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Nyder
9th March 2004, 17:38
The tragedy of the commons refers to the use of a collective resource by people who have a private interest in using it.

For example:

If a paddock is collectively owned by sheep farmers, then each farmer will try and get as much sheep as they can to graze in the paddock because they do not bear the costs of doing so therefore the best strategy is to try and use up as much of the paddock they can with their sheep in order to maximise their output.

This quickly wastes the shared resources - thus increasing the scope for exploitation of natural resource and destruction of the environment. It is also an extremely inefficient use of a scarce resource.

On the other hand, if the paddock was privately owned - the owner would bear the full cost of her use of the resource. Thus to maximise her output - she would have to use the land the most productively, by not squandering the paddock but maintaining it by only allocating the optimal number of sheep to the paddock so that they don't over-graze and destroy it.

And there you have the Tragedy of the Commons. It definitely provides an insight into why commu-socialist countries are the worst in terms of environmental degradation and exploitation of natural resources. It also explains how a commu-socialist country could never sustain itself for very long.

Of course you could argue that each individual would be forced to not take more than their share, but that would be extremely hard to administer.

STI
9th March 2004, 20:15
From what I understand, the commons existed before capitalism. In order for communism/socialism/anarchism to be successfully created, the working class must live under capitalism and openly reject it. It's an irrelivant example.

New Tolerance
9th March 2004, 20:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 06:38 PM
The tragedy of the commons refers to the use of a collective resource by people who have a private interest in using it.

For example:

If a paddock is collectively owned by sheep farmers, then each farmer will try and get as much sheep as they can to graze in the paddock because they do not bear the costs of doing so therefore the best strategy is to try and use up as much of the paddock they can with their sheep in order to maximise their output.

This quickly wastes the shared resources - thus increasing the scope for exploitation of natural resource and destruction of the environment. It is also an extremely inefficient use of a scarce resource.

On the other hand, if the paddock was privately owned - the owner would bear the full cost of her use of the resource. Thus to maximise her output - she would have to use the land the most productively, by not squandering the paddock but maintaining it by only allocating the optimal number of sheep to the paddock so that they don't over-graze and destroy it.

And there you have the Tragedy of the Commons. It definitely provides an insight into why commu-socialist countries are the worst in terms of environmental degradation and exploitation of natural resources. It also explains how a commu-socialist country could never sustain itself for very long.

Of course you could argue that each individual would be forced to not take more than their share, but that would be extremely hard to administer.
LOL, what the heck is this?

The word "captialism" is spelled "C A P T I A L I S M".

Not "C O M M U - S O C I A L I S T".

lucid
9th March 2004, 20:24
Originally posted by New [email protected] 9 2004, 09:20 PM
The word "captialism" is spelled "C A P T I A L I S M".

Not "C O M M U - S O C I A L I S T".
Now this is funny. :D


Seriously, this site is definitely in the top 10 when it comes to comedy sites. It’s more fun than The Onion!

Xvall
9th March 2004, 22:31
http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~jbusby/images/dinosaur.gif

Xvall
9th March 2004, 22:33
And he's right. Moldova, Cuba, and North Korea are #1 on the environmental hazard list. This is why they must be pacified and liberated so that we can make them clean again, just like the United States, Mexico, and other capitalistic countries.

New Tolerance
9th March 2004, 22:35
Originally posted by lucid+Mar 9 2004, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lucid @ Mar 9 2004, 09:24 PM)
New [email protected] 9 2004, 09:20 PM
The word "captialism" is spelled "C A P T I A L I S M".

Not "C O M M U - S O C I A L I S T".
Now this is funny. :D


Seriously, this site is definitely in the top 10 when it comes to comedy sites. It’s more fun than The Onion&#33; [/b]
hehe

New Tolerance
9th March 2004, 22:42
Garrett Hardin, the guy who wrote the book "Tragedy of the Commons" wanted to reduce the human population to 100 million so that everything would be "sustainable". Does he simply expect everyone to stop having kids?

Lardlad95
9th March 2004, 22:57
...Yeah you&#39;ve also left out an important factor.

The actual tragedy of the commons occured a few hundred years ago in England. The king provided land for the sheep farmers for free.

1. The King never established rules and guidelines for the commons. There was no structure and thus anything goes. In communism and socialism there are organizations that over see the usage and distribution of resources. Thus this tragedy wont occur.

2. Since we&#39;ve already seen the tragedy of the commons occur, we can prevent it. I mean after it all it isn&#39;t a hard problem to solve.

3. The only situation where this would be a hard problem to solve is in anarchism.

j.guevara
9th March 2004, 23:44
these problems could be solved in anarchism. i dont know why you assume their would be no organization.

STI
10th March 2004, 00:19
Originally posted by New [email protected] 9 2004, 11:42 PM
Garrett Hardin, the guy who wrote the book "Tragedy of the Commons" wanted to reduce the human population to 100 million so that everything would be "sustainable". Does he simply expect everyone to stop having kids?
Don&#39;t be so stupid. He wants us to kill all the non- whites so we can have only 100 million super-superior people inhabiting the world. Duh.

Lardlad95
10th March 2004, 03:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 12:44 AM
these problems could be solved in anarchism. i dont know why you assume their would be no organization.
to the extent of communism and or socialism?

Guest1
10th March 2004, 03:29
Yes, you do something stupid like taking more than your share under Anarchism, you starve.

Simple.

Nyder
10th March 2004, 13:32
1. The King never established rules and guidelines for the commons. There was no structure and thus anything goes. In communism and socialism there are organizations that over see the usage and distribution of resources. Thus this tragedy wont occur.


Yes, you do something stupid like taking more than your share under Anarchism, you starve.


these problems could be solved in anarchism. i dont know why you assume their would be no organization.

Problem easily solved, huh?

Of course you would only have to eliminate human being&#39;s tendency towards self-interest. Somehow most lefties are gullible enough to believe that under commu-socialism (I group them both together because basically they are about banishing private property rights), self-interest will somehow automatically disappear. :rolleyes:

It&#39;s also a classic Prisoner&#39;s Dilemma problem.

But then again if you can&#39;t accept there are no flaws in your precious ideology perhaps you really do have a &#39;blind faith&#39; in it - like a type of religion. Even free market theorists acknowledge and incorporate the failings of the market as part of their ongoing study.

j.guevara
10th March 2004, 16:15
a government suppresssing self interest and playing the babysitting role has workeed beautifully in the past.

STI
10th March 2004, 22:59
Of course you would only have to eliminate human being&#39;s tendency towards self-interest.

Capitalism&#39;s application of the principle of "eat or be eaten" causes the need for concentration on self- interest to be employed. Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem.

The idea of &#39;human nature&#39; is unproven and unscientific, and thus has no place in any serious discussion regarding anything but human nature (ie: "What is human nature", "Does human nature exist?", etc.)

Exploited Class
10th March 2004, 23:46
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 11:38 AM
The tragedy of the commons refers to the use of a collective resource by people who have a private interest in using it.

For example:










If a paddock is collectively owned by sheep farmers, then each farmer will try and get as much sheep as they can to graze in the paddock because they do not bear the costs of doing so therefore the best strategy is to try and use up as much of the paddock they can with their sheep in order to maximise their output.

That is for profit, and that is why they are trying to maximize their sheep&#39;s output. You can&#39;t give something away for free in a profit oriented economy and not expect it to be abused. Since there is an ability for failure within a capitalist system and competition arises from that, the sheep herder is going to abuse priveliges to win that competition.

Also, it should be noted that not only is he trying to succeed or maximize his performance versus the other farmers with his actions, by grabbing the land and using it up prior to competitiors, he weakens them. This allows for him to buy out their farm at a cheaper price.


This quickly wastes the shared resources - thus increasing the scope for exploitation of natural resource and destruction of the environment. It is also an extremely inefficient use of a scarce resource.
That is what generally happens in competition, it is an all out win mentality. We&#39;ve seen it from both sides, N. Korea, USSR, USA, Mexico, S. America and Eurupe and Africa. Africa will wipe out jungles for the short term profits of wood sells, the land becomes unusable and the ecological disasters occure afterwards. S. America has done the samething with the rain forests. USA clear cutting forests all over the Pacific Northwest has caused a lot of ecological disasters with removal of topsoil after mud slides, non diverse replanted forests and removal habitat. Strip minning..ect..ect All at the hands of private industry. N. Korea and USSR&#39;s examples are because they were in direct competition with the Western World and cut corners to achieve their desired goals.

Since private industry is all about profit and doing things as cheap as possible, private industry is less likely to care about the after effects of their cost cutting techniques, if fines are levied, they just make sure that they save more through their actions or lack there of, than the fines.


This quickly wastes the shared resources - thus increasing the scope for exploitation of natural resource and destruction of the environment. It is also an extremely inefficient use of a scarce resource.
Again you have to go back to why they did this, competition and market success is what drove them to do this.


On the other hand, if the paddock was privately owned - the owner would bear the full cost of her use of the resource. Thus to maximise her output - she would have to use the land the most productively, by not squandering the paddock but maintaining it by only allocating the optimal number of sheep to the paddock so that they don&#39;t over-graze and destroy it.
All she is doing is putting in rules where there was no rules before. You had a competition based scenerio above with no rules on how to govern it and with the possibility of failure to spark motivation (motivation directed at personal gain not community gain). If the person above is just wanting to create enough capital to re-invest in another market, she could be more than willing to deystroy the land by maximizing the number of sheep, past the sustaining level of the land, deystroy the land, sell the sheep, make a profit and seek a new market.

If the sheep market is not producing enough profit for her to leave that market comfortably, or the price of sheep products falls rapidly, she has an incentive to do the above.


And there you have the Tragedy of the Commons. It definitely provides an insight into why commu-socialist countries are the worst in terms of environmental degradation and exploitation of natural resources. It also explains how a commu-socialist country could never sustain itself for very long.
Ahh but when something is owned by all and not the few, then people have a much larger stake in what happens to the land that will be handed down to the next generations. If there is no profit motive and no do or die market competition, people have a stake in seeing that land survive and the products produced on it survive for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation using it. They also have more say in how well that land is managed, since there is no profit motive to save money, if they desire to dedicate more resources to mainting the land it can be done so through legislative actions. Where before it was somebody else&#39;s land not theirs, their stake in what happens is less, but now it is their land, they have a greater desire to see to it that it survives. They also have a better means of direct managment that was not before introduced in a private market.


Of course you could argue that each individual would be forced to not take more than their share, but that would be extremely hard to administer.
Sure, when profit is introduced, it is very hard to get people to be reasonable on what they take for free. Look at what happened to the American Buffalo, free, short term profit, almost extinct.

Hoppe
11th March 2004, 10:25
Too bad, exploited class, you have just given some nice examples of the tragedy. Research from the beginning of the last century already showed that the sustainable output from farmland in private hands was higher than from the collectively owned land. The same was seen when Mexican fisherman claimed property rights over pieces of coastal waters. But when the government choose to withhold these rights the population of fish dropped immediately.

The same thing can be said with rainforest. It matters who owns the rainforest. If you have a herd of sheep, you can slaughter them all and collect money by selling the meat. However, in the real world, the owner of the herd will want to maximize output in the longterm. The same goes for rainforests, since it takes a lot of time before new trees have grown enough. Of course, if no one is the owner of the wood people don&#39;t matter and enormous amounts of rainforrest will continue disappearing in the next decades.


Sure, when profit is introduced, it is very hard to get people to be reasonable on what they take for free. Look at what happened to the American Buffalo, free, short term profit, almost extinct.

I don&#39;t know what the case was with buffalos but in Kenia the government forbid people to shoot eliphants between 1979 to 1989 and the population dropped from 65.000 to 19.000. Zimbabwe however gave the owners of these animals property rights and during the same period the population increased from 30.000 to 43.000. Hmmm, according to you this should be the other way around......

Osman Ghazi
11th March 2004, 13:19
in Kenia the government forbid people to shoot eliphants between 1979 to 1989 and the population dropped from 65.000 to 19.000.

Maybe we should forbid people to shoot capitalists :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nyder
12th March 2004, 16:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 11:59 PM

Of course you would only have to eliminate human being&#39;s tendency towards self-interest.

Capitalism&#39;s application of the principle of "eat or be eaten" causes the need for concentration on self- interest to be employed. Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem.

The idea of &#39;human nature&#39; is unproven and unscientific, and thus has no place in any serious discussion regarding anything but human nature (ie: "What is human nature", "Does human nature exist?", etc.)
I am not trying to prove anything about human nature, but to deny that our tendency towards self-interest is &#39;artificial&#39; or system based is quite ignorant. Besides, if you were to seriously discuss human nature then why would you leave self-interest out of the debate?

Capitalism works quite beautifully with self-interest, though, as when two people trade both parties are better off - otherwise they wouldn&#39;t have entered the trade. Both buyer and seller are motivated by self-interest.

If you think by &#39;removing capitalism&#39; that you will eliminate self-interest, again it is quite an ignorant belief. Rather, by eliminating free trade you will merely shift incentives as to how people pursue their individual goals.

Nyder
12th March 2004, 16:51
Originally posted by Exploited [email protected] 11 2004, 12:46 AM



That is for profit, and that is why they are trying to maximize their sheep&#39;s output. You can&#39;t give something away for free in a profit oriented economy and not expect it to be abused. Since there is an ability for failure within a capitalist system and competition arises from that, the sheep herder is going to abuse priveliges to win that competition.

It depends on what you mean by &#39;profit&#39;, but basically there has to be some kind of reward system. Because it requires effort (a cost) to work the land, some reward must come out of it otherwise people just won&#39;t bother.

For example - see if you would be willing to clean out public toilets or pick up trash from the side of the road for no reward other then an equal subsidy of what you put in. Even if it is for &#39;the good of everyone else&#39; - you won&#39;t be a happy camper.


That is what generally happens in competition, it is an all out win mentality. We&#39;ve seen it from both sides, N. Korea, USSR, USA, Mexico, S. America and Eurupe and Africa. Africa will wipe out jungles for the short term profits of wood sells, the land becomes unusable and the ecological disasters occure afterwards. S. America has done the samething with the rain forests. USA clear cutting forests all over the Pacific Northwest has caused a lot of ecological disasters with removal of topsoil after mud slides, non diverse replanted forests and removal habitat. Strip minning..ect..ect All at the hands of private industry. N. Korea and USSR&#39;s examples are because they were in direct competition with the Western World and cut corners to achieve their desired goals.

Again, a rational corporation who owns a portion of rainforest/mines/etc. will seek to maximise their output (for profit, ie. self-interest). If they don&#39;t maintain but just exploit and use up all of their resources they will become bankrupt.


All she is doing is putting in rules where there was no rules before. You had a competition based scenerio above with no rules on how to govern it and with the possibility of failure to spark motivation (motivation directed at personal gain not community gain). If the person above is just wanting to create enough capital to re-invest in another market, she could be more than willing to deystroy the land by maximizing the number of sheep, past the sustaining level of the land, deystroy the land, sell the sheep, make a profit and seek a new market.

Why would she want to destroy the land if she paid for the rights to own it, and could sell the land in the future at a higher price?


All she is doing is putting in rules where there was no rules before. You had a competition based scenerio above with no rules on how to govern it and with the possibility of failure to spark motivation (motivation directed at personal gain not community gain). If the person above is just wanting to create enough capital to re-invest in another market, she could be more than willing to deystroy the land by maximizing the number of sheep, past the sustaining level of the land, deystroy the land, sell the sheep, make a profit and seek a new market.

If the sheep market is not producing enough profit for her to leave that market comfortably, or the price of sheep products falls rapidly, she has an incentive to do the above.

Again why would she destroy her own land? She would be losing an asset meaning even if she did over-graze it to make a profit she would incur a net loss.


Ahh but when something is owned by all and not the few, then people have a much larger stake in what happens to the land that will be handed down to the next generations.

Not a good incentive. If I work solely for the next generation, and the next generation works solely for the generation after that, etc, etc. We are all just slaves to the next generation.

Besides you are hardly going to pass on a very good life if all you ever do is work without any sort of reward.


If there is no profit motive and no do or die market competition, people have a stake in seeing that land survive and the products produced on it survive for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation using it. They also have more say in how well that land is managed, since there is no profit motive to save money, if they desire to dedicate more resources to mainting the land it can be done so through legislative actions.

And how will they decide how to manage the land? Through a democratic system or a massive bureaucracy? The larger the level of management, the greater the difficulty of making any sort of clear cut decision. And if everything is run by democratic means it&#39;s going to take an awful lot of time and effort.


Where before it was somebody else&#39;s land not theirs, their stake in what happens is less, but now it is their land, they have a greater desire to see to it that it survives. They also have a better means of direct managment that was not before introduced in a private market.

The best form of management is a top-down approach with as few people as possible making the decisions. The greater the level of management, the greater the inefficiency, bureacratic bungles, corruption and game playing.

This is probably why every communist state has always inclined itself towards dictatorship. Because if everything was run by countless management, nothing would ever get done.


Sure, when profit is introduced, it is very hard to get people to be reasonable on what they take for free. Look at what happened to the American Buffalo, free, short term profit, almost extinct.

Another &#39;commons&#39; problem.

Incidentally, &#39;crocodile farming&#39; (done for profit) probably saved them from extinction.

STI
12th March 2004, 19:17
Originally posted by Nyder+Mar 12 2004, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nyder @ Mar 12 2004, 05:15 PM)
[email protected] 10 2004, 11:59 PM

Of course you would only have to eliminate human being&#39;s tendency towards self-interest.

Capitalism&#39;s application of the principle of "eat or be eaten" causes the need for concentration on self- interest to be employed. Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem.

The idea of &#39;human nature&#39; is unproven and unscientific, and thus has no place in any serious discussion regarding anything but human nature (ie: "What is human nature", "Does human nature exist?", etc.)
I am not trying to prove anything about human nature, but to deny that our tendency towards self-interest is &#39;artificial&#39; or system based is quite ignorant. Besides, if you were to seriously discuss human nature then why would you leave self-interest out of the debate?

Capitalism works quite beautifully with self-interest, though, as when two people trade both parties are better off - otherwise they wouldn&#39;t have entered the trade. Both buyer and seller are motivated by self-interest.

If you think by &#39;removing capitalism&#39; that you will eliminate self-interest, again it is quite an ignorant belief. Rather, by eliminating free trade you will merely shift incentives as to how people pursue their individual goals. [/b]
First, I never said that &#39;self interest should be taken out of human nature debates&#39;, I said, &#39;human nature should be taken out of any intellectual debate regarding anything but human nature&#39;. The point of my post was that man&#39;s tendency toward self- interest was artificial. You&#39;re disagreeing with me by agreeing with me. Capitalism doesn&#39;t &#39;work quite beautifully&#39;, but that&#39;s a whole other issue.

The most substance in your post was saying that &#39;it is an igorant belief...&#39;, which is just an unsubstantiated attack. You still havn&#39;t said much regarding what my post actually said.

Nyder
13th March 2004, 18:25
Yes it is an ignorant belief as you stated: Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem. By &#39;getting rid of capitalism&#39; you can&#39;t just automatically exterminate self-interest (which is another term given extreme negative connotations by the left).

But as I said, capitalism works quite well with self-interest (which you cannot deny is existence), and I told you why and yet you cannot come up with any counter-point.

Also, communism is a system based solely on an idea of what human nature is or should be.

Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Therefore since communism is essentially based around the idea of human nature, you can&#39;t just &#39;leave it out of the debate&#39;.

New Tolerance
13th March 2004, 22:39
Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Which kind of capitalism is better?

The one we have now, or the one we had 100 years ago?

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
13th March 2004, 22:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 03:25 PM
Yes it is an ignorant belief as you stated: Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem. By &#39;getting rid of capitalism&#39; you can&#39;t just automatically exterminate self-interest (which is another term given extreme negative connotations by the left).

But as I said, capitalism works quite well with self-interest (which you cannot deny is existence), and I told you why and yet you cannot come up with any counter-point.

Also, communism is a system based solely on an idea of what human nature is or should be.

Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Therefore since communism is essentially based around the idea of human nature, you can&#39;t just &#39;leave it out of the debate&#39;.
A socialist economy can still be self serving, you just cut down on the economic injustice. Cuba has a 1:4 system, I.E. a brain surgeon makes 4x what a busboy makes. The minimum wage there is about &#036;8 per month, so the max obviously is &#036;32 dollars a month. Granted it doesn&#39;t sound like much, but the state takes care of any housing, medical, food, or educational expences you would have.

STI
14th March 2004, 00:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 07:25 PM
Yes it is an ignorant belief as you stated: Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem. By &#39;getting rid of capitalism&#39; you can&#39;t just automatically exterminate self-interest (which is another term given extreme negative connotations by the left).

But as I said, capitalism works quite well with self-interest (which you cannot deny is existence), and I told you why and yet you cannot come up with any counter-point.

Also, communism is a system based solely on an idea of what human nature is or should be.

Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Therefore since communism is essentially based around the idea of human nature, you can&#39;t just &#39;leave it out of the debate&#39;.
*Wipes sweat off brow. Wow, good thing Stalin wasn&#39;t actually a communist, otherwise, you might have actually had a decent argument there. Sorry, though. You can&#39;t win &#39;em all.

I&#39;m not saying some dink off the street should just &#39;pluck capitalism away&#39;. It&#39;s not that easy, and I would have expected you to be smart enough to know that. It takes a lot of effort from the masses to get rid of capitalism and build &#39;commu- socialism&#39;, as you call it. It wouldn&#39;t be automatic, but people wouldn&#39;t automatically be born with a desire to pursue self- interest above everything else (or, rather, it wouldn&#39;t necessarily happen, as human nature does not necessarily exist, especially as you believe it to be).

Capitalism DOESN&#39;T work &#39;quite well&#39;. Ask the millions of Americans who live in poverty. Exchange is based on self- interest, but is not necessarily the natural product of the natural pursuit of self interest.

Communism is not, in fact, based on anything to do with human nature. Show me one document from Marx or Engles saying as much.

Capitalism is as system, actually. It requires the use of force. What happens if somebody violates a contract? Force. What happed when workers would go on strike? Lots of force. The maintanence of capitalism required force (a good deal, actually).

As mentioned before, communism is NOT based on &#39;human nature&#39;. One of the most frequent arguments against communism is based on human nature (an unproven and unscientific idea).

... so NO, it doesn&#39;t have a place in the debate.

Nyder
14th March 2004, 18:40
socialist_tiger,


*Wipes sweat off brow. Wow, good thing Stalin wasn&#39;t actually a communist, otherwise, you might have actually had a decent argument there. Sorry, though. You can&#39;t win &#39;em all.

Well the central tenant of communism is the abolition of private property rights. Stalin did exactly that. So tell me, how is Stalin not a communist?


I&#39;m not saying some dink off the street should just &#39;pluck capitalism away&#39;. It&#39;s not that easy, and I would have expected you to be smart enough to know that. It takes a lot of effort from the masses to get rid of capitalism and build &#39;commu- socialism&#39;, as you call it. It wouldn&#39;t be automatic, but people wouldn&#39;t automatically be born with a desire to pursue self- interest above everything else (or, rather, it wouldn&#39;t necessarily happen, as human nature does not necessarily exist, especially as you believe it to be).

And why on earth would the masses vote away their life, liberty and property to an all powerful central government? Think about all of the people who earn their livelihood from their private businesses and their family and friends. Most people live quite comfortable lives under capitalism. What are you going to do - exterminate them all?

And you can&#39;t say that human nature does not exist - because communism is built upon a view of human nature. And that view is that an individual is not an end in him/herself, but a tool to further the interests of the collective will.

Much like the Borg.


Capitalism DOESN&#39;T work &#39;quite well&#39;. Ask the millions of Americans who live in poverty. Exchange is based on self- interest, but is not necessarily the natural product of the natural pursuit of self interest.

Capitalism DOES work &#39;quite well&#39;. Ask the millions of people who earn a comfortable living.

As for the poor, there are reasons why they are poor and that is for another discussion. Simply pointing the finger at capitalism is not a very constructive argument.

Is exchange a &#39;natural&#39; product of self-interest? Well there are 3 ways to get something - through receiving a gift, trading or by force. Rationally, the best option is by trading, as both parties are better off. Therefore, unless you don&#39;t believe in logic, you can&#39;t say that trade is a bad thing.


Capitalism is as system, actually. It requires the use of force. What happens if somebody violates a contract? Force. What happed when workers would go on strike? Lots of force. The maintanence of capitalism required force (a good deal, actually).

From a libertarian perspective: Force should never be used unless someone else uses force against you.

If someone violates a contract they initiated the force by taking from you without your consent. Therefore it is acceptable to use force against them to make sure they oblige. Also, they entered the contract voluntarily so they know that if they break their part of the agreement, force may be used to recover the damages.

Now this is quite logical and capitalism works very well within this principle.

As for &#39;workers going on strike&#39; - how is force applied there?


As mentioned before, communism is NOT based on &#39;human nature&#39;. One of the most frequent arguments against communism is based on human nature (an unproven and unscientific idea).

Bullshit. Even capitalism is based on the underlying assumption of self-interest.

Communists view of human nature is, as I stated above, the view that the individual is a tool to be used by the collective.

Nyder
14th March 2004, 18:43
Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Mar 13 2004, 11:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Mar 13 2004, 11:56 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 03:25 PM
Yes it is an ignorant belief as you stated: Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem. By &#39;getting rid of capitalism&#39; you can&#39;t just automatically exterminate self-interest (which is another term given extreme negative connotations by the left).

But as I said, capitalism works quite well with self-interest (which you cannot deny is existence), and I told you why and yet you cannot come up with any counter-point.

Also, communism is a system based solely on an idea of what human nature is or should be.

Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Therefore since communism is essentially based around the idea of human nature, you can&#39;t just &#39;leave it out of the debate&#39;.
A socialist economy can still be self serving, you just cut down on the economic injustice. Cuba has a 1:4 system, I.E. a brain surgeon makes 4x what a busboy makes. The minimum wage there is about &#036;8 per month, so the max obviously is &#036;32 dollars a month. Granted it doesn&#39;t sound like much, but the state takes care of any housing, medical, food, or educational expences you would have. [/b]
But don&#39;t you think that it is better that individuals determine wages and not a central authority?

New Tolerance
14th March 2004, 20:07
Well the central tenant of communism is the abolition of private property rights. Stalin did exactly that. So tell me, how is Stalin not a communist?

That&#39;s your interpretation.

Which kind of capitalism is better?

The one we have now, or the one we had 100 years ago?

synthesis
14th March 2004, 21:31
Well the central tenant of communism is the abolition of private property rights.

The central tenet of communism is the passing of the means of production from private hands into the public sector. In other words, communism is nothing more than short-hand for &#39;economic democracy.&#39;

What Lenin and all his successors and ideological followers did was nothing more than to take the means of production out of the hands of one private group and into their own.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
14th March 2004, 23:07
Originally posted by Nyder+Mar 14 2004, 03:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nyder @ Mar 14 2004, 03:43 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 11:56 PM

[email protected] 13 2004, 03:25 PM
Yes it is an ignorant belief as you stated: Get rid of capitalsim, get rid of the problem. By &#39;getting rid of capitalism&#39; you can&#39;t just automatically exterminate self-interest (which is another term given extreme negative connotations by the left).

But as I said, capitalism works quite well with self-interest (which you cannot deny is existence), and I told you why and yet you cannot come up with any counter-point.

Also, communism is a system based solely on an idea of what human nature is or should be.

Capitalism isn&#39;t really a system at all as it requires no use of force and actually happens quite naturally (people trading with eachother for the benefit of both). Communism requires extreme control, oppression and coercion in order to be achieved. For example Stalin had to execute millions of people for being too &#39;individual&#39;.

Therefore since communism is essentially based around the idea of human nature, you can&#39;t just &#39;leave it out of the debate&#39;.
A socialist economy can still be self serving, you just cut down on the economic injustice. Cuba has a 1:4 system, I.E. a brain surgeon makes 4x what a busboy makes. The minimum wage there is about &#036;8 per month, so the max obviously is &#036;32 dollars a month. Granted it doesn&#39;t sound like much, but the state takes care of any housing, medical, food, or educational expences you would have.
But don&#39;t you think that it is better that individuals determine wages and not a central authority? [/b]
No, a central authority can keep wages fair. You can&#39;t just let rich individuals exploit and have power over the quality of the lives of the working class. Besides, with the government controlling wages, it is easier to keep people doing what is best for the state by giving higher pay to jobs that are more urgently needed by society. With a 1:4 system, an incentive to do a job is still there, and it greatly reduces economic inequality.

STI
15th March 2004, 00:40
Well the central tenant of communism is the abolition of private property rights. Stalin did exactly that. So tell me, how is Stalin not a communist?

Noam Chomsky explained why the Soviet Union was not socialist in "What Uncle Sam Really Wants" as follows:


Socialism, real and fake
One can debate the meaning of the term "socialism," but if it means anything, it means control of production by the workers themselves, not owners and managers who rule them and control all decisions, whether in capitalist enterprises or an absolutist state.

To refer to the Soviet Union as socialist is an interesting case of doctrinal doublespeak. The Bolshevik coup of October 1917 placed state power in the hands of Lenin and Trotsky, who moved quickly to dismantle the incipient socialist institutions that had grown up during the popular revolution of the preceding months -- the factory councils, the Soviets, in fact any organ of popular control -- and to convert the workforce into what they called a "labor army" under the command of the leader. In any meaningful sense of the term "socialism," the Bolsheviks moved at once to destroy its existing elements. No socialist deviation has been permitted since.

These developments came as no surprise to leading Marxist intellectuals, who had criticized Lenin&#39;s doctrines for years (as had Trotsky) because they would centralize authority in the hands of the vanguard Party and its leaders. In fact, decades earlier, the anarchist thinker Bakunin had predicted that the emerging intellectual class would follow one of two paths: either they would try to exploit popular struggles to take state power themselves, becoming a brutal and oppressive Red bureaucracy; or they would become the managers and ideologists of the state capitalist societies, if popular revolution failed. It was a perceptive insight, on both counts.

The world&#39;s two major propaganda systems did not agree on much, but they did agree on using the term socialism to refer to the immediate destruction of every element of socialism by the Bolsheviks. That&#39;s not too surprising. The Bolsheviks called their system socialist so as to exploit the moral prestige of socialism.

The West adopted the same usage for the opposite reason: to defame the feared libertarian ideals by associating them with the Bolshevik dungeon, to undermine the popular belief that there really might be progress towards a more just society with democratic control over its basic institutions and concern for human needs and rights.

If socialism is the tyranny of Lenin and Stalin, then sane people will say: not for me. And if that&#39;s the only alternative to corporate state capitalism, then many will submit to its authoritarian structures as the only reasonable choice.

With the collapse of the Soviet system, there&#39;s an opportunity to revive the lively and vigorous libertarian socialist thought that was not able to withstand the doctrinal and repressive assaults of the major systems of power. How large a hope that is, we cannot know. But at least one roadblock has been removed. In that sense, the disappearance of the Soviet Union is a small victory for socialism, much as the defeat of the fascist powers was.



There you have it, the Soviet Union was not socialist, and neither was Stalin.


And why on earth would the masses vote away their life, liberty and property to an all powerful central government? Think about all of the people who earn their livelihood from their private businesses and their family and friends. Most people live quite comfortable lives under capitalism. What are you going to do - exterminate them all?

And you can&#39;t say that human nature does not exist - because communism is built upon a view of human nature. And that view is that an individual is not an end in him/herself, but a tool to further the interests of the collective will.

Much like the Borg.


The masses would get sick and tired of being exploited day in and day out. They wouldn&#39;t throw away their life and liberty in a real communist society, only a Marxist- Leninist one (which, as described above, is NOT communist). There would be no all- powerful central government. People live comfortable lives now because of union mobilization over the last century or so (which was led by anti- capitalists and was inherently anti- capitalist). Those people would be a part of the revolution, they wouldn&#39;t be exterminated. You know that, you&#39;re just trying to make me state the obvious. Where, in any writing by Marx or Engles, has it been said that the individual is merely a tool to further the interests of the collective will? In fact, one of the major criticisms of capitalism by Marx was that it kept a person&#39;s destiny out of his own hands.

So there.


Capitalism DOES work &#39;quite well&#39;. Ask the millions of people who earn a comfortable living.

As for the poor, there are reasons why they are poor and that is for another discussion. Simply pointing the finger at capitalism is not a very constructive argument.

Is exchange a &#39;natural&#39; product of self-interest? Well there are 3 ways to get something - through receiving a gift, trading or by force. Rationally, the best option is by trading, as both parties are better off. Therefore, unless you don&#39;t believe in logic, you can&#39;t say that trade is a bad thing

Red herring. You havn&#39;t addressed my statement regarding the millions in poverty, just brought up a new one. I&#39;ve already explained why &#39;comfortable livings&#39; exist in capitalism, so i won&#39;t waste my breath again. The poor wouldn&#39;t be poor in communism, so, yes, the finger can be pointed at capitalism. You&#39;ve just re- explained that trade is based on self- interest, not why trading is the natural product of self- interest.


From a libertarian perspective: Force should never be used unless someone else uses force against you.

If someone violates a contract they initiated the force by taking from you without your consent. Therefore it is acceptable to use force against them to make sure they oblige. Also, they entered the contract voluntarily so they know that if they break their part of the agreement, force may be used to recover the damages.

Now this is quite logical and capitalism works very well within this principle.

As for &#39;workers going on strike&#39; - how is force applied there?


Without the contract, exchange cannot exist. Without trade, capitalism cannot exist. Without force, the contract cannot be enforced. Therefore, force is necessary for capitalism to be enforced.

Ask all those &#39;dirty blue- collar slobs&#39; who have been injured and killed by strike- busting police how force is applied when workers go on strike.


Bullshit. Even capitalism is based on the underlying assumption of self-interest.

Communists view of human nature is, as I stated above, the view that the individual is a tool to be used by the collective.

You havn&#39;t shown me any writings by Marx or Engles asserting that the individual is a tool of the collective. Your statement carries no weight.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
15th March 2004, 02:23
Care to explain the difference between socialism and state capitalism?

STI
15th March 2004, 03:34
Well, socialism involves worker self- management. State capitalism involves the state being the &#39;boss&#39; of the worker (i&#39;ve been butcheringly brief as i don&#39;t have much time to explain right now).

Nyder
23rd March 2004, 10:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:34 AM
Well, socialism involves worker self- management. State capitalism involves the state being the &#39;boss&#39; of the worker (i&#39;ve been butcheringly brief as i don&#39;t have much time to explain right now).
&#39;State capitalism&#39; is a contradiction in terms because capitalism means private ownership over the means of production, not ownership by means of a collective, or a dictator with a monopoly on force. Capitalism also means free trade under mutually agreed terms. Again this goes against what the state is.

Why are communists so stupid that they can&#39;t tell the difference between Governments and free enterprise? :rolleyes:

As for worker self management:

If businesses worked better being run and owned by everyone working for it don&#39;t you think this practice would be widely adopted? No it hasn&#39;t, because there would be huge management problems.

Guest1
23rd March 2004, 10:38
It&#39;s a radical idea that has only really been tried by besieged unions. Everytime that&#39;s happened, there&#39;s been a dramatic increase in productivity, a dramatic decrease in wage inequality, and of course, an immediate response to halt it.

The latest example is in Canada, where Alcan is now moving to starve the factory that workers took over when it declared it was going to shut it down. How? It&#39;s been going around to the providers of raw materials (iron ore, etc..) to stop the flow to the factory.

On a different note all together, if Democracy is desirable in running something as huge as a nation, what makes you think it would cause "management problems" in something as small as a factory?

Nyder
4th April 2004, 05:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 10:31 PM

Well the central tenant of communism is the abolition of private property rights.

The central tenet of communism is the passing of the means of production from private hands into the public sector. In other words, communism is nothing more than short-hand for &#39;economic democracy.&#39;

What Lenin and all his successors and ideological followers did was nothing more than to take the means of production out of the hands of one private group and into their own.
In other words, it is robbery.