can you blame the soldiers

[Chewillneverdie]

I was talking to some war vets, with cancer, fucking agent orange. It came t my attention, that you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game. The soldiers in Iraq are undergoing hell, jesus look at how the troop suicide rates have gone up, fighting for a stupid cause, hot sun, everyone could be an enemy, your friends have all died. Officers are a diff thing tho, they suck ass, lots of people die because of their reckless gung-ho attitude.

[redstar2000]

It came to my attention that you really can't blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.

Oh?

Aren't they all volunteers?

Didn't they all sign up thinking it would be "really cool" to be professional killers for U.S. imperialism?

"Be All That You Can Be" and all that?

Or were they all really a bunch of retards who thought they could get easy money to go to college? After all, "you gotta get ahead in life", right?

No matter what you have to do, right?


The soldiers in Iraq are undergoing hell...

Not nearly as much as the Iraqis are.

And don't professional killers "deserve hell", metaphorically speaking?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Intifada]

you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.

yes we can. they are the ones enforcing this illegal occupation. they are carrying out the american government's imperialist policies. as redstar2000 said, THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS.


The soldiers in Iraq are undergoing hell

rightly so.

[shyguywannadie]

Yes, as has been said before, these people want to do this, you can say what you want about them needing the money, but dont they have morals?

Every yankee soldier deserves to die, it pleases me to see on the news when yankee soldiers get killed.

[Sabocat]

It came t my attention, that you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.


Ahh...words of wisdom from our resident apologist for the U.$ Army.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:10 AM

It came t my attention, that you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.


Ahh...words of wisdom from our resident apologist for the U.$ Army.
Idealism is great, but don't expect people to hold to it when they are poor and hungry.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 05:28 PM
Idealism is great, but don't expect people to hold to it when they are poor and hungry.
Actually that is the very time which people become the most idealistic. Look at Argentina, look at Russia, look at the Paris uprising. All of these situations were arised by being hungry and poor.

Being hungry and poor shows the system up for being what it is. As soon as people dont have these things, food and money, they begin to question reality, they question the system, and many times they demand its changed.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Mar 13 2004, 02:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Anarchist Tension @ Mar 13 2004, 02:48 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 05:28 PM
Idealism is great, but don&#39;t expect people to hold to it when they are poor and hungry.
Actually that is the very time which people become the most idealistic. Look at Argentina, look at Russia, look at the Paris uprising. All of these situations were arised by being hungry and poor.

Being hungry and poor shows the system up for being what it is. As soon as people dont have these things, food and money, they begin to question reality, they question the system, and many times they demand its changed. [/b]
I think people would be more concerned with putting food in their stomachs then fighting imperialism is what I am saying. Fighting imperialism is all fine and dandy, but you&#39;ve got to do what you&#39;ve got to do.

[Bianconero]

We know that these children of imperialist America are taught to be &#39;fine Americans&#39;, to always obey their owners&#39; (the capitalists) orders. They are policemen. They have no will, as they have never experienced real education.

We can not blame sheep for their existance. They have never learned about why the war was initiated.

Policemen don&#39;t have an own will, for that we can&#39;t blame them.

In spite of this, they serve the interests of the reactionaries, which makes them our enemies.

[Xvall]

Every yankee soldier deserves to die, it pleases me to see on the news when yankee soldiers get killed.

Calm down man.

Anyways, if you&#39;re talking about a war wherein people were drafted or forced into conscription, you might have somewhat of a case. In this instance, however, these people are voulenteers who should have been prepared to go wherever to hell their government wants them to. If that means jumping off a cliff, it is their national responsibility. They knew that joining a military can lead people to fight in these things called &#39;wars&#39;. The brought this upon themselves.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 13 2004, 08:36 PM

Every yankee soldier deserves to die, it pleases me to see on the news when yankee soldiers get killed.

Calm down man.
Rebellion against parents/society gone terriblly wrong&#33;

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:38 PM

you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.

yes we can. they are the ones enforcing this illegal occupation. they are carrying out the american government&#39;s imperialist policies. as redstar2000 said, THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS.


The soldiers in Iraq are undergoing hell

rightly so.
Ironically, you can say terrorist are terrorist not because they just hate anyone who does not follow their ideology but because they "have to and are forced into" becoming terrorist.

[SlimJin]

Someone who goes off to a foreign country and kills people because they are told to are no worse than a man who blows himself up for Allah&#33; Only difference is you dont want to like the one who is American

[Intifada]

Ironically, you can say terrorist are terrorist not because they just hate anyone who does not follow their ideology but because they "have to and are forced into" becoming terrorist. ]

can you please clarify what you are trying to say?

[Chewillneverdie]

People in the US grow up with notions that their country is perfect and they join the army to help out the world, like the media portrays the army doing. Ever talked to a Vet, usually they have very bitter reactions to what they had to do. US troops havent the slightest idea what is really going on. So we blame them? Shouldnt we blame the media for it? Uncle Sam? the President? Nam vets are the most interesting to talk to, cus alot of them are still pissed about their government. Until about 2 years ago, the government never owned up to dropping Agent Orange on its own troops. In this country college is expensive as hell now, and for alot of people the only way to afford it is through the Army. Im not taking up for the army, I dont support the war in Iraq or the whole War on "Terrorism" I just cant see the reason to hating the tiny people, when if you want to blame anyone, dont blame the troops, blame the Gen.&#39;s the Officers, guess what happens if your a grunt and you dont follow an order, you go through life with that dark cloud of a dishonorable discharge on your head. Thats how they scare the troops into doing what they want to once they are in the military

[Vinny Rafarino]

People in the US grow up with notions that their country is perfect and they join the army to help out the world, like the media portrays the army doing. Ever talked to a Vet, usually they have very bitter reactions to what they had to do. US troops havent the slightest idea what is really going on. So we blame them?


Excusing social laziness with "unavoidable ignorance" (??)...this is senseless. These people knew EXACTLY what they were getting into and furthermore, I reckon all of those "poor old vets" (the same ones that still refer to blacks as negroes because they are "too old and set in their ways") only whine now as they are the brink of death and somehow want to make good with their maker "just in case". Either that or they don&#39;t have any balls.

Well boo-hoo for these useless relics.


Shouldnt we blame the media for it?

Please mate, the "blame the media" excuse for everything is as silly as Jerry Garcia branded neck ties.
Leave the "blame the media" excuses to the silly liberal&#39;s trying to save the whales.



Uncle Sam? the President?

How about get your bottle up and tell these old fucks where they can stick their purple hearts.




Nam vets are the most interesting to talk to, cus alot of them are still pissed about their government. Until about 2 years ago, the government never owned up to dropping Agent Orange on its own troops


Nope. They are merely your first experience with old people my friend. I will let you in on a little secret amigo, ALL OLD PEOPLE are cranky and pissed off about everything. (at least the ones that are not FORTUNATE enough to get Alzheimer&#39;s) Why? Imagine having to wear a diaper so you don&#39;t have feces and urine dripping down your leg in the Deli. That is of course if you actually have enough energy to make it past the orderly that treats you like a child because he WIPES YOU ARSE FOR YOU.



Until about 2 years ago, the government never owned up to dropping Agent Orange on its own troops


"Yo Eight Ball, I know this shit we are sleeping in is designed for MASSIVE DEFORESTATION (the governmental word for weed poison) but do you really think it&#39;s safe to suck down all day long? I mean damn young blood, this shit makes round-up look like Kool aid you dig? HEY KOOL AID&#33;&#33;&#33;"

"Shit jack, I heard it makes a good spice for this shitty ass can of beans these fucking pricks keep making me eat, I mean the CO whould never LIE to his own troops right? "Where is that motherfucker anyway????"

"Fuck IT- AND those motherfuckers man, lets go get HIGH, HIGH. Don&#39;t forget to sprinkle some of that Orange shit in the joint. That shit REALLY fucks you up."


Remain ignorant and you WILL become expendable. Don&#39;t cry like a ***** once you have been "expended".




In this country college is expensive as hell now, and for alot of people the only way to afford it is through the Army


Sounds like SOMEONE on top REALLY knows what he is doing.



I just cant see the reason to hating the tiny people, when if you want to blame anyone, dont blame the troops, blame the Gen.&#39;s the Officers, guess what happens if your a grunt and you dont follow an order, you go through life with that dark cloud of a dishonorable discharge on your head. Thats how they scare the troops into doing what they want to once they are in the military


Reamining soft to these people is exactly what THEY want.

[Chewillneverdie]

but why waste time with chump change, these people are nothing compared to generals. Oh and my grandpa killed his lt. because he was a racist lol. Chomsky is old as hell and hes not a useless relic.

[RedCeltic]

Many people here seem to have a two dimensional view of the world. That’s disheartening things aren’t always as easy as you try to make it out to be.

There are elements at work that need to be taken into account here.

For starters there is what is known as the “poverty draft”. Many people who find that for whatever reason they just can’t get ahead in the world, there are no job opportunities where they live, maybe they have poor education or they are the wrong color and end up joining the military. Being prior US Navy I can vouch for this. Poverty was partly why I joined, and I also found that predominantly ethnic minorities join the military, not because they are more blood thirsty or patriotic than others but because it offers them a way out of a desperate situation.

I have to admit that since September 11, people going into the military do so for very different reasons than people I served with. During the 80’s and 90’s we were mostly at peacetime. People could be pretty secure that they would go in, serve their 2 – 4 years and get out in one peace without seeing much combat. Even when we did have any real conflicts like the gulf war in 91, it further perpetuated this myth that you could be pretty secure that no conflict would occur.

Of course admittedly, I served in the NAVY, not the ARMY or USMC. There’s a difference there actually. Not being anywhere near a rifle or combat seems pretty appealing to many who join the Navy. You can travel more, learn a skill live off the government and be miles away from anything your ship is busy destroying. Of course there is a kind of rebellious spirit among sailors that I found out after getting in, and we all seemed to find a common bond in hating the Navy. It seems like the majority of people I met when I was in the service was like me… they thought it was a good idea till they got in and than realized too late they made a big mistake.

The whole patriotic propaganda crap really works for marines and army people. The recent wars we’ve been involved in have all been pretty much shown as “video war games” no real death and destruction have been shown. Serving in the military all seems so noble and good. Everyone knows at least one person in their family that has served and has noble stories to tell that thrill child like imaginations of being some kind of hero.

The stories my father told me however were more about how the US Army drafted him and put him in some hell hole in Georgia during the civil rights conflict and how he wished he could take off his uniform and join the other side.

The day I came home and told my dad I join the Navy he almost punched me in the face. But than came to understand that I could get a lot out of it for basically volunteering to be a prisoner for four years. (we wear the same uniforms in the Navy as prisoners).

I think it is the duty of each veteran to come home and tell the truth about the military to as many people as they can. They don’t necessarily have to join Veterans for peace, but they do have to help stop the cycle of young able bodied youths signing their lives away to become government tools for destruction and exploitation of other people around the world.

There’s talk now of re instituting the draft. You know what that will lead to&#33; Their fantasyland will be shattered. No longer will they have young impressionable kids coming in buying their load of bullshit and coming out to tell people that joining the Military is a good idea, or that we’re doing good things in Iraq. People forced into the military have an uncanny ability to tell the truth, just ask my dad how they used him to point a bayonet at civil rights demonstrators in Georgia.

[BuyOurEverything]

can you please clarify what you are trying to say?

I believe what he was trying to say is that terrorist (and as much as I hate this word, I feel that its meaning in this context is understood) apologists, such as yourself, often claim that Islamic terrorists are created and influenced by US imperialism and poverty, and it is the US government&#39;s fault for &#39;creating&#39; these terrorists. The US is than to blame for terrorist attacks, because they bring it on themselves. When it comes to US terrorists (or soldiers), your ilk than claims that it is entirely their fault for joining the army and that they absolutely deserve to die.

[Le Libérer]

Originally posted by el_profe+Mar 13 2004, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Mar 13 2004, 08:58 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 01:38 PM

you really cant blame the pawns in this fucked up chess game.

yes we can. they are the ones enforcing this illegal occupation. they are carrying out the american government&#39;s imperialist policies. as redstar2000 said, THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS.


The soldiers in Iraq are undergoing hell

rightly so.
Ironically, you can say terrorist are terrorist not because they just hate anyone who does not follow their ideology but because they "have to and are forced into" becoming terrorist. [/b]
These pawns you are talking about are raping their female counterparts. How many women are coming forward with these charges from the front lines??

That should say something about your pawns mentality&#33;

[Intifada]

I believe what he was trying to say is that terrorist (and as much as I hate this word, I feel that its meaning in this context is understood) apologists, such as yourself

first of all i do not condone terrorism, in any form, whether it is al qaeda, or america.


claim that Islamic terrorists are created and influenced by US imperialism and poverty, and it is the US government&#39;s fault for &#39;creating&#39; these terrorists.

what is happening, in say, iraq, is a result of US imperialism. america labels those who fight back terrorists, but they are not. they have the right to protect their country from foreign invaders. when these people kill innocent iraqi civilians, i will condemn their actions. when they kill an american soldier, it is perfectly legitimate.


When it comes to US terrorists (or soldiers), your ilk than claims that it is entirely their fault for joining the army and that they absolutely deserve to die.

the soldiers in iraq are killing innocent people. the iraqis have a right to fight back. so, when an american "soldier" is killed, i have no sympathy for him/her.

the americans are the invaders, they started this war. the iraqis who fight back (who are labeled terrorists), are not doing anything wrong.

[Xvall]

Everyone keep in mind that the SS were pawns of Hitler. Nonetheless, they were the ones butchering children.

[RedCeltic]

The SS and the general enlisted German infantryman are not the same thing.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:13 PM
The SS and the general enlisted German infantryman are not the same thing.
I agree on that, and likewise, I believe that being in the US armed forces is excusable due to the fact that people (myself included) could be drafted in de facto by what RedCeltic refered to as the poverty draft, however, being in the US special forces is not excusable, as partaking in one of those organizations shows that the individual clearly is in moral support of US imperialism.

[redstar2000]

A bit of confusion here...

The SS during World War II had both regular infantry divisions that fought in the front lines under the command of the General Staff as well as more notorious sections that ran the Gestapo, the concentration camps, and the death camps.

The regular German soldier was not an enlisted man at all; he was a draftee.

As far as I know, only the "really bad guys" in the SS were volunteers.


I believe that being in the US armed forces is excusable due to the fact that people (myself included) could be drafted in de facto by what RedCeltic referred to as the poverty draft...

No, that only applies to poor young men and women who don&#39;t know any better.

You do know better...therefore that excuse does not apply to you.

You know that any service in an imperialist army is utterly reprehensible...therefore you can&#39;t do it unless you&#39;re prepared to knowingly serve the class enemy.

Even if your only alternative is to beg on the streets, you cannot kill people on behalf of U.S. imperialism.

No matter how poor you are.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 08:51 AM
A bit of confusion here...

The SS during World War II had both regular infantry divisions that fought in the front lines under the command of the General Staff as well as more notorious sections that ran the Gestapo, the concentration camps, and the death camps.

The regular German soldier was not an enlisted man at all; he was a draftee.

As far as I know, only the "really bad guys" in the SS were volunteers.


I believe that being in the US armed forces is excusable due to the fact that people (myself included) could be drafted in de facto by what RedCeltic referred to as the poverty draft...

No, that only applies to poor young men and women who don&#39;t know any better.

You do know better...therefore that excuse does not apply to you.

You know that any service in an imperialist army is utterly reprehensible...therefore you can&#39;t do it unless you&#39;re prepared to knowingly serve the class enemy.

Even if your only alternative is to beg on the streets, you cannot kill people on behalf of U.S. imperialism.

No matter how poor you are.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

It is much easier on the internet to tell someone you dont know that they should beg on the streets rather then join the army, but its much harder to do it. It is not difficult to stand there on your high morals when you are not in such a situation, which you are not in. Fighting for US imperialism [B]IS[B] morally reprehesible, but just like prostitutes, people might find them in a situation they don&#39;t like that they need to be in just to survive. Doing what is right is great, but keeping food in my belly and a roof over my head is my top priority.

[bunk]

there volunteers now so it&#39;s their problem BUT Vietnam they were conscripts and nthat was not their problem

[SlimJin]

I believe they are exactly the same as a lot of people on here, looking for something to fight for. Some of them truly believe that the US is out to help other countries really believing that the humanitarian missions which they are deployed on are really making a good difference&#33; Just try to step inside of their shoes for once and try to think the way some of them do and they arent all bad

[Vinny Rafarino]

Chomsky is old as hell and hes not a useless relic.



That my friend is a matter of opinion. I personally find him to be a relic AND a windbag.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 06:45 PM
I believe they are exactly the same as a lot of people on here, looking for something to fight for. Some of them truly believe that the US is out to help other countries really believing that the humanitarian missions which they are deployed on are really making a good difference&#33; Just try to step inside of their shoes for once and try to think the way some of them do and they arent all bad
Actually, I would suggest many American soldiers are brutal, senseless, national-chauvanist pigs who get fired up by racist and violent thought. If they do not possess or develop this mindset a lot of them would find the American army a reprehensible occupation. They see their enemies as enemies because the U.S. government tells the American soldiers that so and so are enemies because they are a threat to the U.S. and that the U.S. is the most virtuous and greatest country in the world, of course this is not true. All the ideas the U.S. army and its soldiers feed on are old, useless, barbaric ideas and as such they are all enemies. Of course most of them are not accountable for the ideas that have been put into their heads but it does the world greater good if we fight them in whatever way we can. Often that means killing them.

So, they can&#39;t have all the blame. But they should still be fought against.

[truthaddict11]

i would rather starve on the streets then be an imperialist goon. Midnightmaruader I&#39;m poor too, I have no money for college, i live in a shithole for an apartment, pretty much live paycheck to paycheck right now but that doesnt mean I think things will be better if I agree to kill for Imperialism. Get a job ,you are graduating from High School soon rather have it be a minimum wage slave job then the bastard alternative.

[redstar2000]

Doing what is right is great, but keeping food in my belly and a roof over my head is my top priority.

So every scab in history has spoken.

When the Iraqis blow your head off, rest assured there will be no elegies for you here.

If anything, we&#39;ll celebrate.


I believe they are exactly the same as a lot of people on here, looking for something to fight for.

I suppose that could be true of some...the "super patriot" types. But I think the odious MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr is closer to the mark on this one: "I&#39;m for me first & fuck everybody else".

It&#39;s really far and away the most common attitude in advanced capitalist countries.


Just try to step inside of their shoes for once and try to think the way some of them do and they aren&#39;t all bad.

Perhaps...but they aren&#39;t very "good" either. Prior to the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, you could make an argument that they didn&#39;t knowingly sign up to be killers.

But now they know&#33; Everyone who now joins the U.S. armed forces knows what they&#39;re getting into...they&#39;re signing up for war someplace.

They&#39;re gambling that "food & shelter" won&#39;t cost them their lives...that they&#39;ll be the killers and not the killed.

It&#39;s a bet I hope they lose.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Chewillneverdie]

okay heres a what if situation, what if your a US soldier, and 2 gunmen are hiding behind a large group of people, and they have picked off 3 of your best friends, what would you do?

[Xvall]

Shoot them, but that still doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s right. Keep in mind that the only reason the gunmen are shooting anyone in the first place is because me and my friends willingly invaded their territory.

[Dirty Commie]

You&#39;d be surprised how many people join the army only to get the free college, or because it&#39;s the only job that&#39;s profitable that they can get. I&#39;m not excusing joining an organization that exists to fight bad wars, but to say that all the people who join are pawns of imperialism isn&#39;t accurate.

[SlimJin]

What I don&#39;t understand is, is that while you are sitting here criticizing them it would make more sense to attempt to try to understand them then counter their beliefs in a way that they could understand and allow them to see the truth in it all. This way once you understand them and they see that they can come to realize that whatever you are offering to them is better than whatever they believe now and that you have their best interests in mind. As long as you sit back and criticize them without trying to free them of any prior misconceptions they have of Socialism or Communism they will continue their service in the military without giving a second thought to your criticisms&#33;

[redstar2000]

I&#39;m not excusing joining an organization that exists to fight bad wars, but to say that all the people who join are pawns of imperialism isn&#39;t accurate.

What word would you use?

"Fool" seems somehow...inadequate.


What I don&#39;t understand is, is that while you are sitting here criticizing them, it would make more sense to attempt to try to understand them, then counter their beliefs in a way that they could understand and allow them to see the truth in it all.

That&#39;s a wonderful idea...just how do you propose we do that?

I doubt if there are any message boards set up for occupation soldiers in Iraq to debate with anti-war folks back home.

And just look at the difficulties we have right here -- trying to explain to people who call themselves "leftists" why joining an imperialist army is a "no-no".

Even those who "ought" to know better are willing to put their "personal suck-cess" above their so-called "leftism".

Mind you, these are people who haven&#39;t even signed up yet...and they already start to sound like clones of Donald Rumsfeld.

American military power "can be a force for good". *pukes*

Under the circumstances, therefore, I intend to sit here at my keyboard and give them hell until they change their minds or run and hide.

If they want "understanding" or "praise", let them go hang out at jarhead.gov or Stormfront.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I suppose that could be true of some...the "super patriot" types. But I think the odious MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr is closer to the mark on this one: "I&#39;m for me first & fuck everybody else".

It&#39;s really far and away the most common attitude in advanced capitalist countries.

That is the attitude we are forced to have. I can care about everyone all I want to, but that isn&#39;t going to keep me fed and clothed. We can have all the ideals we want, and we can strive for them, fight for them, and hopefully one day acheive them, but until then, we live under capitalism, and we need to look out for ourselves or WE WILL DIE&#33;. I don&#39;t see anyone rushing to help me feed, clothe, house, and someday make something of myself, so I have to somehow do it myself as best I can.


Just try to step inside of their shoes for once and try to think the way some of them do and they aren&#39;t all bad.

Perhaps...but they aren&#39;t very "good" either. Prior to the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, you could make an argument that they didn&#39;t knowingly sign up to be killers.

But now they know&#33; Everyone who now joins the U.S. armed forces knows what they&#39;re getting into...they&#39;re signing up for war someplace.

They&#39;re gambling that "food & shelter" won&#39;t cost them their lives...that they&#39;ll be the killers and not the killed.

It&#39;s a bet I hope they lose.

They are just people trying to survive. Many people don&#39;t like what they are doing, but they do it because there are no other options for them. They want revoltution more then anyone else, it&#39;s just they are so powerless. Don&#39;t blame them, blame the system that forced them into it.

[Stapler]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:38 PM
yes we can. they are the ones enforcing this illegal occupation. they are carrying out the american government&#39;s imperialist policies. as redstar2000 said, THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS.

Nad now that they are ovver there, and they realize what they are doing - it&#39;s not like they can magically predict wars - they can&#39;t really do anything for themselves, if they try, they can be executed.

[dark fairy]

i didn&#39;t read what everyone wrote but, i feel that people are just pushed and then they do stupid shit... but the vets well them their just fucked up in the head because every so often they&#39;ll get flash backs and shit :unsure:

[redstar2000]

I don&#39;t see anyone rushing to help me feed, clothe, house, and someday make something of myself, so I have to somehow do it myself as best I can.

The "something" that you will "make of yourself" is called professional killer.

Assuming that you survive occupation duty or combat, then you can come back home and get a job as a cop or prison guard...also professional killers.

It is indeed, as you maintain, your life and you are free to dispose of it as you please.

Just quit calling yourself a "leftist", that&#39;s all.

You disgrace the term.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I refer to "making something of myself" as going to college, not one of the wonderful jobs you mentioned above, and no, I&#39;m most likely not going to join the military. I am saying that I would understand if a person had to.

[SittingBull47]

how can you really say it&#39;s entirely the soldiers fault. They&#39;re not the ones telling others to bomb a town to hell, one that MIGHT harbor a POSSIBLE terrorist. Granted, the soldiers sometimes take a willful part in the killing but I know of many that feel like a trapped depressed killer forced to do something they don&#39;t want to do.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:47 AM

I don&#39;t see anyone rushing to help me feed, clothe, house, and someday make something of myself, so I have to somehow do it myself as best I can.

The "something" that you will "make of yourself" is called professional killer.

Assuming that you survive occupation duty or combat, then you can come back home and get a job as a cop or prison guard...also professional killers.

It is indeed, as you maintain, your life and you are free to dispose of it as you please.

Just quit calling yourself a "leftist", that&#39;s all.

You disgrace the term.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
Right, place the blame on the puppet rather then the hand that is controlling it. Gotcha.

[redstar2000]

...I&#39;m most likely not going to join the military.

Excellent&#33; :D


...but I know of many that feel like a trapped depressed killer forced to do something they don&#39;t want to do.

Interesting folks you hang out with.

In any event, since you know them, you simply have to tell them the truth...which is to stop what you&#39;re doing right now, dammit&#33;

Yes, there will be unpleasant consequences...but that&#39;s the penalty for doing something stupid (joining the military) in the first place.

Once you realize that you&#39;ve been tricked into doing something evil, your first priority has to be to immediately stop doing it.

The longer you knowingly participate in evil, the worse piece of shit you become.

"Being determines consciousness" as the old buzzard at the British Museum wrote...and he was right. Again.


Right, place the blame on the puppet rather than the hand that is controlling it. Gotcha.

Puppet? Or lackey?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

When you live in the US, no matter what you do, you are supporting imperialism. Weather it is beomg a soldier, making the guns, or paying the taxes that fund the whole operation. Being any part of it makes you no better then the person who pulled the trigger himself. The capitalist system is a vicious game of dog eat dog look out for yourself and screw everyone else life or death (you get the picture). While we live under the system we have to play by their rules, and nothing will ever happen if we are too busy flipping burgers and trying to doing the moral thing to worry about achieving our goals. If that means joining the military to order to help pay for college, which in turn helps you get the education to become the CEO of a major conglomorate that pays 1 billion&#036;/year, which you can then pour into funding the revolution, then the ends justify the means, and I assure you, with funds even to the tune of a few million, we could get things done. Granted having that kind of power and influence has a strong republicanizing effect on people, if even one such person could see things the way we did, then that would be an incredible change of fortune for all of us.

[redstar2000]

US &#39;anti-war&#39; soldier awaits fate

A US soldier who has refused to return to serve in Iraq is expected to learn whether he will be charged with desertion later on Wednesday.

Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia, of the Florida National Guard, has asked to be considered a conscientious objector.

"This is an oil-driven war, and I don&#39;t think any soldier signs up to fight for oil," Mr Mejia said.

The maximum sentence for desertion is five years in prison.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/3518720.stm

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

"This is an oil-driven war, and I don&#39;t think any soldier signs up to fight for oil," Mr Mejia said.

Guy seems to have his head screwed on right at least...

Is this sort of view a majority or a minority? Could the other soldier be too afraid of court martial to speak up? I hope so.

[redstar2000]

When you live in the US, no matter what you do, you are supporting imperialism. Whether it is being a soldier, making the guns, or paying the taxes that fund the whole operation. Being any part of it makes you no better than the person who pulled the trigger himself.

The short version of this argument runs: If all are guilty, then no one is guilty.

Nope. Nice try though.


While we live under the system we have to play by their rules...

Again, no. How far we can go in breaking those rules is debatable...but people broke them even under the Third Reich.

And got away with it.


If that means joining the military to order to help pay for college, which in turn helps you get the education to become the CEO of a major conglomerate that pays &#036;1 billion/year, which you can then pour into funding the revolution...

A preposterous fantasy. You&#39;d have a better chance searching for a "ring of power".

You don&#39;t get to be a CEO of a major corporation without becoming an unspeakably ruthless bastard.

The only "revolution" you&#39;d fund would be a Nazi "revolution".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 06:51 AM

The regular German soldier was not an enlisted man at all; he was a draftee.

As far as I know, only the "really bad guys" in the SS were volunteers.



RedStar

"Enlisted" does not meen volunteer, it means non commissioned.

I admit that I do not know much about German ranks and units during
the second world war, but I was saying that regular German infantrymen
typically serving at death camps.

Germans also had centeries of militerism that propagandized the desire to
enter the militery. Serving in the army, even if drafted was seen as a great and
noble thing to fight and defend the fatherland, dispite whatever political feelings
one had about Hitler and the Nazi party. Many just served because there was a
sence of duty and responsibility. Manytimes people have a history of generations
in their family that have served.

[shyguywannadie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 02:55 PM
how can you really say it&#39;s entirely the soldiers fault. They&#39;re not the ones telling others to bomb a town to hell, one that MIGHT harbor a POSSIBLE terrorist. Granted, the soldiers sometimes take a willful part in the killing but I know of many that feel like a trapped depressed killer forced to do something they don&#39;t want to do.
Everyone can say NO.

Yes there will be consequences, but if someone told me to kill an innocent person or i&#39;ll be in deep shit, id tell them to go fuck themselves, I will NEVER kill an innocent person.

Its the same for the soldiers, they should say "NO&#33;"

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 06:46 AM

If that means joining the military to order to help pay for college, which in turn helps you get the education to become the CEO of a major conglomerate that pays &#036;1 billion/year, which you can then pour into funding the revolution...

A preposterous fantasy. You&#39;d have a better chance searching for a "ring of power".

You don&#39;t get to be a CEO of a major corporation without becoming an unspeakably ruthless bastard.

The only "revolution" you&#39;d fund would be a Nazi "revolution".
Yeah, unfortuately thats the problem. As for you shy guy, saying no will only get you time in the brig, and even if you do, there are plenty of people around you willing to say yes anyways.

[Stapler]

Originally posted by shyguywannadie+Mar 17 2004, 01:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shyguywannadie @ Mar 17 2004, 01:16 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 02:55 PM
how can you really say it&#39;s entirely the soldiers fault. They&#39;re not the ones telling others to bomb a town to hell, one that MIGHT harbor a POSSIBLE terrorist. Granted, the soldiers sometimes take a willful part in the killing but I know of many that feel like a trapped depressed killer forced to do something they don&#39;t want to do.
Everyone can say NO.

Yes there will be consequences, but if someone told me to kill an innocent person or i&#39;ll be in deep shit, id tell them to go fuck themselves, I will NEVER kill an innocent person.

Its the same for the soldiers, they should say "NO&#33;" [/b]
Taking into account that all soldiers in combat are on large doses of &#39;go pills&#39; - speed - they really aren&#39;t in full control of what they are doing.

A large portion of the armed forces are people who wanted a college education, and were forced into the military because any other careers that their background had left them involved Wal-Mart or Ceptic tank scrubbing. Although joining the military is about signing up to kill , very few people take that into account when they join the Armed Forces, they figure they&#39;ll be out before any fighting starts. Additionally, they are so well brainwashed by the army&#39;s propaganda machine that they are barely able to think for themselves, the training process was designed to turn them into robots, and destroy their will. Induvidual soldiers aren&#39;t to blame for the existence of this ridiculous empire, the system that forces honest people into slavery is.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 07:55 AM
A large portion of the armed forces are people who wanted a college education, and were forced into the military because any other careers that their background had left them involved Wal-Mart or Ceptic tank scrubbing. Although joining the military is about signing up to kill , very few people take that into account when they join the Armed Forces, they figure they&#39;ll be out before any fighting starts. Additionally, they are so well brainwashed by the army&#39;s propaganda machine that they are barely able to think for themselves, the training process was designed to turn them into robots, and destroy their will. Induvidual soldiers aren&#39;t to blame for the existence of this ridiculous empire, the system that forces honest people into slavery is.
This is what I&#39;ve been trying to say&#33;

It seems to me that the position of
some people on Enlisted personel and
Vets isn&#39;t quite rooted in reality.

For some people there are only so many options
available to them. Say we aren&#39;t talking about the
militery, say we were talking about it being
inhumane for people to become drug dealers.

Sure there is a social stigma involed with selling crack
but hell, if you see people your age driving around in fancy
cars and spending mad loot while your stuck working at
Burger King you may decide that you too might want to get
out of the ghetto.

But suppose that spending 10 years in jail for selling rock
doesn&#39;t sound to apealing to you. Well you may also know this
dude down the street you went to school with who just came back
from the Navy. He&#39;s told you of all the great places he&#39;s been to... Spain
Italy, France etc... all the bars he&#39;s been drunk in and how girls love the
uniform etc... `how he&#39;ll never go back to minimum wage because he&#39;s learned
a trade while seeing the world and being paid for it.... and can go to trade school
or college when he gets out and recieve money from the Govt. for doing it.

So maybe he&#39;ll end up strapping bombs to the underside of aircraft on some airfield.
Maybe he&#39;ll be on the deck of a ship fighting fires so the rest of the crew can continue
to launch missles to targets miles away. Or maybe he&#39;ll be out on a battlefield firing his
rifle at some poor shmuck who&#39;s probobly in the same situation..... In your eyes this person
is "evil" because they aren&#39;t back home flipping burgers.

What about the general tax payer? I mean 50% of what anyone pays in taxes goes directly
to the militery budget. Are the tax payers who helped purchase the bombs any less guilty than
the guy who strapped it to an F-14?

Yeah go blame the men and women who are serving if it makes you feel any better. But know that
every person that has paid taxes is just as guilty as any of us who have put on a uniform and sworn
an oath to serve and protect our countery.

[redstar2000]

But know that every person that has paid taxes is just as guilty as any of us who have put on a uniform and sworn an oath to serve and protect our country.

No, because taxes are compulsory and avoiding them is difficult (unless you&#39;re quite wealthy, of course). Many people who work in the "underground economy" do avoid paying taxes...but usually your regular employer just takes the money out of your paycheck. And there are a tiny minority of "pure pacifists" who refuse to pay taxes and even go to jail for it.

From an ethical standpoint, drug dealers are really no different from people who work in a liquor store, tobacco shop, or pharmacy. Their methods of doing business may be "rough"...but that was the case for alcohol during prohibition as well. It&#39;s the "law" that makes drug-dealing "bad", not the act itself. In fact, during the "unregulated" period of American capitalism (1861-1918?), all or nearly all corporations used "thuggish" methods to deal with their more obstinate competitors. See, for example, The History of the Great American Fortunes.

The fact that many naive youth are "tricked" into joining the military is a mitigating factor, to be sure. But, in the present era, it&#39;s hard for me to see how anyone could be so naive as to not know what they&#39;re getting into...and what they&#39;re going to be paid to do.

It&#39;s on the dummyvision, isn&#39;t it?

As to those who join for non-economic reasons -- patriotism, nationalism, etc. -- they are no doubt convinced that they&#39;re "doing the right thing for the right reasons".

That doesn&#39;t mean anything to me; most Nazis were "sincere".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 11:40 PM
No, because taxes are compulsory and avoiding them is difficult (unless you&#39;re quite wealthy, of course). Many people who work in the "underground economy" do avoid paying taxes...but usually your regular employer just takes the money out of your paycheck. And there are a tiny minority of "pure pacifists" who refuse to pay taxes and even go to jail for it.
Paying taxes isn&#39;t compulsatory. If you must be so ethical about it, then why don&#39;t you just not work? Then you don&#39;t have to pay taxes. You might have to be begging on the streets, but as you said, isn&#39;t that better then supporting US imperialism? I agree with RedCeltic on this 100% btw.

[redstar2000]

You might have to be begging on the streets, but as you said, isn&#39;t that better then supporting US imperialism?

Yes, I did say that. Because it&#39;s true.

When a very large number of people refuse to work and hence are not liable for income taxes, it&#39;s called a general strike...and is often, though not always, a prelude to revolution (or at least an attempt at one).

But trying to equate paying taxes resulting from normal employment and volunteering to be a professional killer for the ruling class (military or police) is simply "not going to fly".

They are obviously different&#33;

Quit trying to make excuses for the inexcusable.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[RedCeltic]

Boy what hypocrisy&#33; It is evil and sinister for some wet behind the ears youth fresh out of high school to sign up for the military, weather or not they know any better, yet it’s not evil and sinister for people to pay taxes which fund the military… regardless of if they know where the money goes.

You speak of how paying taxes is compulsory yet fail to recognize where enlistment in the armed forces is also compulsory….

You say that it doesn’t matter why someone joined the armed forces in today’s military, and obviously make no distinction between the grunt on the battlefield wielding a machine gun and the Mess cook serving grub in the galley, The Sea Bee laying underground pipe, or the boatswain’s mate slapping haze gray paint on the side of a non combatant ship….

… if in your eyes these are all killers than every person who has paid their taxes is equally a killer. If it doesn’t matter if you pressed the button that dropped the bomb, or if you unclogged the toilet for the person who dropped the bomb, than it shouldn’t matter if you are on the ground in Iraq, or in your office in Manhattan, your just as guilty.

I don’t think there are any innocents here, I think we are all as equally guilty and equally victims at the same time.

I’m sure it makes you feel much better about yourself by saying “PFC (Private First Class) Jones is a murderer because he was in the Army” yet the blood is on your hands, and mine as well as the government makes us pay for our own undoing.

It’s the working class that spill their blood to kill people in Iraq, and it’s their children who aren’t even old enough to go to school yet who will help pay for this. Don’t be fooled into thinking that anyone is innocent here.

[El Che]

I agree with Stapler and Redceltic. All of you screaming "holier than thou", don&#39;t be so quick to pass judgement. Its never a good sign when people see things in white or black and miss all the shades of grey that lie inbetween.

Redstar, if I put a gun to your head and say "kneel", you probably will but you don&#39;t have too, you have a choice. Its called free will. Ultimately nothing is compulsory. So, I guess the blood is on your hands as well.

[redstar2000]

You speak of how paying taxes is compulsory yet fail to recognize where enlistment in the armed forces is also compulsory...

Well, I speak from experience. I "said no" to the military draft in 1962...when it really was compulsory.

Towards the end of the war, it was reported that half of the kids called to the Oakland Armed Forces Induction Center simply didn&#39;t show up&#33;

Were kids not poor in 1970?


You say that it doesn’t matter why someone joined the armed forces in today’s military, and obviously make no distinction between the grunt on the battlefield wielding a machine gun and the Mess cook serving grub in the galley, The Sea Bee laying underground pipe, or the boatswain’s mate slapping haze gray paint on the side of a non combatant ship...

Well, why should it matter? Everyone knows what the main purpose is...so how is it better if you cook or clean for the guy that actually does the killing instead of doing the actual killing yourself?

Was the payroll clerk at Auschwitz a "decent fellow" because he never personally participated in the holocaust?


...if in your eyes these are all killers then every person who has paid their taxes is equally a killer.

That is a terrible line of argument to pursue.

Does it follow that Mr. Moneybags, who legally avoids paying taxes, is a "good guy"?


I don’t think there are any innocents here; I think we are all as equally guilty and equally victims at the same time.

Well, that&#39;s neat. So I can do anything I wish while never tarnishing my "leftism".

My "leftism" remains pure and unsullied, "up in the sky somewhere", while down here on the planet of shit, I can scab or kill for the class enemy and it&#39;s "ok".

Who would dare reproach me? Who would dare suggest that I was a hypocrite or worse?

Not you&#33;


...don&#39;t be so quick to pass judgment. It&#39;s never a good sign when people see things in white or black and miss all the shades of grey that lie in between.

Did you have an "acceptable" time interval in mind? How long do you wish us to wait before "passing judgment"?

Is there anything in your "moral cosmology" that is other than some shade of gray? Are there acts that you consider "unforgivable"?

Do you live in a gray universe...where it doesn&#39;t much matter, one way or the other, what people do?

On what possible grounds do you criticize, for example, "President" Bush?

Isn&#39;t he just another shade of gray?


Redstar, if I put a gun to your head and say "kneel", you probably will but you don&#39;t have too; you have a choice. It&#39;s called free will. Ultimately nothing is compulsory. So, I guess the blood is on your hands as well.

Well, you guess wrong.

No one has put "a gun to the head" of those who currently volunteer for the military. On the other hand, people who don&#39;t pay their taxes risk imprisonment...a fairly effective "gun to the head".

(A personal aside: my feeble pension is too small to be eligible for either federal or state income tax...so there&#39;s no blood on my hands even by your ridiculous "reasoning". But if you try, maybe you can think up some other way to blame me for U.S. imperialism and the deeds of those who fight for it.)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

O yeah Redstar2000? You think you&#39;re so big and bad, I bet you did at some point pay a tax supporting the US imperialists&#33;&#33;&#33; HAHAHAHA&#33; Well? Did ya? Did ya? Did ya? Did ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?

Look, it doesn&#39;t matter weather we join the military or not. Everyone left of the Nazi party could refuse to join the military, and we&#39;d still be paying taxes, and Bush would have all the Nazis he needs to go conquer all the Middle East and France. Weather you fight or not doesn&#39;t make a damn bit of difference. I don&#39;t blame the soldiers, I don&#39;t blame the taxpayers, the people that I blame are Bush, his capitalist/imperialist/fundamentalist lackeys, and the people that support them. A homeless Republican is just as guilty as the man gunning down Iraqi children.

[El Che]

Redstar wrote:

Do you live in a gray universe...where it doesn&#39;t much matter, one way or the other, what people do?

No, I live in a universe with the full spectrum of colors (at least I try to). The difference is that I live in the real world, with real people, while you live in an aseptic dome of dogmatic postulation. Indeed, your discourse is so out of touch with reality that I do not know any political platform that would associate with it.

It is wrong to join an army of Imperialism, I&#39;m not disputing that. But these people play with the hopes and fears of the young to get them in the army. Once there, they brainwash them. This is especially so in army and marine units. People are brutalized to the point of numbness. For the most part these are young susceptible kids in the hands of trained, calculated sadists who know very well what they are doing; they don&#39;t stand a chance.

I don&#39;t think your tough rethoric means you feel the injustices of Imperialism any more than I do. I don&#39;t excuse those that fight, maim and kill. However I see things in three dimensions. I see that even those that do the most terrible things, the real dirty work, are pushed in the right direction, so to speak. Vietnam is a case in point. Those that commit the atrocities are victims of them as well. Victims of their own actions, their own inhumanity and thrice victims for being induced and mislead.

So, continue shouting out of your corner how you want all soldiers to die. It isn&#39;t helpful, it isn&#39;t terribly insightful, its just shallow.


Well, you guess wrong.

I&#39;m not wrong. If you ever paid taxes you contributed to US Imperialism and you had a choice then too. Where is the tough line now? Do you take your own medicine? I thought you would rather &#39;beg on the streets&#39; than help Imperialism.

[redstar2000]

Oh yeah Redstar2000? You think you&#39;re so big and bad, I bet you did at some point pay a tax supporting the US imperialists&#33;&#33;&#33; HAHAHAHA&#33; Well? Did ya? Did ya? Did ya? Did ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?

I&#39;m truly crushed by your eloquence...and "caught" by the clever extension of your "argument". The last year where I actually earned enough "above-ground" money to pay taxes was 1985...but I&#39;m sure it could be 1885 and make no difference to you.

So, blame me and that will get you off the hook.


Look, it doesn&#39;t matter whether we join the military or not.

Yes, and by the same "reasoning", it doesn&#39;t matter if we scab or not, or become cops or not, or become corporate pigs or not, etc., etc., etc. In fact, it doesn&#39;t matter if we become Nazis or not.

Since imperialism exists, that confers upon you the "right" to collaborate with it as much as you please.

Whatever shit you decide to do, you always have the "excuse" that someone else would do it even if you refused...so, hell, if the money&#39;s good, "why not" do it?

If anyone criticizes you, just fall back on that "you pay taxes so you&#39;re just as guilty" line...you never know when you&#39;ll find some fool who&#39;ll believe you...like our next contributor...


No, I live in a universe with the full spectrum of colors (at least I try to). The difference is that I live in the real world, with real people, while you live in an aseptic dome of dogmatic postulation. Indeed, your discourse is so out of touch with reality that I do not know any political platform that would associate with it.

Nice image...though pretty thin on substance. Have you considered a career in advertising?


So, continue shouting out of your corner how you want all soldiers to die. It isn&#39;t helpful, it isn&#39;t terribly insightful, it&#39;s just shallow.

Oh? What&#39;s your plan? Think a big wet kiss will defeat imperialism?


If you ever paid taxes you contributed to US Imperialism...

So it&#39;s "ok" for you to do it since, after all, I "did it". (?)

In fact, if any so-called "leftist" does anything, then it&#39;s "ok" for you to do it too...and still call yourself a "leftist".

Well, speaking from my "aseptic dome of dogmatic postulation", I solemnly postulate that you and MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr are a pair of fake leftists looking for an excuse, any excuse, to do what you both know is something shitty.

Neither of you will get it from me.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[El Che]

Redstar wrote:

So it&#39;s "ok" for you to do it since, after all, I "did it". (?)

In fact, if any so-called "leftist" does anything, then it&#39;s "ok" for you to do it too...and still call yourself a "leftist".

That question mark definitely belongs, as I think you know, outside those parentheses. Please don&#39;t put words in my mouth. You are deriving conclusions from my point on paying taxes that are not contained in it and are not mine. It means what it means. It doesn&#39;t mean its ok, it means the opposite.

The substance of the point is not the grossly erroneous conclusions you atribute to it. Instead it should make the point that sometimes we all commit small acts of betrayal to make our lives a bit easier and that we don&#39;t necessarily need to be burnt at the stake for them. Each case is a case.

Contrary to what you would like to portray our differences on this whole matter of "can you blame the soldiers" are not huge. We agree on the essential. Our differences lie more in how we choose to react to this problem. You are either unaware or unconcerned with the fact that the "grunts" are victims in the whole affair more than anything else because they are manipulated; because the prospect of a better life (which is what Redceltic & Stapler speak to), for those that have little prospects at all, is also a form of coercion analogous to the prospect of incarceration for tax evasion. But no, you would rather stand atop the highest pulpit in your dome (I hope you don&#39;t mind these flights of fancy) and demand "off with their heads" because you need to assert your self the hardest hardliner in the jungle. This position may be fine -not in the sense that it holds much water mind you- in online forums but in the real world its about as useful as shooting your own foot. People tend to react unkindly to stern recrimination and downright viciousness.

[redstar2000]

...sometimes we all commit small acts of betrayal to make our lives a bit easier...

Yeah, some of us pay taxes and others kill people. :o

I guess "small" is in the mind...one that is suitably proportioned, of course.


But no, you would rather stand atop the highest pulpit in your dome (I hope you don&#39;t mind these flights of fancy) and demand "off with their heads" because you need to assert your self [as] the hardest hardliner in the jungle. This position may be fine--not in the sense that it holds much water mind you--in online forums but in the real world it&#39;s about as useful as shooting your own foot. People tend to react unkindly to stern recrimination and downright viciousness.

That&#39;s helpful advice. Next time I run into a uniformed war criminal, I&#39;ll be careful to be appropriately deferential.

I don&#39;t have to actually kiss him, do I? :o

Meanwhile, since we are on an online forum, I can be as sternly recriminating and downright vicious to those who excuse gross collaboration with the class enemy as I please.

And, as it happens, it pleases me a great deal. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[El Che]

Its not "collaboration". Both parties aren&#39;t equals in this relationship. And I&#39;m not excusing anything but I&#39;ll let my earlier posts in this thread speak for me on that one.