What is our position on the ANITFA movement?

[TucsonTrotskyite]

Antifa is a gathering of fellow communists, socialists, and anarchists. What is your view on this movement? I think that they are putting the Idea of a proletariat revolution to actual application rather than the current "neo-liberal" (Ew... gotta get that taste outta my mouth) idea of no intervention whatsoever. In my opinion, they are our tool as the far-left to fight these neo-fascist white supremacists. So yeah, I want to know what my fellow lefties think. Oh, and if you are a fascist just browsing... fuck off m8. -Miguel

[Ele'ill]

I think in the US right now, antifa is a reason why fascist organizing is in disarray and a lot of people saw those direct actions happening and they understood it, fwiw. Same with the acab/ftp sentiment, I think people got that, there was a lot more of that.

[willowtooth]

Like the dude in vegas just demonstrated, Americans own guns. There's no need for stickfighting.

[Ele'ill]

Like the dude in vegas just demonstrated, Americans own guns. There's no need for stickfighting.

What do you mean?

[willowtooth]

What do you mean?
I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared

[Ele'ill]

I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared

I appreciate your pessimism but it doesn't matter if you agree with it because even if all of that was true it was still antifa shutting down major fascist organizing events, without leaders, together, oftem times with the non-anarchist left, with all their councils, leaders, and pr, nowhere to be found.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I think antifascist action is a necessity for the revolutionary left. When it's not the state actively attempting to crush us or reformists driving a wedge between workers, it's the far right that are the most actively disruptive to our organising. Antifa as a movement is involved in more than throwing rocks at protests, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff like tracking far-right organisations, their members, making venues that are hosting events organised by the far-right aware of the content when often the far-right tries to hide what will be happening, tracking online far-right discussions etc. I don't think these aspects of antifa are discussed enough.

The black bloc as a tactic is something I have mixed thoughts about. I appreciate the need to mask up at protests but I feel that the 'black bloc' has a certain anonymous machismo to it that is somewhat unhealthy. One of my favourite examples of direct action comes from the Italian student autonomists pictured below and I'd like to see more creative stuff like that instead of relying on black bloc tactics at virtually every counter-demo.

https://www.revleft.space/vb/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.space%2Fvb %2Fcache.php%3Fimg%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fartsagain stcuts.files.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F12%252Fq_s contri_roma_24112010_21.png

https://www.revleft.space/vb/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.space%2Fvb %2Fcache.php%3Fimg%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Ftheoccupi edtimes.org%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F08%252FBook_Bloc_ Slider.jpg

[The Intransigent Faction]

I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared

Antifa deserves absolute support from the left in the context of facing down fascists, and has been credited with saving lives in the process. It deserves credit for taking tactics far beyond the publishing of obscure party newspapers.

The biggest problem it will face, though, is that it's reactive by definition. As long as its goals are limited to responding with counter-demonstrations every time fascists try to organize a march, the absence of a "positive programme" actually pushing for something will limit what can be done.

I won't pretend to know the details of the on-the-ground situation, or to what extent Antifa includes a spectrum of groups within itself, but despite its more radical tactics, what's to stop Antifa from having the same shortcomings as anti-Trump protests---a simple rejection that falls short of putting forward anything proactive? I sincerely hope there is more to it.

[TucsonTrotskyite]

I thank all of you for your wonderful opinions on Antifa. I think that Antifa are doing good work in resisting the fascist ideas that are running rampant in the US. However, the one criticism is not that they are too hard on fascists; rather they are too soft! What happened when Hitler and Mussolini took power? There were no far-lefties to protest because the brown/black shirts would start using political intimidation on the working people. We need to smash these "peaceful demonstrations" before they take root and the government thinks that they are just another group that deserve rights. If they start becoming, in the public eye at least, "just another group in the political spectrum" then people will get so indifferent to the idea of fascism that it will soon start popping up in our centers for education, work, and life. We as good humans should do, nip the bud of fascism at the root before it can flower. And let me be clear... the only, ONLY way to do that is the systematic destruction of their leadership, ideas, literature, and their gatherings. As the saying goes: NO TRUMP, NO KKK, NO FASCIST USA! ​ONWARD COMRADES! UNTO FINAL VICTORY FOR THE PROLETARIAT!

[willowtooth]

it was still antifa shutting down major fascist organizing events
Thanks? I guess... I dont really know what to say. I hope you had fun? I didn't realize that was something we were supposed to be doing. What got you started in the shutting down of the fascist organizing events? Were you just bored one day and thought "let's go find some nazis and yell at them"?

What are antifas demands? What can the state agree to do that will get the protests, however peaceful they may be, to stop? If Trump is what started all of this then surely your goal must be to get Hillary Clinton in office right? No? Okay then who?

Also who gets to be in Antifa? If there is no member ship committee, than anyone can call themselves antifas right? Well what happens when some one else steals the name?

https://www.revleft.space/vb/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Ffellowshipofminds.file s.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F04%2Fbeverly-hills-antifa-tweet.png

Forget what happens when well meaning people disagree on what it means to be antifa. Trump is not exactly openly declaring his love for mussolini's fascism. If you ask him if he's pro or anti-fascism, guess what his answer will be? So who or what is being protested?

Is it Capitalism? Then why not call yourself anti-capitalists or ancaps? is it because anarcho-capitalists stole the name ancaps? Is the name trademarked? is the name "antifa" less about ideology and more about a catchy sounding name that'll hit the twittersphere and spread like wildfire?

Anyways there are leaders and there are councils they are just secret to you me

[Ele'ill]

Thanks? I guess... I dont really know what to say. I hope you had fun? I didn't realize that was something we were supposed to be doing. What got you started in the shutting down of the fascist organizing events? Were you just bored one day and thought "let's go find some nazis and yell at them"?

i don't understand what this means


What are antifas demands? What can the state agree to do that will get the protests, however peaceful they may be, to stop? If Trump is what started all of this then surely your goal must be to get Hillary Clinton in office right? No? Okay then who?

you don't have to demand anything when direct action can achieve a desired outcome, the rest of your post sounds a bit off the rails


Also who gets to be in Antifa? If there is no member ship committee, than anyone can call themselves antifas right? Well what happens when some one else steals the name?

it happens on social media but i think it depends on the actions, i think that makes it obvious what is or isn't antifa



Forget what happens when well meaning people disagree on what it means to be antifa. Trump is not exactly openly declaring his love for mussolini's fascism. If you ask him if he's pro or anti-fascism, guess what his answer will be? So who or what is being protested?

Is it Capitalism? Then why not call yourself anti-capitalists or ancaps? is it because anarcho-capitalists stole the name ancaps? Is the name trademarked? is the name "antifa" less about ideology and more about a catchy sounding name that'll hit the twittersphere and spread like wildfire?

Anyways there are leaders and there are councils they are just secret to you me

there aren't leaders or councils

[BIXX]

Thanks? I guess... I dont really know what to say. I hope you had fun? I didn't realize that was something we were supposed to be doing. What got you started in the shutting down of the fascist organizing events? Were you just bored one day and thought "let's go find some nazis and yell at them"?

What are antifas demands? What can the state agree to do that will get the protests, however peaceful they may be, to stop? If Trump is what started all of this then surely your goal must be to get Hillary Clinton in office right? No? Okay then who?

Also who gets to be in Antifa? If there is no member ship committee, than anyone can call themselves antifas right? Well what happens when some one else steals the name?

https://www.revleft.space/vb/cache.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Ffellowshipofminds.file s.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F04%2Fbeverly-hills-antifa-tweet.png

Forget what happens when well meaning people disagree on what it means to be antifa. Trump is not exactly openly declaring his love for mussolini's fascism. If you ask him if he's pro or anti-fascism, guess what his answer will be? So who or what is being protested?

Is it Capitalism? Then why not call yourself anti-capitalists or ancaps? is it because anarcho-capitalists stole the name ancaps? Is the name trademarked? is the name "antifa" less about ideology and more about a catchy sounding name that'll hit the twittersphere and spread like wildfire?

Anyways there are leaders and there are councils they are just secret to you me

So, okay, let's pretend any of your questions are a legitimate criticism of antifa, what exactly are you proposing in terms of organization structure, action, etc...?

[willowtooth]

So, okay, let's pretend any of your questions are a legitimate criticism of antifa, what exactly are you proposing in terms of organization structure, action, etc...?
Well that's the million dollar question isn't it?

[Comrade Kamen]

I think it's reasonable to support Antifa in most things, however, because of how disorganized they are, a lot of unnecessary violence has come out from it.

[Ele'ill]

I think it's reasonable to support Antifa in most things, however, because of how disorganized they are, a lot of unnecessary violence has come out from it.

in what ways do you find antifa disorganized

[BIXX]

Well that's the million dollar question isn't it?

My point is made pretty clear here: you don't actually know anything about Antifa, you tried to pose a bunch of irrelevant questions as if they were criticisms, then are unable to answer any questions surrounding alternatives.

[willowtooth]

My point is made pretty clear here: you don't actually know anything about Antifa, you tried to pose a bunch of irrelevant questions as if they were criticisms, then are unable to answer any questions surrounding alternatives.How are any of those questions irrelevant? Why so defensive?

[willowtooth]

i don't understand what this means
Since when has shutting down fascist meetings been a goal of anyone's on the left? I dont know where this idea comes from, so I have to assume its copycatting from europe. Theyre not bombing meeting places or killing members or even robbing them. They're just yelling at them. Who told you to do that? and why?

direct action can achieve a desired outcome

whats the desired outcome? would you clue us in?


it happens on social media but i think it depends on the actions, i think that makes it obvious what is or isn't antifawhat measures have been taken to ensure law enforcement have not infiltrated antifa? How many of these twitter handles are out of Langley?





there aren't leaders or councilsofficially yes, but obviously there are activists doing the majority of the work. Organizing meetings and protests, recruiting new members, setting directives, making plans and collecting funds. We just don't get to know who they are because its "all of us" its "the people". which is bullshit. Its just a way to avoid criticism. If we identify a leader then they'll be criticized (ad hom or not), they will hold views that can be pinned down and criticized from both the right and the left. instead of an undefined mass we become socialists anarchists communists and liberals all against eachother again.

how many antifa members would be lost if they said we should make the abolishment of capitalism a goal of antifa? 1% 50% 90%? some just want Clinton in office others just want a president Pence instead of Trump.

it's impossible to criticize (or really support them) because they don't actually exist. they are just a loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals. The media likes to hype them up as somekind of left wing terrorist cell that will kill us all, as they did with OWS, BLM, La raza, the black panthers, the list goes on, hell even greenpeace used to be considered terrorist group. But atleast the black panthers and greenpeace had leadership, organization, hierarchy, and accountability.

The right wing has no problem with hierarchy they love it. Yet somehow i am expected to believe that the guy who works everyday organizing protests and making homemade antifa flags, is no more a leader than any guy who wanders in off the street. I'm sorry but that's bullshit, antifa is not an illegal organization they wont raid your house if they find out you're a member and if they did outlaw antifa and imprison their members nobody would save you, nobody would break into prison to rescue you, nobody will kidnap the mayor, nothing will happen. But if they did, the first goal would be to make antifa a legal organization again so they can have official political leadership not maintain anonymity like somekind of terrorist cell that never breaks any laws

[some-loser]

Since when has shutting down fascist meetings been a goal of anyone's on the left? I dont know where this idea comes from, so I have to assume its copycatting from europe. Theyre not bombing meeting places or killing members or even robbing them. They're just yelling at them. Who told you to do that? and why?
whats the desired outcome? would you clue us in?

Uhhh, it's been a tactic on the left for about as long as there have been fascists around. Also, they're not "just yelling at them." I'm new (old) here, but I'm curious if you always present statements as if they're fact, or just sometimes, or just here?

The desired outcome is to shut down fascist organizing before it can pose an even greater threat to our communities.

"Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed, with the most extreme brutality, the nucleus of our new movement.” - Hitler


what measures have been taken to ensure law enforcement have not infiltrated antifa? How many of these twitter handles are out of Langley?

I'm sure some law enforcement has infiltrated antifa at times, just as it has the black bloc, but the anonymity and decentralized organizing principles used in these tactics (which, ultimately, help keep people safe) are needed. Do you have some sort of suggestion as to how it could be improved? Infiltration by pigs isn't really something exclusive to antifa either, it happens to anarchists (black bloc), proto-Maoists (BPP) and Leninists (Bolsheviks).



officially yes, but obviously there are activists doing the majority of the work. Organizing meetings and protests, recruiting new members, setting directives, making plans and collecting funds. We just don't get to know who they are because its "all of us" its "the people". which is bullshit. Its just a way to avoid criticism. If we identify a leader then they'll be criticized (ad hom or not), they will hold views that can be pinned down and criticized from both the right and the left. instead of an undefined mass we become socialists anarchists communists and liberals all against eachother again.

how many antifa members would be lost if they said we should make the abolishment of capitalism a goal of antifa? 1% 50% 90%? some just want Clinton in office others just want a president Pence instead of Trump.

it's impossible to criticize (or really support them) because they don't actually exist. they are just a loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals. The media likes to hype them up as somekind of left wing terrorist cell that will kill us all, as they did with OWS, BLM, La raza, the black panthers, the list goes on, hell even greenpeace used to be considered terrorist group. But atleast the black panthers and greenpeace had leadership, organization, hierarchy, and accountability.

The right wing has no problem with hierarchy they love it. Yet somehow i am expected to believe that the guy who works everyday organizing protests and making homemade antifa flags, is no more a leader than any guy who wanders in off the street. I'm sorry but that's bullshit, antifa is not an illegal organization they wont raid your house if they find out you're a member and if they did outlaw antifa and imprison their members nobody would save you, nobody would break into prison to rescue you, nobody will kidnap the mayor, nothing will happen. But if they did, the first goal would be to make antifa a legal organization again so they can have official political leadership not maintain anonymity like somekind of terrorist cell that never breaks any laws


Dude there are no "members." It's not a difficult concept to grasp. There are no dues, membership cards, or meetings. You can't join antifa, you can only become it. It's like, if I was to organize a protest tomorrow in my home town, against cuts to health services, and I put out a call to have people come protest with me around this topic, and 50 people decided to come out, they wouldn't be members of some fictitious organization I'm leading, they'd just be 50 people interested in organizing around a specific issue.

The fact that you're speaking about "antifa" members is absurd and shows you don't have much of a conception of anti-fascism tactics. Mao was a shit head, but he also had a decent point when he said 'no investigation, no right to speak.' Antifa doesn't have "official political leadership" because that would be counter-productive to the tactic. Of course it's a "loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals." Ya, so, and, what? There was an antifa counter-demo not long ago where I'm from, and about 200 people came out to shut down some fascists, they ranged from liberals, to kids masked up, to Maoists, etc...and on that day everyone present, actively engaged in actions against fascists, were antifa. The only common goal is to halt fascist organizing, not establish some sort of political leadership. And guess what, when the action/counter-demo is finished, many of us go back to the anti-capitalist organizing we do in our day to day lives.

I mean, I think there are legitimate criticisms to be made on the "antifa moment" that's happening in the US anarchist scene right now, but this isn't it, or interesting, or particularly knowledgeable. Anyone who says it's "impossible" to support or criticize antifa, is skeptical as fuck in my books. There are fascists, and there are anti-fascists, there's no middle ground here, pick a side. I mean, your only half decent point has been highlight the fact that you're supposed to expect that there are no "leaders." Of course there are leaders in the sense of people who are charismatic and particularly active, but there is no formal leadership and it isn't wanted. The day I have to follow a leader is the day I fuck off.

[Ele'ill]

Since when has shutting down fascist meetings been a goal of anyone's on the left? I dont know where this idea comes from, so I have to assume its copycatting from europe. Theyre not bombing meeting places or killing members or even robbing them. They're just yelling at them. Who told you to do that? and why?
whats the desired outcome? would you clue us in?

It has less to do with shutting down fascist meetings specifically as it does, overall, have to do with stopping or disrupting their organizing which is what happened, certainly with more than just yelling. If the root of your question is 'why do we oppose fascism?', I think you should start in the anti-fascist resource area of the forum.


what measures have been taken to ensure law enforcement have not infiltrated antifa? How many of these twitter handles are out of Langley?

officially yes, but obviously there are activists doing the majority of the work. Organizing meetings and protests, recruiting new members, setting directives, making plans and collecting funds.

You stated that you don't like anarchist organizing or w/e but here it seems you are very unfamiliar with how that organizing took place.



We just don't get to know who they are because its "all of us" its "the people". which is bullshit. Its just a way to avoid criticism. If we identify a leader then they'll be criticized (ad hom or not), they will hold views that can be pinned down and criticized from both the right and the left. instead of an undefined mass we become socialists anarchists communists and liberals all against eachother again.

It's a way to avoid leaders/hierarchy.





how many antifa members would be lost if they said we should make the abolishment of capitalism a goal of antifa? 1% 50% 90%? some just want Clinton in office others just want a president Pence instead of Trump. it's impossible to criticize (or really support them) because they don't actually exist. they are just a loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals. The media likes to hype them up as somekind of left wing terrorist cell that will kill us all, as they did with OWS, BLM, La raza, the black panthers, the list goes on, hell even greenpeace used to be considered terrorist group. But atleast the black panthers and greenpeace had leadership, organization, hierarchy, and accountability.

so you're saying the people with masks clashing with police and shutting down fascist organizing events also like the dems? I think the number of people who weren't previously involved in anarchist or communist activity who adopted tactics or tone, to deal with the police and the fascists, understood that there was no other option other than taking action. Despite the media backlash against antifa the images on the news played the same story, people becoming acquainted with pushing through police lines and fighting in the street, in order to disrupt order required to govern. That's both anti-inauguration/president actions and fascist organizing.



The right wing has no problem with hierarchy they love it. Yet somehow i am expected to believe that the guy who works everyday organizing protests and making homemade antifa flags, is no more a leader than any guy who wanders in off the street. I'm sorry but that's bullshit, antifa is not an illegal organization they wont raid your house if they find out you're a member and if they did outlaw antifa and imprison their members nobody would save you, nobody would break into prison to rescue you, nobody will kidnap the mayor, nothing will happen. But if they did, the first goal would be to make antifa a legal organization again so they can have official political leadership not maintain anonymity like somekind of terrorist cell that never breaks any laws

Your posts are confusing, i have no idea what you mean here. What are your thoughts on the j20 repression in regards to what you're saying here? What about the other riots that took place, and the state repression that followed?

[willowtooth]

Uhhh, it's been a tactic on the left for about as long as there have been fascists around. Also, they're not "just yelling at them." I'm new (old) here, but I'm curious if you always present statements as if they're fact, or just sometimes, or just here?

The desired outcome is to shut down fascist organizing before it can pose an even greater threat to our communities.

"Only one thing could have broken our movement – if the adversary had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed, with the most extreme brutality, the nucleus of our new movement.” - Hitler
Ive seen no smashing, I've only seen as the fuhrer would put it "the tyrannizing of their young people by bourgeois means"



I'm sure some law enforcement has infiltrated antifa at times, just as it has the black bloc, but the anonymity and decentralized organizing principles used in these tactics (which, ultimately, help keep people safe) are needed. Do you have some sort of suggestion as to how it could be improved? Infiltration by pigs isn't really something exclusive to antifa either, it happens to anarchists (black bloc), proto-Maoists (BPP) and Leninists (Bolsheviks). My point here is that nothing has been done. A start would be appointing a guy and say "thats the leader", and then he picks a bunch of people and says "these are my friends", then if I show up and say a bunch of crazy shit. The leader can pop his head up and go "hey that guys crazy dont listen to him he doesn't represent us". Then you can say "Hey john smith you protomoaist bolshevik liberal bastard i dont like you or your new group im going to go away now." Except now you can't call anyone a bastard, except maybe me for pointing that you can't call anyone a bastard





Dude there are no "members." It's not a difficult concept to grasp. There are no dues, membership cards, or meetings.there should be
You can't join antifa, you can only become it. how poetic


It's like, if I was to organize a protest tomorrow in my home town, against cuts to health services, and I put out a call to have people come protest with me around this topic, and 50 people decided to come out, they wouldn't be members of some fictitious organization I'm leading, they'd just be 50 people interested in organizing around a specific issue. and you would normally have a list of demands most likely about cuts to health services maybe 1 or 2 extra demands to just give yourself room to negotiate.


The fact that you're speaking about "antifa" members is absurd and shows you don't have much of a conception of anti-fascism tactics. Mao was a shit head, but he also had a decent point when he said 'no investigation, no right to speak.' Antifa doesn't have "official political leadership" because that would be counter-productive to the tactic. Of course it's a "loose collection of activists with 100's of conflicting goals." Ya, so, and, what? There was an antifa counter-demo not long ago where I'm from, and about 200 people came out to shut down some fascists, they ranged from liberals, to kids masked up, to Maoists, etc...and on that day everyone present, actively engaged in actions against fascists, were antifa. The only common goal is to halt fascist organizing, not establish some sort of political leadership. And guess what, when the action/counter-demo is finished, many of us go back to the anti-capitalist organizing we do in our day to day lives. why shut them down? why halt them? I appreciate the story but what is the long term overall goal? Is it to outlaw these fascists political parties and groups? Are we going to send them to Guantanamo bay with al -queda?


I mean, I think there are legitimate criticisms to be made on the "antifa moment" that's happening in the US anarchist scene right now, but this isn't it, or interesting, or particularly knowledgeable. Anyone who says it's "impossible" to support or criticize antifa, is skeptical as fuck in my books. There are fascists, and there are anti-fascists, there's no middle ground here, pick a side. I mean, your only half decent point has been highlight the fact that you're supposed to expect that there are no "leaders." Of course there are leaders in the sense of people who are charismatic and particularly active, but there is no formal leadership and it isn't wanted. The day I have to follow a leader is the day I fuck off.you'd make horrible military candidate that's for sure lol wlecome back btw:)


It has less to do with shutting down fascist meetings specifically as it does, overall, have to do with stopping or disrupting their organizingYes, I have been made aware of this, what I'm asking is why




so you're saying the people with masks clashing with police and shutting down fascist organizing events also like the dems? are we including bernie sanders if so then hell yes i do


I think the number of people who weren't previously involved in anarchist or communist activity who adopted tactics or tone, to deal with the police and the fascists, understood that there was no other option other than taking action. Despite the media backlash against antifa the images on the news played the same story, people becoming acquainted with pushing through police lines and fighting in the street, in order to disrupt order required to govern. That's both anti-inauguration/president actions and fascist organizing.its certainly not something i would criticize or support





Your posts are confusing, i have no idea what you mean here. What are your thoughts on the j20 repression in regards to what you're saying here? What about the other riots that took place, and the state repression that followed?All pointless... unless you had fun and met some new people and went looting and got a new television set, nothing was accomplished.

[Ele'ill]

Ive seen no smashing, I've only seen as the fuhrer would put it "the tyrannizing of their young people by bourgeois means"

you haven't seen the smashing of their organizing events?




Yes, I have been made aware of this, what I'm asking is why

Are you asking why fascists shouldn't be given a platform?




are we including bernie sanders if so then hell yes i do
its certainly not something i would criticize or support

So you think 2k people both times with banners that read become ungovernable and this is war, like the dems? (and that's just berkeley)



All pointless... unless you had fun and met some new people and went looting and got a new television set, nothing was accomplished.

I wasn't present, but you think that a major disruption of empire's pageantry as direct action, and the disruption of fascist organizing, is pointless?

[willowtooth]

you haven't seen the smashing of their organizing events? Not really


So you think 2k people both times with banners that read become ungovernable and this is war, like the dems? (and that's just berkeley) I saw those too and you're not going to like this... but the people holding those banners were supporters of Bob Avakian



I wasn't present, but you think that a major disruption of empire's pageantry as direct action, and the disruption of fascist organizing, is pointless?No, because if Clinton was elected the J20 protests wouldn't have happened we both know that. Most of them wouldve been in the inauguration crowd cheering for the first woman president less than 100 years after they were allowed the right to vote... in the pageant

[Ele'ill]

Not really

So when the fash and those hosting their events post about being shut down, along with the news and first hand accounts, videos, photos, interviews, etc.. you think that's all a conspiracy? Are you trying your hand at creating a conspiracy theory? I'd like to think that you're not being serious here but the video and images from berkeley both times, just as a common example, make it fairly clear how/why events were shut down.




I saw those too and you're not going to like this... but the people holding those banners were supporters of Bob Avakian

Which banner are you talking about because there's some people I'd like to share this with who would find what you're saying pretty funny.



No, because if Clinton was elected the J20 protests wouldn't have happened we both know that. Most of them wouldve been in the inauguration crowd cheering for the first woman president less than 100 years after they were allowed the right to vote... in the pageant

I think protests would have happened but that's a different situation. What exactly is your point though.

[ckaihatsu]

So when the fash and those hosting their events post about being shut down, along with the news and first hand accounts, videos, photos, interviews, etc.. you think that's all a conspiracy?




Are you trying your hand at creating a conspiracy theory? I'd like to think that you're not being serious here but the video and images from berkeley both times, just as a common example, make it fairly clear how/why events were shut down.


This hypothetical 'conspiracy' conclusion depends greatly on how the initial issue is *framed* -- in general we don't *have* to resort to a 'conspiracy' formulation, because it's the entirety of the bourgeois class-rule *social paradigm* that's the fundamental cause of society's tolerating fascists in public view, as at these 'alt-right' protests like at Charlottesville.

But if the framework used is something more *bourgeois-based*, internally, like 'law' and 'civil society', then the inherent *threat* of fascist violence, through mere fascist organizing and protests (Charlottesville), *should* reasonably be seen -- even by the bourgeoisie -- as a real danger to the normal functioning of civil society, due to apartheid-type discrimination and potential violence on that same fascist social basis, as we have voluminous historical evidence for.

In *this* sense, it *could* be called a 'conspiracy' since the bourgeois social order (law, civil society) is being specially *warped* and *stretched* to accommodate fascist-type violent, injurious actions -- an official *tolerance* of such everyday-irregular far-right violence.

[Ele'ill]

The conspiracy being talked about though is willowtooth claiming fascist organizing events have not been shut down despite the reality that they have.

[Recuperation]

I think my biggest criticism of 'antifa' is an apparent lack of historical perspective. As far as raw fighting power and organization goes, the anti-fascists in Germany and Italy were light years ahead of anything North America can expect to materialize any time soon. It still wasn't enough to stop or even impede fascism.

On the other hand there is something very atomized and somehow out of step about this conflict. As someone mentioned earlier, we Americans have access to an enormous amount of firepower but our two opponents much prefer the sporadic clashes of dozens of individuals hitting each other with wooden sticks along with the occasional pepper spray attack. All the while the cameras at these events seem sometimes to outnumber the participants themselves

Are these really two distinct groups of mortal enemies? Or is a kind of joke being played?

[willowtooth]

The conspiracy being talked about though is willowtooth claiming fascist organizing events have not been shut down despite the reality that they have.
I'm not claiming they haven't yelled at them, stomped their feet and made them go away. But they haven't shut anything down. The only reason they go to places like Berkeley is in hopes that a protest group will show up. They themselves helped re-invent antifa as the boogeyman, even though they've existed already in the USA for decades. They'll do the same to the next group. I hear BAMN is next...

[Ele'ill]

I'm not claiming they haven't yelled at them, stomped their feet and made them go away. But they haven't shut anything down.

Well objectively more was done than yelling and the stomping of feet. That can be seen from the hundreds/thousands of pieces of media available showing a much different story. I'd also say that 'making them go away' is essentially a way of conceding the point and saying, 'the fash's organizing events got shut down with direct actions and people chased them on foot out of the city literally' (literally). I'm not going to entertain your refusal to acknowledge what clearly exists, you can do a keyword search and find a landslide of resources to help you on your journey to better understand what has happened.



The only reason they go to places like Berkeley is in hopes that a protest group will show up. They themselves helped re-invent antifa as the boogeyman, even though they've existed already in the USA for decades. They'll do the same to the next group. I hear BAMN is next...

Fascists already exist in these places, and they're attempting to organize, which is being shut down. What 're-invented' antifa as a boogeyman is the success at times and possibility for success of organizing and direct actions, from the perspective of the state. Which is likely concerned with the visibility of state/fascist collusion or the semblance of it, knows its unavoidable, and sees 'antifa' generally as an organizing platform towards the possibility of a wider insurgency against its apparatuses of process and control.

[willowtooth]

Well objectively more was done than yelling and the stomping of feet. That can be seen from the hundreds/thousands of pieces of media available showing a much different story. I'd also say that 'making them go away' is essentially a way of conceding the point and saying, 'the fash's organizing events got shut down with direct actions and people chased them on foot out of the city literally' (literally). I'm not going to entertain your refusal to acknowledge what clearly exists, you can do a keyword search and find a landslide of resources to help you on your journey to better understand what has happened. what do you think would've happened if they didn't? What did they prevent by doing this? if your so worried about them recruiting why not demand they be outlawed? It's not hard alot of countries have laws that prevent these people from organizing. Thats why this tactic makes sense in countries like Germany who have laws against nazi political parties. Americans don't, so all you did was give them lots of attention. They're not bigger these days, they've shrunk, their was a huge surge of white supremacist groups after Obama was elected that has slowly trickled off. Where were these protesters then?





Fascists already exist in these places, and they're attempting to organize, which is being shut down. What 're-invented' antifa as a boogeyman is the success at times and possibility for success of organizing and direct actions, from the perspective of the state. Which is likely concerned with the visibility of state/fascist collusion or the semblance of it, knows its unavoidable, and sees 'antifa' generally as an organizing platform towards the possibility of a wider insurgency against its apparatuses of process and control.
I bet you said the same thing about OWS. Nothing happened then, nothing will happen now. They didn't shutdown wall street either if you haven't noticed. Once antifa stops trending on twitter all these neo nazi and kkk groups will still be there. Nothing was shutdown, temporarily annoyed maybe, but not shutdown. You want maps of their compounds? Do you want addresses of their meeting places? How about home addresses? How about where their kids go to school?

[BIXX]

Willowtooth, you're suggesting that we allow fascists a platform. Keep in mind the number of people kept physically safe from fascist attacks in Charlottesville, or the fact that as fascists realize how unpleasant it is to confront antifa their rallies have been steadily shrinking. The number of them who drop out of politics, because of groups like antifa- actively harming their career and theirfuture organizing- if they can't get as many people to show up to their rallies then they are having their organizing disrupted.

[willowtooth]

Willowtooth, you're suggesting that we allow fascists a platform. Keep in mind the number of people kept physically safe from fascist attacks in Charlottesville, or the fact that as fascists realize how unpleasant it is to confront antifa their rallies have been steadily shrinking. The number of them who drop out of politics, because of groups like antifa- actively harming their career and theirfuture organizing- if they can't get as many people to show up to their rallies then they are having their organizing disrupted.
the problem with calling them fascists is that they seldom self identify as fascists. We need a slur like the word "liberal" that people actually identify as in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. How about moderate?

[ckaihatsu]

the problem with calling them fascists is that they seldom self identify as fascists. We need a slur like the word "liberal" that people actually identify as in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. How about moderate?


How about 'fuckheads' -- ? (Better than 'alt-right'.)

[Recuperation]

I can only speak for myself, but I've seen an increase in fascist agitation and propaganda in my area rather than a decrease. The local community college recently had blood and soil fliers plastered all over the place. A few weeks prior to that the local Nazi party was literally putting their pamphlets on people's doorsteps in my neighborhood. That's not something which happened last year or which I can recall ever happening. I live in a progressive city, The kkk would occasionally hold a rally consisting of a dozen people facing off against a few hundred counter protesters and then everyone would go home and forget about them until the next year. They certainly weren't ballsy enough to be handing out their propaganda door to door.

The clashes with antifa seem to be doing two things. Creating a harder core of fascists who are actively looking for a fight, thus driving them further and further into outright illegal activity (that is when the real fun will start). And of course the expected attempts of the media to place the two in the same camp together.

I don't think they should stop being physically confronted, but the situation begs another question: what else ya got?

[BIXX]

the problem with calling them fascists is that they seldom self identify as fascists. We need a slur like the word "liberal" that people actually identify as in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. How about moderate?

Except they are actual fascists. It's not about being a slur, it's the fact of what they are. The fact you think it's a simple slur shows how you either sympathize with them or are denying that fascism is an actual threat.

[willowtooth]

Except they are actual fascists. It's not about being a slur, it's the fact of what they are. The fact you think it's a simple slur shows how you either sympathize with them or are denying that fascism is an actual threat.
thats not what i said at all? you dont seem to want to have a rational discussion maybe you should go on twitter and bother some "alt-righter"?

[Recuperation]

He seems to think fascism is the result of thoughts and actions carried out by isolated individuals rather than a systemic feature of capitalism in crisis.

[willowtooth]

I can only speak for myself, but I've seen an increase in fascist agitation and propaganda in my area rather than a decrease. The local community college recently had blood and soil fliers plastered all over the place. A few weeks prior to that the local Nazi party was literally putting their pamphlets on people's doorsteps in my neighborhood. That's not something which happened last year or which I can recall ever happening. I live in a progressive city, The kkk would occasionally hold a rally consisting of a dozen people facing off against a few hundred counter protesters and then everyone would go home and forget about them until the next year. They certainly weren't ballsy enough to be handing out their propaganda door to door.like i said earlier they're not a cohesive group they dont exist. Most of the protests that have been attributed to them dont have any connection to any organized antifa groups. You have Fox news, Breitbart and now the white house (all much bigger platforms then the Berkeley student union hall) all decrying antifa and labeling everyone and their dog antifa. They're trying to get them labelled a terrorist group in several sates already. The state of Florida has just recently announced it will declare a state of emergency over the upcoming Unite the right rally led by Richard Spencer. Not because theyre afraid of the nazis of course, but because theyre afraid of the backlash of protesters led by... guess who? the mysterious left wing terrorist cell known as Antifa

Then of course every reactionary in Florida will be asking the question "why are we not labeling them terrorist group. Like we did in the 1950's?" It should be noted that while communism was the main focus of McCarthyism, nazi parties were outlawed as well. The "centrist" solution so to speak, the middle ground between genocide and no genocide, that is what we should expect.

But whatever created the increase in neo nazi activity in your area, I guarantee you it wasn't because antifa. Thats just a right wing narrative "you deserve these nazis because you did not behave like a good little liberal so you deserve the backlash, the moderates at breitbart were trying to protect you and you betrayed them" lol etc etc etc it would be another spectre being scapegoated if not for them, it would be someone else, if antifa didn't exist. They'd still be calling them BLM probably........ The redneck revolt might be a prime target if it wasn't for their stupid fucking name, maybe something with a scarier sounding acronym.



The clashes with antifa seem to be doing two things. Creating a harder core of fascists who are actively looking for a fight, thus driving them further and further into outright illegal activity (that is when the real fun will start). And of course the expected attempts of the media to place the two in the same camp together.

I don't think they should stop being physically confronted, but the situation begs another question: what else ya got?you either work to outlaw them or you give up hope on that front and start a secret network of assassins to take them all out, one by one, and hope it goes away in a generation or two.... or we could stop all this color revolution bullshit and start party building

[Recuperation]

The increase definitely isn't related to antifa. To my knowledge there have been no clashes here, I was just responding to their assertion that beating up people in a public spectacle is equivalent to disrupting fascism. Even if the individuals 'drop out of politics' for the time being (they won't) they'll take their convictions with them and when the time is right it will be like the little stick fights never even took place.

I think we're heading towards a major political crisis here in the US or we are likely already in it, but I think it will really come to a head when the midterms roll around. The Republicans will likely be routed and the Democrats are not in a position to lead the country out of it. These fights are just a precursor to that in my opinion. A rational, clear minded approach is whats needed, unfortunately so far its just been the same old mysticism and false consciousness that we always resort to.

[Ele'ill]

what do you think would've happened if they didn't? What did they prevent by doing this?

Direct action shut down fascist organizing. I think their organizing would have had a platform had it not been shut down.



if your so worried about them recruiting why not demand they be outlawed? It's not hard

Do you know for a fact that it isn't hard? Could you explain what that process would look like?



alot of countries have laws that prevent these people from organizing. Thats why this tactic makes sense in countries like Germany who have laws against nazi political parties. Americans don't, so all you did was give them lots of attention. They're not bigger these days, they've shrunk, their was a huge surge of white supremacist groups after Obama was elected that has slowly trickled off. Where were these protesters then?

Since they're trying to organize again, to increase their numbers and w/e else, it has to be stopped. An immediate way to do that is what we've seen, as opposed to what I imagine to be a dragged out process taking place after the fact (because they're holding torch-light rallies and organizing events right now).



I bet you said the same thing about OWS. Nothing happened then, nothing will happen now. They didn't shutdown wall street either if you haven't noticed.

I probably said a lot of things about ows because it was pretty weird. i think your assessment of ows is accurate in that nothing is still happening worth noting but I think there were pretty significant instances of revolt within it.

The fascist organizing events were shut down tho, to prevent fascists from organizing, to deny them a platform.



Once antifa stops trending on twitter all these neo nazi and kkk groups will still be there.

what exactly are you complaining about?




Nothing was shutdown, temporarily annoyed maybe, but not shutdown.

They held large public organizing events, which were shut down.



- so were some of their private organizing events.

[Recuperation]

Since they're trying to organize again, to increase their numbers and w/e else, it has to be stopped. An immediate way to do that is what we've seen, as opposed to what I imagine to be a dragged out process taking place after the fact (because they're holding torch-light rallies and organizing events right now).

Did fascism take hold in Germany because everyone joined the NSDAP?

[Ele'ill]

Did fascism take hold in Germany because everyone joined the NSDAP?

What is your point in relation to my post?

[Recuperation]

Why don't you want to answer my question? Perhaps the relation will become clear to you after we've established a position or two.

[Ele'ill]

Why don't you want to answer my question? Perhaps the relation will become clear to you after we've established a position or two.

Because I want to better understand your question which is why I asked how it related to the post. I'm trying to receive clarification by asking clarifying questions.

[Ele'ill]

As a separate question to the thread, where was the left and its party building while other communists and anarchists, along side people not formerly connected to insurgent politics but acting as insurgents anyways, fought the police, shut down fascist organizing events, and rallies, where fascist direct action was threatened against student bodies and communities

[Recuperation]

Because I want to better understand your question which is why I asked how it related to the post. I'm trying to receive clarification by asking clarifying questions.

It's a pretty straight forward question. Your answer would either be yes, no, or I don't know. All of which are fine answers which will allow us to continue with the discussion.

[Ele'ill]

It's a pretty straight forward question. Your answer would either be yes, no, or I don't know. All of which are fine answers which will allow us to continue with the discussion.

i understand the possible answers to that question, what I don't understand is how your question is related to my post. In order to quickly answer your question and elaborate if I am able to, I asked you clarifying questions which you have not answered.

[Recuperation]

Very well, let's say that it has no relation whatsoever to your previous post. Is mass membership within the NSDAP what caused fascism to take hold in Germany?

[Ele'ill]

Very well, let's say that it has no relation whatsoever to your previous post. Is mass membership within the NSDAP what caused fascism to take hold in Germany?

no

[Recuperation]

So, would you agree that disruption of the NSDAP and its organizing would not have been sufficient to stop the growth of fascism? Given that its numerical membership was not the key to it taking power in Germany?

[BIXX]

Preventing the Nazis from taking power would have looked like direct disruption of their events- as well as immediate communist measures (which various people who label themselves as "antifa" do make attempts at, to varying levels of success). Not party building, but commune building.

[Ele'ill]

So, would you agree that disruption of the NSDAP and its organizing would not have been sufficient to stop the growth of fascism? Given that its numerical membership was not the key to it taking power in Germany?

Do you think it would look exactly the same? I think disrupting their rallies and organizing events both public and private carries with it more than just the action itself, it shows a way to do something. There is an uprising against fascist ideas and disruptions of their organizing with what could be called community defense against fascism, which is communist activity. Especially after the disillusionment or pessimism of politics and the police.

[Recuperation]

Thats just the point though, the anti-fascists in Germany went to extreme lengths to disrupt the NSDAP and did so with a fair amount of success in that regard. Not simple beatings, or interrupting speeches, I'm talking gun battles in the streets. And they had numbers, tactics, weaponry and importantly, a will that antifa can only dream of. It all amounted to absolutely nothing, the fascists still took power with ease. Doing something is not enough, not when it doesn't work. Theres a massive hole in the logic being deployed by the antifascists of our day, they've learned nothing from the past. They're playing at a game, adopting slogans and costumes that are not theirs. Luckily for them their opponents are also playing it for the time being. But if you cling to confrontation alone as a strategy, you will not survive once this game is over and the real thing starts.

Step 1 of doing the right thing, is ceasing at once to do the wrong thing. Antifa is currently engaged in the wrong thing and they will fail as a result, even if they manage to beat up a few 4chan losers in a public park from time to time before that happens.

Willowtooth is the one who suggested party building, so if you want to argue about that you'll have to do it with them, I don't take an interest in it at this point in my life.

[TucsonTrotskyite]

While I agree that Antifa is not as successful at stopping the Alt-Right Fascist movement, I also agree with Recuperation's statement that the techniques used by Antifa are not satisfactory to crush the growing Fascist movement here in America. We are not dealing with a typical right-wing movement that simply has their opinion with which to help people with; rather, we are dealing with a group that wishes to see the mass murder of millions of innocent people simply because of the color and circumstance of their birth. There is no other option with dealing with the indoctrinated group. They must be crushed under our heels with the precise swiftness that the working people are capable of. Remember comrades, the enemy is not our brethren whom simply attend these rallies, rather it is their leadership whom poison the minds of the youth so that they can assert dominance and control through the use of fear and hate that are our true enemies. I urge those on this forum, whether member or guest, to do their best at resisting both the fascist agenda, its leadership and in the worst possible case, be willing to fight,kill, and die for that sense of freedom that all people have a right to have.

[Ele'ill]

Thats just the point though, the anti-fascists in Germany went to extreme lengths to disrupt the NSDAP and did so with a fair amount of success in that regard. Not simple beatings, or interrupting speeches, I'm talking gun battles in the streets. And they had numbers, tactics, weaponry and importantly, a will that antifa can only dream of. It all amounted to absolutely nothing, the fascists still took power with ease. Doing something is not enough, not when it doesn't work. Theres a massive hole in the logic being deployed by the antifascists of our day, they've learned nothing from the past. They're playing at a game, adopting slogans and costumes that are not theirs. Luckily for them their opponents are also playing it for the time being. But if you cling to confrontation alone as a strategy, you will not survive once this game is over and the real thing starts.

Step 1 of doing the right thing, is ceasing at once to do the wrong thing. Antifa is currently engaged in the wrong thing and they will fail as a result, even if they manage to beat up a few 4chan losers in a public park from time to time before that happens.

Willowtooth is the one who suggested party building, so if you want to argue about that you'll have to do it with them, I don't take an interest in it at this point in my life.

Maybe. I think you mistook my post to willowtooth for optimism. Willowtooth said organizing events and rallies hadn't been shut down, they have. That is what my posts were addressing.

actions kept immediate communities safe and made it a thing to eject nazis

[willowtooth]

protests in florida right now https://itsgoingdown.org/igd-gainesville-gators-mobilize-neo-nazis/

It's being heavily policed, the cops are throwing out protesters for everything from tattoos to bandannas. The nazis plans are to harass some local synagogues later on tonight. Haven't seen any "no gods no masters" banners, but the bob avakian gang might not have shown up yet. Have seen some free palestine signs though which is weird...

This is what shutdown looks like

[BIXX]

I'm curious as to why you feel that is a shutdown vs other events not being a shutdown?

[willowtooth]

I'm curious as to why you feel that is a shutdown vs other events not being a shutdown?
im kidding, nothings been shutdown obviously

try watching the live feed of the speech its fucking painful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctgkckX3qlU

[BIXX]

So is it your opinion that not one fascist event has actually been shut down by antifa during this surge of antifa activity in response to the fascist mobilization that has been taking place for roughly a year?

[willowtooth]

So is it your opinion that not one fascist event has actually been shut down by antifa during this surge of antifa activity in response to the fascist mobilization that has been taking place for roughly a year?
sure why not?

Why dont you tell us what your opinion of antifa is

[Ele'ill]

protests in florida right now

it looks like his speech was largely disrupted

also more fash shooting at people / trying to kill people

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/20/richard_spencer_supporters_arrested_for_attempted_ murder_in_gainesville.html

[willowtooth]

it looks like his speech was largely disrupted Yes such a victory that was..... its too bad they have the internet in the south now and can organize and say whatever they want for as long as they want online. They can't get on the news though.


also more fash shooting at people / trying to kill people

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/10/20/richard_spencer_supporters_arrested_for_attempted_ murder_in_gainesville.htmlThis is probably the best thing that these protesters can do, stand in the way, and serve as a target for the nazis, because they were looking for trouble. The guy on left in that photo is definitely a gangster from the aryan brotherhood, he probably unironically sees this as cleaning his life up and getting involved in politics. The guy on the right looks like he shouldve been in a mental asylum a long time go.

If they didn't attack those protestors they would've attacked somebody else, beaten up some black kids or torched a mosque or a synagogue, maybe kill a transsexual. There's no equivalent on the opposite side nobody from antifa is going around beating up white kids and torching churches. When antifa talks about violence they talk about killing richard spencer. which i still dont understand why nobody has done yet.

Maybe because like Trump they understand its not about him, that its a systemic problem, and that killing this guy won't solve anything. I think alot of people fall for his innocent rhetoric. Spencer actually claims to love jews and the state of israel despite his fans plotting to bomb a synagogue and lynch a few jews later that night. When people hear that they instinctively back off, he sounds stupid, he sounds confused, his rhetoric makes no sense whatsoever.

Listening to people in that auditorium who (largely students under 25 years old) try and debate him like he's one of their socially maligned classmates, and like edward norton in american history X he just needs to learn a few life lessons and he'll convert and leave his little cult. It shows how futile these meetings really are. If they're not going to even talk about jews in any kind of negative way, what the hell kind of nazi meeting is it really going to be? So who is it for? They've adopted so much left wing rhetoric i honestly think at this point you could rewrite a W.E.B dubois speech about abolitionism replace every reference to black people with white people, change a few antiquated words and deliver it at one of their meetings to cheers and applause.

Either way this was not lead by antifa or any socialist organization these were democrats. There is no reason why we cannot work within the democratic party they have no ideals written in stone, or even paper. There is no reason why we cannot work within the republican party either for that matter. The republican party used to be a major trotskyist stronghold, Lincoln was republican, its a party born to fight the civil war on behalf of the north. How right wing ideologues stole the party away from the left is another matter.

[BIXX]

Yes such a victory that was..... its too bad they have the internet in the south now and can organize and say whatever they want for as long as they want online. They can't get on the news though.

This is probably the best thing that these protesters can do, stand in the way, and serve as a target for the nazis, because they were looking for trouble. The guy on left in that photo is definitely a gangster from the aryan brotherhood, he probably unironically sees this as cleaning his life up and getting involved in politics. The guy on the right looks like he shouldve been in a mental asylum a long time go.

If they didn't attack those protestors they would've attacked somebody else, beaten up some black kids or torched a mosque or a synagogue, maybe kill a transsexual. There's no equivalent on the opposite side nobody from antifa is going around beating up white kids and torching churches. When antifa talks about violence they talk about killing richard spencer. which i still dont understand why nobody has done yet.

Maybe because like Trump they understand its not about him, that its a systemic problem, and that killing this guy won't solve anything. I think alot of people fall for his innocent rhetoric. Spencer actually claims to love jews and the state of israel despite his fans plotting to bomb a synagogue and lynch a few jews later that night. When people hear that they instinctively back off, he sounds stupid, he sounds confused, his rhetoric makes no sense whatsoever.

Listening to people in that auditorium who (largely students under 25 years old) try and debate him like he's one of their socially maligned classmates, and like edward norton in american history X he just needs to learn a few life lessons and he'll convert and leave his little cult. It shows how futile these meetings really are. If they're not going to even talk about jews in any kind of negative way, what the hell kind of nazi meeting is it really going to be? So who is it for? They've adopted so much left wing rhetoric i honestly think at this point you could rewrite a W.E.B dubois speech about abolitionism replace every reference to black people with white people, change a few antiquated words and deliver it at one of their meetings to cheers and applause.

Either way this was not lead by antifa or any socialist organization these were democrats. There is no reason why we cannot work within the democratic party they have no ideals written in stone, or even paper. There is no reason why we cannot work within the republican party either for that matter. The republican party used to be a major trotskyist stronghold, Lincoln was republican, its a party born to fight the civil war on behalf of the north. How right wing ideologues stole the party away from the left is another matter.
Do I actually have to point out everything tat wrong with your post, or will you admit that you don't belong on a revolutionary forum?

[Ele'ill]

Yes such a victory that was..... its too bad they have the internet in the south now and can organize and say whatever they want for as long as they want online. They can't get on the news though.

they want to play politics though which is why it's not limited to online , if i even understand what you meant


This is probably the best thing that these protesters can do, stand in the way, and serve as a target for the nazis, because they were looking for trouble.

ugh



The guy on left in that photo is definitely a gangster from the aryan brotherhood, he probably unironically sees this as cleaning his life up and getting involved in politics. The guy on the right looks like he shouldve been in a mental asylum a long time go.

If they didn't attack those protestors they would've attacked somebody else, beaten up some black kids or torched a mosque or a synagogue, maybe kill a transsexual. There's no equivalent on the opposite side nobody from antifa is going around beating up white kids and torching churches. When antifa talks about violence they talk about killing richard spencer. which i still dont understand why nobody has done yet. Maybe because like Trump they understand its not about him, that its a systemic problem, and that killing this guy won't solve anything.

the equivalent so far has been some pretty heavy community direct action but tbh i have no idea what you're talking about


I think alot of people fall for his innocent rhetoric. Spencer actually claims to love jews and the state of israel despite his fans plotting to bomb a synagogue and lynch a few jews later that night. When people hear that they instinctively back off, he sounds stupid, he sounds confused, his rhetoric makes no sense whatsoever.

:confused:


Listening to people in that auditorium who (largely students under 25 years old) try and debate him like he's one of their socially maligned classmates, and like edward norton in american history X he just needs to learn a few life lessons and he'll convert and leave his little cult. It shows how futile these meetings really are.

what/whose meeting are you talking about




If they're not going to even talk about jews in any kind of negative way, what the hell kind of nazi meeting is it really going to be? So who is it for? They've adopted so much left wing rhetoric i honestly think at this point you could rewrite a W.E.B dubois speech about abolitionism replace every reference to black people with white people, change a few antiquated words and deliver it at one of their meetings to cheers and applause.

:confused:


Either way this was not lead by antifa or any socialist organization these were democrats.

I pointed it out because it was amusing how the example you were using to prove your point that no event had ever been shut down was an event that had been shut down.

https://itsgoingdown.org/gainesville-media-murder-complete-alt-right-failure/


There is no reason why we cannot work within the democratic party they have no ideals written in stone, or even paper. There is no reason why we cannot work within the republican party either for that matter. The republican party used to be a major trotskyist stronghold, Lincoln was republican, its a party born to fight the civil war on behalf of the north. How right wing ideologues stole the party away from the left is another matter.

nah

[willowtooth]

Do I actually have to point out everything tat wrong with your post, or will you admit that you don't belong on a revolutionary forum?
lol says the asshole who does nothing but post sarcastic one line posts. seriously youve been crying for months about chris now your jumping on me with this shit? fuck off

[willowtooth]

they want to play politics though which is why it's not limited to online , if i even understand what you meant

what do you mean by play politics?


ughits true





the equivalent so far has been some pretty heavy community direct action but tbh i have no idea what you're talking aboutunless your saying "heavy community direct action" is the equivalent of hate crimes then you might not understand.






what/whose meeting are you talking about
whoops i forgot the link i posted to bixx was live feed and not a recording. Here's the video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZK_999sTgU



I pointed it out because it was amusing how the example you were using to prove your point that no event had ever been shut down was an event that had been shut down.

https://itsgoingdown.org/gainesville-media-murder-complete-alt-right-failure/

what is your obsession with whether or not a meeting has been shutdown or not? Yes I am aware some of these rallies (or meetings whatever were calling them stunts is probably a better word them) have literally been cancelled because of these protests. I am not denying reality I am saying this is not the 1930's these meetings are not important, if they were they wouldn't advertise them. Pointing out "who's the fascist" like some never ending witch hunt is pointless. This is not europe you cannot be arrested for being nazi. These protests are as liberal as they come, they are against one man donald fucking trump. If hillary was elected they wouldn't be protesting, if fucking ted cruz was president these protests wouldn't exist. How can we be for these protests but then say "dont support the democrats, don't vote for hillary"? Aren't you happy Trump is president? where did all the accelerationist talk go? where did all the "well who gives a fuck if hillary or trump wins" bullshit? now were fucking marching? to what? impeach donald trump? wouldn't it have been easier to support hillary?


nahtotes mcgoats

[Jimmie Higgins]

Willow,

How do you think people become revolutionaries from being liberals or apolitical?

Do you think anything should be done against the far-right reboot attempts? If so, if you do not think opposing the directly is the right tactic, how do you think they should be stopped or opposed?

[BIXX]

lol says the asshole who does nothing but post sarcastic one line posts. seriously youve been crying for months about chris now your jumping on me with this shit? fuck off

I post sarcastic one line posts, yet somehow my positions taken are actual revolutionary positions rather than those I'd expect from.a fascist troll or a liberal. Also, fyi, brining up ckaihatsu is a infractable offense in my experience.


Yes such a victory that was..... its too bad they have the internet in the south now and can organize and say whatever they want for as long as they want online.
I do think disruption of their online communities would be an interesting project even if it's one I wouldn't be very helpful with.

They can't get on the news though.
Objectively false.


This is probably the best thing that these protesters can do, stand in the way, and serve as a target for the nazis
LOL, so you're siding with the fash.

because they were looking for trouble.
So your statement is a little ambiguous- anti fascists were looking for trouble or the fascists were? And how does either one make it a good thing (in your opinion) that the anti fascists were shot at? These are the words of some soft POS who has never hit the streets, who likes to hold onto their little identities without having any content whatsoever. You allow your positions as a leftist to be manipulated to such a degree in this way that you're supportive of fascists shooting at anti-fascists. Go live in the real world for a minute before talking out your ass. Again, you don't belong on this board.


The guy on left in that photo is definitely a gangster from the aryan brotherhood, he probably unironically sees this as cleaning his life up and getting involved in politics. The guy on the right looks like he shouldve been in a mental asylum a long time go.
I don't really understand what the point of this is.


If they didn't attack those protestors they would've attacked somebody else, beaten up some black kids or torched a mosque or a synagogue, maybe kill a transsexual.
There's no evidence to support these claims. Also, I will say your usage of the word "transsexual" is at best disconcerting.


There's no equivalent on the opposite side nobody from antifa is going around beating up white kids and torching churches. When antifa talks about violence they talk about killing richard spencer. which i still dont understand why nobody has done yet.
Why does antifa need to match the fascists? This is an entirely assymetric conflict, we don't use the same tactics to achieve non-comparable goals. Btw, you're taking intentionally nebulous positions so you can deny what you've said previously by claiming it's not what you meant- I just want you to know, there is no positive way your posts can be interpreted, every single one is liberal at best and reactionary at worst- that is, if they're comprehensible.


Maybe because like Trump they understand its not about him, that its a systemic problem, and that killing this guy won't solve anything.
I don't understand you hypermacho infatuation with bringing up killing folks but then flipping around and being like "IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING"


I think alot of people fall for his innocent rhetoric. Spencer actually claims to love jews and the state of israel despite his fans plotting to bomb a synagogue and lynch a few jews later that night. When people hear that they instinctively back off, he sounds stupid, he sounds confused, his rhetoric makes no sense whatsoever.
His rhetoric isn't about making sense, even the liberal media has figured that shit out. Jesus, you let CNN beat you to this conclusion?


Listening to people in that auditorium who (largely students under 25 years old) try and debate him like he's one of their socially maligned classmates, and like edward norton in american history X he just needs to learn a few life lessons and he'll convert and leave his little cult. It shows how futile these meetings really are. If they're not going to even talk about jews in any kind of negative way, what the hell kind of nazi meeting is it really going to be? So who is it for? They've adopted so much left wing rhetoric i honestly think at this point you could rewrite a W.E.B dubois speech about abolitionism replace every reference to black people with white people, change a few antiquated words and deliver it at one of their meetings to cheers and applause.
Show me all this left wing rhetoric.


Either way this was not lead by antifa or any socialist organization these were democrats.
When?


There is no reason why we cannot work within the democratic party they have no ideals written in stone, or even paper. There is no reason why we cannot work within the republican party either for that matter. The republican party used to be a major trotskyist stronghold, Lincoln was republican, its a party born to fight the civil war on behalf of the north. How right wing ideologues stole the party away from the left is another matter.

So you're a reformist?

Or rather, would you like to show me a single insurrectionary situation that has arisen from within the state?

You're not a revolutionary, you're either a dumbass liberal reformist or a fascist troll. To reiterate (again), you don't belong on this board.

[Ele'ill]

what is your obsession with whether or not a meeting has been shutdown or not?

someone denying that the events (shut downs etc..) have happened is essentially conspiracy theories and obsession, most of what you've posted in this thread either makes no sense or is incorrect



Yes I am aware some of these rallies (or meetings whatever were calling them stunts is probably a better word them) have literally been cancelled because of these protests. I am not denying reality I am saying this is not the 1930's these meetings are not important, if they were they wouldn't advertise them.

you claimed multiple times that nothing had been shut down, even some of the private fash meetings have been discovered and disrupted, they're dropping a lot of time and energy into reaching out at universities and doing other organizing, which has been shut down




Pointing out "who's the fascist" like some never ending witch hunt is pointless. This is not europe you cannot be arrested for being nazi.

fash are being identified and pressured/ejected from jobs/careers, uni, cities, etc.. it's also so others know that they're a fascist




These protests are as liberal as they come, they are against one man donald fucking trump. If hillary was elected they wouldn't be protesting, if fucking ted cruz was president these protests wouldn't exist. How can we be for these protests but then say "dont support the democrats, don't vote for hillary"? Aren't you happy Trump is president? where did all the accelerationist talk go? where did all the "well who gives a fuck if hillary or trump wins" bullshit? now were fucking marching? to what? impeach donald trump? wouldn't it have been easier to support hillary?

I think it's fairly significant that there are struggles coming together at certain times. The reintroduction of direct action by communists and anarchists with formerly unassociated others, sometimes just others, finding or adopting tactics on the fly, because there is an understanding being developed through experiences that you can't rely on the state to protect you, you have to rely on yourself and others for protection against it. Riots becoming as common as protests, people fighting back against the police as common as anti police chants, which are as common as peace signs once were. The distrust and resentment is no longer just encompassing the events of a single election but of elections, of presidents, ecology, economics, of the present and future. It's worth noting that hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars even, worth of security can no longer openly guarantee an impenetrable dystopia of defense. There are things just now beginning to happen for real, which have been on the edge of people's suspicion for some time, the contradiction between the current form of life and ecological collapse is one imo






totes mcgoats

flip

[willowtooth]

I post sarcastic one line posts, yet somehow my positions taken are actual revolutionary positions rather than those I'd expect from.a fascist troll or a liberal. Also, fyi, brining up ckaihatsu is a infractable offense in my experience.
what positions???? i asked you to take a position on antifa youve done nothing but criticize my position. Bringing up ckaihatsu is not infractable, constantly being a fucking asshole like you is


I do think disruption of their online communities would be an interesting project even if it's one I wouldn't be very helpful with.disrupt but dont outlaw? whats your opinion on the first amendment?





LOL, so you're siding with the fash.
no you are... fucking child

So your statement is a little ambiguous- anti fascists were looking for trouble or the fascists were? And how does either one make it a good thing (in your opinion) that the anti fascists were shot at? These are the words of some soft POS who has never hit the streets, who likes to hold onto their little identities without having any content whatsoever. You allow your positions as a leftist to be manipulated to such a degree in this way that you're supportive of fascists shooting at anti-fascists. Go live in the real world for a minute before talking out your ass. Again, you don't belong on this board.oh so your saying its better that the fascists... i can't even mock this childish bullshit try not putting words in peoples mouth so you can attack a weak strawman. do you really think i beleive that or are you just an asshole?



I don't really understand what the point of this is.since when does a lack of understanding prevent you from being an asshole?



There's no evidence to support these claims. Also, I will say your usage of the word "transsexual" is at best disconcerting. there is no evidence to support the nazi would've attacked somebody after the rally are you high?... or wait for it .... are you just a stupid asshole?



Why does antifa need to match the fascists? This is an entirely assymetric conflict, we don't use the same tactics to achieve non-comparable goals. Btw, you're taking intentionally nebulous positions so you can deny what you've said previously by claiming it's not what you meant- I just want you to know, there is no positive way your posts can be interpreted, every single one is liberal at best and reactionary at worst- that is, if they're comprehensible.
again you didn't understand what I wrote and your attacking a straw man, more assholehishness you could build a house with all this straw


I don't understand you hypermacho infatuation with bringing up killing folks but then flipping around and being like "IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING"
more shit covered straw from the asshole


His rhetoric isn't about making sense, even the liberal media has figured that shit out. Jesus, you let CNN beat you to this conclusion?then why do you care?



Show me all this left wing rhetoric.ummmm stuff like reverse racism, white genocide turning arguments about black people and replacing them with white people like i said... oh wait this isn't a serious question its another mind trick your playing? your trying to get me to quote him and then you can jump and down scream that I called Richard spencer a leftist right? fuck you asshole



When?when do you think? you fucking stupid asshole




So you're a reformist?

Or rather, would you like to show me a single insurrectionary situation that has arisen from within the state?

You're not a revolutionary, you're either a dumbass liberal reformist or a fascist troll. To reiterate (again), you don't belong on this board.Why? then what would you even write about? Would you try to get another administrator banned? you hate this board so fucking much then leave it, honestly they shouldve banned you. what the fuck do you even do here but attack other leftists?

[willowtooth]

someone denying that the events (shut downs etc..) have happened is essentially conspiracy theories and obsession, most of what you've posted in this thread either makes no sense or is incorrect9/11 was an inside job


you claimed multiple times that nothing had been shut down, even some of the private fash meetings have been discovered and disrupted, they're dropping a lot of time and energy into reaching out at universities and doing other organizing, which has been shut downIve also repeated multiple times at this point that I know theyve stopped a couple events, what im saying is, that it doesn't matter the organizations themselves were not shutdown, this is not the WTO people are not flying in private jets from around the world to carve it up for themselves a little bit further, this was not even a donald trump election rally. Look at the video its like 20 guys, Im not worried about 20 guys chatting for a couple hours. youtube is a bigger platform than the university of florida at Gainseville public hall... shutting down stormfront was a bigger victory


fash are being identified and pressured/ejected from jobs/careers, uni, cities, etc.. it's also so others know that they're a fascist
And this is because they were in broad daylight. if they didn't have the rally or it had been "shutdown" they would all still have jobs





I think it's fairly significant that there are struggles coming together at certain times. The reintroduction of direct action by communists and anarchists with formerly unassociated others, sometimes just others, finding or adopting tactics on the fly, because there is an understanding being developed through experiences that you can't rely on the state to protect you, you have to rely on yourself and others for protection against it. Riots becoming as common as protests, people fighting back against the police as common as anti police chants, which are as common as peace signs once were. The distrust and resentment is no longer just encompassing the events of a single election but of elections, of presidents, ecology, economics, of the present and future. It's worth noting that hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars even, worth of security can no longer openly guarantee an impenetrable dystopia of defense. There are things just now beginning to happen for real, which have been on the edge of people's suspicion for some time, the contradiction between the current form of life and ecological collapse is one imo

dont get me wrong i love antifa Im always the first to defend them and all the others protesting, but im just apathetic because ive said all this before, during OWS (which i actually traveled to attend in nyc), and BLM. Now I'm seeing the same story play out. OWS was more of a hippy happening than anything else, with BLM we got things like the civil rights branch at the justice department, body cameras, we got somebody to finally start counting the amount of people killed by police. We made it clear that cops can be video taped no matter how times they tell people its illegal. There was a long list but something got accomplished, not much but something. But again i was saying these are liberals alot of them are devout christians, alot of them hate communists, we need a strictly communist organization and not try and take credit for BLM. I'm saying the same thing now, ANtifa sort of became a white mans BLM its hard for non black people to really form and join an activist group about black people nationwide, especially since there's not alot of black people in america and they're mostly in the cities. if you live in a small town what are you supposed to do?

flipwhy is it so impossible?

[willowtooth]

Willow,

How do you think people become revolutionaries from being liberals or apolitical?I don't know


Do you think anything should be done against the far-right reboot attempts? If so, if you do not think opposing the directly is the right tactic, how do you think they should be stopped or opposed?I dont think my opinion really matters, im just one person, im a felon so even my vote doesn't matter

[Ele'ill]

9/11 was an inside job

kay



Ive also repeated multiple times at this point that I know theyve stopped a couple events,


what you posted was that organizing events hadn't been shut down, and you used an example of an event that had been shut down, it's also been more than a couple

you don't have to be optimistic about anything, i'm certainly not, but you should get the facts correct at least





what im saying is, that it doesn't matter the organizations themselves were not shutdown, this is not the WTO people are not flying in private jets from around the world to carve it up for themselves a little bit further, this was not even a donald trump election rally. Look at the video its like 20 guys, Im not worried about 20 guys chatting for a couple hours. youtube is a bigger platform than the university of florida at Gainseville public hall... shutting down stormfront was a bigger victory

Would you feel safe living in a city knowing that 20 people, at least, were openly organizing for violence against you, others. friends, family? How do you feel about the police?


they went from hundreds/thousands marching with torches to 10-20 being protected by police, nazis getting punched everywhere




And this is because they were in broad daylight. if they didn't have the rally or it had been "shutdown" they would all still have jobs

both happened actually, the rallies were disrupted or shut down and their photos/video taken, identified, and ejected from life




dont get me wrong i love antifa Im always the first to defend them and all the others protesting, but im just apathetic because ive said all this before, during OWS (which i actually traveled to attend in nyc), and BLM. Now I'm seeing the same story play out. OWS was more of a hippy happening than anything else,

It depends on where you were during ows. The west coast had some moments, and I think some of the solidarity stuff was cool like simultaneous evictions being resisted and stuff. I don't see antifa actions as being similar in character to ows though.






with BLM we got things like the civil rights branch at the justice department, body cameras, we got somebody to finally start counting the amount of people killed by police. We made it clear that cops can be video taped no matter how times they tell people its illegal.

Estimates have existed before and why does a near exact number matter in your opinion? Was it worth the fight, why? The issue was never that police would say, hey that's illegal, and then people would say okay and leave. The issue was being arrested for interference and other charges, confiscation of the the entire recording device (phone) and video, assault by the police, or some combination of those things, all of which still takes place as it did before. Cops kill people and get a vacation, and walk, and return to work. There was an NLG observer amidst a sea of NLG observers who was for all intents and purposes, assaulted, by the police for recording the police assaulting random people on a sidewalk during a demo recently. Fwiw journalists in St louis were kettled and arrested, held on the ground and pepper sprayed, with credentials. Cops break the law all the time, they don't give a fuck.





There was a long list but something got accomplished,

below you're talking about a strictly communist organization so i'd question whether or not that 'something' could be considered communist activity, and since the answer is clearly no imo, are you trying to just expand communism to accept liberal politics




not much but something. But again i was saying these are liberals alot of them are devout christians, alot of them hate communists, we need a strictly communist organization and not try and take credit for BLM. I'm saying the same thing now, ANtifa sort of became a white mans BLM its hard for non black people to really form and join an activist group about black people nationwide, especially since there's not alot of black people in america and they're mostly in the cities. if you live in a small town what are you supposed to do?

i'm struggling to understand what you mean in your post

there have been a lot of liberals at events that have been shut down, a lot probably have shit politics who i would hate, some who engaged in direct actions that i don't think are very successful or useful but i think it's cool that they tried, but that doesn't dismiss the other rather large blocs that formed to not sit behind barricades and instead did direct action and shut down events that wouldn't be shut down otherwise. This is including liberals and others who threw down against the police and conspired to spread collective disorder against governance, during the election, and from the announcement of trump's presidency through the disruption of a nationwide fascist political campaign.



why is it so impossible?

Because of an inherent limit of power, individually and collectively within those channels you are talking about working in. Because the interest and goals are diametrically opposed to communism and the state uses processes of mediation that are peaceful to it as a mechanism of control and extension of governance.

[Left-Wing Nutjob]

They're disorganized troublemakers and a bad joke.

IMHO. :)

[BIXX]

what positions???? i asked you to take a position on antifa youve done nothing but criticize my position. Bringing up ckaihatsu is not infractable, constantly being a fucking asshole like you is

disrupt but dont outlaw? whats your opinion on the first amendment?





no you are... fucking child
oh so your saying its better that the fascists... i can't even mock this childish bullshit try not putting words in peoples mouth so you can attack a weak strawman. do you really think i beleive that or are you just an asshole?


since when does a lack of understanding prevent you from being an asshole?
there is no evidence to support the nazi would've attacked somebody after the rally are you high?... or wait for it .... are you just a stupid asshole?



again you didn't understand what I wrote and your attacking a straw man, more assholehishness you could build a house with all this straw


more shit covered straw from the asshole
then why do you care?


ummmm stuff like reverse racism, white genocide turning arguments about black people and replacing them with white people like i said... oh wait this isn't a serious question its another mind trick your playing? your trying to get me to quote him and then you can jump and down scream that I called Richard spencer a leftist right? fuck you asshole


when do you think? you fucking stupid asshole



Why? then what would you even write about? Would you try to get another administrator banned? you hate this board so fucking much then leave it, honestly they shouldve banned you. what the fuck do you even do here but attack other leftists?

So, when your whole argument is based around calling someone a "stupid fucking asshole", it sounds an awful lot like you're admitting you can't respond to any of their points. You care to actually elaborate a position that I can engage with rather than just losing your mind that someone on here disagrees with you?

[Recuperation]

BIXX I have not called you an asshole or anything of the sort. All the same I would like to see a direct statement on antifa from you, since you do seem to be avoiding it.

[BIXX]

BIXX I have not called you an asshole or anything of the sort. All the same I would like to see a direct statement on antifa from you, since you do seem to be avoiding it.

You have not called me an asshole or anything I don't think, I was commenting on willowtooth's... 'argument'?

As far as a direct statement on antifa there are some people and things I like and some people and things I don't like. It's kinda like asking what my opinion on weather is- there are lots of different types of weather and therefore I can't give a conclusive all encompassing statement about antifa. What I can say is that fascist organizing in my area and in various other areas of the country has been slowed or even reversed- and I attribute it to antifa, yes.

[Jimmie Higgins]

BIXX, what specific Antifa tactics made it successful, or is it the fact that people were principled and confronting the far right?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I feel that antifascist organising from communities should be shown our solidarity in all its forms, even if utilising tactics we disagree with or see as creating complications. An aspect of solidarity isn't just patting ourselves on the back and proclaiming to the high heavens its success but at the root of it offering comradely advice and suggestions. At the risk of sounding patronising, as I'm sure all who participate in the thread understand already, fascism is fluid ideology that basks in its own contradictions but I recommend to anyone to read Umberto Eco's Ur Fascism (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/) to gain a good grip on its origins and the similarities in fascist movements that remain constant to this day. Ultimately, I think it could be said that fascism is a movement that emerges from capitalism and in a sense acts as an extension of all the aspects of capitalism contemporary liberals would rather ignore.

In this manner, antifascist organising, whether it takes on an openly anticapitalist character or not, is a rejection of the idea that the threats of violence in our communities will go away if only we wait for the sanctioned violence of the state to step in, it's a rejection of the idea that workers have no avenues to defend themselves from racism, sexism and homophobia except those legal avenues provided by the capitalist state which itself created the conditions fascism emerges from.

[BIXX]

BIXX, what specific Antifa tactics made it successful, or is it the fact that people were principled and confronting the far right?

I would say some of both. The continued tenacity of confronting the far right is a product of the principle, which IMO has been a huge driving factor for success. On the other hand, I think the tactic of forcefully engaging fascists is incredibly important because it forces fascists into a more difficult organizing situation. The combination of the two is where it all comes together though.

I am willing to say that there is more that can be done to make the current antifa movement stronger (and I'm speaking from the experience of my location, I don't know necessarily the community details of other places where clashes with fascists have taken place, like Berkeley and Charlottesville) would be to have antifascist action flow into communizing and commune building of community strengthening. Partially because there ends up being the issue of a "now what" after the fascists have been repelled, so having a healthy community where various projects are taking place aside from antifascist organizing (social centers, other political fights, etc...) gives you an immediate flow from antifascist action into things like Food not Bombs (if you're into that sort of thing) or protecting an anarchist social center from eviction (again, if you're into that sort of thing). The further integration of communist politics into antifascist action marks a viable way for people to experience communist action and also for us to begin to organize as a serious opposition to capital, whether by our newfound way of life (those we build in the process of communist action which makes that form of life inherently anticapitalist) or through our continued disruption of capital, but probably both.

I know this post is a bit rambling so sorry if it doesn't make much sense, happy to clarify anything if you've got any more questions.

[TucsonTrotskyite]

Well I thank Willow for that video, and I have never been so queasy and disgusted in my life. Unlike Conservatives and Liberals, the fascist does not want economic or social reform or focusing of the betterment of society; they want the total ethnic cleansing of our society and if they had the chance, the world. I am aggravated by this man whom takes pride in the fact that his ancestors were responsible for the colonization, rape, and murder of the peoples of Latin America and the Native America. I want nothing more than to see the likes of him ostracized by the society he lives in.

[BIXX]

Unlike Conservatives and Liberals, the fascist does not want economic or social reform or focusing of the betterment of society; they want the total ethnic cleansing of our society and if they had the chance, the world.

That's something that I was just talking with a friend of.mine about the other day actually. How fascists in the 20th century were interested in advancing science, various infrastructure issues, etc... Of course, all in the name of creating a better place to live for "Aryans" (which is the same justification they use for their mass exterminations of racial minorities). However, modern fascists of the 21st century have little to no interest in that sort of thing- their only interest is in the destruction of non-whites. I have to wonder why that is? Anyone have any articles or insights as to why this is?

[TucsonTrotskyite]

Thanks Bixx, I will try to locate such an article and send it to you. I do suggest however, that you disregard Eli'ill's posts. He was more interested with short quips about your arguments rather than trying to debate that issue. I commend the Admin Jimmie Higgins on his actually intelligent posts that has meaning. Not to take away on the posts that Eli was posting as well. I just dont see the need to become like those fascists whom argue with us. I want you all to treat each other like the comrades we are. We all joined RevLeft because we want to change this country and the world for the better, remember this comrades.

[BIXX]

Thanks Bixx, I will try to locate such an article and send it to you. I do suggest however, that you disregard Eli'ill's posts. He was more interested with short quips about your arguments rather than trying to debate that issue. I commend the Admin Jimmie Higgins on his actually intelligent posts that has meaning. Not to take away on the posts that Eli was posting as well. I just dont see the need to become like those fascists whom argue with us. I want you all to treat each other like the comrades we are. We all joined RevLeft because we want to change this country and the world for the better, remember this comrades.

Dude, are you alright?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

That's something that I was just talking with a friend of.mine about the other day actually. How fascists in the 20th century were interested in advancing science, various infrastructure issues, etc... Of course, all in the name of creating a better place to live for "Aryans" (which is the same justification they use for their mass exterminations of racial minorities). However, modern fascists of the 21st century have little to no interest in that sort of thing- their only interest is in the destruction of non-whites. I have to wonder why that is? Anyone have any articles or insights as to why this is?
So I spend a little bit of time watching some youtube leftists and a lot of the time these folks make videos criticising the arguments of the far right youtubers. I know that the organised far right in the US aren't just a bunch of internet fucklords but these far right youtubers (Sargon of Akkad, BlackPigeon etc) essentially serve as gateways to fascist ideology. One thing that's pretty consistent is that these guys claim to be 'rationals' and their movement on youtube essentially emerged from the atheist movement which used to spend a lot of time debunking the arguments of creationists. Only, it's really fucking easy to debunk creationism because creationism is stupid. So when confronted with other aspects of science such as social sciences engaging with the position of women in society, transgenderism, and research on immigration etc they rarely do anything but a surface amount of research, appealing to the lowest forms of argument, and so in effect reject contemporary scientific research methodology and understanding to adopt positions that essentially are forty years old. And when you reject contemporary scientific understanding because it disagrees with your political ideology and when you believe that universities are nothing more than Jewish propaganda machines, then you can hardly consider 'advancing science' to be a part of your ideology. That's my take on it and it serves once again to reveal the inherent contradictions of fascism, that they sometimes claim to be rational science advocates but reject the scientific research that goes against their point of view.

[Recuperation]

What does "showing solidarity" to the antifascists even mean? Taking part in the confrontation? OK, well if one happens to erupt near you I suppose that's a definite option.

Purchasing protective gear or first aid supplies? I guess if there were some specialized group that could facilitate those kinds of logistics that would be an option.

Liking videos on facebook or posting glowing comments on reddit? Let's be honest, this is the most likely option available to those participating in this thread or reading it. Unfortunately it is not solidarity. The thumbs up icon can not save anyone. In fact this kind of solidarity if we call it that is detrimental to their success. A lack of authentic criticism will and let's be honest has allowed the wildest stupidity to run free.

The liberals and the identitarians will never find their silver bullet for fascism and so cheering them on amounts to betrayal if not out-right sabotage of the future. Shame on anyone hiding their lack of thought behind a flimsy veneer of solidarity.

[Ele'ill]

I do suggest however, that you disregard Eli'ill's posts. He was more interested with short quips about your arguments rather than trying to debate that issue. Not to take away on the posts that Eli was posting as well. I just dont see the need to become like those fascists whom argue with us.

What exactly did you find objectionable about my posts?



What does "showing solidarity" to the antifascists even mean? Taking part in the confrontation? OK, well if one happens to erupt near you I suppose that's a definite option.

make it happen


Purchasing protective gear or first aid supplies? I guess if there were some specialized group that could facilitate those kinds of logistics that would be an option.

jail support/legal, other actions, actions elsewhere



Liking videos on facebook or posting glowing comments on reddit? Let's be honest, this is the most likely option available to those participating in this thread or reading it. Unfortunately it is not solidarity. The thumbs up icon can not save anyone. In fact this kind of solidarity if we call it that is detrimental to their success. A lack of authentic criticism will and let's be honest has allowed the wildest stupidity to run free. The liberals and the identitarians will never find their silver bullet for fascism and so cheering them on amounts to betrayal if not out-right sabotage of the future. Shame on anyone hiding their lack of thought behind a flimsy veneer of solidarity.

hardly anyone here or there would be interested in what you're describing above

[Recuperation]

I doubt it. I would wager that the amount of people posting uncritical comments in praise of antifa outweighs actual antifa participation 10:1 if not 100:1.

How does one create the confrontation as you suggest? What are the practical steps?

[Ele'ill]

I doubt it. I would wager that the amount of people posting uncritical comments in praise of antifa outweighs actual antifa participation 10:1 if not 100:1.

there's a fairly steady critique of the way of thinking you described in your last post that runs across communist/anarchist tendencies so it's highly unlikely that there is theoretical compatibility between the people who frequent such spaces and the activities you described in your previous post

In the event that there are more people posting praise of any type than involved in antifa action then so what because that smaller number was still successful on lots of occasions, but it is more likely that the antifa action you are trying to generalize isn't the only type of action taking place.

Imo the position you're taking dismisses instances where people unaffiliated and unfamiliar with anarchist and communist praxis engaged in revolt against fascism and the police.


How does one create the confrontation as you suggest? What are the practical steps?

just look around and you can see how confrontation occurs, from the us election riots to the inauguration riots, to the waves of direct actions against fascism and the police

there is a growing connectedness within a violent flight from a form of life and civilization that we all know is on its deathbed

[Recuperation]

Ele'ill I don't mean this as an insult but I can't find any content in your posts. I feel like someone took some piece from tiqqun, loaded all the text into a database and then wrote up a program to spit random entries out at people. I genuinely do not know what you just wrote.

[Ele'ill]

Ele'ill I don't mean this as an insult but I can't find any content in your posts. I feel like someone took some piece from tiqqun, loaded all the text into a database and then wrote up a program to spit random entries out at people. I genuinely do not know what you just wrote.

I pretty much just restated what I had already posted and there's nothing overly complex in my post. I don't mean this as an insult either but if you're having trouble maybe spend some time in the learning forum, but it's probably obnoxious to continuously interject into conversations on topics you are unfamiliar with.

[Recuperation]

"a violent flight from a form of life and civilization that we all know is on its deathbed". Yeah that's gibberish, it also doesn't reflect reality. Have people stopped going to work? Does the water from your tap still flow? Are the markets stocked? How about those riots? Are they still going on?

These are empty words. People have been signalling the impending collapse of civilization for oh.... all of recorded history?

[Ele'ill]

"a violent flight from a form of life and civilization that we all know is on its deathbed". Yeah that's gibberish,

sorry you didn't get it, what about the rest of my post(s) that you haven't responded to


it also doesn't reflect reality. Have people stopped going to work?

yes


Does the water from your tap still flow?

oh yeah the world's water is doing pretty good



Are the markets stocked?

:lol:



How about those riots? Are they still going on?

yes


These are empty words. People have been signalling the impending collapse of civilization for oh.... all of recorded history?

you realize civilizations have collapsed right

[Recuperation]

The rest of that post was unintelligible as I said. You're side stepping and its really obvious. No people have not stopped going to work is the answer you were afraid to give. Yes your water still flows was the answer you were afraid to give. Yes the markets are still stocked is the answer you are afraid to give. And yes the riots have stopped is the answer you are afraid to give, isolated stick-fights not withstanding.

individual civilizations collapse and yet Civilization continues, peculiar no?

Actually do you guys remember when the LA riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? because I do.

Remember when the Seattle riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when the largest anti-war protests ever were the signal that people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when the Arab spring was the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when Occupy wall street riots the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? Yep.

Remember when the Kiev riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? Uhhuh.

Remember when Ferguson was the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? lol.

I'm quite interested in your age to be honest. <30? <20? <18?

[BIXX]

Recuperation, you realize that when something dies it takes a while to decompose, right?

[Recuperation]

Sure, show me the death and I'll believe in the decomposition.

[Ele'ill]

The rest of that post was unintelligible as I said. You're side stepping and its really obvious. No people have not stopped going to work is the answer you were afraid to give.

you're avoiding the original topic by not responding to most of what's in my posts, you're pretending to become sidetracked with some silly tiqqun/civilization distraction that you beelined for even though you 'don't get it'', but the rest of the post is some how the unintelligible part

unemployment and shitty precarious life spreads across the world and you're talking about people not going to work lol



Yes your water still flows was the answer you were afraid to give.

what use is unusable water and dead oceans

sometimes thanks to ecological collapse the water doesn't run like in areas completely destroyed by unusually strong storms and lengthy droughts



Yes the markets are still stocked is the answer you are afraid to give. And yes the riots have stopped is the answer you are afraid to give, isolated stick-fights not withstanding.

it's not just about riots though and they have continued for the same reasons all over the world




individual civilizations collapse and yet Civilization continues, peculiar no?

it's not peculiar, revolts are crushed and people are destroyed, a civilization may collapse and another emerge but what does that look like now?



Actually do you guys remember when the LA riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? because I do.

Remember when the Seattle riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when the largest anti-war protests ever were the signal that people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when the Arab spring was the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? I do.

Remember when Occupy wall street riots the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? Yep.

Remember when the Kiev riots were the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? Uhhuh.

Remember when Ferguson was the signal that the people were rising up and that all this was over? lol.

I'm quite interested in your age to be honest. <30? <20? <18?

there were people saying all kinds of dumb stuff throughout what you've listed here but there were other discussions and perspectives that were more interesting than 'all this was over' as if that was a thing

[Recuperation]

The original topic is support for antifa. You haven't said much in relation to it other than "its working". What else is there to say? I don't care about side tracking you. I'm fond of tiqqun myself so its easy to see it dripping off both your posts and BIXX's is all. I imagine perlman is another favorite for you two. Unfortunately you wield the language without much skill and their fancy words can't make up for your own lack of content.

I know what you really want is some pointless tendency dick measuring content, but alas I won't be giving it to you.

Precarious work, lack of access to proper drinking water, eruptions of violence, none of this is new. Crisis has been humanity's habitat for a very long time. Which is why we developed methods of control which wholly rely on it. The more you escalate, the deeper you get.

[Ele'ill]

you've taken this wildly off-topic and not stuck with a particular topic and this is a thread about antifa and not really a place for freefloating ramble so i'm done enabling that but after this post


The original topic is support for antifa. You haven't said much in relation to it other than "its working". What else is there to say? I don't care about side tracking you. I'm fond of tiqqun myself so its easy to see it dripping off both your posts and BIXX's is all. I imagine perlman is another favorite for you two. Unfortunately you wield the language without much skill and their fancy words can't make up for your own lack of content.

i've said quite a bit about antifa though, i meant that you became sidetracked and preoccupied with some buzz words, all of your posts were responded to but you have failed to respond to large parts of my posts but you went for those words like you wanted to escape the original topic


I know what you really want is some pointless tendency dick measuring content, but alas I won't be giving it to you.

i was going to settle for you finally illustrating an intelligible position without changing the subject


Precarious work, lack of access to proper drinking water, eruptions of violence, none of this is new. Crisis has been humanity's habitat for a very long time. Which is why we developed methods of control which wholly rely on it. The more you escalate, the deeper you get.

a lot of the details of those things are pretty significant as is the extent or severity and are in fact new. i get crisis as control but i don't get 'the more you escalate the deeper you get'

[Greekcommunist]

For what i can tell about antifa in my country(greece) they are ultraleftists who dont contribute anything that actually matters.

[Recuperation]

you've taken this wildly off-topic and not stuck with a particular topic and this is a thread about antifa and not really a place for freefloating ramble so i'm done enabling that but after this post



i've said quite a bit about antifa though, i meant that you became sidetracked and preoccupied with some buzz words, all of your posts were responded to but you have failed to respond to large parts of my posts but you went for those words like you wanted to escape the original topic



i was going to settle for you finally illustrating an intelligible position without changing the subject



a lot of the details of those things are pretty significant as is the extent or severity and are in fact new. i get crisis as control but i don't get 'the more you escalate the deeper you get'

Hah I apologize for taking us 'wildly off track'. Then again this board has been dead for over a year now. Are you so anxious to go back to reading spam?

My overall point is that you and BIXX who are the main defenders of antifa in here have not been able to provide any content for that defense. Your posts have lots of text but nothing to respond to, his are one line sarcastic remarks. I've lurked this board for several years. Personal attacks based on ones political tendency are the bread and butter here, I know that. But if I refuse to get down in the mud with you, you're left floundering. I imagine this would be the case with the other posters here who are so used to this board's culture so you shouldn't feel singled out.

My intelligible position is that you lack critical thinking skills. Not in regards to others but to yourself and your own positions. I would aim this position at antifa as well. Reading books and regurgitating them back at people is truly a useless exercise, for you and me. If I want tiqqun, I'll read them. I've been trying to dig an actual position out of you for the entire thread, because I don't give a fuck about whatever identity you've internalized over the course of your readings.

But if you're fed up with me there isn't much incentive to continue. I can withdraw from the thread if my presence has been so distasteful and harmful to the important conversations you would prefer to have about punching Nazis in the face or the imminent revolt of the masses.

Best of luck to all of us.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I'm legitimately surprised that you're unsure about what 'solidarity' means as it's kind of always been a staple of revolutionary leftist organising - to show your support for your fellow workers and do what you can to facilitate their successes or develop from their failures. Ele'ill suggests one of the more important aspects in the case of antifascism, that of financial support during legal struggles, but antifascist action has always had broad elements to organising. It's essentially a propaganda war and near everyone on the left needs to challenge the liberal suggestion that "advocating genocide" and "organising against the advocates of genocide" are, in anyway, comparable. I guess solidarity in this case can be something as 'simple' as posting online to counter a bullshit fascist narrative. Solidarity is about building support for our fellow workers in their struggles no matter how they emerge.

It's easy to look at the situation in the US and scoff at the idea that there's anything positive to be had, I get that. However, I can only draw on my own experiences in the UK where direct action against fascists essentially destroyed the EDL. The leadership might still have been around but most of the membership disappeared and in the face of such disruption the leadership split and became even more ineffective. There's, unfortunately, always this unassailable core of bigotry within these movements but those on the periphery legitimately fade away when confronted openly. When people talk about 'antifa' successes in the US it may seem minor or in a small way pathetic even but direct action has legitimately discouraged a lot of potential fascist recruits and disrupted fascist organisations from operating openly - it's not an example from the US but in Italy antifascists recently did this: http://libcom.org/news/community-action-shuts-down-fascist-meeting-rome-13092017 and, essentially, as revolutionaries we should be encouraging and organising for the same in our communities whenever we are faced with fascist groups polluting our neighbourhoods. And antifa direct action doesn't just involve showing up at a protest dressed entirely in black but also there's day to day stuff such as cataloguing fascist websites, tracking fascist members and engaging with community groups and such to ensure that they are aware of fascists descending on their areas to hold their rallies and meetings.

Maybe you don't draw much from it personally, and that's fine, but to suggest that revolutionaries shouldn't show solidarity, or that solidarity is meaningless, is to ignore our traditions and to abandon the fact that the working class, as a class, must confront all the ills of capitalism together in order to achieve communism. Antifascist action is perhaps not a pure 'revolutionary' form of praxis in all its forms but it is certainly a praxis which deviates from the expectations of liberal capitalism and directly confronts the far right.

[BIXX]

Recuperation is playing the game of 'i can't understand what you mean' when confronted with an argument that delegitimizes their original claims. If they really are a fan of tiqqun as they claim, they should understand what it is that Ele'ill is saying. It's not a hard argument to understand and the positions taken here are clear reflections of tiqqun and similar authors.

Also, to whine about me making sarcastic one line posts is clearly not true, but if you want me to respond at length to what's said, perhaps give me something that actually requires more than a one line post. Or, alternatively, engage me where I ask questions such as at post #82. But if someone's argument is unable to stand and there's a short reply that I can give to it that's quick and concise, I'll choose that option. I also don't really feel the need to lay the whole game of responding to every detail you've posted, because eventually you reach of point of ridiculous analysis that's missing what the argument actually is.

[Recuperation]

Recuperation is playing the game of 'i can't understand what you mean' when confronted with an argument that delegitimizes their original claims. If they really are a fan of tiqqun as they claim, they should understand what it is that Ele'ill is saying. It's not a hard argument to understand and the positions taken here are clear reflections of tiqqun and similar authors.

Also, to whine about me making sarcastic one line posts is clearly not true, but if you want me to respond at length to what's said, perhaps give me something that actually requires more than a one line post. Or, alternatively, engage me where I ask questions such as at post #82. But if someone's argument is unable to stand and there's a short reply that I can give to it that's quick and concise, I'll choose that option. I also don't really feel the need to lay the whole game of responding to every detail you've posted, because eventually you reach of point of ridiculous analysis that's missing what the argument actually is.

Good god.


If I want tiqqun, I'll read them. I've been trying to dig an actual position out of you for the entire thread, because I don't give a fuck about whatever identity you've internalized over the course of your readings.


All I can say is: WHOOOOSH

[Recuperation]

I'm legitimately surprised that you're unsure about what 'solidarity' means as it's kind of always been a staple of revolutionary leftist organising - to show your support for your fellow workers and do what you can to facilitate their successes or develop from their failures. Ele'ill suggests one of the more important aspects in the case of antifascism, that of financial support during legal struggles, but antifascist action has always had broad elements to organising. It's essentially a propaganda war and near everyone on the left needs to challenge the liberal suggestion that "advocating genocide" and "organising against the advocates of genocide" are, in anyway, comparable. I guess solidarity in this case can be something as 'simple' as posting online to counter a bullshit fascist narrative. Solidarity is about building support for our fellow workers in their struggles no matter how they emerge.

It's easy to look at the situation in the US and scoff at the idea that there's anything positive to be had, I get that. However, I can only draw on my own experiences in the UK where direct action against fascists essentially destroyed the EDL. The leadership might still have been around but most of the membership disappeared and in the face of such disruption the leadership split and became even more ineffective. There's, unfortunately, always this unassailable core of bigotry within these movements but those on the periphery legitimately fade away when confronted openly. When people talk about 'antifa' successes in the US it may seem minor or in a small way pathetic even but direct action has legitimately discouraged a lot of potential fascist recruits and disrupted fascist organisations from operating openly - it's not an example from the US but in Italy antifascists recently did this: http://libcom.org/news/community-action-shuts-down-fascist-meeting-rome-13092017 and, essentially, as revolutionaries we should be encouraging and organising for the same in our communities whenever we are faced with fascist groups polluting our neighbourhoods. And antifa direct action doesn't just involve showing up at a protest dressed entirely in black but also there's day to day stuff such as cataloguing fascist websites, tracking fascist members and engaging with community groups and such to ensure that they are aware of fascists descending on their areas to hold their rallies and meetings.

Maybe you don't draw much from it personally, and that's fine, but to suggest that revolutionaries shouldn't show solidarity, or that solidarity is meaningless, is to ignore our traditions and to abandon the fact that the working class, as a class, must confront all the ills of capitalism together in order to achieve communism. Antifascist action is perhaps not a pure 'revolutionary' form of praxis in all its forms but it is certainly a praxis which deviates from the expectations of liberal capitalism and directly confronts the far right.

Monkeyman I understand exactly what kind of Solidarity is on offer. If you're capable of providing material or legal support to the antifascists then you should do that. If you can lend actual manpower to a confrontation, you should do that. I said as much in my post. Unfortunately that is not an option for 90% of people even in the US, let alone other countries. Aside from one off demonstrations which take place in the middle every few months, the vast majority of clashes are taking place in a hyper-liberal bastion located in California which does not reflect the conditions of the rest of the country.

So what people are left with is giving vocal solidarity, almost exclusively on the internet. This leads to two things, the first being uncritical attitudes and thought which I think I've addressed enough so I will avoid beating a dead horse. Number 2 though is perhaps even worse. These people are essentially outsourcing their sense of outrage and powerlessness onto the antifa activists.

Have you noticed that BLM has essentially disappeared here in the last few months? What has it been replaced by? Multi-millionaire athletes kneeling for a moment before the game starts. Those inauguration riots after trump got elected? Those have disappeared as well, replaced with the nightly outrage of fucking Jimmy Kimmel or some other asinine television personality or newspaper columnist. This is the future of antifascist action here in the US. 10s of thousands of people consuming empty riot porn created by a numerically insignificant band of activists in Berkeley.

You can't see the dangers in that?

[BIXX]

10s of thousands of people consuming empty riot porn created by a numerically insignificant band of activists in Berkeley.
When does it go from numerically insignificant to numerically significant?


Don't worry, I haven't forgotten your other post.

[Recuperation]

I think you're the one who is supposed to be telling me that? I'm saying it won't.

[BIXX]

I think you're the one who is supposed to be telling me that? I'm saying it won't.
Sorry, your reading comprehension has clearly failed you. What is the number that makes the "band of activists" numerically significant?

[Recuperation]

Well lets see, there are roughly 330 million people in the country. So let me flip the question on you, are the Berkeley antifascists numerically significant in your mind?

[BIXX]

Sorry, you need to define these numbers seeing as I think this numerical significance shit you're spouting is... well, shit. Numerical significance also matters less than you think it might.

[Recuperation]

Which number do you want me to define? The population of the country?

I crunched some numbers for you:

Its difficult to quantify political engagement as its not a metric that anyone with the tools to track it are very interested in. So lets settle for electoral participation? Its certainly not perfect but seeing as the ballot is held up in this country as the supreme act of citizenship I don’t think its totally useless either.

In the last election 139,000,000 people cast a ballot, that’s about 42% of the population. So that’s 42% of the population that at the very least had some kind of investment in the system as of November of last year, enough to register and then request an absentee ballot, fill it out and mail it in or even stand in line for a few hours just to cast their vote. I think it’s fair to assume that a large amount of people are prevented from voting, either through suppression, ID issues or laws stripping felons of the right, etc. So lets add another 3% to that number for a flat 45% of adults willing to participate in America’s liberal democracy.

Lets be insanely generous and say that the Berkeley antifascists number in the range of 10,000, that’s .00003% of the population. Lets use my completely BS estimation of there being a 100:1 supporter to activist ratio for Antifa, that still only brings us to a whopping .003% of the population.
Earlier in this thread you appeared to suggest communization as your preferred social revolution strategy? Do you imagine that .003% of the population is sufficient to carry out a program of communization? Or to offset the 45% of the population who we can assume have some kind of investment (with at least 20% being conservatives who have a DEFINITE investment) in things continuing as they are? I would say you are bordering on a vanguard strategy at that point, without taking into account that “successful” vanguard strategies take decades to develop, not months.

These numbers aren’t even taking into account people with no interest in voting but who take a keen interest in politics regardless.

I await your thoughtful response.

[Recuperation]

Suggested soundtrack for this comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvnsj8G7QM

This conversation got real hostile, lets lower the tone a little. Hostility is perhaps a poor indicator of commitment?

[BIXX]

Suggested soundtrack for this comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRvnsj8G7QM

This conversation got real hostile, lets lower the tone a little. Hostility is perhaps a poor indicator of commitment?
I appreciate your peace offering, here is mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzAuXuxD0Oo

Don't worry tho, I've got a reply coming in a few minutes.

[BIXX]

Which number do you want me to define?
What is the number of people who have to be involved in these clashes for them to be considered significant for you?


I don’t think its totally useless either.
For revolutionaries it is.


In the last election 139,000,000 people cast a ballot, that’s about 42% of the population. So that’s 42% of the population that at the very least had some kind of investment in the system as of November of last year, enough to register and then request an absentee ballot, fill it out and mail it in or even stand in line for a few hours just to cast their vote. I think it’s fair to assume that a large amount of people are prevented from voting, either through suppression, ID issues or laws stripping felons of the right, etc. So lets add another 3% to that number for a flat 45% of adults willing to participate in America’s liberal democracy.
Hell, add 20% to your estimate- even at 63% that leaves 37% who wouldn't participate in this liberal democracy. This is why your metric is useless for revolutionaries- if 37% of the population isn't voting, instead snubbing political engagement with liberalism, that doesn't speak to their future actions, and furthermore, voting doesn't speak much to the actions that'll be taken by the voters in the future- how many were people who hadn't engaged with radial politics prior to Trump's election? How many will flip? Etc...

I'm gonna have to rearrange some of what you said to make a point without jumping back and forth, if you feel that I'm just cutting your post up and rearranging it so it doesn't make any sense I'd remind you that I'm responding to the points your argument rests on.


Earlier in this thread you appeared to suggest communization as your preferred social revolution strategy?
If we wanna get really nerdy, not at all, communization is communization- not a "social revolution strategy".


Do you imagine that .003% of the population is sufficient to carry out a program of communization?
There is no "program".


Lets be insanely generous and say that the Berkeley antifascists number in the range of 10,000, that’s .00003% of the population. Lets use my completely BS estimation of there being a 100:1 supporter to activist ratio for Antifa, that still only brings us to a whopping .003% of the population.


Or to offset the 45% of the population who we can assume have some kind of investment (with at least 20% being conservatives who have a DEFINITE investment) in things continuing as they are?
So, lets crunch a few more numbers. I'll be cutting these down a bit based on personal observations that close to 1/3rd of these people are also communists- that number I'd assume gets lower in some cases and higher in others, so hopefully it'll average out a bit.
40,000 antifascists showed their faces in Boston
2,000 roughly in Portland
Dunno why I can't find the actual numbers on how many antifascists were at cville but I'm willing to say 3000, as a low estimate.
I think saying there's 10,000 in Berkley is fair, maybe a bit high, lets drop it to 8,000.
There are a lot of cities I'm not gonna bother counting up, for example Ferguson and St. Louis, or New York, Maine, San Jose, Oakland, etc... Due to simplicity. Lets be generous to you, and say only 10,000 antifascists are left in the US- an estimate I'm positive is low.
Which leaves us with 63,000 antifascists, and assuming roughly 1/3rd are communists, 21,000 communists. Given estimates of various leftist organization membership, I'd say that this number is probably on the low end, as most communists appear to be unaffiliated with an official organization.
21,000 commies equals roughly .0065% of the population- already more than your estimate of total supporters of antifa. At 63,000 you're looking at nearly .02% of people just acting as antifascists- and for fun, let's look at your "bs estimate" off 100:1. We get just under 2% of the population supporting antifascist action. Now I think this will vary from locality to locality, but it looks roughly accurate as a general trend (I live in a decidedly left-liberal to leftist area where I'd be willing to bet that number is much higher, maybe as high as 10%- I'm gonna guess most areas are lower- say 1-2%, which various population centers swinging to the extreme ends of the spectrum).

Lets check that against the insurgency in afghanistan- .25% of people are insurgents there, roughly, with varying levels of support in different areas of the country. I acknowledge that there is a difference between .25% and .0065%- a rather large one, at that. But the reality of the insurgency is a long and complicated one, which has been holding off the armed forces of various coalitions and nations at varying levels of support and membership. The problem isn't so much one of numbers, but of ethic.

I would say you are bordering on a vanguard strategy at that point, without taking into account that “successful” vanguard strategies take decades to develop, not months.
This is a whole other discussion I'd be interested in, but I just wanna say that any insurrection will have people who come first.

[Recuperation]

Ignoring semantics, communization would require conscious exertion by the individual correct? No more mass psychology and all that? What metric are you using to place 37% of the population, a HUGE number in a rejectionist camp? I know plenty of people who don’t participate in the system at all sorts of different levels and capacities and 99% of them are legitimately just not doing anything. With no conscious intent. Being a superfluous human is a legitimate occupation in this country already, even without something like basic income in place yet haha. But superfluous humans are a part of this epoch right, this context? They are still as likely to spout the same patriotic nonsense that any conservative or liberal is.

I think its interesting that your examples bring you back to armed conflict alone. Even at the peaks of the insurgency in Afghanistan the country has never been in a situation of total war, and has maintained its cultural integrity. They also have a completely different history from us. Wouldn’t you agree that insurrection of this military sort also leads to exceptionalisms and tribalisms? The necessity of secrecy would naturally leads to exclusion of fellow conscious-communizers right?

[uncle sam]

Hey Fag!

I would love to believe that us communists and dick suckers alike should join together to circle jerk antifas dick! We all love to suck their nuts and they love it when w e put it up their ass. That's my position and would love to hear your thoughts.

Check your privilege,

Uncle Mother Fuckin Sam 8===D-----

[BIXX]

Ignoring semantics, communization would require conscious exertion by the individual correct? No more mass psychology and all that? What metric are you using to place 37% of the population, a HUGE number in a rejectionist camp?
My point was that I don't believe the voting stats are significant, because of exactly that- I don't believe 37% of the country is rejecting capital so much as just not participating- it forms tmean anything about their future actions. OTOH, voting doesn't mean someone won't abandon liberalism.

But superfluous humans are a part of this epoch right, this context? They are still as likely to spout the same patriotic nonsense that any conservative or liberal is.
They're also just as likely to flip as anyone else.

I think its interesting that your examples bring you back to armed conflict alone. Even at the peaks of the insurgency in Afghanistan the country has never been in a situation of total war, and has maintained its cultural integrity.
Total war isn't something I think is particularly practical for liberation from the existing order (if you mean total war in the sense I think you do). Also, I think the maintenance of their cultural integrity is up for debate depending on who you ask in those countries. Culture is more often than not a personal (or rather, ideological) analysis of societal values.

They also have a completely different history from us.
Agreed- but I think that it is again less relevant than folks think. The necessity to destroy capitalism exists just as much there as it does anywhere else.


Wouldn’t you agree that insurrection of this military sort also leads to exceptionalisms and tribalisms?
Would you mind expanding on this? I don't wanna reply to something thinking you mean one thing and have it turn out you mean something else.


The necessity of secrecy would naturally leads to exclusion of fellow conscious-communizers right?
Aside from my personal criticisms of the idea of class consciousness, I think communes will be formed by the fight against capital itself, among people who have struggled together etc...

[quixoteslance]

The neo-Nazis are just feeble and pathetic byproducts of globalized capitalism. They don't even have the means to perform their agenda.
They are a symptom of a sick society. But simply curing a symptom does not cure the disease. Globalized capitalism along with the watched national borders is mobilizing fascism and creating victims every second and those whining self-identified "Nazis" are just feces of its organism.
Fight Neo-Nazi assembly? Doesn't hurt. But there's much more to be done.
Antifa is shortsighted like this.

[supremenincompoop]

After reviewing antifa I've learned this non-group; since it is based on independent cells, is anti-facist. Yet it employs the same tactics and rhetoric as Hitler. Nazism started as a Socialist movement just like antifa. This movement claims to be anti-racist yet targets whites, which the last time I checked is a racial classification. This sick, perverted group embraces pedophilia because age is a social constraint. Does this mean that if someone wanted to rape a baby it is ok? Since rape is a social constraint does that make rape acceptable? The entire premise of this joke of a non-group is based on a poor reflection of true anarchy. True anarchy means without leadership, not without rules. So, if there is anyone who assumes a leadership place in this movement...they are no longer representing anarchy. Does this mean it really doesn't exist? See how foolish this could become. The uneducated, social outcasts who make up this movement need to get a real life. Join the military and get some real structure and discipline. Obviously they are not smart enough to even know what they are supposed to believe.



Antifa is a gathering of fellow communists, socialists, and anarchists. What is your view on this movement? I think that they are putting the Idea of a proletariat revolution to actual application rather than the current "neo-liberal" (Ew... gotta get that taste outta my mouth) idea of no intervention whatsoever. In my opinion, they are our tool as the far-left to fight these neo-fascist white supremacists. So yeah, I want to know what my fellow lefties think. Oh, and if you are a fascist just browsing... fuck off m8. -Miguel

[BIXX]

The neo-Nazis are just feeble and pathetic byproducts of globalized capitalism. They don't even have the means to perform their agenda.

Given that they've both killed and beaten people, I don't really care if you think that antifa is short sighted- they do save actual lives. You also seem to think no one involved with antifascist action is involved with anything else- that is objectively untrue. Antifasicts are in numerous other fields, from housing, to anti-police brutality, to actual direct work against capital. Not all antifascists of course but I'd wager a large amount of them. To claim short sightedness shows your lack of familiarity with Antifa itself.

[quixoteslance]

Given that they've both killed and beaten people, I don't really care if you think that antifa is short sighted- they do save actual lives. You also seem to think no one involved with antifascist action is involved with anything else- that is objectively untrue. Antifasicts are in numerous other fields, from housing, to anti-police brutality, to actual direct work against capital. Not all antifascists of course but I'd wager a large amount of them. To claim short sightedness shows your lack of familiarity with Antifa itself.
Maybe my observation is partial, but I see the antifas as somewhat liberal leaning. A lot of antifas are formerly or even currently Bernie supporters. Their current dynamics in US also focuses on liberal issues.
Maybe we are just referring to different groups of people. But if activists under the name of antifa and anarchism effectively ally with the true problem makers to beat the neo-nazis and if all their doings mount to clearing the way for a new Hillary, that will be too sad.

[BIXX]

Maybe my observation is partial, but I see the antifas as somewhat liberal leaning. A lot of antifas are formerly or even currently Bernie supporters. Their current dynamics in US also focuses on liberal issues.
Maybe we are just referring to different groups of people. But if activists under the name of antifa and anarchism effectively ally with the true problem makers to beat the neo-nazis and if all their doings mount to clearing the way for a new Hillary, that will be too sad.

Once again you're showing your lack of actual knowledge about Antifa. There surely are "antifascists" who are Bernie bros but the vast majority are not. For the most part they're communists and people sympathetic to communists. I will agree that some organizations (I have a specific Portland org in mind as I write this) who loosely affiliate themselves with antifascists but are liberals through and through, however those orgs consistently have major internal clashes with antifascists due to their attempts at coopting antifascist struggle.

IMO it's the work of antifascists to also begin building alternative projects, not just focusing on antifascist activity but other communist measures that go beyond those I've listed in my previous post.

[TomLeftist]

Willow: you are right, what poor people (blacks, whites, muslims, latinos, gays etc) need is an ultra-leftist political party, or political front, with a radical leftist political program. With a scientific orderly way of spreading ultra-leftist propaganda (not leftist, because in USA leftist might mean Amy Goodman, Naomi Klein, The Nation Magazine, Jeremy Scahill, Chris Hedges, Green Party, Sean Pen, Danyy Glover, Oliver Stone, Juan Cole, Cindy Sheehan etc) and those people in mentioned there are not radical marxists, they are like centrist-leftists (Like Michelle Bachelet) the current Chilean president.

So I think that what need is a front, composed of all the leftists of the whole USA who are in favor of a dictatorship of the workers and poor peasants


I just dont agree fundamentally on anarchist style organization, no leader, no council, no face, just "antifa". We saw this with Occupy wall st, and it lead nowhere. Once the crisis or "recession" was over OWS was forgotten as quickly as it appeared. Just as once the Trump presidency is over, or probably not even that long, the american antifa revival will be forgotten just as mysteriously as it appeared

[quixoteslance]

Once again you're showing your lack of actual knowledge about Antifa. There surely are "antifascists" who are Bernie bros but the vast majority are not. For the most part they're communists and people sympathetic to communists. I will agree that some organizations (I have a specific Portland org in mind as I write this) who loosely affiliate themselves with antifascists but are liberals through and through, however those orgs consistently have major internal clashes with antifascists due to their attempts at coopting antifascist struggle.

IMO it's the work of antifascists to also begin building alternative projects, not just focusing on antifascist activity but other communist measures that go beyond those I've listed in my previous post.
I believe there are antifas who are engaging at communist and anarchist fronts. But the appearance of antifa on media and activities of my local antifa demonstrate little communist or anarchist agenda. Especially the antifas around me, they are more like liberals acting violently. It seems their momentum are gained mostly from those sympathetic with identity politics more than revolutionary leftism. Those communist or anarchist antifas are not having much voice in the whole movement, or at least their agenda is not reflected well. But certainly they make the mainstream feel the fear and introduces a far-left gesture, so I won't say they are just liberals. They are trying to push leftism as far as it is not revolutionary. All I am saying is that they are somewhat short-sighted, maybe waiting for some triggering.

[TucsonTrotskyite]

Quixoteslance, are you saying "in theory" if there was a push for a complete revolution, then the liberal antifa could perhaps be swayed to fight for the goals of the Communist Ideology? If you could elaborate on what kind of trigger we would need that would be much appreciated.

[quixoteslance]

Quixoteslance, are you saying "in theory" if there was a push for a complete revolution, then the liberal antifa could perhaps be swayed to fight for the goals of the Communist Ideology? If you could elaborate on what kind of trigger we would need that would be much appreciated.
I think about it and I feel like I can't imagine them being in a total revolution... Sorry...:unsure: It's possible for the liberal leaning antifas to block the Wall Street or the congress though. I just don't want to criticize them too harshly because they are doing good things for now.

[AngryDwarf]

My opinion: antifa are widely left-wing Association, with conflicting ideas and goals, which is logical for such opportunistic movements. This movement is helpless and in no way able to bring the socialist revolution and the establishment of proletarian dictatorship. But in some cases can be useful. For example, as protection from the fascist(nationalist) groups, gangs, incited by the bourgeoisie to destroy the Marxists

[Ele'ill]

My opinion: antifa are widely left-wing Association, with conflicting ideas and goals, which is logical for such opportunistic movements. This movement is helpless and in no way able to bring the socialist revolution and the establishment of proletarian dictatorship. But in some cases can be useful. For example, as protection from the fascist(nationalist) groups, gangs, incited by the bourgeoisie to destroy the Marxists

I think it's probably better than not that a fascist platform was shut down with force by thousands of armed people on a handful of occasions, who set out with that purpose. To say that their specific activity didn't or couldn't bring about socialist revolution misses the point imo that thousands of armed people hospitalized their enemies while shutting down a fascist platform and pursuing them afterwards and that there was nothing else from the general left to do that so some silly bands of people refusing to participate in activism or waiting armed themselves and attacked

Imo I think it's noteworthy that from the elections until present, people previously unaffiliated with a particular revolutionary trajectory carried out actions like highway blockades, holding space, clashes with the police, the fash, and a generalized narrative seen as action was carried, against elections, the police, fascism, and the future looking like an inextinguishable trash fire. There were liberal actions with liberal ideas too which i'm not interested in or referring to.

[Loar]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)
►




n.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

[ckaihatsu]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)
►




n.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.




No, the *content* of fascist views is *not* 'irrelevant' -- fascists, by definition, are willing to deny free-speech, and even life itself, to those of social minority groups simply because they *are* social minorities in our society. This is an active, standing *physical threat* to all of those demographics, and their political supporters (anti-fascists).

You're conflating means-with-ends, and winding up in apologetics for organized bullying behavior as a result.

A group like antifa isn't there to 'debate-out' on political principles with active fascists, it's there to *neutralize* the standing threat that fascists embody to other members of society. That's a valid strategy for dealing with such a dangerous ideology, whether in the U.S., Ukraine, or anywhere else.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.

fascism (făshˈĭzˌəm)
►




n.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.



no it isn’t fascism to shout down a bunch of fascists. Even by the definition you provided which talked about a government repressing people.

If a white nationalist rally is free speech isn’t a counter-protest also “free speech”?

Besides, the white nationalists aren’t interested in simply presenting a viewpoint, they have their conventions and whatnot for that - when they protest in public, their aim is intimidating people and confusing centrists. Essentially irl trolling at best a modern cross burning more likely.

[Loar]

Even tho there are white, brown, yellow, green, lesbian and straight in the crowd they are called white nationalists? Attacking speech with fear or violence is fascist. It is exactly what Hitler did while forming his national socialist party. I do not understand the label at all. Now a KKK rally is different. It seems massively hypocritical.

There are tons of people I do not believe anything that comes out of their mouth is positive but I would never throw bottles, urine and misc stuff at them while wearing masks.

[El_Comandante]

You do realize you're using conservative, often far-right, talking points, don't you? Comparing anti-fascist protests to Hitler, and referring to the Nazi Party as "national socialist" are usually sure signs you're dealing with a right-winger.

And even if you are a socialist, and you're correct that political violence is fascist, what does that prove? Socialists have been advocating revolutionary violence since before Marx, and we don't plan on stopping just because it's "fascist." The third world has the right to liberate itself from capitalism-imperialism by any means necessary, and you calling socialist violence "fascist" is counter-revolutionary, and counterproductive. You're either an ally of the people, and you support the masses in liberating themselves however they see fit, or you're an enemy of the people; it's as simple as that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Even tho there are white, brown, yellow, green, lesbian and straight in the crowd they are called white nationalists?If they’re supporting white nationalism, yes.


Attacking speech with fear or violence is fascist. It is exactly what Hitler did while forming his national socialist party. I do not understand the label at all. Now a KKK rally is different. It seems massively hypocritical.why is a KKK rally different? Because they call for Jews, Catholics, immigrants or blacks to “get in line” or face vigilante violence?

But Idenity Evropa preppies cheer and joke after a dude for running over a woman... is different?

Milo Y planning on releasing the names of immigrant college students to a fan base known for doxxing people online is different than brown shirts revealing Jewish owned businesses to make them targets?

I don’t consider their rallies to be free speech in the common understanding. It’s a show of force, it’s an implied threat. Why do a group of anti-immigrant NAZIs from Minnesota fly to LA for a “free speech” rally? Why did neo-NAZIs plan a march through a Jewish neighborhood?

I’m not arguing to have the government shut them down, but I do think we can and do have the ability to popularly make it known that there is a large opposition to the far right.


There are tons of people I do not believe anything that comes out of their mouth is positive but I would never throw bottles, urine and misc stuff at them while wearing masks.yeah, me too. Some people like metal or emo or licorice. They’re wrong, but have at it. Or there are countless know-it-all conservatives who talk a lot of nonsense, some of it offensive. Go for it, be an ass.

But the far right are trying to normalize attacks and terrorizing immigrants, gays, women, and the left. They are not interested in “free speech” for anyone else and so it’s a huge mistake to take them at their word on this. They are trying to establish a president for hate speech as free speech, discrimination of gays as “freedom of religion” and so on.

Online they are quite blunt about using these concepts to draw in regular conservatives while yawing liberal sacred cows (like “free speech” or “diversity” of politics) to confuse the political center.

I don’t think antifa’s tactics and the outlook of some participants political outlook are the strongest or best response to this (I think Boston showed that mass-mobilization embarrassed them and made them weak whereas steet-fights appeal to some of them or make them feel glory). BUT I do think we need to seriously confront the new far right or oppressed people and the left will be more regularly targeted by fascist orgs or vigilantes.

[Loar]

You do realize you're using conservative, often far-right, talking points, don't you? Comparing anti-fascist protests to Hitler, and referring to the Nazi Party as "national socialist" are usually sure signs you're dealing with a right-winger.

Because the NAZI's were socialist. Maybe I am just way more tolerant and understanding to others than you. I do not usually want to punch everyone who does not believe the same way I do. You can not force the world in to communism. Punching and screaming while name calling does nothing. Open dialog and education is the only thing that works. Assuming that everyone that does not like communism is fascist or white nationalists (Even calling people of color white nationalists) does nothing but keep you further from your goal.

To be honest the only way communism would ever truly exist would be an evolutionary change in the reward system. It will not happen in my life time. As soon as individuals desire the satisfaction of helping human kind as a reward for work then the world will become a better place. Until then kicking screaming and name calling gets nothing resolved. Maybe I am just WAY older and more experienced in life.

Also, try not to prejudge those around you who do not believe everything you say is 100% correct. Or maybe this is just a prejudging angry forum.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Because the NAZI's were socialist. Maybe I am just way more tolerant and understanding to others than you. I do not usually want to punch everyone who does not believe the same way I do. You can not force the world in to communism. Punching and screaming while name calling does nothing. Open dialog and education is the only thing that works. Assuming that everyone that does not like communism is fascist or white nationalists (Even calling people of color white nationalists) does nothing but keep you further from your goal.

To be honest the only way communism would ever truly exist would be an evolutionary change in the reward system. It will not happen in my life time. As soon as individuals desire the satisfaction of helping human kind as a reward for work then the world will become a better place. Until then kicking screaming and name calling gets nothing resolved. Maybe I am just WAY older and more experienced in life.

Also, try not to prejudge those around you who do not believe everything you say is 100% correct. Or maybe this is just a prejudging angry forum.

You are arguing straw-figures.

[Loar]

Straw Figures?

[Loar]

If they’re supporting white nationalism, yes.

why is a KKK rally different? Because they call for Jews, Catholics, immigrants or blacks to “get in line” or face vigilante violence?

But Idenity Evropa preppies cheer and joke after a dude for running over a woman... is different?

I believe so because the KKK actually has murdered people in the past.


Milo Y planning on releasing the names of immigrant college students to a fan base known for doxxing people online is different than brown shirts revealing Jewish owned businesses to make them targets?

Yes because Hitler threw them all in ovens.



I’m not arguing to have the government shut them down, but I do think we can and do have the ability to popularly make it known that there is a large opposition to the far right.

I do not believe attacking the cops, wearing masks, throwing urine and bottles at those who do not believe what you believe is the correct way to win anything.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Straw Figures?

Yes, no one is “attacking people for mere disagreement... college campuses are full of people promoting conservative views of the economy or history or what have you. Further I work with liberals all the time and strongly disagree with their politics and assumptions too. But unlike the alt-right nationalists, liberals and conservatives are not actively trying to make a “hot take” on diversity when they terrorize critics, release their personal information online, drive cars into crowds of protesters, drive a motorcycle through universal healthcare protest pickets. Average Republican and Democrat voters don’t aspire to be a US Golden Dawn or idolize Pinochet murdering leftists. When Republicans and Democrats voters gather, they don’t beat up people, try and surround a church, hurl slurs, march at night while chanting about stopping the Jews.

Nobody is trying to stop them due to their “speech” or because they disagree in general. It’s against their potential and desire to mobilize in the streets to act like a civilian police of... poor black folks, Latinos, any one of any race that looks vaguely middle eastern, striking teachers, leftists in general. At the same time the new far right cries about “free speech” what are their actual actions: doxxing (ie trying to silence) feminists and black celebrities or activists, campaigns to get “leftist” professors fired, an attempt to list all the immigrant or trans students names and faces on a university campus for a far right audience known for doxxing and worse, attacking people in Charlottesville and so on.

We do have to win over liberals and conservatives, but acting like the partially to confirmed new fascists are interested in free speech or discussion is to mistake an advancing enemy army for a diplomatic envoy. There are no shared goals that can be discussed, it would be a conversation with the qualities of a lunch meeting between wolves and lambs.

[Loar]

I never defended any side. I was just giving my opinion on the new fascist organization sponsored by the evil hate mongol George Soros ANTIFA. Most of those kids are paid to be there and the majority of them have no clue whats going on in politics or the world. They are trying to beat up people for money. The vast majority of them are fake. In no way was I defending any opposition that was doing the same thing.

You have to live with people. If every time you did not like something you punch it in the mouth you get nowhere. It is basically a selfish temporary fix.

Just like if someone said a racist word to another person and that person punched him in the mouth for it there is always a bigger problem than initially. The individual that used the racist word does not change for the better. They get worse.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I never defended any side. I was just giving my opinion on the new fascist organization sponsored by the evil hate mongol George Soros ANTIFA. Most of those kids are paid to be there and the majority of them have no clue whats going on in politics or the world. They are trying to beat up people for money. The vast majority of them are fake. In no way was I defending any opposition that was doing the same thing.

You have to live with people. If every time you did not like something you punch it in the mouth you get nowhere. It is basically a selfish temporary fix.

Just like if someone said a racist word to another person and that person punched him in the mouth for it there is always a bigger problem than initially. The individual that used the racist word does not change for the better. They get worse.

Lol, you’ve swallowed too much conservative gruel. A) Antifa isn’t even an organization let alone a “fascist” one. B) George Soros - lol! C) paid? I’m owed back wages then... seriously, if anyone going to anti-fascist rallies is paid, it’s probably some under cover cops.

Again - anti-fascism is not about stoping them from speaking because someone doesn’t like it - it’s about counter-organizing against people seeking actual harm against immigrants, the poor, protesters, women and the left.

Someone saying a slur is the wrong analogy... more like punching someone in the face for trying to hang a noose outside a black church and claiming it’s “just free speech”.

I think Boston was the best example of a way to go about it, but my criticisms of antifa are about the effectiveness of those methods for stopping fascists.

[BIXX]

I can't figure out where I can pick up my sorosbucks

[Ele'ill]

fascist 'free speech' is fascist organizing for the immediate restriction of 'free speech' and freedom generally for most of our species and fascists have already engaged in this specific violence in several ways, and then called for more, with a line between the 'soft-right' and 'neo-nazi's' in some situations having never been an actual line or is one that is blurring more and more. Same with the line between 'The State', and fascists, here and abroad.

i think most people who get hurt because they said a racist word will not repeat the behavior that got them hurt, not in the same way at least (physically, financially, to some extent arguably PR). Without getting into the ridiculous discussion of what violence is, that some anarchists like to peddle hopefully for intellectual cool points and not because they actually believe it, fascist organizing calling for actual fascist actions against students and people in the surrounding community was essentially punched in the mouth because the community had to defend itself.

lol how can you be surprised that when there's calls for violence against a lot of people that those threatened will defend themselves and each other from being attacked or violently displaced

[Loar]

Well, I still believe violence is not the way to change others opinions. And someone speaking about "freedom" is not the same as hanging a noose outside a church.

I think half of you guys are uneducated and blindly following false ideology or socialist instead of true left-wing communist. This is why I do not like associating to either left/right/center. Because they are all the same way. Too much ignorance and hatred for everything but your twin. This is why nothing good will ever come with the people of the world. One side only believes they are right and the others are wrong and vice versa on the other side. Everyone calls each other names. Each side is massively arrogant about their cause. Everyone wants to punch everyone.

Seems like history just keeps on repeating itself. One wants socialism which takes corporate warlords power and gives it to political warlords. One wants capitalism which takes the power from political warlords and gives to corporate warlords. People attempt communism which ends up exactly like socialism because people in power are always going to end up corrupt. Then when a countries political system wants more they wage war. Then we raise ignorant children to regurgitate the same endless circle over and over.

Hate is hate. No matter which direction it goes. Against a certain political ideology or someone who looks different. One side calling anyone who desires smaller government a fascist and one side calling anyone who desires a larger government fascist.


It is like everyone is calling everyone fascist. I am assuming this is because it is the only evil label that everyone knows. Is it because Italy, Spain, Japan and Germany were fascist in World War 2? If you look at the word fascism... Every government is fascist. Dictator, socioeconomic control, suppression of opposition through terror and censorship.

For some reason today people associate them self as a left-wing but they are socialist. Socialism is NOT left-wing.

fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm)n (sometimes capital)1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, suchas German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with anauthoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism



Karl Marx thought that the path to pure communism you have to become socialist first. So apparently he believed that under a conservative government, which is smaller where more power is amongst the people but controlled by corporations, they should give the power to the government. Then apparently some angel that now rules would systematically create pure communism. This will never happen and I believe he is dead wrong. Path to pure communism goes the other way. From socialism to conservationism to communism. Gradual reduction in the power of the state.

The only difference between socialism and conservatism is who has the power. Neither really cares about the people.

This is what everyone fights over. I could care less if someone is racist or hates women. Hatred on both sides only keeps building hatred. Hatred with added hatred does not end up with peace and love.

So continue calling everyone white nationalists, fascist or whatever the new name will be tomorrow. The other side will do the same. Keep desiring to throw glass, urine and anything else you find. This will never end and nothing good will ever come of this world. War war and more war will be the only result. Loss of lives and destruction to the Earth. All for a desire in a shift of power.

[Ele'ill]

Well, I still believe violence is not the way to change others opinions.

It's not about changing their opinions, it's about stopping fascists from organizing and from being comfortable being fascists and by using violence because sometimes violence is necessary and is the only thing that will work.


And someone speaking about "freedom" is not the same as hanging a noose outside a church.

i don't know what this means


I think half of you guys are uneducated and blindly following false ideology or socialist instead of true left-wing communist. This is why I do not like associating to either left/right/center. Because they are all the same way. Too much ignorance and hatred for everything but your twin. This is why nothing good will ever come with the people of the world. One side only believes they are right and the others are wrong and vice versa on the other side. Everyone calls each other names. Each side is massively arrogant about their cause. Everyone wants to punch everyone.

its about people in revolt against conditions of life that have been set without their consent and with no escape from the conditions, and then there's fascists organizing openly again, for violence against students and others, and yeah direct action gets the goods, violence works, hail satan

all the sides are fighting one another because it is that type of war, what are you complicit in, is arrogance or ignorance an acceptable out, i don't think so, certainly not conversationally


Seems like history just keeps on repeating itself. One wants socialism which takes corporate warlords power and gives it to political warlords. One wants capitalism which takes the power from political warlords and gives to corporate warlords. People attempt communism which ends up exactly like socialism because people in power are always going to end up corrupt. Then when a countries political system wants more they wage war. Then we raise ignorant children to regurgitate the same endless circle over and over.

yeah you should read about communism because there's a bunch of non-transitional communist and anarchist tendencies that you might find interesting

[Loar]

So militantly organizing to forcibly suppress your opposition is what Antifa is. But it is not Fascist because they are forcibly suppressing fascists. This is what you guys believe? Even tho it is the total definition of a fascist organization it is not fascist because its ok to forcibly suppress people you do not like? Which is exactly what fascists do.

[ckaihatsu]

So militantly organizing to forcibly suppress your opposition is what Antifa is. But it is not Fascist because they are forcibly suppressing fascists. This is what you guys believe? Even tho it is the total definition of a fascist organization it is not fascist because its ok to forcibly suppress people you do not like? Which is exactly what fascists do.


This is some elementary-school stuff -- remember this -- ?





Isn't shutting down speech fascist? Antifa was shutting down speech of opposing political views. Whether or not those views are correct or wrong are irrelevant. Individuals using terror to suppress another's voice is fascism. Antifa suppresses opposition with violence.





No, the *content* of fascist views is *not* 'irrelevant' -- fascists, by definition, are willing to deny free-speech, and even life itself, to those of social minority groups simply because they *are* social minorities in our society. This is an active, standing *physical threat* to all of those demographics, and their political supporters (anti-fascists).

You're conflating means-with-ends, and winding up in apologetics for organized bullying behavior as a result.

A group like antifa isn't there to 'debate-out' on political principles with active fascists, it's there to *neutralize* the standing threat that fascists embody to other members of society. That's a valid strategy for dealing with such a dangerous ideology, whether in the U.S., Ukraine, or anywhere else.


In other words, you're trying to imply *equivalence* between the fascist and anti-fascist positions. Fence-sitter much -- ? Do you see antifa types going around and terrorizing regular people when they're not doing their antifa stuff against actual *fascists* -- ? No, because if there's no active on-the-streets fascist threat then antifas are *not* threatening, as fascists are whenever they get their way.

Got it now -- ? One group is *dangerous* and *hazardous*, while the other isn't -- or, rather, is dangerous only to those who are dangerous to the public at large. Remember Heather Heyer -- ?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally#Vehicular_attack_and_homicid e

[Loar]

You mean like Craig Paddock?

[BIXX]

Gulag now

[Jimmie Higgins]

You mean like Craig Paddock?

I don’t follow. What or who is like Greg Paddock?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Loar,

Do you think fascism is a threat or just a different opinion?

Do you think groups like Identity Evropa or people like Richard Spenser are fascists?

If people are claiming free speech but organizing to get left-wing professors fired and get immigrants removed or bullied out of universities, is it really “free speech” that they care about or just a pretext?

How do you propose people defend themselves or reduce the chances of a fascist movement developing in the US or France or India or wherever?

[Loar]

Loar,

Do you think fascism is a threat or just a different opinion?

Fascism is horrible.


Do you think groups like Identity Evropa or people like Richard Spenser are fascists?

Richard Spencer is a redneck white supremest that is a registered Democrat. He has the right to speak but its all crap. Identity Evropa is seems to be like little Hitlers. Not all rallies were these people.


If people are claiming free speech but organizing to get left-wing professors fired and get immigrants removed or bullied out of universities, is it really “free speech” that they care about or just a pretext?

Left wing professors that talked about cops should be dead? That professor? Professors should only teach the curriculum. No more brainwashing. On both sides. They should all be fired.


How do you propose people defend themselves or reduce the chances of a fascist movement developing in the US or France or India or wherever?

Education. I do not mean school brainwashing. There will always be people who oppose each other. Have you ever been able to sit down with a conservative and been able to have a civil conversation without you or him getting angry? This should happen way more often than not. From what you guys are implying we basically need to murder those who oppose communism. That would end up with no more people on Earth that desire communism because there is a massive population difference in those who desire communism and those who do not. And say if even 10% of the USA desire communism can you really force 90% to surrender to it? There will always be fascism a-holes. They are probably 10% of the population also. Will you convince the other 80% to like you more than them if you act the same as them? To conquer fascism you will need to somehow convince the other 80% that you are not fascist and point those who are fascist out. Be civil in your conflicts. Be the better man.... This is not something you can do only because Trump is president. Obama was a socialist. Bush was a socialist. Bill was a socialist. Berny is a socialist. Hillary is fucking crazy. None of those give a shit about the people of the world. Now the world thinks that Antifa is a bunch of cry baby millennials that live in mommy's basement with nothing to do. So they dress up in masks and scare people that are republicans. Political zealots.

- - - Updated - - -


I don’t follow. What or who is like Greg Paddock?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Paddock

[BIXX]

My dearest George,

Today we gulaged Loar. We need more sorosbucks to continue doing this because the gulags are getting really full. We haven't seen a sign of your money in years, and we'd really appreciate it if you could get back to us about our unpaid wages.

All the best,
BIXX

[Jimmie Higgins]

My dearest George,

Today we gulaged Loar. We need more sorosbucks to continue doing this because the gulags are getting really full. We haven't seen a sign of your money in years, and we'd really appreciate it if you could get back to us about our unpaid wages.

All the best,
BIXX

PS send $$ by overnight wire. It’s cold in mother’s basement and there’s nothing to do. Need participation trophies for our anchor babies.

PPS Hail Obama and his glorious death panels.

[Ele'ill]

dressing up in masks and scaring republicans would be pretty fun

[Loar]

You can be as naive as you want. When you adopt fascist behavior you are fascist. These forums are fascist individuals living some dream that they are an opposition to what they believe is fascism. So you adopt fascist behavior to fight a stupid idea that everyone else in the world besides you are fascist. You guys are what is wrong with this world. Not a rally filled with black, white, brown, gay, straight, atheist, jews, muslims and christians. You can call a bunch of blacks, browns, jews, gay, straight, muslim christians racist all you want. You are the ignorant racist prejudice thugs of the world.

These forums are not left. They are alt right fascists.



yournewswire.com/antifa-payment-george-soros/

shadowproof.com/2017/02/25/professional-anarchist-soros-trump/

orwellianchronicle.net/2017/04/23/antifa-george-soros-and-the-fight-for-western-civilization/

thewashingtonstandard.com/george-soros-funded-terrorist-group-antifa-plans-make-us-ungovernable/

dailycaller.com/2017/07/31/the-anti-fascist-fascist/

medium.com/@Sard0n1ca/how-soros-came-to-own-or-fund-antifa-is-irrelevant-to-this-discussion-b53a5b9e3283

truthfeed.com/soros-funded-group-gave-50k-to-radical-group-antifa-who-provoked-berkeley-riot/50542/

intellihub.com/did-billionaire-leftist-george-soros-break-his-promise-to-antifa/

pastebin.com/Z4TXhyQS

[ckaihatsu]

You mean like Craig Paddock?


It's apples-and-oranges -- what does the Las Vegas shooter have to do with political issues -- ?

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's apples-and-oranges -- what does the Las Vegas shooter have to do with political issues -- ?

It’s relevant because... right after the shooting, the alt-right circulated articles that he was an antifa or BLM supporter. The mainstream news briefly took the bait and then retracted. But Loar seems to get their news of the world from conservative hype machines and didn’t see the retraction? Just a guess.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You can be as naive as you want. When you adopt fascist behavior you are fascist. These forums are fascist individuals living some dream that they are an opposition to what they believe is fascism. So you adopt fascist behavior to fight a stupid idea that everyone else in the world besides you are fascist. You guys are what is wrong with this world. Not a rally filled with black, white, brown, gay, straight, atheist, jews, muslims and christians. You can call a bunch of blacks, browns, jews, gay, straight, muslim christians racist all you want. You are the ignorant racist prejudice thugs of the world.

These forums are not left. They are alt right fascists.



yournewswire.com/antifa-payment-george-soros/

shadowproof.com/2017/02/25/professional-anarchist-soros-trump/

orwellianchronicle.net/2017/04/23/antifa-george-soros-and-the-fight-for-western-civilization/

thewashingtonstandard.com/george-soros-funded-terrorist-group-antifa-plans-make-us-ungovernable/

dailycaller.com/2017/07/31/the-anti-fascist-fascist/

medium.com/@Sard0n1ca/how-soros-came-to-own-or-fund-antifa-is-irrelevant-to-this-discussion-b53a5b9e3283

truthfeed.com/soros-funded-group-gave-50k-to-radical-group-antifa-who-provoked-berkeley-riot/50542/

intellihub.com/did-billionaire-leftist-george-soros-break-his-promise-to-antifa/

pastebin.com/Z4TXhyQS

“You guys...” if Loar was sincere, then they’d see this thread and realize that antifa tactics are an open debate on this thread and on the Left in general.

I am a sympathetic critic of antifa. I think Street-fights are not the strongest way to stop the alt-right from becoming a fascist movement for Marxists or anarchists. I think Boston, a mass mobilization where the far right was humiliated and exposed as the unpopular scum that they are as thousands surrounded their small numbers, is the ideal tactic atm. This has the same effect as physical confrontation, but it shows the popular weight behind opposing the fascists and draws regular liberals closer to the left. We get stronger in addition to letting fascist know they are opposed and vastly outnumbered.

BUT the one thing “we” all generally agree on is that if the alt-right succeeded in building a fascist movement, then that would be a real physical threat to any BLM protest or activist, immigrants, trans-folks, women, the Left, striking workers etc.

Antifa and I agree that Fox News is not the same threat as the alt-right even though both have “disgusting” views. That Nazi online forums are not the same as NAZIs trying to mobilize a threatening physical presence in our communities etc.

But Loar seems to think everyone is a fascist or socialist from Bush to Obama to RevLeft posters with no distinction. They also seem to think that disagreeing or getting in a fight is the same as a clampdown on free-speech. Yet, antifa would never call on the government to repress the fascists (for ideological and practical reasons) while the alt-right and even liberals call on the government to repress antifa, BLM etc. Loar takes the alt-right’s claims of free-speech at face value even though they doxx feminists and left-wing activists to threaten and silence them.

Bad trolling is the most plausible explanation for Loar’s argument. But I could be wrong.

[Loar]

Well you are more pleasant to speak with. Alt-rights political views are bad. Antifa's presence in Boston was a good thing. Although the massive amount of cops might have kept it pleasant. In Boston it was more like a "Hey mother fucker we are watching you. We are against anything that is demeaning towards any type of person. We out number you."

For the life of me I can not understand the thought process that because someone looks different or has a different religion they are beneath anyone. Don't get me wrong though. I prejudge by appearance. It is just something I have developed throughout my years. But I do not hate because of the prejudge.

All mass media sucks. They are no longer desiring to give us the news they give us their political opinion of what is going on. I would love a news outlet that listed only facts of events and no political affiliation.

I think anyone taking any militant aggression towards those that have different beliefs to silence them are fascists. And BLM chanting kill white cops is not something I think is a good thing. There was a BLM march that took over a LGBT march. That was wrong. I am not a fan of BLM. Some of the organizations are good. Some are bad. Of course that is the same with any unorganized movement.

I always liked Gandhi way more than Malcolm X.

[BIXX]

Well you are more pleasant to speak with. Alt-rights political views are bad. Antifa's presence in Boston was a good thing. Although the massive amount of cops might have kept it pleasant. In Boston it was more like a "Hey mother fucker we are watching you. We are against anything that is demeaning towards any type of person. We out number you."

For the life of me I can not understand the thought process that because someone looks different or has a different religion they are beneath anyone. Don't get me wrong though. I prejudge by appearance. It is just something I have developed throughout my years. But I do not hate because of the prejudge.

All mass media sucks. They are no longer desiring to give us the news they give us their political opinion of what is going on. I would love a news outlet that listed only facts of events and no political affiliation.

I think anyone taking any militant aggression towards those that have different beliefs to silence them are fascists. And BLM chanting kill white cops is not something I think is a good thing. There was a BLM march that took over a LGBT march. That was wrong. I am not a fan of BLM. Some of the organizations are good. Some are bad. Of course that is the same with any unorganized movement.

I always liked Gandhi way more than Malcolm X.
so i am struggling between wanting to point out the obvious trolling and wanting to ask you if you are the stupidest person in the god damn world

[Loar]

I am assuming you ran out of things to say but feel like you have to reply. So the only thing you could think of was calling me the "stupidest person in the god damn world". Of course anyone with different beliefs are stupid.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe didn’t run out of things to say, maybe just speechless.

The false-equivalencies are kind of shocking.

If BLM got what their stated goals are what would be the result? Cops not shooting or profiling people, police reform and at the more “militant” end, disbanded police.

If Antifa reached their stated goal what would be the result? The far-right is unable to intimidate people by marching through communities threatening immigrants, women, the left, etc... the anti-speech nightmare society that was the US in 2015!

If the alt-right got their stated goals: trans people would be silenced, immigrants removed from universities, date-rape is not “real rape”, vigilantes can shoot black people for threatening activities like playing music in a car. At the militant end: “white ethno-state” which would require mass patrician or ethnic cleansing.

There is no real equivalency despite what the liberal and conservative press claims.

So the question of punching NAZIs is really a tactical question of how do we prevent a movement like that from gaining ground. I don’t think one-on-one confrontation is the strongest tool in the shed, but it’s a strategy disagreement. There is no equivalency between Antifa or BLM or Occupy and the alt-right. There isn’t even equivalency between conservatives and the alt-right even if some views might overlap.

[TheRightfulEmperor]

Funny Che Guevara would say that, though nothing against him.

The main goal of the antifa movement, is to show opposition to the new far right movements. As the far right movement is obviously backed by the elites(then of course the government), because it widens the divide, of course we should fight back! If we didnt, the white worker would easily fall prey to their propaganda. However, with antifa, it shows the workers there is an alternative.