Philosophy and suicide

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Every so often suicide seems to prop it head up on this board as well as cutting yourself etc.

I have never felt suicidal but a boy of 16 did commit suicide a few months back and I decided to go to my college library and see what philosophy had to say.

I read Hume's essay on suicide and Schopeanhauer Essay on Pessimism and was just wondering what you guys thought.

I have major problems with Scophenhaer as he advocares and admires those that commit the act yet sat at a big chair with his dog ignoring people for most of his life.

As Nietzsche says, a philosopher must lead by example which leads me to Camus and the Myth of Sysiphus which opens with the statement, There is but one truly philosophical question and that is whether one should commit suicide.

I think the debate may centre around this book considering many more of you are likely to have read it

I highly recommend you look for Hume's essay although it is difficult to come across.

The reading of the aforementioned books has instilled in me a view that suicide is pointless.

[Trissy]

157. The thought of suicide is a powerful solace: by means of it one gets through many a bad night. Beyond Good and Evil By Nietzsche

Although I have never been close to suicide I think it is fair to say that the thought of suicide rests on the shoulder of all people who recognise the absurdity of life. It's paradoxical if you think about it because the act itself is the sign of the strength of someone has within them as well as their ultimate weakness.

Schopenhauer probably admired it because if you think about it suicide is the fundamental denial of the Will and in particular the Will to life which can be seen as perhaps the strongest urge within us. The Will leads to suffering and Schopnerhauer admired all forms of asceticism. Suicide is in the end the final and strongest form of denial, a denial that denies the self even the right to exist. The fact he never commit suicide himself can perhaps been seen as a sign of his weakness before the Will he tried to fight all his life.


In a sense, and as in melodrama, killing yourself amounts to confessing. It is confessing that life is too much for you or that you do not understand it. Let's not go too far in such analogies, however, but rather return to everyday words. It is merely confessing that life "is not worth the trouble." Living, naturally, is never easy. You continue making the gestures commanded by existence for many reasons, the first of which is habit. Dying voluntarily implies that you have recognized, even instinctively, the ridiculous character of that habit, the absence of any profound reason for living, the insane character of that daily agitation, and the uselessness of suffering. The Myth of Sisyphus By Camus

In the end I think I have to take a Sartrean take on suicide, namely the idea that suicide is meaningless because it allows the individual no future and hence no means by which to define ones essence....

[Wenty]

Camus thought suicide was giving into the absurd and that we should live a life of revolt. Thats quite well known and i think logical.

I actually have that Hume essay in western philosophy: an anthology that we had to buy. Will give it a musing over.

Sartre has often been accused (wrongly) that he is advocating a philosophy of despair. In a great lecture in 1945, now in print called 'existentialism and humanism' he rebuts these views. However, i think there is perhaps a kernel of truth in that opinion. The ideas of constant abandonment, responsibility and forlorness are perhaps too much for many.

I constantly come back to the idea of 'forced existence'; this for me can be overwhelming at times.

[kingbee]

"suicide requires two factors- realising the meaningless absurdity of life, and then overcoming one's attachment to life"

someone also said that man made god in order not to kill himself, and that killing yourself, is bringing divinity to earth, and therfore the ultimate independent act.

[SittingBull47]

personally i think suicide is a cowards way out.

[cubist]

personally i think a fool thinks suicide will do anything but harm to those of which the suicidal person matters.

its the sorryist state to be in so self centered and pittiful that you don't realise that people who do care will be torn apart. at the same time you have to look into the psycology of why it happens, how someone can get to a state of self centeredness so much that they wallow in theyre own and other people self pity. please correct me if i am wrong. but i fnid suicide a horrible thought and the wrong way out.

[BOZG]

personally i think a fool thinks suicide will do anything but harm to those of which the suicidal person matters.

its the sorryist state to be in so self centered and pittiful that you don't realise that people who do care will be torn apart. at the same time you have to look into the psycology of why it happens, how someone can get to a state of self centeredness so much that they wallow in theyre own and other people self pity. please correct me if i am wrong. but i fnid suicide a horrible thought and the wrong way out.

Do you know what it's like to be suicidal?

[cubist]

yes, i also no what its like to have a family member do it.

[BOZG]

Then you should know what it's like.

[cubist]

no shit,

it doesn't explain why people do it, to think about how shit your life is and want to die is different to dying don't you think. what made me not do it? what stops most people from doing it? have you felt suicidal? why are you here still? what stopped you?

thats why i said its more important to look in to the psycology of why. its very difficult to do that as the subjects are dead we can only grasp what people who have felt suicidal and why theyu didn't do it.

[BOZG]

I never said we shouldn't look into the whys. I think it's fucking ridiculous to generally classify it as a self-centred and self-pitying act.

[cubist]

then say that, why is it ridiculous? its the upmost point of self pity, you pity yourself so much you want to hurt people by killing yourself.
selfless isn't it... I think NO

the japanese samuri may have seen it as honourable but it was more dishonorable to be executed.

[BOZG]

It's impossible to say why it's not always self-pitying because I cannot take you into my head.



you pity yourself so much you want to hurt people by killing yourself

Find me one person who commits suicide for that reason.


Why should someone be forced to live their life for someone else? Is that not a selfish act on behalf of the other person?

[cubist]

true, but to see it from those that it affects after your deaths opinion would show you why it is

now obviously the person doesn't commit suicide to hurt others but thats the effect it has,

living your life and not living your life is always your choice, you should never live for someone else.

when you were suicidal if you were what did you feel who were you most angry at, what did you hate most.

with me i was most angry with me, i was most annoyed with the fact that i felt i had let my rents and family down. and i was going to kill my self, depression and insomnia are very capable of driving you that far. but killing myself would hurt my family so much more. i would have let them down by doing that, i wouldn't have got out of the situation.

having lost someone close to suicide i am very onesided but it is selfcentered.

[BOZG]

Can someone who's incapable of feeling emotion be self-centred?

[cubist]

when you say incapable of feeling emotion. do you mean you don't feel for others, you don't have a feeling of pain or closeness to your family? you are unable to show affection?

do you get the i should be sad about this feeling but i am not?

if you don't want to answer publically please PM me

[BOZG]

That was a very badly phrased question. I tried to edit but server was lagging. I mean that question in a very broad sense, not necessarily suicide though it didn't come into my mind from that.

Someone who lacks emotional capacities is generally considered psychotic. Is someone with that mindframe able to be self-centred because they feel nothing or because they have that mindframe are they completely self-centred?

[BOZG]

Personally,

I feel some level of emotion but its quite minimal. The majority of it is just pure anger and hate. I do not feel closeness or any emotional attachment to pretty much everyone, there are exceptions. Other than that, nothing moves me. In another thread GR and Redstar were talking about depression felt due to being a leftist (simplified). I cannot relate to that at all. If I was to be brutally honest, I could just give up the idea of socialism with no effects. I live an abstract life, I take from feelings I had maybe 4 or 5 years ago and apply them to now. The emotion I show to most people is what I would have shown them in the past but right now I feel little or nothing.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:21 PM
personally i think a fool thinks suicide will do anything but harm to those of which the suicidal person matters.

its the sorryist state to be in so self centered and pittiful that you don't realise that people who do care will be torn apart. at the same time you have to look into the psycology of why it happens, how someone can get to a state of self centeredness so much that they wallow in theyre own and other people self pity. please correct me if i am wrong. but i fnid suicide a horrible thought and the wrong way out.
I don't agree that suicide is all about self. If you determine that your life is not worth living, it wouldn't have to be based on just self interest. Also, in some cases, the person that doesn't want thier life isn't appriciated by "those of which the suicidal person matters." Can you really blame people that resort to such extreme solutions in such a world where society is so mislead and everyone is confused?

Who knows, all situations are different. I agree that suicide is the wrong way to go but so are all of the other forms of escapism that almost everyone engages in to some extent. Some people have nothing but a way out, they are desperate, there is only so much pressure and suffering that any given person can take.


true, but to see it from those that it affects after your deaths opinion would show you why it is

now obviously the person doesn't commit suicide to hurt others but thats the effect it has,

living your life and not living your life is always your choice, you should never live for someone else.

when you were suicidal if you were what did you feel who were you most angry at, what did you hate most.

with me i was most angry with me, i was most annoyed with the fact that i felt i had let my rents and family down. and i was going to kill my self, depression and insomnia are very capable of driving you that far. but killing myself would hurt my family so much more. i would have let them down by doing that, i wouldn't have got out of the situation.

having lost someone close to suicide i am very onesided but it is selfcentered.
I don't understand why you shouldn't to some extend live for others, it helps keep me motivated at least. Suicidal is not a very clear word, to want to die, to think of dying or to try to die; it's really a destructive process more than any state, there are no clear bounderies. Have you been suicidal? It's hard to messure such a thing, just like emotion. At my lowest point, I was full of Anger, hate, hoplessness, and I lost much of my appriciation for myself and was just kind of disconnected. It took me a long time to climb out of that emotional pit but having defined reasons to live really helps.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 07:04 PM
Personally,

I feel some level of emotion but its quite minimal. The majority of it is just pure anger and hate. I do not feel closeness or any emotional attachment to pretty much everyone, there are exceptions. Other than that, nothing moves me. In another thread GR and Redstar were talking about depression felt due to being a leftist (simplified). I cannot relate to that at all. If I was to be brutally honest, I could just give up the idea of socialism with no effects. I live an abstract life, I take from feelings I had maybe 4 or 5 years ago and apply them to now. The emotion I show to most people is what I would have shown them in the past but right now I feel little or nothing.
I think some emotions can drown out others. I still feel this way to a large extent. I try to overcome my anger and hate; just to live in spite of such things. I have heard before that love is similar and likely parallel to hate. This explain how I think they can effect each other. Mixing emotions gets very complecated. It's hard to feel closeness to people when you have such other strong emotions and when you've delt with some of them leaving only mental scars that you wonder if they can ever really heal. I think I know what you mean, sometimes not feeling and acting to compensate for it. From what some people feel and go through, emotions are suppressed, ignored and turned down to some extent. I'm curious to know if you could acctually walk away from the leftist community without being effected on some level but it reminds me know of how I was posting about being disconnected or detached before.

[BOZG]

I'm curious to know if you could acctually walk away from the leftist community without being effected on some level but it reminds me know of how I was posting about being disconnected or detached before.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm taking a bit of a break from activism in the coming weeks so I'll see how it effects me. For me, socialism is a Catch 22, it's what keeps me alive as such because it keeps me active, it gives me something to divert anger into but at the same time, it is killing me, draining me of everything. I know it will kill me in the end.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I never knew socialism affected you so much Stephen but let me tell me how it has affected me leaving the party since we after all were in the same party.

First of all, you do realise you have a lot more free time, a hell of a lot of it to be honest but it allows you to re-evaluate what you have learned and to see whether or not you feel it is worth the fight, in your case for your life as it seems you are saying, in my case, my mind, my college work was being stiffled especially philosophy, I was losing my objectivity on every issue.

[Mr. Morrison]

"There is but one truly philosophical problem and that is suicide." - Albert Camus

This has to be one of the best quotes I have ever read, thanks for tipping me off about it, Geist!

As for suicide, I'm all for it, in principle. It's each person's choice.

Yet some people seem to find it amusing to give a little push...

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/ (warning, some may find this site more than a little distasteful, but I feel their attitudes towards life and individuality could be discussed in a philosophical way...)

EDIT: forgot, that to get to the suicide part of their page you have to click a small link up in the left corner, so I did it for ya: http://ash.spaink.net/

[BOZG]

Socialism is my life, it's as simple as that. I do not know whether it will always be that way or whether it's just because there's nothing else to fill that breach though.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 09:09 PM
Socialism is my life, it's as simple as that. I do not know whether it will always be that way or whether it's just because there's nothing else to fill that breach though.
You really should address it though, nothing worse than realising at forty you wasted your youth.

[BOZG]

I lost my youth a long time ago.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

You going to the march tomorrow?

[BOZG]

Most likely. My stomach has been a bit dodgy since Paddy's Day so there's a possibility I won't be there but a slim one.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Rite o, I'll be there anyway.