armed forces...

[commieboy]

no, im not talking about "Would you join an armed movement" we've got enough of those floating around. But im talking about National armed forces....

I've gotten to know the Marine recruiter that comes to my school and we're on a first-name basis now....

I've looked at all the benifits and positive things about being in the marines and well....damn im fucking interested!

I dont know if im going to join, i've got three years to decide....But college is crazy expensive...and hey, i feel that i should take the responsiblity of protecting the country.

anyone here in the armed forces or interested?

[canikickit]

Protecting the country from what!? What a load of fucking bullshit, your poxy country doesn't need any more mercenaries. That idiot has you brainwashed if you think it's your "duty" to kill for money.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

The way things are going for me, I might be left with no choise. I've been trying to get a job for the last for months and had no success at all. I need to eat, and I want to go to college. Unless you are willing to help him pay for his college then it isn't his fault. Not everyone in the armed forces is an absolute scumbag. Remember, Hugo Chavez was in an imperialist army before he led an attempted coup, and now he is president of Venezeula.

[antieverything]

http://www.warresisters.org/

http://www.warresisters.org/Not_Just_a_Job.pdf

ARE YOU CONSIDERING
ENLISTMENT?

You’ve probably heard the ads and the recruiter’s
sales pitch. Sounds pretty good, doesn’t it? All advertising
does. But if military life doesn’t live up to
the advertising, you can’t bring your enlistment
agreement back to the recruiter for a refund, and
you are obligated to the military for a total of eight
years, including possible reserve duty.
You wouldn’t buy a car without looking under the
hood. Don’t enlist before you check out the reality of
military life that lies behind the glamorous television
ads and slick brochures. Check it out carefully!

MILITARY DISCIPLINE
AND LIVING CONDITIONS

Do you enjoy being bossed around? Do you want
someone constantly telling you what to do and how
to do it? If your answer is “no,” you may have a
hard time adapting to military life. Federal law
states that the military places “numerous restrictions
on personal behavior that would not be acceptable
in civilian society.” Military members are
subject to military law 24 hours a day—even if they
are off duty and off base—from beginning to end of
their term (10 U.S.C. Sec. 654). Disobedience in the
military can result in court-martial, prison, or even
the lifetime problem of a bad discharge.
Furthermore, the enlistment agreement says that
your status, pay, benefits and responsibilities in
the military can change without warning and
regardless of any promises in your agreement!
Not surprisingly, a lot of people express unhappiness
after joining the military. For example, in 1999 more
enlistees in their first term were dissatisfied (41%) with
the military way of life than were satisfied (35%). And
only 29% of them said they were likely to stay on active
duty in the military (1999 Survey of Active Duty
Personnel, Dept. Of Defense).

THE MILITARY JOB TRAINING MYTH

Many people join the military expecting to receive
job training. But remember, military training is designed
for military jobs, not to help you get a civilian
job later. Even in the technically-oriented Air
Force, most jobs require particular military skills
that won’t do you much good in the civilian world.
If you get the training you were promised for a particular
military occupation, you still might not get
any experience in the job because the military
doesn’t have to use you in the field you requested.
In the 1999 military survey, only half of all military
members (including officers) said they were satisfied
with their training and job assignments, and
only 22.7% were satisfied with their basic pay.
As stated by Richard Cheney when he was Secretary
of Defense, “The military is not a social welfare
agency; it’s not a jobs program.”

THE EASY MONEY FOR COLLEGE MYTH

Recruiters might promise you tens of thousands of
free dollars for college, but it’s not free—you must
work for it. And it’s not automatic. Unless you qualify
for special jobs or sign up for an extra-long term,
you’ll never see the higher amounts of money. To
qualify for any aid at all, you have to pay a $1200
non-refundable deposit to the military. If you receive
a less-than-honorable discharge (as about one in four
people do), leave the military early (as one in three
do), or later decide not to go to college, the military
will keep your deposit and give you nothing.
According to the Veterans Affairs Dept., less than
half of eligible veterans are using their educational
benefits, which means the military takes in a lot of
money that will not be paid back. In other words,
it’s really the military that profits, not veterans.
Colleges can help you find aid if you need it, and it
pays to investigate these options before agreeing to
give away years of your life to the military. Once
you complete school, you can start earning the
higher wages of a college graduate right away.

RACISM

In 1991, the head of the U.S. Commission on Civil
Rights received hundreds of complaints of racism in
the military. He issued a report saying discrimination
haunts African-Americans, Latinos and women
in the military. In 2001, 38.1% of the enlisted personnel
were people of color, but only 16.7% of the officers
were. Latinos in the Marine Corps, for example,
made up 14% of the enlisted ranks, but only 5.3% of
the officers. When the Los Angeles Times investigated
the Ft. Leavenworth military prison in 1994, it found
that 50% of all the inmates, and 83% of those under
a military death sentence, were people of color.

WHAT WOMEN EXPERIENCE

Women often join the military to gain skills and
break out of traditional roles. However, while the
range of military work open to women has increased
over the years, women are still limited in the positions
open to them. And within those positions, they
are often given traditional tasks: according to one
government report, “many women report that they
are not allowed to work at the jobs for which they
were trained . . . [and] that they are routinely assigned
clerical or administrative duties instead of being
given the opportunity to work in the full range of
their occupations” (GAO/NSIAD-99-27, 11/98).
Sexual harassment and rape are a real threat to
women in the military. A recent survey found that
30% of women reported being victims of rape or attempted
rape while in the military; 75% had experienced
sexual harassment (Reuters Health, 3/14/03).

HOMOPHOBIA

Discrimination against gays, lesbians and bisexuals
is not only intense within the military, it is official
policy. Witch hunts to kick lesbian and gay personnel
out of the military continue. Since the so-called
“Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy was introduced, the
pace of forced discharges has actually increased. Violence
and threats against those suspected of being
gay are routine.

YOU WILL LOSE BASIC RIGHTS


If you leave your work without permission, you
can be arrested.

Any disobedience can result in criminal punishment.

You can be punished without the right to see a
lawyer or have a trial.

Your right to say what you think when and how
you want will be restricted.

Individual expression through the way you dress
and wear your hair won’t be tolerated.

You will be subject to routine urine tests for drugs.

WAR––YOU THINK IT WON’T
HAPPEN TO YOU?

Many of the U.S. soldiers who fought in Vietnam,
Grenada, Panama and the Persian Gulf, never expected
they would be the ones to see combat. Many
of the Reserve soldiers who fought in the Gulf had
been told that this would never happen to them.
But the main purpose of the military is to fight
wars, and if you enlist you will have no choice if
you are ordered to fight for something you don’t
believe in—like protecting a foreign dictator or oil
industry profits. After enlisting, if you discover that
your religious, moral or ethical beliefs won’t allow
you to kill, it will be hard for you to get a discharge
as a conscientious objector (hundreds of U.S. soldiers
were imprisoned when they objected to the
Persian Gulf War).
Before enlisting, it’s important to talk to a veteran or
someone who has fled a war-torn country to learn
about the horrors of war.

DEP: THE DELAYED ENTRY PROGRAM

If you have signed up for the DEP, many recruiters
will tell you that you can’t get out of it. This is not
true. There are a variety of reasons for DEP discharges,
like enrolling in college, finding a long-term
job, family hardship, etc. To quit the DEP, you will
need to take steps to get discharged before your date
to report for basic training. Your recruiter normally
An Army recruiter’s letter to the Army Times
newspaper, Feb. 12, 2000:
“The Army Times isn’t a good sales tool.
“The problem is what the real Army has
seemed to become. . . . I tell prospects about the
great pay and benefits. Benefits such as free
medical and dental care for themselves and
Tricare for their families.
“They read in the Army Times about soldiers and
former soldiers suffering from Gulf War illnesses
and being denied treatment, about poor treatment,
poor facilities and how Tricare is broken.”
will not help you. For free counseling and help,
contact one of the groups listed on this brochure.

THINGS YOU SHOULD ASK
YOURSELF BEFORE ENLISTING:


Are you prepared to fight in any war, any place,
anytime that the government orders you to?

Have you really considered and checked out all
the job training and placement possibilities in
your community?

Is joining the military something you want to do,
or are you being pressured into it by other people?

Is this a spur of the moment decision you may
regret later?

Have you talked to any of the many veterans who
didn’t like the military? Why didn’t they make the
military a career?

If you become unhappy after you enlist, do you
know how hard it will be to get out?

If you get a less-than-honorable discharge, do you
know how hard it will be to get it changed?

9 THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN YOU
TALK TO A RECRUITER

1) Recruiters are interested in you in order to make
a sale. If they fail to meet their quota of recruits,
they can be forced to work overtime. An award winning
recruiter told The Boston Globe, “You have to
convince these little punks to do something . . . I figure
if I can sell this, I can sell anything.” Another
veteran recruiter told a reporter for the Albany Times
Union, “I’ve been recruiting for years and I don’t
know one recruiter who wasn’t dishonest about it. I
did it myself.”
2) Take along a parent or friend as a witness if you
go see a recruiter. That way you’ll have somebody
to back up your side of the story if there is a dispute
over whether you got what you were promised.
3) If you have a police record or medical condition,
don’t hide it––even if the recruiter tells you it
doesn’t matter. You’ll be the one in trouble later on,
not the recruiter.
4) DON’T sign any papers until you have taken
them home and read them over carefully. If you
ask for a copy of the enlistment agreement, they
must give it to you. If they refuse, don’t sign the
agreement. REMEMBER, you’re not in the military
yet; they can’t order you around.
5) Talk the enlistment agreement over with your
parents and friends, and with a trained civilian
counselor. Ask about the parts of the agreement
that you don’t understand.
6) GET ALL PROMISES IN WRITING and have
them signed by the recruitment representative!
Spoken promises are worthless.
7) Get copies of everything you sign. Keep the
copies in a safe place.
8) If you want one of the military’s enlistment options,
be sure to ask the recruiter the following
questions:

For how long do I have to enlist to get this option?

Are there any extra requirements (schooling, physical
standards, security clearance, etc.) that I have
to meet to qualify for this option? What happens if
I don’t meet them, but I’ve already enlisted?

For options that include assignment to a particular
base or area: Am I guaranteed this assignment for
the entire time I’m in?
9) REMEMBER: If you don’t like your new job,
they don’t have to let you switch, and you can’t
quit! Early discharges that don’t also punish you
can be hard to get.

FINDING A NON-MILITARY JOB

Looking for a job is hard work, and the better prepared
you are, the greater your chance to find, get
and keep the job you want. Following are some
job-hunting tips:
KNOW YOURSELF. Think about all of the job experience
you have. Don’t forget to include volunteer
work, baby-sitting, home carpentry, or painting.
Put together a résumé that outlines your skills,
abilities and interests. If you don’t know how to put
together a résumé, check with the library or career
center at your school. Think about what you want
to do in your life. Talk to people who have the type
of job you are interested in. Ask them how they got
their first job.
REFERENCES. Employers want to know who you
are and if you are trustworthy and reliable. Before
you go for a job interview, get the names, addresses
and phone numbers of three people who can tell
your employer what kind of person you are. They
should have known you for at least a year and not
be relatives. Be sure to warn them so they are prepared
to answer questions about you, if asked.
INTERVIEWS. Go dressed neatly and appropriately.
Go by yourself. Be on time. Before the interview,
try to find out something about the company.
You can get this information from someone who
works there or by researching it at the library or
Employment Development Office. Be friendly during
the interview. The only way for them to find
out about your skills, interests and abilities is for
you to tell them.
APPLICATIONS. Be sure to bring a pen. To make a
good impression, follow the directions carefully and
fill out the application neatly and completely.
For free counseling and more information about
what recruiters might not be telling you, contact:

Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors
630 20th St., #302, Oakland, CA 94612
(510) 465-1617; www.objector.org/
and 1515 Cherry St., Philadelphia, PA 19102
(215) 563-8787
Pre-enlistment counseling, military and draft counseling.
AFSC Youth & Militarism Program
1501 Cherry St., Philadelphia, PA 19102
(215) 241-7176; www.afsc.org/youthmil.htm
Pre-enlistment, military & draft counseling
War Resisters League
339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012
(212) 228-0450; www.warresisters.org
Pre-enlistment, military & draft counseling.
Project on Youth and Non-Military Opportunities
(Project YANO)
P.O. Box 230157, Encinitas, CA 92023
(760) 634-3604; www.projectyano.org

Information on military recruitment, the draft,
non-military career choices and college financing.

Local contact:
Produced by Project YANO, with special thanks to
Resist, Inc. 4/03


What You Should Know
Before Joining the Military
The Military’s Not
Just a Job . . .
. . . It’s Eight Years
of Your Life!

[commieboy]

you know what?

No matter what bullshit you pull from the depts of the internet i'm still going to be, "Proud to be an American" that there isn't anything wrong with it....The government was taken by an asshole who hides behind the military...that doesnt mean every american is an asshole.

That doesn't mean that i shouldn't fofill my civic duty and join the military...I'm not protecting my country by conducting traffic in baghdad, or yelling at suspicious men at street corners in a foriegn country...

I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN! and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they've done.

But this is just the same situation with you guys and cops..."I hate those fucking pigs, i wish they'd all die!" the minute your house is broken into you call 911 and hope they find the guy who did that.

And would you guys be saying this to people interested in joining the Cuban Army, or back in the day, the Soviet army....Just because you dont agree with somthing doesn't make it wrong.

[FatFreeMilk]

Maybe I should show that last post to my brother.

He thinks he's gonna be a failure in life if he doesn't join the marines or some other whack branch of the military. All the training is really good, I guess but there's more of a downside to joining than a +side.

I was considering it for a while so I can use them to pay for college, but fuck that. Being a female in the military is not safe. More importantly, I don't wanna do the US's dirty work. Who the fuck wants to be barked at all day anyways for something that aint even worth it.

Not all cops are bad, just most of them :) People only turn to the wanton for help because if they go out and get the person who did them wrong, they'd be punished as well.

How many people up in Washington have sons or daughters in the military?

[ComradeRed]

No matter what bullshit you pull from the depts of the internet i'm still going to be, "Proud to be an American" that there isn't anything wrong with it....The government was taken by an asshole who hides behind the military...that doesnt mean every american is an asshole. Firstly, communists do not have national ties, how can one be nationalist without nations and still be commie? Moreover, no communist would gladly join imperialists in plundering the world, nor defend corporate interests.


That doesn't mean that i shouldn't fofill my civic duty and join the military...I'm not protecting my country by conducting traffic in baghdad, or yelling at suspicious men at street corners in a foriegn country...What about getting shot at for oppressing their freedom? :D yeah, the only duty which man is obligated to fulfill is that of fraternal love, i.e. not helping imperialists plunder iraq for oil.


I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN! and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they've done. Big Brother promotes people to join the army and defend his lands from thought criminals :lol: . True, hitler was terrible but the whole world was against him. Osama bin laden is using terrorist moves to liberate palestine and get the imperialists out of iraq, terrorism is not the answer to these problems.


But this is just the same situation with you guys and cops..."I hate those fucking pigs, i wish they'd all die!" the minute your house is broken into you call 911 and hope they find the guy who did that. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.


And would you guys be saying this to people interested in joining the Cuban Army, or back in the day, the Soviet army....Just because you dont agree with somthing doesn't make it wrong. No, you are correct, you would just be fulfilling "the white man's burden" in Iraq or searching through caves in Afghanistan.

If you choose to join the imperialists, which I sincerely hope you don't, you will be enjoyig taking orders, getting shot at, getting bombs thrown at you, but wait there is more! Not only would you help the "white man's burden" but you would be pressing western beliefs onto iraqis, afghanistanis and more!

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:31 PM
How many people up in Washington have sons or daughters in the military?
I know most of them, and I can tell you that a sizeable amount of them do.

I think it's great that you're considering this, commieboy. I've thought about it myself. You've said everything I was going to say already (about civic duty, not hating the country just because of the President, etc.).

I say go for it. I might.

And by the way, don't pay any attention to anything you read on the internet (especially not that anti-enlisting shit), unless it comes from a completely reliable source. You can find absolutely anything on the internet.

[commieboy]

by the time i'd be able to join the military BUsh whould be out of office and we know a democrat would be in....

This means not even close to as much war and military operations....and that oil isn't #1 on the list.....

For an example....in the 50's my grandpa was drafted into the army...he was and is one of the most anti-war people i've ever known and he said that his time in the army changed him for the better....and he said "Even though North Korea and China didn't pose as an immediate threat to America. They were a threat to democracy..." and it's true he fought communists...and he was also fighting imperalism too, in the US army?

Shit man...times have changed..

[ComradeRed]

Kerry would keep you there just as long as bu$h would. I just cannot fathom why a communist, whose obligations are that of equality and revolution for the proletariat (not against them), would join those who crush the revolutions of the proletariat and those who oppress the masses.

[commieboy]

I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...I'd be fighting for America, not the America that "Liberated Iraq" but for the America my Family came here for, the America that protected my grandparents from the fascists in europe...and the america they came here for...where if you work hard, and play by the rules not just you but everyone suceeds...


But that America is long gone....My family learned that when their neighborhood was burned down during the Riots in Detroit..

[ComradeRed]

I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...I'd be fighting for AmericaNo, "we" never fight to oppress people "we" always liberate people; however, it is always in the first person we do such. Nazis were "liberating" Europe from the evils of communism, judaism, etc. and god was on their side!

"We" say "they" were oppressing people in Europe, but "we" never said a word about the Japanese Concentration Camps, yet criticize Hitler on his.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:26 AM
I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...I'd be fighting for America, not the America that "Liberated Iraq" but for the America my Family came here for, the America that protected my grandparents from the fascists in europe...and the america they came here for...where if you work hard, and play by the rules not just you but everyone suceeds...


But that America is long gone....My family learned that when their neighborhood was burned down during the Riots in Detroit..
So then why?

[BuyOurEverything]

commieboy: So maybe you'd like to enlighten me as to why you call yourself a commie? It's certainly a catchy name, but in your case it's completely innaproriate. I'm not going to quote yoru post and go through it point by point, as ComradeRed has already adequately done that. However, I'd just like to reiterate that a communists is an internationalist, not a 'patriotic American.' If you want to 'do your patriotic duty' and 'protect America,' at least have enough respect for the rest of us to stop calling yourself a communist. Occupying Iraq is not making American a safer place. Yes, Sadaam was not a good guy, but American occupation is even worse. If you are stationed there, you will be oppressing the people of Iraq, and frankly, I wouldn't be that upset if you got shot at. Opposing Bush does not make you a communist, it makes you a Democrat, remember that. And Democrats are just as imperialistic as Republicans.

Ortega: Joining the army is great? Doing your civic duty to your country? Well surprise, surprise, you're not a communist. I'm shocked /sarcasm

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr: While I adamately oppose joining the army even for strictly financial reasons, as you seem to be advocating, I think that if you raed commieboy's posts you will find that that is not what he is talking about.

[FatFreeMilk]

I know most of them, and I can tell you that a sizeable amount of them do.


Horeshit :lol: Whoops my bad, I meant people in congress. Yeah, do you know all the people in congress? Only one of them does ;) Why do you think that is?

[Umoja]

I honestly have always wanted to join the air force, even before I was a socialist. It still has a moderate appeal, just like being a diplomat or even working for the CIA. It sounds like it could be fun, but unfortunately my political views would cause some problems.

[commieboy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:41 AM
commieboy: So maybe you'd like to enlighten me as to why you call yourself a commie? It's certainly a catchy name, but in your case it's completely innaproriate. I'm not going to quote yoru post and go through it point by point, as ComradeRed has already adequately done that. However, I'd just like to reiterate that a communists is an internationalist, not a 'patriotic American.' If you want to 'do your patriotic duty' and 'protect America,' at least have enough respect for the rest of us to stop calling yourself a communist. Occupying Iraq is not making American a safer place. Yes, Sadaam was not a good guy, but American occupation is even worse. If you are stationed there, you will be oppressing the people of Iraq, and frankly, I wouldn't be that upset if you got shot at. Opposing Bush does not make you a communist, it makes you a Democrat, remember that. And Democrats are just as imperialistic as Republicans.


you know what...you're right but i'm not just an internationalist...I AM AMERICAN...i cant deny or ignor that fact..And if these were the bases that you start calling people Uncommunistic....then what about all the standing armies that protect their countries....i understand Che's philosphy that we're not a bunch of groups of people...just one big group (Communists)...

But that's unrealistic, I consider myself a member of the communist international community but im also an american....and i'd protect both...

[BuyOurEverything]

I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...I'd be fighting for America, not the America that "Liberated Iraq" but for the America my Family came here for, the America that protected my grandparents from the fascists in europe...and the america they came here for...where if you work hard, and play by the rules not just you but everyone suceeds...


You mean the America that bombed the shit out of German civilians? The America that dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan? The America that turned water hoses on uppity negroes? The America that turned away boatloads of European refugees? Gee, America sure was great back then.


you know what...you're right but i'm not just an internationalist...I AM AMERICAN

Explain how you can be both.


i cant deny or ignor that fact

Assuming that by "American," you don't simply mean 'one who resides in America,' it's not a fact, it's a choice.


if these were the bases that you start calling people Uncommunistic....

Being proud of your imperialist heritage? Being nationalistic? Joining an imperialist army? Supporting capitalism? I'd say those are pretty good grounds to call you 'uncommunistic.'


what about all the standing armies that protect their countries....

Protect their countries from whom? All those damn foreign reds who actually have the nerve to call for self determination?


i understand Che's philosphy that we're not a bunch of groups of people...just one big group (Communists)...

But that's unrealistic, I consider myself a member of the communist international community but im also an american....and i'd protect both...


How is internationalism unrealistic? Do you feel threatened by foreigners? Are people that aren't from America not as good as you? Do you support domestic racists, capitalists, and fascists over foreign proletarians and leftists? You're simply a racist and a national chauvinist.

But I suppose it's all one should expect from someone who brags about turning communism into a fad.

[Anarchist Freedom]

hey commieboy just let me leave you with this joining the military isnt safe. college is best choice because when your done serving in the military your likely to be doing some pretty shitty jobs..... soo i suggest college and i mean who wants to have blanket parties? i sure as hell dont.



:che:



CGLM! (http://www.cglm.net)

[communist_comrade]

hey ! ,

Leave commieboy alone ; if he joins the army its his own damn choice....id be pretty pissed off if he got shot too but you people who critisized him answer me this : lets just say an army invaded your country ; what do you do ? ...now it seems to me that what you people are saying is you wouldnt do a thing , you'd just let them shoot your family and friends down until they got to you and then put lead in your skull ....im not american im australian and i dont support all the things my goverment has done and is doing now but i know if my country was at risk id fight.wouldnt you do the same??

[Uhuru na Umoja]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:13 PM
hey ! ,

Leave commieboy alone ; if he joins the army its his own damn choice....id be pretty pissed off if he got shot too but you people who critisized him answer me this : lets just say an army invaded your country ; what do you do ? ...now it seems to me that what you people are saying is you wouldnt do a thing , you'd just let them shoot your family and friends down until they got to you and then put lead in your skull ....im not american im australian and i dont support all the things my goverment has done and is doing now but i know if my country was at risk id fight.wouldnt you do the same??
If someone invaded my country I would fight. But who is invading America? Who would? Where is there an immediate threat to America that the army can diffuse (terrorism does not count, as a small properly trained amry is just as good as a larger one at combating it... if it is really possible to fight terrorism at all)?

[IPkurd]

if britain (not my country) was attacked i wouldnt do shit only when the army come to the city and starts shooting at people then i chop there heads off but thats not likly. anywayyyyy
commieboy: you say ur family came to america so what are your real roots, if your black/itaian latino etc that dont make you american just because you was born there! ok white americans arent native neither but they are known as anglo americans.....
also you say your fighting for america, but what is america fighting for? and you know the answer.
your talking as though america is vunerable to attacks (i bet ur thinking "what about 9/11") america isnt gonna get attacked by any country maybe terrorist but not a country.
you have been brain washed to think USA is under attack u you really have.
but i dont really mind you feeling proud to be what you are because im proud of being kurdish althogh we dnt have a country yet

[commie kg]

Where's redstar's "Communists and the military" article...

If you join the mercenaries, good luck. I'll see you in the streets!

[Som]

by the time i'd be able to join the military BUsh whould be out of office and we know a democrat would be in....

Kerry plans to send an additional 40,000 troops to Iraq.

Have fun shooting, too bad quite a few of them should be your allies.


I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...I'd be fighting for America, not the America that "Liberated Iraq" but for the America my Family came here for, the America that protected my grandparents from the fascists in europe...and the america they came here for...where if you work hard, and play by the rules not just you but everyone suceeds...


You can yell 'fighting for america' all the way to the streets of Baghdad, or for that matter, Port-au-prince, Kabul, maybe Damascus or Tehran, or sitting around in South Korea, Kuwait.

They don't care what your intentions are, you join them, you shoot who they want you to shoot.


I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN! and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they've done.

When hitler rises from the grave and the 4th reich is marching down the Pennsylvania avenue, then you can have fun in the army, untill then, you're protecting a bunch of corrupt little rampages around the third world.


The government was taken by an asshole who hides behind the military

So therefore... you join the assholes death squad.

Novel sense of morals you got there, real admirable.


Just because you dont agree with somthing doesn't make it wrong.

How about when you pick up a gun and shoot someone for it, will it be wrong then?


you know what...you're right but i'm not just an internationalist...I AM AMERICAN...i cant deny or ignor that fact

If you want to play yankee patriot, then maybe you should realize that the people that are really bound to destroy your country are the people whos army you're joining.

Would you shoot your fellow Americans when the government declares martial law? or is it that only the foreigners that don't like the American government deserve your bullets?

[commieboy]

You guys keep saying though...."Whos going to attack america? WHo they're too powerful." its a mentality like that that made pearl harbor such a devastating experience....

And to answer a previous question...my family came from Malta and Ireland....My great grandpa was an orphan in Dublin during the 1900's, then he stowed away on a ship to the U.S.....where he raised his family.

And my other grandpas house and farm was destroyed by german and italian bombs...there was nothing for him to do in Malta for money...so at 17 he went to France, Spain, Portugal, and the UK....he found nothing...but then when he got onto the boat for the United States with less than $30 he found a new home. he lived in Detroit all of his life....he worked in a tool factory in the same position until he retired in 89' He was a union man and organizer....He had Eleven kids....and he lived the American dream....and he disagrees with this war right now....but that doesn't stop him from flying his American, and Maltese flag.....

And i'm not an American by choice either...im underage and i cannot renounce my citizenship...

And WHO FUCKING CARES IF I CONSIDER MYSELF AN AMERICAN! It says so on my birth certificate...my social security...I'm american...am i supposed to pretend im not? So now im supposed to be an idiot for thinking im not somthing i really am?

Now....if someone did join the military for Defense purposes like a militia or somthing...you'd just be in the woods with some crazy right wing dudes running in circles and have them yell White power every five minutes.....

[canikickit]

The American Dream is a fantasy, sold to the American public at the cost of their own means of production and the self determination of countless other nations.


My great grandpa was an orphan in Dublin during the 1900's, then he stowed away on a ship to the U.S.....where he raised his family.

Big deal, there were countless other orphans who stayed in Dublin and raised their own families.
My great grandfather was a child in Dublin in the 1900s to, he didn't have to leave though, you can also raise families in Ireland. It works.

There are countless stories about poor people making it rich in the US. Who cares? Poor people also get rich in their own countries. The difference is, Hollywood is in Los Angeles, we don't have a massive film industry pumping out fantasies about "making it big" or the "Irish dream", we don't have the same self promotion.

There's lots of great things about the US (they've made some great films). Just don't swallow all the hype.
By the way, I'm not trying to paint Ireland (or anywhere else) as "great" because we don't have such a great extent of propaganda, if we had the means, we'd self promote that bullshit just like the United States does. That's capitalism baby.


am i supposed to pretend im not (American)?

No man. You're supposed to not care. Sure, enjoy the place you live for all its relative merits, but don't get over excited about things. You don't have a "civic duty" to sign up for the governments agency to protect their interests, or "defend yourselves", there are plenty of other suckers to do that.

I can respect joining the military for financial reasons, to an extent, although I think all other avenues should be exhausted first.


"a threat to democracy"...what a cliche. Propaganda.

Don't give me that horseshit about what I'd say if you were talking about the Soviet army or Cuban army.

I don't care who your president is. That's got no relevence whatsoever.
It's a capitalist system, all you're doing working for the US army is helping the World Bank and IMF impose their rules on people.

[MiniOswald]

Ive been seriously considering joining the R.A.F (live up to the dream of the british army: to shoot those who cant shoot back!) mainly due to my love of flying (its sooooo amazing!) it would also guarantee no problems from tuition fees.
However I could easily be sent to bomb civi's somewhere which I would hate to do and as all british people know there is always the present danger of bieng shot down by the yanks (why shoot planes anyway, the iraqi's had no airforce and if they did why would it be made up of harriers and tornados?)
But then as the my name implies I have alot in common with lee harvey who did in fact join the marines so maybe I should join, quit and go and shoot a yankie!

[redstar2000]

Communists in a Capitalist Army? May 19, 2003 (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1053306309&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)

I strongly suspect that this is the only message board on the internet where even Chit-Chat has political threads.

So let's put this in Politics where it belongs.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

There are no jobs out there. I've spent months looking for them, in New Port Richey, and they aren't there. Revolution and everything is all nice and dandy, but in the meantime, I need to eat....

[IPkurd]

just becuse there are paper saying your american doesnt mean you are!
i have british everything but i will NEVER ever consider myself british even if my great great granpa was born here

[redstar2000]

I've gotten to know the Marine recruiter that comes to my school and we're on a first-name basis now....

I've looked at all the benefits and positive things about being in the marines and well....damn I'm fucking interested!

...and hey, I feel that I should take the responsibility of protecting the country.

Do you indeed? And why would that be? Who asked you to "protect" this shithole? Aside from the Marine recruiter, that is?

I live in the U.S. and I don't need your "protection"...or that of the Marine Corps, for that matter.

I think you should be very clear about what you're signing up to be: a professional killer for U.S. imperialism!

That's it...all the rest is just hype and bullshit.


Unless you are willing to help him pay for his college then it isn't his fault. Not everyone in the armed forces is an absolute scumbag.

Done a careful survey, have you?

Think it's "ok" for him to go to college on the backs of the victims he's murdered?

Think it's "ok" for you to do that?


No matter what bullshit you pull from the depths of the internet, I'm still going to be, "Proud to be an American"...

Yes, there's so much to be "proud" of, isn't there?

Well, isn't there?


That doesn't mean that I shouldn't fulfill my civic duty and join the military...

Civic duty? What the fuck is that?

Where do you get the idea that you have some kind of "civic duty" to America?


I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like Hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN! and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they've done.

Well, Hitler's been dead for nearly 60 years. Bin Laden has no army for you to fight.

So you'll end up directing traffic in Baghdad and shooting any civilian that runs a red light...or something worse.

And "worthless prick" will be the kindest thing anyone will say about you.


But this is just the same situation with you guys and cops..."I hate those fucking pigs, I wish they'd all die!" -- the minute your house is broken into, you call 911 and hope they find the guy who did that.

The Social Role of the Police May 28, 2003 (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1054049721&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)


Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong.

Yes, and just because you are desperately seeking "justification" for a rotten act doesn't "make it right".


I think it's great that you're considering this, commieboy. I've thought about it myself. You've said everything I was going to say already (about civic duty, not hating the country just because of the President, etc.).

I say go for it. I might.

Sucker!


By the time I'd be able to join the military Bush would be out of office and we know a Democrat would be in....

This means not even close to as much war and military operations....and that oil isn't #1 on the list...

No, it means nothing of the sort. U.S. imperialism does not change its nature because a new war criminal occupies the Oval Office.


For an example....in the 50's my grandpa was drafted into the army...he was and is one of the most anti-war people I've ever known, and he said that his time in the army changed him for the better....and he said "Even though North Korea and China didn't pose an immediate threat to America, they were a threat to democracy..."

That is so stupid that it practically drools.

Democracy? :lol: :lol: :lol:

And changed him for the "better"? So he would mindlessly repeat imperialist propaganda, no doubt.

And you want to be a robot too?


I wouldn't be joining or fighting to oppress a people...

The hell you wouldn't be! What exactly do you think the Marines do?

And have done throughout their existence?


...and the America they came here for...where if you work hard, and play by the rules, not just you but everyone suceeds...

Jesus H. Fucking Christ!

If you really believe that preposterous horseshit, then by all means get your stupid fucking ass into the Marine Corps...you are exactly the kind of moronic motherfucker they're looking for!

You think they got the nickname "jarheads" because of their intelligence?


...if he joins the army it's his own damn choice...

First of all, he brought it up here for discussion.

Secondly, anyone who chooses to be a professional killer for U.S. imperialism has to expect some flak here, right? There are plenty of patriotic message boards that would applaud his decision.

If he or you dislikes our reaction, I suggest that both of you adjourn to american_shit_tastes_better.com where your views will be welcome.


...but you people who criticized him, answer me this: let's just say an army invaded your country; what do you do?

Go out and cheer for the invaders when they hold their victory parade! No matter who they are, they'll be an improvement on the bastards who run America now!

This patriotic crap is really nauseating coming from so-called "leftists".


...you'd just let them shoot your family and friends down...

You left out the part about "rape your women".

Why do you assume that the "invaders" would be "worse" than your own government?

Do you think that every country behaves as badly as yours does?


...it's a mentality like that that made Pearl Harbor such a devastating experience...

Oh come on! Do you think this is fucking 1941?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Kez]

commieboy,

The America you claim to be fighting for is not your America. It doesnt belong to the working class American, it belongs to the Ruling class. Lenin when in Britain said that Britain was "2 nations" one the ruling class, one the working class. Your the working class. current america is controled by the ruling class, the class you should be fighting against, not being a tool for them.

Dont sell all your principles to justify this. The military is a tool of the ruling class to protect itself, and ONLY itself.

If America was attacked, the people should be armed, weapons distributed to the people, no army in the world could set foot then. But why would this not happen? because if the people were armed then power would reside with the working class and not the ruling class, this is why the ruling class needs the tool of a standing army.

[Winston Smith]

I might be joining ROTC for college money but I don't intend to make a career out of the millitary.

[Kez]

but comrade are you taking into account what the experience of the military training will do to you? There is a good chance that it will deform your class consiousness and your awareness.

[truthaddict11]

joining the military or the police is very stupid i suggest you think seriously about that decision or calling yourself a communist.

[Sabocat]

Commieboy

Ask yourself this question.

If you joined the military, and then your platoon were sent domestically to disperse a very large (let's say 1 million +) protesters that were converging on the WTO or FTAA meetings or protesting the DNC or RNC and after it turned violent from cops and National Guard beating 100's of protesters, you were given the order to fire on the crowd of unarmed protesters.....would you?

This is a very real scenario. Give it careful thought. If you can answer yes, by convincing yourself that you're protecting America by doing it, then please leave any pretentions you have of being communist or socialist at the door and leave, because you really would be posting on a board with people who consider you the enemy.


Your grandfather was protecting Democracy while fighting in Korea? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[commieboy]

yes yes he was......

When was the last time N. Korea had an election...i forgot?

[truthaddict11]

i suppose my father was "protecting" the vietnamese when he fought there or my grandfather and other men on my fathers side where being "protective" when they were Chicago police officers.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:38 AM
yes yes he was......

When was the last time N. Korea had an election...i forgot?
And what business is that of the U.$.'?

Slaughtering civilian population for democracy eh? :blink:

If you're supporting the Korean War, then I'm assuming you support the Vietnam War for similar reasons....fighting to stop the spread of communism and bringing democracy to the heathen horde? :lol:

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 03:38 PM
When was the last time N. Korea had an election...i forgot?
August 3, 2003

At the end of World War Two the Japanese pulled out of Korea a few months before the Russians & Americans got there. During that time they basically had anarchy. Workers took over factories, peasants the land, self-managed communes were set up, etc. Then the imperialists invaded and imposed puppet dictatorships on each half of the peninsula. The workers were slaughtered. The US imposed a military dictatorship on the south, it was still a military dictatorship in the Korean War. The Korean war wasn't defending democracy, it was a battle between rival imperialists. Both north & south were brutal dictatorships at the time.


WHO FUCKING CARES IF I CONSIDER MYSELF AN AMERICAN! It says so on my birth certificate...my social security...I'm american...am i supposed to pretend im not? So now im supposed to be an idiot for thinking im not somthing i really am?

You are only an American because you believe you are. It's a social construct, not a physical thing. It's not in your genes. For most of history people didn't think of themselves as belonging to one nation or another. A few centuries ago most westerners thought of themselves primarily in terms of religion, not nationality. National consciousness came about as a means of thought control, it's a way for the ruling classes to get the lower classes to thing that their interests & the interests of the rich are the same. The capitalists of the world send the workers of the world to slaughter each other in order to further enrich the capitalists. See http://www.spunk.org/library/pubs/ajoda/37...37/sp000787.txt (http://www.spunk.org/library/pubs/ajoda/37/sp000787.txt) for an account of the rise of nationalism & it's uses. From the government's point of view I'm technically an American citizen, but I prefer to think of myself as a human being rather than a citizen of any nation. My "country" is the world. If your'e an American, if you have a "civic duty" to your government, then you are a genocidal mass murderer. American Imperialism didn't start with GW Bush, it is rooted in the origins of America with the extermination of the native Americans, slavery, the Mexican-American war, etc. From my most recent essay:


What the U.S. is doing in Iraq is not new, similar things have been done to numerous other countries by the United States repeatedly throughout it's history. When the U.S. first started supporting Saddam's dictatorship Iraq was at war with Iran. In the the early '50s Iran was a multi-party parliamentary state with a relatively high degree of civil liberties, similar to the United Kingdom. Iranian nationalists, led by Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, won the elections and nationalized Iran's oil, previously owned by foreign corporations, thus putting Iran's oil under the control of Iranians. The US & British didn't like this, because it deprived US & British corporations of profits, and so a joint CIA operation was launched to undermine Iran's parliamentary government. They launched a coup, overthrew the nationalists, and installed a brutal dictatorship under the Shah (King). The Shah slaughtered thousands, suppressed all opposition, sent death squads to murder dissidents, and committed numerous atrocities as bad as Saddam. In 1976 Amnesty International reported that the Shah's CIA-trained security force, SAVAK, had the worst human rights record in the world. The Shah also privatized Iran's oil, selling it to foreign corporations (mostly US & British), and aligned Iran's foreign policy with the US. In 1978-79 the Iranian revolution erupted, overthrowing the Shah. Islamic Fundamentalists took advantage of the revolution to establish a theocratic republic, with Shiite Islam as the official religion. This new regime has similarities to Israel, it was an elected Muslim Republic just as Israel is an elected Jewish Republic. Saddam Hussein came to power at about the same time as the Iranian Revolution. He took advantage of the revolution to launch an invasion against Iran, hoping to gain territory for Iraq. The U.S. supported Iraq's aggression in the hopes of toppling the Iranian government and restoring an American satellite state. The US also covertly supplied Iran with weapons in order to establish links with the military, which might have lead to a coup against the Muslim Republic. The US supplied weapons to Chile under Allende for the same reason.

Iran isn't the only country to suffer from a CIA sponsored coup. In 1950 Jacobo Arbenz won a free and fair election in Guatemala. His platform was, "to transform our nation from a backward nation with a predominantly feudal economy to a modern capitalist country; and ... to accomplish this transformation in a manner that brings the greatest possible elevation of the living standards of the great masses of the people." He implemented a program of social reforms, including land reform. As part of this land reform the government appropriated some unused land from the United Fruit Company, a U.S. corporation, for which they were compensated. The US government and media demonized the Arbenz government as "Communist" even though he openly advocated capitalism. During the cold war almost any country the US didn't like was demonized as "Communist" regardless of it's actual politics, just as enemies today are demonized as "terrorists." In the run up to it's coup Iran was also demonized as a "Communist dictatorship" even though Mossadegh opposed the Soviets and helped expel their troops from Iran. The CIA launched a campaign against Arbenz and a small army of 300 terrorists were hired to destabilize and overthrow him. In June 1954 unmarked CIA planes launched air raids on the capitol and dropped leaflets demanding Arbenz's resignation. Arbenz was forced to resign and fled the country. Castillo Armas arrived at the capitol in a US embassy plane and was installed as president by the CIA. Armas repealed Arbenz's reforms and launched a reign of terror against supporters of Arbenz. Over the next several decades over 100,000 people were murdered and a series of US-backed military dictatorships ruled the country. A series of guerilla movements, mostly advocating state socialism and/or liberation theology, arose to fight against the military dictatorships which were brutally suppressed by the government with US assistance. Government death squads slaughtered civilians en masse, often moving into villages, shooting, burning or beheading all the inhabitants they could find and using helicopters to machine gun the survivors as they fled. US Green Berets and planes sometimes assisted the suppression of the rebels, dropping napalm on peasants.

A similar fate befell Congo. In 1960 Congo won it's independence from Belgium. The nationalist Patrice Lumumba became its first prime minister. He advocated a neutral stance in the Cold War, keeping Congo out of both the US and Soviet camps. A few months later a CIA supported coup overthrew Lumumba and put General Mobutu in power, who renamed the country Zaire. Mobutu, who was extremely corrupt even by the standards of US-backed dictators, gave life sentences to protestors for "insulting the president," put dissidents in mental hospitals, and suppressed religious and press freedoms. Lumumba was tracked down, tortured, shot in the head and his body dumped in hydrochloric acid.

The CIA did the same thing to Indonesia. In 1965 a CIA-backed coup deposed President Sukarno and put into power General Suharto. Sukarno was a nationalist who wanted Indonesia to stay neutral in the Cold War. In the immediate aftermath of the coup between 5000,000 and one million people were slaughtered by the dictatorship. The CIA provided the government with lists of dissidents for it to eliminate. A decade after this coup Indonesia invaded neighboring East Timor with US support. Between a fourth and a third of the population of East Timor were murdered in one of the worst genocides of the 20th century. The US sold them the weapons to do it and continued to back Suharto throughout the genocide.

The US doesn't only back invasions by it's puppet governments, as in East Timor, but it also carries out invasions of it's own. Nicaragua was invaded and occupied by US troops in 1912, a situation similar to Iraq today. US troops were temporarily withdrawn in 1925, but a rebellion erupted against the US puppet government so the troops were called back in in 1926. In the later period of the occupation anarchists, including Augusto Sandino, began organizing guerilla warfare against US troops to force them out. The US responded by building up a puppet dictatorship under the Somoza dynasty with a powerfull US-trained national guard and withdrawing it's troops in 1933. The Somozas' national guard suppressed the rebellions and maintained control of the country for the US. The Somozas continued to rule Nicaragua until the late 1970s when they were overthrown by a guerilla war waged by the Sandinista Front For National Liberation (Sandinistas). The Sandinista government implemented a mixed economy and a higher degree of civil liberties compared to it's predecessor and most surrounding states (though it was not without abuses). In the later days of the Somoza dynasty the US moved towards replacing the Somozas with a different puppet dictatorship, "Somocismo without Somoza," but this failed. When Somoza fled the country the Carter administration flew out commanders of the national guard on airplanes with Red Cross markings. These commanders were used to form the nucleus of a US-trained and funded terrorist army, later called the Contras, which was used to start another civil war in Nicaragua and undermine the Sandinistas. The Contras were trained by the US to attack "soft targets," schools, health centers, farms and the like, and succeeded in devastating much of the country. In the run up to the 1988 elections the US publicly announced that it's embargo and support for the Contras would continue unless the electorate voted the Sandinistas out of office and the US backed candidates in. With this threat hanging over their head the Sandinistas were voted out. The US government and media called this a "free election." It wasn't really free because it was coerced through the threat of US-backed terrorism. If an Eastern European country had become independent of the USSR and the Russians responded to this by launching a terrorist war against it and publicly declaring that they had better vote for the Communist party or the USSR would continue to attack that country only a hardline Stalinist would consider it a "free election." Yet when the US does the same thing to Nicaragua it is called a "free election."

Haiti was also occupied by US troops from 1915-1934, an occupation which also has similarities to Iraq today. US marines broke into the national treasury and stole all the gold, shipping it to the First National City Bank in New York. The corvee, forced labor, was resurrected. Haitian peasants were forced, at gun point, to construct railroads, buildings, roads and other infrastructure for US companies and the neocolonial administration. A guerilla war erupted against the US occupiers which US troops brutally suppressed. The US herded Haitians into concentration camps and committed many atrocities, including the 1929 massacre of 264 protesting peasants in Les Cayes. American troops raped Haitian women with impunity. The US has repeatedly intervened in Haiti after the end of the occupation to ensure the continuation of US domination.

Haiti is on one part of the island of Hispaniola, the other part is ruled by the Dominican Republic. In 1916 the Dominican government refused to accept broader US control over it's internal affairs and so the US invaded. US troops occupied the country until 1924, implemented censorship, and disbanded the Dominican congress in favor of the the naked rule of the US military. A guerilla war erupted against the US occupation which the US suppressed, committing many atrocities. After American troops were removed the US backed the rise to power of Rafael Trujillo, who established a corrupt military dictatorship. In a 1930 election Trujillo won with more vote than there were registered voters. Eventually controlling three-fifths of the Dominican economy, Trujillo grew so corrupt that it interfered with US investment. When the Cuban revolution looked like it would triumph the US began to worry that Trujillo's excesses might inspire a similar revolution in the Dominican Republic. In May 1961 US supplied dissidents assassinated him. In 1962 elections resulted in Juan Bosch coming to power. Bosch was pro-business and anti-communist but committed to establishing a "decent democratic regime" and implementing land reform, low-rent housing public works projects and other reforms. A CIA coup overthrew him a few months after winning the election. In 1965 an attempted counter-coup to restore Bosch to power resulted in a civil war. When it looked like the rebels might win the US invaded and suppressed the rebels. The invasion was followed by a series of repressive regimes, backed by the US.

The neighboring island of Cuba has been repeatedly invaded by the United States. From 1896-98 Cuba, a Spanish colony, fought a war for independence against Spain. During this period relations between Spain and the United States became strained. In February 1898 the U.S.S. Maine mysteriously exploded in Havana harbor. The American press immediately blamed the Spanish, even though there was no evidence of Spanish involvement, and war fever swept the country under the slogan "Remember the Maine." The cause of the Maine's explosion remains unknown to this day, some have speculated that it was a covert US operation intended to create a pretext for a US attack against Spain and others have said that it was an accident brought about by a coal bunker fire. Whatever the actual cause, it was used as an excuse for a US war against Spain, which Spain quickly lost. The US claimed it intended to liberate Spain's colonies, including Cuba, but it instead took them over after driving out the Spanish. The war with Spain and peace negotiations were conducted without consulting the Cuban independence movement and most major leaders of the Cuban independence movement, fearing that the US would take over the island, opposed US entry into the war. After the Spanish were driven out, US troops occupied the island until 1902. Cuba was made a republic, but the US inserted the infamous Platt amendment into it's constitution, which limited Cuba's ability to make foreign policy & to borrow money abroad, gave the US a naval base at Guantanamo Bay and gave the US the right to intervene in Cuba - making Cuba a virtual US protectorate. The Cuban Republic became extremely corrupt, setting a pattern which would last in Cuba for fifty years. In 1906 a rebellion erupted and the US sent troops to suppress it, starting another occupation of Cuba which lasted until 1909. Judge Charles Magoon, from Minnesota, was appointed to preside over a provisional government. Magoon institutionalized Cuba's growing corruption, using it as a mechanism of control and dividing patronage among Cuba's contending factions to prevent further factional violence. Cuba became a two-party Republic. There were no real ideological differences between the two parties, they were just competing over who should enjoy the spoils of office.

In 1917 another rebellion erupted, and US troops again occupied the island until 1923. The year after US troops left Gerardo Machado y Morales, formerly the vice president of an American owned utility in Havana, won the Presidential election. Machado increased political assassinations, had strikers fired on and won reelection in 1928 by outlawing the opposition party. His secret police routinely murdered his opponents by throwing them to the sharks in Havana harbor. Unrest against Machado's dictatorship grew until 1933 when he was forced to flee the island. The new government began implementing reforms that threaten US investments on the island but the US sent warships to Havana and backed the seizure of power by Fulgencio Batista y Zaldivar. Batista's dictatorship lasted until the 1940s, when he retired. In a US supported 1952 coup Batista seized power again. Batista's second dictatorship faced increasing unrest from many factions, including a guerilla movement lead by Fidel Castro and Che Guevera, and was overthrown in January 1959. At first the US was not completely hostile towards the revolution, they were willing to replace Batista with another puppet dictator. But the new government threatened US investment, by nationalizing foreign owned companies among other things, and relations between the two countries deteriorated. The US launched an attempted invasion, using a CIA trained army of exiles, at the Bay of Pigs which completely failed. US hostility towards Cuba drove it into the hands of the Soviets. Prior to seizing power Castro was more of a nationalist then a Communist, he wasn't a Marxist-Leninist. With the US hostile towards him and the Soviets offering aid Castro converted to Marxism-Leninism, turned Cuba into a soviet client state and implemented a Red Fascist dictatorship, complete with state-capitalism (nationalized industry), persecution of homosexuals, gulags and suppression of dissidents (including left-wing radicals). The US imposed an embargo on Cuba and launched a terrorist campaign against it including dozens of assassination attempts on Castro, bombings and infiltration of enemy agents into Cuba.

In the Spanish-American war the US also conquered and annexed the Philippines from Spain. The Philippines also had a nationalist movement which was previously fighting Spain for independence. They didn't want to go from one colonial master to another and launched a guerilla war against the US, led by the nationalist Emilio Aguinaldo. The suppression of this insurgency by the United States cost far more money and far more lives than the Spanish-American war. The US responded to the rebellion with state terrorism - setting up concentration camps, torturing and mutilating prisoners, massacring civilians, plundering and burning down villages, raping women and many other atrocities. Sergeant Howard McFarland, a soldier stationed in the Philippines during the war, wrote to the Fairfield Journal of Maine that, "this is a very rich country; and we want it. My way of getting it would be to put a regiment into a skirmish line, and blow every nigger into a nigger heaven. On Thursday, March 29, eighteen of my company killed seventy-five nigger bolomen and ten of the nigger gunners.... When we find one that is not dead, we have bayonets." L. F. Adams, a soldier in the Washington regiment fighting in the war, described the scene in the aftermath of a battle: "In the path of the Washington Regiment and Battery D of the Sixth Artillery there were 1,008 dead niggers, and a great many wounded. We burned all their houses. I don't know how many men, women, and children the Tennessee boys did kill. They would not take any prisoners." One of the more famous atrocities was the Moro massacre, in which US troops slaughtered at least 900 men, women and children. Emilio Aguinaldo was captured in 1901 but the US wasn't able to fully suppress the insurgency until 1913. The Philippines remained a US colony until 1946, when the US granted independence but supported a series of corrupt puppet governments, including the dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos.

The conquest of the Philippines extended American power into Asia. Fifty years later the US continued to exert that power in it's assault on Laos. In 1958 leftists, including the Pathet Lao, won the only truly free elections in the history of Laos, so the US proceeded to subvert and overthrow the government. Over the next several years Laotian governments came and went at a frantic pace with a series of CIA coups and counter-coups. Starting in the late 50s the CIA started recruiting a mercenary army consisting of about 40,000 men to attack the Pathet Lao (when other countries do that the US calls it terrorism). Eventually this drove much of the population into the hands of authoritarian communists and lead to a civil war, with the Pathet Lao facing off against a right-wing dictatorship supported by the US. The Pathet Lao later received aid from North Vietnam, which hoped to force the US out of Laos so that the US could no longer use it as a base from which sabotage teams and other forces could attack North Vietnam. As the Pathet Lao advanced the US stepped up it's attacks, launching massive bombings against the country. Between 1965 and 1975 the United States dropped over two million tons of bombs on Laos, more than all sides had dropped in World War Two. This didn't stop the Pathet Lao from coming to power and implementing a Leninist dictatorship, but it did utterly devastate their society. This war was kept secret, not to stop the Laotians from finding out (they knew they were being bombed), but to keep it from the American public, which might have objected to bombing whole villages out of existence.

The only possible reason to join the military is if you have no other choice. The situation of MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr is called economic conscription. If one is forced to join the military one should do everything possible to stir up disconent in the ranks & incite mutiny. The only people you should shoot are your officers. If you have to shoot at "the enemy" intentionally miss. "The enemy" isn't your enemy - he's the enemy of the same ruling class that oppresses you and made you so poor that you have no choice but to join the military. Always remember, your enemy isn't the folks on the other side - most of them are also working class and thus your allies - but the officers who give you orders and the ruling class they serve. See also Harass the Brass (http://www.infoshop.org/military.html) and No War But the Class War (http://www.geocities.com/nowar_buttheclasswar/) for more radical rescources & criticiques of the military.

[demonio comunista]

I'm going into the marines straight from high school. im in ROTC and just because of that, straight out of basic training i will be promoted 3 ranks. thats 300 more a month :D

[hawarameen]

i have to say you dont half talk some shit commieboy,

i really considered joining the pesh merga (kurdish guerilla army) some years ago, even bought the plane ticket home, but i will admit i couldnt do it, massacres of 10 years ago really affected me.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by demonio [email protected] 14 2004, 07:46 PM
I'm going into the marines straight from high school. im in ROTC and just because of that, straight out of basic training i will be promoted 3 ranks. thats 300 more a month :D
Well now, aren't you a real sweetie-poo? :wub:

A whole $300 extra a month...!

Professional killing is definitely a growing career opportunity. :angry:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[commie kg]

Seriously, guys, if you think that going into the military is the right thing to do, then you seroiusly need to reevaluate your political position... You shouldn't even be here. You should be out intimidating strikers, or making fun of some poor people. It kind of fits with your whole thing, right?

[SittingBull47]

I hardly agree with the politics of my country, but that doesn't mean I don't care enough to protect it. I would definitely join the Ranger unit of the US Army or possibly Marines. I know the service has it's shortcomings as well as benefits, but as long as I agree with the purpose of service (you can change jobs or transfer if you don't want any part of an operation) I would join.

[Kez]

the point isnt whether u agree with current politics

Point is you become a tool of the capitalist army

Having said that, in a revolutionary period (ie not now) we need comrades in soldier ranks to make them join the workers and see thru the capitalist class.

[MiniOswald]

redstar your contract killing Idea is very good, if you ever need a side kick to back you up for anything Id be more that willing

:ph34r: :ph34r:
we'd be ninjas in the night!

[commie kg]

I hardly agree with the politics of my country, but that doesn't mean I don't care enough to protect it.

Is shamelessly imperializing third world nations really protecting your country? Do you feel strongly enough about such meaningless constructs as the "country" to kill for it?


I would definitely join the Ranger unit of the US Army or possibly Marines.

... And be the first to die in America's next imperial excursion.


I know the service has it's shortcomings as well as benefits, but as long as I agree with the purpose of service (you can change jobs or transfer if you don't want any part of an operation) I would join.

And what benefits would these be? A nice psychological re-engineering? The best in the world, you know...

[Morpheus]

Anyone thinking of joining the military should read the book "What Uncle Sam Really Wants" by Noam Chomsky. It's a very good analysis of US foreign policy. You can find it online at http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 15 2004, 10:03 PM

And what benefits would these be? A nice psychological re-engineering? The best in the world, you know...
I was thinking more along the lines of survival skills and military training. All the Psychological brainwashing in the world couldn't keep me from changing my leftist point of views.

But yes, the armed forces are a tool of imperialism (the massive ones, anyway). Why not have a military fighting for America to stay in America?

[Scottish_Militant]

http://www.nebraskaatheists.org/USARMY.jpg

[El Tipo]

redstar2000, I luv you <3, nice text.

Commie(wnb)boy, Yes and when you brought up the Osama Bin Laden.. May I just tell you that he has "made by U.&#036;." tag in it.

[Pingu]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:23 PM
I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN&#33; and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they&#39;ve done.


start with bush then ;)

but i think you shouldn&#39;t join the US army, you will be fighting for imperilastic capitalists, not for your country

[God of Imperia]

That&#39;s true, but what should someone do to protect his country? Join the police? Defenitly NOT the CIA&#33;&#33;&#33; What those have done ... They are one of the most dangerous terrorist groups in the world.

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:23 PM
I would join the armed services to protect our country and other countries from people like hitler, OSAMA BIN LADEN&#33; and other worthless pricks that think they can get away with the shit they&#39;ve done.







And doing the dirty work for Bush, who in your words is also a "worthless prick"

[God of Imperia]

I think we all agree, Bush is one of the last persons to be in charge of such a strong nation ... He should have never been chosen president, but I fear he will be chosen again (He might ...) I hope that his opponent is better, but I doubt it ...

[Comrade Zeke]

Look Commie boy......Don&#39;t listen to Redstar........as I said he is a 60 year old fat, asshole,siting in his underwhere in his rich classy house in SanFransico......he is pretending to be Commie, when in relity he is a rich fat Yuppie who enjoys looking at Porn, he also tells the lamest sarcastic jokes. Do whatever you want for your country. BUT I SAY TO YOu DON&#39;T JOIN THE MILITARY. Commie boy you want to be a Communist right?? You want to help your country??? Well why do you have to join the Imperlist military that wants to take over the world??? Why don&#39;t you join the Sucerity forces at the airport, deffend American intrests in YOUR OWN COUNTRY and make sure a disater, like Semtember 11th never happens again. Or join the U.S. Coast gaurd they don&#39;t go to war.....they protect the coast from the Columbian cocaine dealers. Or join the Park Rangers and protect nature. Or the police force, protect there American streets of New York from more terrirorists that might sneak in. You could also think about a Carrer as becoming a deer hunter in New Hampshire....you help the Red Necks deffend there state against intruders from Massacuseets, :D kidding.
Volonteer for the community.....be a soliders for the old woman and young children of the great country of America. Not an Imprelist solider who is going to go out there and have to kill people just because the government says so. We all know that the Americans will be driven out of Iraq. Just to stay a fact in your eailer statemnet would I join the Soveit or Cuban armies??? Mabey the Cuban but not the Soviet because I know what they have to deal with, a Russian lives in my house he was an ex-Soveit solider. The Soveit army is just as bad as the American army. All I am trying to say is go out there and do something good for your community...help out your neighboors. Don&#39;t join the Marrines just because it looks cool to carry a gun or be Patriotic, join the workers in strikes or help the airport succerity. As they say, "Coast Gaurd&#33; Jobs that matter&#33;"
All I am trying to say is join the army if you want, kill some inoscent woman and children and then when there husbands come home to find them killed they will come after you swearing to Allah, and they will take their suppior Ak-47s and blow your head off and your body will come home and your mother and your father and all your siblings and mabey even a girlfriend will weep only because you just wanted to go out and fight. Be patriotoc love your country but love it not by fighting wars far from home, but wars against proverty in our country and for the sake of the working class and the poor class. I am thinking about doing this myself.....(Nan I am really moving to Ireland and helping their government out) But just join a safe job where you still get hold a gun, and protect the nation without having to be killed in someone far away desert.
Zeke

[TC]

Its one thing to join an army of a socialist country, or even a capitalist nation that traditionally hasn&#39;t waged offensive wars (like France or Mexico), or certaintly an Arab nation that might have to fight against imperialism (like the Syrian army or the underground Iraqi army).

But if you&#39;re in the American military, for a communist, your choices are desertion, frag an officer, defect to the enemy, kill yourself, or hope to get your brains blown out by a resistence bullet.

[RedCeltic]

Think about it this way commie boy...

What will you learn if you join the USMC?

Learn to take orders, spit shine your shoes, march, take care of your uniform, yourself etc...
learn how to fire various firearms, unarmed combat, and various other methods of murder.

Here are some useful alternitives where you can learn some useful skills that are actually
more applicable to the real world&#33;

Help people of other counteries buld a better life for themselves, learn valuble skills and travel.

Peace Corps (http://www.peacecorps.gov/)

Or, do the same but in the United States

americorps (http://www.americorps.org/)

Help workers organize in a labor union at their workplace, get paid much more than the militery
without having to fight a hostile enemy (except for bosses and scabs.)

The organizing Institute (http://www.afl-cio.org/aboutunions/oi/)

Get all the benifits of Militery service without having to actually kill anyone

US Coast Guard (http://www.uscg.mil/USCG.shtm)

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by demonio [email protected] 14 2004, 07:46 PM
I&#39;m going into the marines straight from high school. im in ROTC and just because of that, straight out of basic training i will be promoted 3 ranks. thats 300 more a month :D
OK... I don&#39;t throw my Veteran status around very much, it&#39;s not something I&#39;m quite proud of as it resembles a time in my life when I was dumb and made a big mistake because I wasn&#39;t sure what to do with my life.


YOU ARE MAKING A BIG MISTAKE&#33;

Joining the militery is like walking up to a cop and asking him if you can skip the whole crime, arrest, and court and just be sent right to jail for four years.

Think about it&#33; You eat crapy food, sit on some shity base or locked away inside some ship, wearing all the same clothing and having orders being barked at you all the time. Being told when to sleep, when to get up, where you will live (and who with) what job you are to spend your day doing, and who you will kill for the countery.

As for the ROTC rank thing. I am supprised that the USMC didn&#39;t tell you that you do not skip two ranks in the Marines as you do the other branches of service. In the Marines, you only go up to E-2, while all the others you go up to E-3... to make E-4 in the Marines is actually much harder than in the other services as advancement is low in the Marines in general. Making E-5 in the Navy can be difficult too, depending on what rate you are. It all depends on how many higher ranking personel are needed for you to advance, so basicly it depends on someone retiring or getting killed for you to go up.

The militery will also tell you that you can learn a trade while in the service, and therefore easily get a job when you get out. This however is a lie. Many of the trade skills that you learn in the Navy for example are vastly different than outside. Militery wiring is different than civilian wiring, militery aircraft are diffrent than civilian aircraft... etc..

They may even send you to a school to learn a trade and than you&#39;ll find yourself doing something totally different. I went to two welding schools, yet found myself unclogging toilets on a ship for four years. Being that you want to join the Marines, heck you may get trained in aircraft mechanics and than find yourself in the jungle killing some communist revolutionaries, or more likely... Iraq

The fact is, you can get better job training that is actually applicable to the real world by going to a trade school. Go find out about getting into an electronic/computer repair trade school. You&#39;ll have to take a cetificate test, but you will make a heck of a lot more money after the 6 - 7 months of training than a whole four years of working in the same trade in the militery.

Take it from a Vet&#33;

The militery is the last place in the world you want to be these days&#33;&#33;

[commieboy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 07:19 AM


Think about it&#33; You eat crapy food, sit on some shity base or locked away inside some ship, wearing all the same clothing and having orders being barked at you all the time. Being told when to sleep, when to get up, where you will live (and who with) what job you are to spend your day doing, and who you will kill for the countery.






im sorry i havent been replying to this thread, forgot about it....but what you just explained there redceltic....is what alot of these communist countries are, i&#39;ve been questioning my idealology for the past few weeks...and think about it...what you&#39;ve just said here is EXACTLY what they did the the soviet union, N. Korea, and even Cuba....

BTW i saw that you mentioned learning a trade...and i just spoke to a Marine recruiter at a career fair on thursday. And he said i could pursue Journalism in the marines...is that bullshit i smell?

But hey, i&#39;ve got some good news, my mom got a job at a Jesuit college and apparently, i get totally free tuition now....

Fuck the marines, im getting an education first

[Commie Girl]

:lol: Protecting the U&#036;...from what? They are the biggest terrorists on the loose right now&#33;

[RedCeltic]

im sorry i havent been replying to this thread, forgot about it....but what you just explained there redceltic....is what alot of these communist countries are, i&#39;ve been questioning my idealology for the past few weeks...and think about it...what you&#39;ve just said here is EXACTLY what they did the the soviet union, N. Korea, and even Cuba....

Did I ever say that any other militery, or athoriterian police state was any better? No I didn&#39;t.


BTW i saw that you mentioned learning a trade...and i just spoke to a Marine recruiter at a career fair on thursday. And he said i could pursue Journalism in the marines...is that bullshit i smell?

You sure can.. Watch "Full Metal Jacket" the main individual in that movie was a Marine Journalist. However as I said, getting in as a journalist and making rank depends on how many are needed. Plus, your recruiter&#39;s primary goal is to get you to sign up, not to tell you the truth flat out. I had never met a shipmate in the Navy that thought his recruiter didn&#39;t lie to him in some way.

I&#39;m not saying that they are totally evil, but they don&#39;t give you all the facts right out. Sure there are some decent jobs in the Marines, yet remember that your primary duty is to the marine Corps and if you are told to go to the front lines, that&#39;s where you&#39;ll go. As a marine, you are also the first in, and the last out.


But hey, i&#39;ve got some good news, my mom got a job at a Jesuit college and apparently, i get totally free tuition now....

Fuck the marines, im getting an education first

There you go&#33; I think that&#39;s much more important in the long run&#33;

[pandora]

Try the peace corp, rode the bus today with a man who had his chest and face eye burned arm gone, migranes etc due to an explosion of FRIENDLY FIRE, in Vietnam yeah that&#39;s what they do to Leftists in the US military, oops. Just read JARHEAD by Matthew Swaddord[sp]. Also although he was in the hospital 2 years and can&#39;t work as an electrician anymore he only got 20% disabilitiy, appealed after 10 years 40%, talked to a Vet who had him write the politicians, 19 years later finally got full disabilitiy, thank you man for serving your country now take a hike eh?

Once thought of joining when the five mile long cargo moved from Serbia to Croatia, asked the recruiter if I could fight just in that one, they of course said no, they use you as they like, so there&#39;s no room for opinions.
Of course when I went over there the situation was a lot more complex, with Muslims in Croatia being treated like shit and arms bought from the US everywhere, of course the Serbs had loads of Soviet stuff they shouldn&#39;t have had either, which gets to the real Shit...

War aint nothing but a way for arms dealers to sell their goods, and their goods kill, that&#39;s what they do. Anyone who thinks anything else needs to take a trip. Coming back from Iraq a ship&#39;s captain told me they have crappy rations and no cold water, even in 140 degree temperatures, and not wanting to get shot at they&#39;re all hulled up in metal ships, normally he doesn&#39;t feel sorry for em cause they asked for it but this time he took guys on his boat and fed them, worse conditions than Somalia he said.
Everyone wants to get out but they froze all apps. 20 hour shifts back to back no time off, one guy figured out he was working for like 20 cents an hour and getting shot at to invade someone else&#39;s country, Oh Joy&#33;