Freedom

[Soul Keeper]

(My english sucks.. I hope thats not a problem)

What is freedom to you?
Do you think your country is a free country?
Mine it's not (i live in Brasil, or Brazil)
Because poor people have no acess to good hospitals, education, they cant even pay for a bus ticket... In the Major Cities, there are people that get "stuck"in some areas of the city, having to look for jobs nearby because cant pay for any type of Public Transportation.
Still there is people working in conditions of slavery.
In Rio de Janeiro. some members of the Military police of Rio are STEALING tourist!!! I mean... WTF IS THAT?!


And, after all that... there are some right-wing assholes talking bullshit about Cuba....

[SittingBull47]

freedom to me is the ability to go/live/ be anywhere i want with no restrictions or barriers, and just have a peaceful existence. People should not be questioned about their lifestyles. This is freedom. My country (USA) is better with freedoms than some, but nobody is truely free. There's bondage everywhere, anywhere.

[Soul Keeper]

SittingBull47.. I agreed with you, man. that is freedom for me too... but freedom ain't for free (ironic huh?) and not everyone can buy it. And I mean "this" freedom, because, as you said: "no one is truly free"...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Freedom for me is the freedom to do something of my own will, uninfluenced by others.
Freedom for me is the freedom to kill, rape, cheat and steal. I already have that freedom. I could go next door, rape my neighbour's wife, beat the husband and kids' skulls in, and take all their money and valuables. I wouldn't get away with it of course. With freedom comes responsibilities amd consequences.

Until you can be physically forced to do something, you are in absolute freedom. No amount of laws or litigation will physically stop you from doing something, it is your own self-restraint.
The reason I'm not leaving my neighbours' house with a sack over my shoulder and hard-on is because I can't accept the legal and social consequences. (I don't want to go prison or be shunned by decent people for the rest of my life.) And so therefore I stop myself.

Remember it is the chains in your head that are the heaviest.

[SittingBull47]

i try to steer clear of one line replies, but i must say that's a good quote. I'm gonna borrow that if you don't mind.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I believe freedom is unattainable.

My view of freedom is a kind of intellectual freedom, free as of all prejudice, false knowledge and disctractions.

[che's long lost daughter]

freedom for me is being able to what I what I want to do, without restrictions, without people telling me what should be done, as long as I do not step on someone else's personhood, and being able to exercise my rights and I think this applies to just anybody.

[che's long lost daughter]

Originally posted by Soul [email protected] 7 2004, 10:13 PM

What is freedom to you?
Do you think your country is a free country?
Mine it's not (i live in Brasil, or Brazil)
Because poor people have no acess to good hospitals, education, they cant even pay for a bus ticket... In the Major Cities, there are people that get "stuck"in some areas of the city, having to look for jobs nearby because cant pay for any type of Public Transportation.
Still there is people working in conditions of slavery.
In Rio de Janeiro. some members of the Military police of Rio are STEALING tourist!!! I mean... WTF IS THAT?!


And, after all that... there are some right-wing assholes talking bullshit about Cuba....
I live in the Philippines and the situation of my country and yours is very similar. I think when you are free, you get to exercise your rights. One right of a person is Health and would you believe it that the government allots less than 5% of the annual budget for it while most of the budegt goes to military development? ANother right is to have a home but millions of my people roam around the streets without a home to call their own. The place they call home are carts parked in sidewalks, spaces under the bridges, or just any place where slumber catches them.

Plus, with our President being a slave for Bu$h, WTF is freedom.

[Individual]

I don't know what freedom is.

I have never attained complete freedom.

Sort of what Geist said, I believe freedom is unattainable. There is no way to have complete freedom and be able to keep society in order. Complete freedom is not a desirable thing to have in society.

Is there freedom in my country? I'm not going to be a selfish bastard and say that there is not. However are my freedoms pulled from me each new day? Yes. Do I have all of the freedoms I wish I could have? Hell no. However there is more freedoms in my country than there are in most.

However, like I said; I would not wish to live in a place where there was complete freedom.

[shyguywannadie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 12:43 PM
Freedom for me is the freedom to do something of my own will, uninfluenced by others.
Freedom for me is the freedom to kill, rape, cheat and steal. I already have that freedom. I could go next door, rape my neighbour's wife, beat the husband and kids' skulls in, and take all their money and valuables. I wouldn't get away with it of course. With freedom comes responsibilities amd consequences.

Until you can be physically forced to do something, you are in absolute freedom. No amount of laws or litigation will physically stop you from doing something, it is your own self-restraint.
The reason I'm not leaving my neighbours' house with a sack over my shoulder and hard-on is because I can't accept the legal and social consequences. (I don't want to go prison or be shunned by decent people for the rest of my life.) And so therefore I stop myself.

Remember it is the chains in your head that are the heaviest.
Though would you kill for communism? would you risk going to joil for communism?

[Comrade Zeke]

Freedom for is to able to vote.....free fair elections...have rights the goverment can't just arrest me. Freedom to say whatever the fuck I want...where I want...eat what I want to eat go where I want to go....start my own buiness no offense I am Democratic Socailist. Have the prower to go fuck you to the president of my country...sadly I can't yet...but if I could poor Bushy would be running scared. Freedom too make my own future. But I also want the goverment to help out its people to provide for them....the people should be free not the goverment!!!!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

free fair elections

No such thing, the electoral system is a dead end and a free fair one is a bourgeois fantasy.


Freedom to say whatever the fuck I want

No can do. I can't let you go around saying that all the k!kes and n!ggers are subhuman and should be shot.


start my own buiness no offense I am Democratic Socailist

Perhaps you should lose the 'comrade' part of your name... you certainly don't think like any comrade of mine.


Though would you kill for communism? would you risk going to joil for communism?

In the event of a proletarian revolution, yes. But otherwise risking your life 'for the cause' is a waste of time.
You're usually told to risk your life by the party leader from behind the barricades.

[Soul Keeper]

"Freedom for me is to able to vote.....free fair elections..."

Comrade Zeke,
Here in Brasil you can vote. But in who? after all, you dont really care, you are too busy trying to feed your family, working all day, 7 days a week, so that in the end of the month you get 200 reais= about 50 dollars, maybe less.

[Comrade Zeke]

lol as I said I am not a big full Communist as i usta be. But I still want all these poor starving people to have rights just like these filthy rich bastards. And to quote who the fuck would go around saying Goddam the Nigg*ers that is just wrong! Brazil if it got its act together could be a world power.

[Palmares]

For me, freedom is 'free will'.

Do we, or even I, have free will?

For the most part I believe we/I do, however, various people (Dubya for example) use their freedom against other people's freedom. I believe Jean-Paul Sartre had a word/term for this, but at the moment it eludes me.

Like another person posted, it is responsibility that is the key.

[che's long lost daughter]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 05:28 AM
Freedom for is to able to vote.....free fair elections...
yes, you have the freedom to vote but a fair and free election is non-existent, it's sad but that is one truth that is very very hard to change

[Hiero]

http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/jur_5/numbe...freedom.ju5.txt (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/jur_5/numbers/freedom.ju5.txt)

Jurassic 5 song on freedom its good.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I dont believe in absolute free will but within the system I hang on to I have a limited sense of free will.

I am under the influence of the wests eastern philosophers at the moments...

[Trissy]

My idea of freedom stems from the general existential notion that freedom is the ability to choose between two or more options. As Sartre put it our existence proceeds our essence and so we are confronted with choices in this life unlike animal and objects whose essence proceeds their existence.

Basically I agree with the idea that we are totally free and that denial of our freedom is to act in bad faith (which can be seen as perhaps the biggest weakness mankind possesses). Freedom is an exilarating feeling as well as one that fills us with anxiety, fear and dread because with freedom ultimately comes responsibility. It is primarily on this basis that I see Existentialism and Christainity (or any other religion to be fair) as being opposed to one another.

[kingbee]

i also think freedom is just about unattainable. intellectual freedom, freedom of speech (and that means to be allowed to be non-pc),etc.

i suppose "nirvana" is the ideal freedom. that is, if it was true.

[Soul Keeper]

So, if freedom is "free will"
then where exists FEAR doesnt exist freedom.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 12:43 PM
(I don't want to go prison or be shunned by decent people for the rest of my life.) And so therefore I stop myself.
I like that the only reasons you wouldnt rape or muder someone is because you might go to prision or not be spoken to by people...Has absolutly nothing to do with the fact that it's morally reprehensable to force yourself on someone and take away somebodies life...nothing at all!

[Soul Keeper]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 13 2004, 06:19 AM
Brazil if it got its act together could be a world power.
:rolleyes: that's a big IF

[it is time to arise]

Orwell said that " freedom is the ability to say that 2+2=4 if that is granted all else follows" freedom is the ability to be to walk along with out having someone abuse you for the way you look or what you belive in. I come from a small contry town in australia were most people are drunken racist idoits and as such i do not have the freedom to not be racist or to think differently without being harrassed and abused.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I like that the only reasons you wouldnt rape or muder someone is because you might go to prision or not be spoken to by people...Has absolutly nothing to do with the fact that it's morally reprehensable to force yourself on someone and take away somebodies life...nothing at all!

Morals do not exist. They are man made abstract rules used to control others.
The reason I do not do such things is because I wouldn't like the consquences... and I'd feel bad about it because of the social pressure.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Read Nietzsche's On the History of Moral Feeling's in Beyond Good and Evil, addresses the above perfectly.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Is it available on ye intarweb or do I have to buy it?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

http://www.churchofsatan.org/hah_div2.html

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by che&#39;s long lost daughter+Mar 13 2004, 07:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (che&#39;s long lost daughter @ Mar 13 2004, 07:26 AM)
Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 05:28 AM
Freedom for is to able to vote.....free fair elections...
yes, you have the freedom to vote but a fair and free election is non-existent, it&#39;s sad but that is one truth that is very very hard to change [/b]
free fair elections? ha&#33;
Ever heard of the parable of the hungry man (crawling to vote given fullblown democracy, but having no food but die before he voted.)

now, that is freedom? come on.. man

[Comrade Zeke]

TO Soul Keeper

WHAT DO you mean by IF??? Brazil is a good country but if it could pay off all its debts it could become a world power.


Lol I still beilive even though I don&#39;t like my country that much that it is more free then anyone else.

[ComradeRed]

Brazil still has to deal with the pirate problem too...

[Soul Keeper]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 20 2004, 05:13 AM
Brazil is a good country but if it could pay off all its debts it could become a world power.



Man, I know Brasil is a good country, I love my country. But, We are paying all of ours debts for decades now. And in the last 8 years I must say that the governament did a excellent job, but, our debts just keep increasing...


We already have pay all of our debts, 15X&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Neelie The Great]

freedom to me is that I can wake up in the morning and I can do whatever the hell I want

[capatilist dude]

freedom would only work in a world where there was not politcal boundarys nor political leaders a world for the people but only if this is what the people wanted otherwise this would also not be freedom like todays world opressed people worldwide. I mean in elections you can not vote to have leader and to govern your own affairs

[God of Imperia]

Can you? Then tell me what elections are about. It&#39;s not the fault of the elections but those who run for president ... I believe I got a lot of freedom (proove: see me typing), I&#39;m not sure it would be smart to give me more :)

[Soul Keeper]

Do you wish to be free?
it isn&#39;t Wise hope for something like that
Deep inside, all you want is to be happy&#33;

We should fight for a World of equals&#33;

[Umoja]

To be free you&#39;d first need to ascend above all human limitations, because limitations inhibit freedom. A blind person can&#39;t see whatever he wants. Then after you&#39;ve done that, you&#39;d need to ascend above all universal concerns, because an existance restricted by time and space can never be unlimited.

So, Transhumanistic thinking is the way to go.

[bombeverything]

Absolute freedom cannot exist.

Freedom from want.

Freedom to make our own decisions (as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others).

That would be a good start :).

[bombeverything]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 12:27 PM

I like that the only reasons you wouldnt rape or muder someone is because you might go to prision or not be spoken to by people...Has absolutly nothing to do with the fact that it&#39;s morally reprehensable to force yourself on someone and take away somebodies life...nothing at all&#33;

Morals do not exist. They are man made abstract rules used to control others.
The reason I do not do such things is because I wouldn&#39;t like the consquences... and I&#39;d feel bad about it because of the social pressure.

What we consider moral or immoral depends on what we learn from our social environment. We are not innately egoistic.

[God of Imperia]

I believe we all have some basic feelings like that it is wrong to take another man&#39;s life without any purpose, if you rape someone this is mostly because you can&#39;t really think straight anymore, you&#39;re blinded by lust or drugs or alochol or a mix. There is a huge cliff between thinking about raping someone and doing it, many think about it, some actually do it.

[cubist]

death is freedom in its true form, no body no restrictions, and no i am not suicidal.

[The Rotten One]

Freedom is the abilty to take actions that may be reprehensible to some but cause no harm without fear of negative consequence, and the USA is hardly free.

[God of Imperia]

Real freedom is doing what you want, where you want, when you want. But this is not possible, we all know that. So the closest to real freedom is our mind, we can think about doing things when we want, where we want. Also, you should have to freedom to go where-ever you want to go, you should be able to say whatever you want and I think I&#39;ve summarised most primairy freedoms.

[Nas]

with liberty and justice for all.................. (Pledge of Allegiance)


I agree , Freedom and justice have to go together ,
you cant just have the freedom to kill someone and keep on going like nothing happen


Ps: USA is not a good example of Freedom and Justice

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Neelie The [email protected] 21 2004, 10:19 PM
freedom to me is that I can wake up in the morning and I can do whatever the hell I want
hell is the place for you, and p.s. i love your signature, but what you said made you worse than G.W. Bush.

[Soul Keeper]

i came back from a trip to cuba..
man, people there love fidel, what you hear and see in movies etc is all bullshit. People, including youngpeople live happy and (check this out) are proud of the election system.

Fuck those who say crap about Cuba, if theres a country that people anint free, thats a poor country&#33;

poor people aint free people&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Soul Keeper]

hey guys. I&#39;m back and i have a new question for you . It is really that important to be free? Are you sure? think about it. When your an teenager you don&#39;t have freedom that you want, you go to parties but your parents never let you do this, do that, etc... that suxx, right?

but now you are an made man. are you free? Can you really do what you want? off course not. because you have responsabilities to your work, to your country. You can&#39;t just quit all to have fun. no you cannot. is that really bad? i dont think so. i think is necessary. freedom don&#39;t exist. and what we think we have as freedom is something negative.

stop trying to be free, try to be happy.

because in a socialist world people aren&#39;t free to do what they want, and that&#39;s a very good thing.

[apathy maybe]

You should be free to do anything you want, so long as it doesn&#39;t impact on the freedoms of others.

This includes (in no partucular order),
freedom to say whatever you want
freedom to believe anything you want
freedom to do anything you want with other consenting adults (with children it gets a bit more difficult) (except for things that will be bad for society (such as wreaking cars or buildings))
freedom basicily to do anything that doesn&#39;t hurt another. Including walking around naked, fucking in a park (but not on a busy road) and killing yourself.

[fuerzasocialista]

Freedom is doing what I want to do without ever hurting another Human Being or damaging any property and so forth. Doing the things that I want to do without ever having to worry about harsh critisism from people that don&#39;t agree with my ideology.

Pretty much what apathy said....

[(A)PBDS]

I dont even believe in free will, if we are products of our social environment, our "choices" are not choices, they are responces that we would repeat every time if given other chances.

We have an illusion of free will, but are really just following a path created by our conditions. Almost liberating and imprisoning us at the same time. :) :(

[Gnosis]

Freedom is to me a concept only.
The concept of freedom is meaningless.
Where is freedom?
What is freedom?
How, why, when is freedom?
What is slavery, prison, rape, torcure, hell, constraint, chains, shackles, bars, rope, boundary?

I have seen that, I have been that, I have been behind bars, locked in a cell, held back by limitations of the body and the mind, but was I not free all the while?

Am I more free now than I was when I was "not"?

Freedom?

I don&#39;t know.

Is love freedom?

Is freedom an absence of everything?

Is nothing free?

I do not think "freedom" is or is not anything at all, but everything at all.

I think restraints are the ultimate freedom.

The freedom to be limited.

The freedom to be expansion but be not expanded.

Infinite limitation is the ultimate freedom.

[Plato]

Choice. In the end is freedom not one&#39;s ability to exert the power and meaning behind this world? The ability to come to a decision and take the path which they believe is right.

[Gnosis]

The ability to choose is the ability of the conscious.

Choice is sacred as is consciousness.

I know I may go in any direction I should choose, and I know I may call this choice freedom from limitation.

My mind and heart may go and take me so far as I may concieve, no further.

My only limitation is myself in relation to my environment.

However, limitation is infinite.

I am infinite.

I may concieve of the entire universe if I so set my mind and heart to the task.

It is a matter of consciousness, for it is a matter of opinion and opinion is a matter of consciousness.

Perception and perspective are a matter of consciousness.

And what is truely the freedom of this life time is knowing that since limitation is infinite, then it does not exist.

There is no limitation because there is always limitation.

Everything is limited.

Limited in relation to its surroundings.

Everything is reletively limited.

And in so being, nothing is limited.

Change is stability, without change nothing is stable, without stability, balance, harmony, nothing may exist.

If one wheel was to cease revolution, all revolution would cease and the universal consciousness would cease to be, and as a result, the entire universe would cease to be.

For nothing is without consciousness.

Space and time exist only in relation to each other, and in that way they are both limited and infinite, for nither one can be destroyed, but if either one was not exist then neither would the other.

That is the nature of this paradoxal universe.

The only way to be "free", which is to say infinitly limited, is to be as conscious as possible and to experience as much of the universe as possible.

We are free to be limited in any way we may concieve.

What the limitation depends on is our ability to concieve of and activate our fullest potential what we believe is our true nature or destiny.

One&#39;s fullest potential is limited only by the way in which one views oneself in relation to the environment and the symbols one finds and gives meaning to therein.

One is limited only to the extent that one believes he is limited.

Freedom is infinite limitation.

Forever expanding and yet forever limited.

[John Dory]

right now, freedom is just THE goal.

[Wasted7]

This is a very complex question I beleive there are degrees of freedom because true freedom is impossible however it is hard to determine how much freedom people should have and how they use that freedom.

[idealisticcommie]

I live in the United States. I am not free. I am not free to hold to my belief structure and religion publicly without suffering financial and social repercussion. (I am a Buddhist and a Marxist). I am not free to engage in labor without having to choose between being an oppressor or one of the oppressed. :angry:

[Martyr]

Freedom represents for me is having peace for ones self. Freedom for me is employment for all to bring in a well earned experience and dollar to feed himself or herself and their families so they never lack proper discipline and experinece in life. Freedom is knowing that one is never in danger of anything.

[Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:27 AM
Morals do not exist. They are man made abstract rules used to control others.
The reason I do not do such things is because I wouldn&#39;t like the consquences... and I&#39;d feel bad about it because of the social pressure.
Uhm. It may be true that you believe that there is no need for morality. But this will let you live on a subhuman level. If there was no morality, you could do everything. Kill, rape, steal. This only works because there are moral people. Those who work to produce the food you eat, and the Tv series you watch. If everyone takes your strange stand that morality doesn&#39;t exist, then you will see that you need morality to survive pretty fast. Whom do you steal from if nobody works?

[Nietzsche]

Freedom is the right to your own life and therefore to the products of your own work. Your freedom ends where other people&#39;s freedom begins. That&#39;s it. This is the maximum of freedom for all people you can possibly have. Wishing for more freedom is stupid. Wishing for less is not wanting freedom.

[DisIllusion]

The USA is definitely not free.

True freedom is Anarchy, which, probably, most of us won&#39;t see in our lifetimes but it&#39;s what all of us who don&#39;t believe in Facism truly strive for.

And don&#39;t be so pessimistic Nietzsche, there&#39;s always the Revolution to look forward to. :)

[Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 12:16 AM
The USA is definitely not free.

True freedom is Anarchy, which, probably, most of us won&#39;t see in our lifetimes but it&#39;s what all of us who don&#39;t believe in Facism truly strive for.

And don&#39;t be so pessimistic Nietzsche, there&#39;s always the Revolution to look forward to. :)
The revolution? I thought it had happened in Russia once, in Germany with bad effects and in all the other statist countries. A revolution won&#39;t come. Jesus won&#39;t come. Nobody will come. But strangely enough there&#39;s a means of justice called reality. And it can&#39;t be bought nor can it be forced. If you spend what you don&#39;t earn you&#39;ll have to pay in the end.
If you agree with my definition of freedom, then I wonder how you can reasonably support a social system that doesn&#39;t grant you this freedom, but advocates:
&#39;from everyone according to his abilities, to everyone according to his need.&#39; How&#39;s that freedom? You don&#39;t own your life under such a doctrine, strangely everyone else does.
&#39;To everyone according to his abilities and leave everyone alone.&#39;
That&#39;s my doctrine. And as far as I see it, it&#39;s directly opposed to the one I criticised above.
Under anarchy a minimal government will naturally evolve, because nobody has any interest in living in constant fear of the whims of his &#39;fellow man&#39; (who happens to own a weapon).

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 03:37 PM
The revolution? I thought it had happened in Russia once, in Germany with bad effects and in all the other statist countries. A revolution won&#39;t come. Jesus won&#39;t come. Nobody will come.
The revolutions you hghlighted were never instigated with the hope of increasing freedom. They started and ended in dictatorship and regadless of what was said they have no bearing on a revolution designed to increase freedom. If you doubt this then taht is another issue completely.

Also I was just curious about your screename. I had preconceptions when I saw you were titled Nietzsche, but you do not seem to have much resemblance to him in terms of ideas. Just wondering.

[Creature]

I believe that freedom can only be attained by abolishing the state, and lies in ability of a man or women to do as they please.

I believe the only one single rule that is needed is that you can do as you please, as long as you don&#39;t impose on another&#39;s freedom. So thus, if I kill you, I&#39;d be imposing on your fredom to live.

Though I am always open to correction, I at least arn&#39;t afraid to admit when I&#39;m wrong.

[Nietzsche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 05:15 PM
Also I was just curious about your screename. I had preconceptions when I saw you were titled Nietzsche, but you do not seem to have much resemblance to him in terms of ideas. Just wondering.
Hey, someone noticed. :)
I always liked Nietzsche for his deep thinking, his atheism, and his relevation that morality is man-made. I disagree with his scepticism and some of his wilder "The strong shall kill the weak"-type statements. I also disagree with his notion that, since morality has to be man-made, there is no basis for morality and no objective morality to be found. This is clearly wrong. The other philosopher I truly honor is Aristotle. He invented logic. And all you have, your computer, the food you eat at that cheap price, the electric light in your room would have been impossible without first discovering logic. I still hold that this was the greatest achievement ever made by a single human being. That&#39;s also where my disagreement with Nietzsche comes from, he believed in "will", I believe in reason instead. No matter how much your "will" tells that 2+2 is 5, it&#39;s always 4. That&#39;s why reason will always be more powerful than force.
Also reason is the pathway to freedom as I have defined it.

[Hegemonicretribution]

I agree with some of what you said about Nietzsche, but not all of it. I just got different things from my reading, then again it is hard to say when he is so abstract much of the time. From what I understand for example he argued not that morality was worthless, he highlighted its worth, rather when it became self-preservatory (religion for example) then it must be abolished as it is preventing progression, and I do agree with this.

Anyway I am always up for discussing him if you care to start a thread or PM me.

On a side not I wouldn&#39;t agree that reason allows 2+2=4 rather that it is self determined; a tautology.

Still glad the confusion has gone, there were a few counter productive nihilist fanatics a while back, and you seemed different :)

[Delirium]

Nobody if free

We are all bound by the laws of nature, circumstance, condtioning, and our previous experiences of the world. All the decisons we make are determend by these factors.
Sure you may argue that we are free in a conventional sense, but even then the social condtions in which live in restrict most persons from exercizing freedom. Most people dont go mug somone, or rape, or murder. Our culture forces us to self regulate, That is certainly not true liberty.

[Delirium]

Nobody if free

We are all bound by the laws of nature, circumstance, condtioning, and our previous experiences of the world. All the decisons we make are determend by these factors.
Sure you may argue that we are free in a conventional sense, but even then the social condtions in which live in restrict most persons from exercizing freedom. Most people dont go mug somone, or rape, or murder. Our culture forces us to self regulate, That is certainly not true liberty.

[Delirium]

*sorry about the duplication

[Nietzsche]

Originally posted by Datura [email protected] 15 2005, 05:01 PM
Nobody if free

We are all bound by the laws of nature, circumstance, condtioning, and our previous experiences of the world. All the decisons we make are determend by these factors.
Sure you may argue that we are free in a conventional sense, but even then the social condtions in which live in restrict most persons from exercizing freedom. Most people dont go mug somone, or rape, or murder. Our culture forces us to self regulate, That is certainly not true liberty.
Are you actually angry because you are not allowed to rape??&#33;
Again, what do you mean by freedom? There is a certain limit. It is called reality. Gravity for example. But freedom means political freedom. The fact that you need oxygen doesn&#39;t destroy your political freedom. This freedom is, as I already said, maximised by providing everyone with the basic rights to his life and its products.
To be absolutely free from reality and the necessities of life, you have to be dead. But then there is nobody to be free, because "you" have become free from existence.

[Delirium]

Dont be so politicly correct.
I am only making a point, I really cant see myself raping anyone.

Freedom in the sense that you use it cannot even be achieved, we are bound by laws, social pressures, and circumstance. This is undeniable, and since these constrictions are always prevelant we are not free.

Perhaps in a utopian society we could be free in a conventional way, but not in the society that all peoples of the world live in.

[fpeppett]

To me there is no such thing as freedom because nobody can ever gain 100% freedom, because everyone is held back by something.

[syme]

Freedom is when Mr. Finn says "Stop talking," and I can say, without consequences, "If you want me to stop, get your lazy ass off of that chair, walk over here and suck my dick. Then, and only then, will I shut the fuck up."

[Janus]

Freedom shouldn&#39;t be limited as long as it doesn&#39;t intrude upon the freedoms of others.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Freedom is being free from oppression. :D

[Sentinel]

Freedom is being free from oppression

That is exactly what I too was going to say. The cappies rant about their freedom
to do stuff, but freedom for us proles is freedom from their freedom. ;)
I&#39;m from Sweden. Here the capitalist freedom is gaining ground over the proletarian freedom, which has never been great but atleast decent compared to the situation in most countries.

[Iroquois Xavier]

Im surprised Freedom is in the vocab of a capitalist&#33; :lol: Freedom is being free without repressing the freedom of others. The cappies should take note. :D

[gilhyle]

Freedom is an ideal, an aspiration to create a capitalist world in which no one suffers harm, it is an intellectual lure that attracts us, tempts us, ensnares us, leaves us enslaved.

It is incredibly attractive because it promises everything.

It tempts us politically because it hints at the outcome of sharing an a laguage of ideals with others from whom, otherwise, we are distant.

It ensnares us because it is conceptually paradoxical (Freedom is slavery - Orwell; see most of the earlier posts)

It leaves us enslaved because it is an idea that neither empowers (although it can inspire) nor informs.

Freedom is capitalism as an ideal. The profit of it is evident, the costs are hidden but immense.

Forget about it.

[Iroquois Xavier]

???????????

[Tormented by Treachery]

Freedom to choose, freedom from inequality.

[Gonzo Journalism]

Thinking realistically, I reckon that the most free country would be one with no cencorship, less laws restricting things like drugs, and equality within society. That&#39;s about as far as it&#39;s possible to get in the way of freedom.

[foreverfaded]

freedom-

not being controlled by anything or one
having the ability to do anything without question
doing whatever you want
saying whatever you want
no one is free, with a government, there is laws, with laws, our abilities to do what we want or restricted, not saying that i want to kill someone, but no one will ever be truly free, unless you live in the hills and abide by nothing already.

[Dreckt]

Very few people really realizes how lucky humans really are. Take a good look at living beings. What are their purpose? To reproduce. That&#39;s what it&#39;s all about. We have our time here on our planet because we have to pass on our genes.

To do this, our being requires stuff to grow and means to pass genes onto the next generation. Air, water and food, and later in life, a partner. Ever wondered why relationships never last "forever" like they say in lovestories? Quite simple.

If we would be attached to one partner throughout our lives we would not be such a successful being, and would probably diminish rather soon. That is why we have a chemical level, which always requires more - just like, say, heroine - in order for us to be together with our partner. When this level reaches it&#39;s peak, we start to look at other people, other potential partners. That is how we can keep reproducing and pass on our genes.

Family, friends, work - all this is just a big plus. And my freedom lies in doing things for other people. Let it be helping a blind man, let it be building houses or writing entertaining books and shooting entertaining movies. I want to do all this on my terms, when I like to do them, not because of my working hours. That way I become more attached to my work, rather than seeing it as something I have to do during some time.

As for the freedom towards other humans, then there are some too. I wouldn&#39;t want to be a criminal, and not because it can end up with bad concequenses for me, but because I see all other men and women as equals. If I must have these rights, then so must they. Because if they can&#39;t have those rights, we go back to a worse civilization with people who have nothing tries to take from people who have something, which is bad because this causes conflict amongst our species.

Psychology has prooven that by working together humans can go much further. By living side by side, all having the same rights and possibilities as I do, then the risk of being killed, raped, robbed or severely beaten is reduced greatly. The more people benefit from a system, the better, because I also benefit.