. That&#39;s like not being able to ethically justify raping small children but doing it anyway.

No not really, way off. Eating meat is a common occurance in the world for survival and nutrition. Probably most meat eaters can&#39;t ethical justify eating their meat, or haven&#39;t even thought about it. I only thought about untill vegatarians brought the topic up. If people were going to educated themself in philosophy the last thing they would apply it to is eating meat.

On the other hand raping children shows alot of pyschological problems, the fact the person has a lack of ethics or morals is the problem. I am quite surprised you would even compare the two. Ones biology, the other is...raping a child.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27, 2006 09:05 pm

I know someone who can&#39;t ethically justify eating &#39;meat&#39;, but he does it anyway. That&#39;s like not being able to ethically justify raping small children but doing it anyway.

No not really, way off. Eating meat is a common occurance in the world for survival and nutrition. Probably most meat eaters can&#39;t ethical justify eating their meat, or haven&#39;t even thought about it. I only thought about untill vegatarians brought the topic up. If people were going to educated themself in philosophy the last thing they would apply it to is eating meat.

On the other hand raping children shows alot of pyschological problems, the fact the person has a lack of ethics or morals is the problem. I am quite surprised you would even compare the two. Ones biology, the other is...raping a child.
Why would philosophy apply itself lastly to matters of animal rights? I don&#39;t think that is true at all and would like to see some evidence for that assertion.

Raping children shows psychological problems? Where? How are you defining a psychological problem. If its having a psyche inconsistent with the majority of people, I would disagree with you. Like the above poster is not specific in how raping children and eating meat are ethnically equivalent, you went beyond assuming a negative and claimed it was proven. Where is the proof? How can you show that raping children results from a psychological problem and eating meat does not?

[Hiero]

Why would philosophy apply itself lastly to matters of animal rights? I don&#39;t think that is true at all and would like to see some evidence for that assertion.


Is animal rights a popular topic in philosophy? More popular then human life or religion?


Raping children shows psychological problems? Where? How are you defining a psychological problem. If its having a psyche inconsistent with the majority of people, I would disagree with you. Like the above poster is not specific in how raping children and eating meat are ethnically equivalent, you went beyond assuming a negative and claimed it was proven. Where is the proof? How can you show that raping children results from a psychological problem and eating meat does not?

Eating meat, is just eating. We do it to survive. Much like breathing or drinking water. We don&#39;t need to ethical reasons to eat meat. People only think we do because animals react to pain.

Raping a child is well, raping a child. You know, abusing power, hurting someone, humiliating someone for the rapist pleasure. If someone is able to rape a child then they have a problem.

Are you saying people who rape child do not have problems? Are you saying that eating meat is a pyschological problem? Or are you just wasting time with stupid posts?

I can&#39;t believe we are even discussing how raping a child and eating meat are two similar acts.

[Sir_No_Sir]

I eat meat for a couple reasons:
1.)Its simple biology.
2.)Even if I were to eat vegetables, itd still be something that was,technichally, living. I really dont care if you eat meat or not. My aunt who married into the family is a vegetarian, and she has some health problems(shes EXTREMLEY skinny), but she still manages to survive.

[luxemburg89]

I think I&#39;ll consider changing my ways when the animals create a trade union and protest. I&#39;m not entirely sure that members of the animal kingdom count towards the proletariat as of yet. Nah seriously, i know people feel strongly about animals rights and stuff; however i like the taste of meat, sorry if that makes me a bad person, but i gotta be honest

[nightwatchman]

I love meat I cant get enough of it, I only like cooked meat though, none of this raw fish shit. lol And I get the worst shits :( lol jk

[Vyru]

I used to eat meat, until I realised I was feasting on a corpse pumped full of chemicals and preservatives.

[Bretty123]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15, 2004 06:32 pm
I eat meat :P

its natural

if we had to eat vegatarion our body would be a lot different, we should have a longer bowel and a bigger flatulence.

and why do we have sharp teeth in the corner of our mouth? ;)
Our teeth aren&#39;t sharp. They are spaded much like herbivore&#39;s teeth.

Our digestive tracts are almost exactly the same length as a herbivore&#39;s digestive tract too.

This is one cause of colon cancer. People eat meat and our digestive tract is too long so it sits in our intestines and rots.

[Bretty123]

Originally posted by [email protected] 03, 2006 11:53 am
If you eat fruit, you are eating something that has seeds, which can grow into more trees. So you are eating something that "lives". If you eat vegetables, you are eating something that has grown on a plant. So you are eating part of something that "lives".

I&#39;m neutral on the whole food issue - i couldn&#39;t care less whther you eat only meat or only vegetables.
Plants do not have a nervous system, so they cannot consciously feel the pain.

Animals have a nervous system like humans.

[Bretty123]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20, 2006 08:20 am
what are our canines for? to eat carrots?
Human canine&#39;s are different then carnivorous canine&#39;s.

[Bretty123]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25, 2006 11:24 pm
Put whatever you want to in your mouth and don&#39;t judge others on what they eat, ok? Who cares if he east meat or shes a vegetarian - is our diet going to help us in our fight for a communist society?
Sorry about all the posts.

Actually in the current context we live in, eating meat is detrimental to any type of revolution because it promote&#39;s firstly artificial scarcity [as in the ability for capitalist firms in the meat industry to promote the global scarcity of food when there really is none, the problem is in our food system].

For every 10 pounds of grain, one pound of meat is produced.

In countries like Guatemala, seventy five percent of the children are malnourished. Yet the country allows 40 million pounds of meat be exported annually. This meat mostly goes to developed countries such as America and Europe.

The government&#39;s do not care about the starvation of it&#39;s own people. And you by eating meat are promoting this type of industry.

Imagine the amount of food we could have for other countries if we abolished the factory farming strategy.

Also water is another big issue. For you people that said you enjoy bacon you won&#39;t like these statistics.

about 1 million gallons of freshwater [as in water other countries need and do not have] PER DAY is used to wash FECES from the floors of pig factory farms.

I would go as far as saying that in a DEGREE of relativity to socialism, eating meat is counter-revolutionary.

If you have a question I am happy to provide answers.

[RedLenin]

I don&#39;t eat meat, I&#39;m a vegan. However, I am not one of those reactionary animal liberation vegans. My veganism is a personal dietary choice. Quite frankly, I find meat repulsive and I don&#39;t see any reason to eat any animal products. I am perfectly happy and healthy as a vegan and I don&#39;t see the need to eat a dead animal for my sustinence. I am more of an animal welfare advocate, and as such, I find the conditions of modern factory farming atrocious. So I choose not to participate in it.

Also, I should point out, the arguments against raising livestock for food are very good arguments and I believe they are right. So out of consistency, one may choose to be vegan. However, that is not going to change anything. Only the abolition of capitalism is going to solve that. Militant veganism is just another form of lifestylism and is not in any way useful. Vegetarianism or veganism is just a dietary choice, nothing more. Plus, I look forward to a time when meat is grown in the laboratory, making meat humane, environmentally sound, and just as tasty. :)

[Unquiet Youth]

I eat meat but I&#39;ve thought about giving it up for health reasons alone, I saw a statistic one time that said a vegetarian diet on average increaes the life span by about four years, this could be completely wrong though. Still, I don&#39;t think there are any ethical problems with eating meat.

[Bretty123]

Cobra90 I applaud your decision but the abolishment of capitalism will not destroy factory farming.

Factory farming could continue in other forms of economy and the only way to prevent the environmental, economic, and health disasters is to fight it through consumerism.

Our society is a consumerist society as it is, and we would all agree we work within the system to change it so inevitably in order to abolish inequality in food markets we need to change the way we consume.

The way to do this with factory farming is to cut it out of our diet and our purchases.

[RedLenin]

but the abolishment of capitalism will not destroy factory farming.
I agree that the animal agricultural industry will not cease to exist during socialism. However, I do believe that the horrific factory farm conditions will disapear. The reasons animals are treated so horribly in today&#39;s factory farms is because it is cheapest for the industry. Under a socialist system, when this is not an issue, I think that welfare standards would dramatically increase. Over time I think that as technology increases, animal slaughter may be replaced by laboratory grown meat and other such options.


Our society is a consumerist society as it is, and we would all agree we work within the system to change it so inevitably in order to abolish inequality in food markets we need to change the way we consume.
I used to think like that, but I think such a position is way too simplistic. In the end, it does not matter whether or not communists give up meat. Boycotting meat is not going to abolish factory farming, it will just create a new market for soya products, etc. It will not hurt the meat industry to any significant degree. As long as capitalism continues to exist, so will factory farming and all of the inhumanity and environmental devestation that comes with it. Only communism, along with technological advancement, will eliminate the animal agriculture industry. In the short term, we can hope for more humane treatment of livestock animals under a socialist system.

[Cryotank Screams]

Of course, it&#39;s only natural, why wouldn&#39;t I?

[Bretty123]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29, 2006 03:27 am

but the abolishment of capitalism will not destroy factory farming.
I agree that the animal agricultural industry will not cease to exist during socialism. However, I do believe that the horrific factory farm conditions will disapear. The reasons animals are treated so horribly in today&#39;s factory farms is because it is cheapest for the industry. Under a socialist system, when this is not an issue, I think that welfare standards would dramatically increase. Over time I think that as technology increases, animal slaughter may be replaced by laboratory grown meat and other such options.


Our society is a consumerist society as it is, and we would all agree we work within the system to change it so inevitably in order to abolish inequality in food markets we need to change the way we consume.
I used to think like that, but I think such a position is way too simplistic. In the end, it does not matter whether or not communists give up meat. Boycotting meat is not going to abolish factory farming, it will just create a new market for soya products, etc. It will not hurt the meat industry to any significant degree. As long as capitalism continues to exist, so will factory farming and all of the inhumanity and environmental devestation that comes with it. Only communism, along with technological advancement, will eliminate the animal agriculture industry. In the short term, we can hope for more humane treatment of livestock animals under a socialist system.
It&#39;s not a reductionist position because it really does make a difference&#33;

I&#39;ve been vegan for a couple years now and I&#39;ve managed to change at least a half dozen people within that timeframe and my influence has reached many more who were already considering it as well.

It&#39;s a matter of influence.

[Jazzratt]

I eat meat, animal rights justifactions for being vegetarian don&#39;t hold much water with me. I&#39;m proudly anthropocentric.

[Sentinel]

Please vote in the new Do you eat meat?-poll (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=59426&st=0&#entry1292218801)&#33;

Also feel free to continue the discussions in this thread in the new one.