Do the Charlottesville Nazis deserve violence after the fact? [Archive]

GLF

20th August 2017, 16:01

Laika

20th August 2017, 17:01

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

I felt the same way because I can well imagine it happen to "us" in the far-left if we ever get too out of line for the establishment. no-one would care. they'd just laugh and keep punching us when we're down. they'd hate us out of the same belief we are devils when we are complete strangers to them. Its a form of mob justice with people taking revenge on other people because of a label. I wouldn't call it the "people expressing themselves". the people have expressed themselves with bare faced hypocrisy and cowardice by ignoring the problem for years but now they suddenly "care" because they feel threatened by it. a mob remains a mob even if we may agree with what makes it angry. they are animated by passions that they have no self-control over and will throw themselves into destructiveness with unthinking fanaticism as they take out their repressed sadistic longings on other people. suddenly the oppressed get to feel like they matter. unfortunately, those same nazis would use mobs against jews, gays and blacks when they think they have the upper hand and can get away with it. there are probably some nazis out there trying to do what they think is right and will brave the circumstances, but they are wrong and are on the wrong side. it is a wasted effort and virtues for a bad cause. the more enlightened of them may say the same of us.

I know that isn't considered a "good" thing from the standpoint of the class struggle because your supposed to be partisan and always stand up for the "winning side" and the "just cause", but as a set of emotions we have to grapple with- it is a very communist thing to do. it is not something to be ashamed of. we are for all humanity, even our enemies, most of whom were abused and lied to in order to turn them into they monsters they are. we have to fight them but we must chose our methods carefully based on reason, not just rage. hatred is often a sign of our own emotional poverty or worse, a sense of fear and inferiority. I think it is better to be humbled by the power of the mob because at least then you understand what "revolution" consists of. it has a profound ugliness to it and it means we start to grapple with the nature of the social forces that are unleashed in the class struggle beyond the protection of "bourgeois" law. to be truly moral is to do what is right regardless of whether there is punishment. mobs typically are opportunistic and are less "moral" because they do what they think they can get away with. beyond that I don't know what to say but it is important to be honest with yourself and not hide from what makes us uncomfortable simply because it is expedient. the sort of heroic ideal communism can represent demands self-mastery and discipline, and that cannot be found in a mob even if we think their cause is a just one.

BIXX

20th August 2017, 17:23

If you're wondering why you feel this way, in my experience it's largely because of certain political experiences (not a quantitative experience, a qualitative one) that influence what they think of all this. Also, idk whether you've been at one of the rallies in person (and you shouldn't tell me yes or no) but I think your views would change very quick.

GLF

20th August 2017, 18:14

Its a form of mob justice ...

That's it...the words I was looking for. That's why it left a bad taste in my mouth. Even if they do deserve it (the doxing, death threats, etc), I felt a little conflicted.

For me, things like Antifa and left-wing resistance has always existed in the context of defending those the far-right set out to attack. Make no mistake, the far-right need to be pummeled in the streets in defense of those they are attacking. In that context I find it vulgar to defend those attacking people for things they can't help inasmuch as they can help it themselves...no one has forced them to be nazis. But outside that, I see them as young boys with mental problems, and I can't help but pity them against the wrath of an entire country...even though I know that as an LGBTQ person with a Jewish name, they would want to kill me.

The Intransigent Faction

20th August 2017, 23:22

That's it...the words I was looking for. That's why it left a bad taste in my mouth. Even if they do deserve it (the doxing, death threats, etc), I felt a little conflicted.

For me, things like Antifa and left-wing resistance has always existed in the context of defending those the far-right set out to attack. Make no mistake, the far-right need to be pummeled in the streets in defense of those they are attacking. In that context I find it vulgar to defend those attacking people for things they can't help inasmuch as they can help it themselves...no one has forced them to be nazis. But outside that, I see them as young boys with mental problems, and I can't help but pity them against the wrath of an entire country...even though I know that as an LGBTQ person with a Jewish name, they would want to kill me.

It makes sense to be uneasy about engaging in tactics which have been and will be used against the radical left. Being "outed" to an employer or potential employers as a communist wouldn't go over well, either, and relying on those with power to deny fascists an ability to gather and agitate can easily backfire.

It's a messy situation when you have those in power condemning violence "on all sides," or calling for "non-violent resistance," and both fascists and socialists predictably rejecting "peaceful coexistence." Even as the state says this, it shows inaction toward Nazi violence while forming a protective wall around vastly-outnumbered fascists. While exposing a fundamental reality of the bourgeois state, this also shows the fierceness of the struggle anti-fascists have ahead of them.

P.S., I can post again! Thanks ckaihatsu.

Ele'ill

21st August 2017, 01:00

GLF

21st August 2017, 01:38

There isn't really an 'after the fact' because they're still organizing. If some of them are crying about having their 'lives ruined' I'd have to ask which life? Their life as a fascist that they saw for themselves? If some of them didn't know this was real this is a great wake up call for them to fuck off and never ever go back.

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize. They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power. One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me. But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

Ele'ill

21st August 2017, 04:18

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize.

no such luxury will ever exist

They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power.

all states have that power over everyone even if it's not exercised at any given moment

One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me. But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

I wouldn't say 'more often than not' and white privilege goes a long way even without the wealth to the point that 'the most vulnerable elements of society' is pretty much the entire world.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

I hope the consciousness of the state's various maneuverings within this become more and more visible.

ckaihatsu

21st August 2017, 15:15

I felt the same way because I can well imagine it happen to "us" in the far-left if we ever get too out of line for the establishment. no-one would care. they'd just laugh and keep punching us when we're down. they'd hate us out of the same belief we are devils when we are complete strangers to them.

The actions of the state in this regard tend to set the status-quo 'example' for people to adopt and follow, unfortunately -- it's common to run-into the liberal-type mindset that far-left and far-right are *equivalent*, because both ends are willing to use extra-state violence, and because of historical Stalinism and Nazism, respectively.

So this centrist position is a *privileged* one, because the supporters of the state then get to play 'referee' between the two sides, as though the opposing sides are just brand-like 'flavors', or sports teams, each vying in similar, generic ways for their own victory over the other -- nothing is usually covered, outside of the recent Charlottesville incident, in the corporate press, as to deeper motivations or interests, or why the two sides are *not* 'equivalent' politically.

Its a form of mob justice with people taking revenge on other people because of a label. I wouldn't call it the "people expressing themselves". the people have expressed themselves with bare faced hypocrisy and cowardice by ignoring the problem for years but now they suddenly "care" because they feel threatened by it. a mob remains a mob even if we may agree with what makes it angry. they are animated by passions that they have no self-control over and will throw themselves into destructiveness with unthinking fanaticism as they take out their repressed sadistic longings on other people. suddenly the oppressed get to feel like they matter.

Agreed -- I'm reminded of Wilde here:

The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man’s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/

As long as polarized political newbies are willing to 'take out their repressed sadistic longings' on the *far-right*, I'd have no problems with this kind of 'mob passion', because at least they're picking the correct target. Maybe the oppressed would then learn from their experiences more of the underlying social reasons for why marginalizing the far-right (and the bourgeoisie) is a *good* thing.

unfortunately, those same nazis would use mobs against jews, gays and blacks when they think they have the upper hand and can get away with it. there are probably some nazis out there trying to do what they think is right and will brave the circumstances, but they are wrong and are on the wrong side. it is a wasted effort and virtues for a bad cause.

Yes.

the more enlightened of them may say the same of us.

This statement is puzzling since you're empathizing with far-right politics.

I know that isn't considered a "good" thing from the standpoint of the class struggle because your supposed to be partisan and always stand up for the "winning side" and the "just cause", but as a set of emotions we have to grapple with- it is a very communist thing to do. it is not something to be ashamed of. we are for all humanity, even our enemies, most of whom were abused and lied to in order to turn them into they monsters they are. we have to fight them but we must chose our methods carefully based on reason, not just rage.

Yeah, the reason why we're revolutionaries (in this polarized context) is because the far-right has no qualms with victimizing social minorities at any chance they get -- they should be made to feel some of that pain that they're so willing to dish out onto others, in hopes that they'll get the message that such arbitrary violent behavior is *not* socially acceptable.

Let's call it 'political operant conditioning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning)'.

hatred is often a sign of our own emotional poverty or worse, a sense of fear and inferiority. I think it is better to be humbled by the power of the mob because at least then you understand what "revolution" consists of. it has a profound ugliness to it and it means we start to grapple with the nature of the social forces that are unleashed in the class struggle beyond the protection of "bourgeois" law.

I don't see why you would think of class-struggle revolution as being 'ugly' -- as long as there's principles and coordination it's actually *uplifting*, because it *can't* be a 'mob' when people are struggling to empower the working class, towards workers power and the overthrow of bourgeois repression.

to be truly moral is to do what is right regardless of whether there is punishment. mobs typically are opportunistic and are less "moral" because they do what they think they can get away with. beyond that I don't know what to say but it is important to be honest with yourself and not hide from what makes us uncomfortable simply because it is expedient. the sort of heroic ideal communism can represent demands self-mastery and discipline, and that cannot be found in a mob even if we think their cause is a just one.

Exactly -- this is more to-the-point, I'd say.

It makes sense to be uneasy about engaging in tactics which have been and will be used against the radical left. Being "outed" to an employer or potential employers as a communist wouldn't go over well, either, and relying on those with power to deny fascists an ability to gather and agitate can easily backfire.

Or, as with anti-fascist actions in general, it can put those with power (employers, Trump, etc.) *on-the-spot*, forcing them to deal with the larger political environment, which happens to include fascist-minded repression against social minorities, and those on the far-left who can physically counter fascist sentiments.

It's a messy situation when you have those in power condemning violence "on all sides," or calling for "non-violent resistance," and both fascists and socialists predictably rejecting "peaceful coexistence." Even as the state says this, it shows inaction toward Nazi violence while forming a protective wall around vastly-outnumbered fascists. While exposing a fundamental reality of the bourgeois state, this also shows the fierceness of the struggle anti-fascists have ahead of them.

Yup.

P.S., I can post again! Thanks ckaihatsu.

Yup.

Yea, it's fucked up. In any decent society they wouldn't have the ability organize. They would be rounded up in padded wagons and sent to reeducation facilities. But I'll be damned if I want the present state to have that kinda power.

Why not, though -- ? With incidents of sexual harassment, for example, cops and white-collar types are sent to 'diversity training', which is a *positive* step, however inadequate (due to the *institutional* nature of racism, sexism, etc., manifested in society).

If the state can be maneuvered into doing some of our political work *for* us (by taking liberal-type steps in specific instances), then that would be a *good* thing, though ultimately inadequate, of course.

One of the biggest problems with everything is the fact that more often then not these boys don't own capital or the means that produce it yet are hell bent on defending white supremacy. It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

It's reactionary opportunism -- carving out formerly-racist-hegemonic social practices, for contrived social justification / status, and power, of course. It's inherently *idealism* since it's not based on a materialist analysis of societal production (labor).

But deluded boys carrying torches, while tremendously ugly and threatening to the most vulnerable elements of society, isn't really all that captivating an example of white supremacy. A better example of white supremacy are the fucking bank accounts of many of the people on TV condemning those boys. And that pisses me off.

Good point.

If there is an upside to this...it's them being disrupted from organizing in the future. I hope they are. And I hope they think long and hard about their future endeavors.

They won't, of course, because they're *opportunists* -- their politics goes as deep as whatever they can get away with.

I hope the consciousness of the state's various maneuverings within this become more and more visible.

Yes -- that's what the current emergent mass consciousness, from empirical political polarization, is already revealing.

ZombieMarx

21st August 2017, 16:40

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

19770

Ele'ill

21st August 2017, 19:12

Yes -- that's what the current emergent mass consciousness, from empirical political polarization, is already revealing.

My point was that the 'mass consciousness' you're talking about might be a mobilization against trump and nazi's but is generally unaware of state collusion with fascists, and co-opting of struggle by liberal organizations, or liberal leaders within organizations. I can pick out some examples where this is the case and also examples where there's efforts being made to break down the state's and liberal leadership's legitimacy in being a keeper of 'good' order.

GLF

21st August 2017, 20:40

Why not, though -- ? With incidents of sexual harassment, for example, cops and white-collar types are sent to 'diversity training', which is a *positive* step, however inadequate (due to the *institutional* nature of racism, sexism, etc., manifested in society).

If the state can be maneuvered into doing some of our political work *for* us (by taking liberal-type steps in specific instances), then that would be a *good* thing, though ultimately inadequate, of course.

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

When it comes to the fash, I say the people can handle that shit ourselves. The people can drive them out. We don't need the state for shit because they are NOT on our side will never, ever be. In fact, if communist revolution were imminent they would not only refuse to do our political work as it relates to fascism, they would conspire against us...they would even hand the keys of the state apparatus over to the fascists before they'd let us win.

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

19770

Yea, I agree with this. Anytime fascism rears it's head on the streets they have to be met with resistance - but it's not because I am afraid of their power. Let's not kid ourselves...these guys aren't taking over anything anytime soon. I think the most important thing is to send a message to marginalized communities that there are people who have their back. I think the thing that bothers me about the whole thing is that I have the ability to see the youth and class-status of these guys and wonder how in the world did they ever think that this would be a good thing. I don't know how one gets to that point where they think that hate is the answer. I don't know why I am so bothered by this in particular...maybe it's the pictures and seeing their young faces up close and shit. I just think the whole thing is so very tragic. This whole thing and it's aftermath is completely unlike anything I've ever experienced before in my lifetime.

But I also understand that we have to defend those with no defense but I wish it didn't have to be like this. I wish this was a society where everyone without capital/mop were on the same side...but won't happen as long as fascists keep terrorizing people of color. They might as well show up to the next event gift wrapped with a big bow ribbon addressed to the bourgeoisie. So fucking stupid and counterproductive.

I really don't know what it's going to take or what's going to happen. I'm just fucking sick of everything.

The Intransigent Faction

21st August 2017, 23:01

Or, as with anti-fascist actions in general, it can put those with power (employers, Trump, etc.) *on-the-spot*, forcing them to deal with the larger political environment, which happens to include fascist-minded repression against social minorities, and those on the far-left who can physically counter fascist sentiments.

Fair point. In a way, I can't think of a more beneficial way for the radical left to be forced into the spotlight than through a nationalist President's condemnation of their lack of tolerance for fascist bullshit.

The more people realize "Hey, communists really ARE the ones actually standing most effectively against fascism," the better.

EDIT: Something like this, however...

CJFE is deeply concerned by the alleged assault on Global News journalist Mike Armstrong and cameraman Jean-Vincent Verveille at an August 20th demonstration against far-right group La Meute in Quebec City. Armstrong was reportedly shoved down stairs, while Verveille’s camera was smashed on the ground in the same altercation. Armstrong stated on Twitter that the assailant was from a “a violent faction of anti-racists.” Armstrong spoke to CJFE by telephone on Monday from the Roxham Road border crossing where he was reporting on refugee families entering Canada.

Mike Armstrong ✔ @ArmstrongGN
Pushed around and our camera was smashed... and the group we were supposed to be covering hasn't even stepped out of the parking garage.
5:25 PM - Aug 20, 2017
30 30 Replies 80 80 Retweets 65 65 likes

Assaults on media workers erode press freedom rights and undermine the critical role journalists play in strengthening democracy. During periods of social unrest, journalists play a crucial role as observers and disseminators of up-to-date news on these public interest issues, and thus must be allowed freedom to conduct their work. Journalists also work to gather and publish evidence which can help to support demonstrators claims of police brutality or repression.

zGlobal_News_camera_grabbed__smashed_on_ground_dur ing_heated_protests_in_Quebec_City__Watch_News_Vid eos_Online_-_Google_Chrome.jpg

A masked demonstrator approaches a Global News camera at an August 20, 2017 Quebec City rally against far-right group La Meute in a bid to prevent them from filming. Image Source: Global News.

Competing protests between far-right and anti-fascist groups are taking place with increasing regularity across North America. In May 2017 a CJFE staff member was assaulted by far-right groups while filming at an anti-Islam rally in Toronto. These events are matters of urgent public interest, and it is essential that Canadians have access to accurate, reliable information from reporters on the ground. That information will dry up if journalists become targets of violence at these events, depriving Canadians of essential context and impoverishing public understanding.

“I have covered a lot of riots,” Armstrong said to CJFE, listing several noteworthy demonstrations and also highlighting his experience reporting from conflict zones including Afghanistan, Ukraine and Haiti. “The more you speak to me, the more I can get your point of view across accurately.” he said. Initially believing the rally to be peaceful, he stated that he had considered bringing his children.

pasted_image_0.pngArmstrong also reported that following the assault, his colleague Jean-Vincent Verveille received a threat on Twitter from an account with obvious ties to far-right groups.

Street protests are an essential form of free expression, and an indispensable tactic to challenge racist and overtly fascist political movements. Since the events of Charlottesville, many newsrooms have devoted increased resources to covering the opposition to hate groups. This in turn will result in much more contact between demonstrators and journalists in the future. It is the duty of everyone who values democratic principles and basic freedoms to challenge hateful ideology. Those engaging in this essential work must remember that the free press has always been a crucial part in the victory of civil rights and social justice movements, and always will be.

A spokesperson from the anti-racist coalition which organized the protest could not be reached for comment.

It's interesting that the "group we were supposed to be covering" is the fascist demonstrators.
That said, a more organized and disciplined movement in place of ad-hoc reactive counterdemonstrations could avoid incidents like this, which aren't necessarily helpful.

BIXX

21st August 2017, 23:22

ckaihatsu

22nd August 2017, 14:28

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

Yes, good distinction (voluntary vs. involuntary).

When it comes to the fash, I say the people can handle that shit ourselves. The people can drive them out. We don't need the state for shit because they are NOT on our side will never, ever be. In fact, if communist revolution were imminent they would not only refuse to do our political work as it relates to fascism, they would conspire against us...they would even hand the keys of the state apparatus over to the fascists before they'd let us win.

Yes.

Armstrong stated on Twitter that the assailant was from a “a violent faction of anti-racists.”

This *is* curious -- did the anti-racists mistakenly think that they were attacking a *far-right* media group, as with this other example -- ?

A masked demonstrator approaches a Global News camera at an August 20, 2017 Quebec City rally against far-right group La Meute in a bid to prevent them from filming.

I'm trying hard to imagine what reason the anti-racists could possibly have had for denying routine media coverage.

I think, though, that this shows that even press coverage is not necessarily 'neutral', and that the liberal 'free speech' rights-attitude is not necessarily the standard to hew to, in our best interests -- *most* of the time it is, though.

Journalists also work to gather and publish evidence which can help to support demonstrators claims of police brutality or repression.

And this is just sad -- journalism having to 'sell' itself to the left in a bid to justify its role in society.

---

I don't have a bit of problem with diversity training and whatever else...where I draw the line is on involuntary commitment under the present status-quo. I said that the fascists should be rounded up and sent to reeducation facilities...under socialism. With all respect, the examples listed above just aren't the same thing at all. If the people don't want to do their diversity training or whatever their employer mandates than they can just quit. But I swear to god that if we grant the bourgeois state the power to round people up...when the time comes for revolution they WILL use that power against us, just as historically they would've used it against abolitionists, suffragists, civil rights, activists, LGBTQ, etc.

Do you seriously want the socialist state to have that power? I'd fight that socialism to the day I die.

I think we should *want* the socialist state to have that power, but I'm more concerned with the real-world *logistics* of such -- 're-education facilities' sounds a lot like *jail*, and the *staffing* of such jail-like facilities would be an inherently *political* task, and not a material-productive one. The revolutionary workers would have to set up a social *institution* of some kind for the organization of personnel to staff these facilities, and there would have to be a collective, but decisive, decision-making process over who is sent to re-education programs, and who isn't, and why.

So basically it would be 'messy', but I could readily see that worldwide conditions of protracted open class struggle could objectively *call* for such impositions of revolutionary 'authority', as for the use of re-education facilities. I just don't feel confident that such fixed-institution-type practices would be logistically clean or worth the socio-political organization that such institutions would require for their functioning.

Maybe more-of a 'quarantine'-type approach would be better, but that, too, would be a fixed institution of sorts, with various kinds of messy overhead, as well.

The Intransigent Faction

22nd August 2017, 18:10

Rabble.ca has a great article on the media's narrative regarding "violent counter-demonstrators." It's mostly about this weekend's Quebec City demonstrations, but it touches on Charlottesville, as well:

When Donald Trump condemned "both sides" for violence in Charlottesville, he was widely, and correctly, condemned. Heather Heyer was murdered and 19 others were injured. Racists were armed. Police strategically sat back. It was a horrifying image of "two sides" in confrontation.

Naively, I thought that perhaps the media was learning to get past this two sides fallacy. Nazi punching is back in vogue. Racists' identities are being exposed and they're losing their jobs. The violent rhetoric of these groups is finally leading to consequences. But until we puncture through the mainstream consensus that there are "two sides" to every story, progressives will never win the air wars.

That's because access to free speech isn't equal. It takes nearly nothing for our events and our rallies to be ignored, sensationalized, obscured or ruined.

Today, the mainstream media consensus is that anti-immigrant, white supremacist group La Meute was the true winner in Quebec City yesterday because a handful of people smashed glass and threw patio chairs. I watched it happen as the police stood back and allowed it.

Not far from where this happened are sons, widows, friends and neighbours of six men who were murdered by an individual inspired by the kind of anti-immigrant and Islamophobic beliefs spouted by La Meute.

Unlike Heather Heyer, they weren't killed while they were protesting. They were simply living and specifically, praying. Their very existence was resistance and they died in a space that is sacred and holy, one where no one should ever feel threatened or face violence.

Survivors of that attack still struggle with that horror. Families remain in mourning. Racists continue to send threats and violent messages to the mosques in town. And yet, when La Meute marches and anti-racists march against, all of this context vanishes.

The events yesterday shouldn't have happened in the way they did. When the police declared the rally illegal, they intentionally didn't act on their declaration. No one was arrested because they were participating in an illegal march. When a dumpster was set on fire and glass thrown towards fully-protected police, police did the bare minimum to make sure no one was hit. They didn't put out the dumpster fire. They didn't dispatch firefighters. They didn't arrest anyone for vandalism. They allowed it to happen and journalists flocked to the chaos.

Declaring the rally illegal was not intended to keep the peace. It was an act of PR. Today, the police have promised that they will be arresting people perhaps later on, maybe tomorrow.

When Jaggi Singh was arrested, police knew that the cameras would turn to him, that he would absorb the news. Never mind that he was released without charge the same day, on the other side of town. The stories were already published. Don MacPherson at The Gazette congratulated Singh on Twitter for handing victory to La Meute, as if Singh had begged the police himself to arrest him. As if his arrest wasn't an egregious attack on his free speech.

Police tear gassed protesters. They chose a violent tactic meant to injure protesters, rather than simply arrest and ticket people for protesting during an illegal rally.

When La Meute finally emerged from the parking garage, their protest was "peaceful" and "legal." Perhaps it helped that some of their placards expressed solidarity and support for the RCMP.

Journalist Desmond Cole tweeted: "until more people understand that these white supremacist marches are a form of violence, we're in big trouble," and really, that is the heart of this struggle. It is impossible for La Meute to have a "peaceful" demonstration when they're calling for an end to immigration and the maintenance of a white Quebec, and impossible for La Meute to have had a victory yesterday, without journalists handing that victory to them directly.

To argue that La Meute won requires a few ingredients. You first must believe that they have furthered the cause of a white Quebec. That, in the eyes of Quebecers, immigration is less popular today than it was on Saturday. Second, you must believe that hiding out in a parking garage for several hours, is a marker of a successful rally. Third, you must ignore that La Meute was outnumbered, somewhere between 3:1 and 5:1 by anti-racist protesters. Fourth, you must uncritically carry La Meute's own PR as news, while you denigrate the "other side" for being violent.

Last March, when anti-racist protesters (me included) took over a La Meute rally despite being outnumbered, the media didn't declare that we "had won." We were simply present. We did "everything right" and no journalist declared us the victor.

The real violence in this city goes only one way: from skinhead groups who post online that they're training for street fighting, to the new white supremacist boxing club that they're setting up. From attacks at mosques to racist banner drops. From the "peaceful, lawful" racist rally on Saturday that went unchallenged to the fight against a Muslim cemetery. It's as if the mainstream press and politicians are so far down the vortex of white supremacy that they can't think clearly.

Or, that they benefit so much from white supremacy that they cannot untie themselves from it to conjure up a sober assessment of it.

Heather Heyer may have triggered a North American reflection and fightback against fascism but what has been the result of the murder of six racialized Muslim men? Have we managed to not only have learned nothing, but instead sanitized the mundane hatred of a "peaceful, legal" rally?

The fallacy of left-wing violence is that it creates this narrative: progressives are to blame for the rise of extreme right-wing sentiment. That, if only the broad left had been quieter, larger, less aggressive, more peaceful or whatever, La Meute would not have been able to "declare victory." Maybe this makes sense from an ahistorical, contextless position. Maybe this makes sense from a position that assumes that journalists cover events fairly and proportionate to what happens, but both are fallacy. The left will never be peaceful enough, nice enough or lawful enough because we are made illegal or we are marginalized the second the state has the chance.

And worse, for the hundreds of people who rallied yesterday "peacefully," without incident, their presence and voices have been erased. Their actions rendered futile. If I worked as a mainstream journalist, perhaps I'd lay the blame at the foot of the Black Bloc. But it was orchestrated to go down the way it did.

The state wants us to stay home next time. We know better than that, though. We just need to be larger and better organized next time. And the next time after that. And resist the narrative that we are ourselves to blame for the hatred and racism that we fight.

TomLeftist

23rd August 2017, 06:41

GLF: Like I wrote in another comment in this site. It is really hard to answer that question, because most of us are not psycho-analyists professionals like Erich Fromm, Freud, Bertorlt Bretch, Marx, etc. But I think you are right. It is anti-scientific to generalize and to think that every white blond person with blue eyes and green eyes are nazi KKK killers.

But at the same time I advise all blacks, all latinos, all muslims, all asians, and all leftist whites who hate racists, to get into a power gaining, self-defense program, and to turn into a Rambo, an Alexander the Great, every time they go out to the streets. Because in the book The Prince by Machiavelli, it says that it is better to be feared than to be loved. I know that we should love all humans. But if blacks, latinos, muslims do not want to die, they better wear a sort of powerful physical appearance and violent appearnce by a weight training program, a book-reading program of aggressive literature and personal defense program.

The USA is not Cuba, it is not Argentina, it is not China, it is not Europe, it is not Africa. The USA is a hell of a white barbarian viking race hateful white vikings barbarian people every where. Even the Indians immigrants who own gas stations are forced to own weapons to protect themselves from the white european race, who behave like Vikings

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

TomLeftist

23rd August 2017, 06:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryt8Ek79XwA
Be a warrior like comrade Mike Tyson and comrade Mohamed Ali !!

ZombieMarx: YOu are right, what we need is a sort of immoral violent diabolical left, if the right-wing is immoral, violent and diabolical. I don't understand why can't the left-wing be immoral, evil, violent and diabolical. We should destroy, and crush all nazis, all racists. Machiavelli said that if you want to destroy an enemy, you should destroy him completely and very powerful so that the enemy would think it twice before attacking you back.

I've noticed the rise of road-rage, in many USA cities, and many people, usually right-wingers with big vehicles think that people who drive smaller cars are passive and weak. They are pieces of scared trash, they get scared pretty easy. We should not be scared of anybody, not even of Caligula, Hitler, Mussolini. Pinochet, Trump Bush or any stupid piece of redneck hillbillies trash. That's why I advice a program of physical power for leftists, the philosophers of ancient Greece and ancient Rome gave a lot of importance to the diet, the body and the physiology.

We are soldiers, fighters, warriors. People who choose to be marxists, leftists are warriors. That's why even Bernie Sanders is a warrior, even Jill Stein, even Amy Goodman is a warrior, Sean Penn is a warrior. I remember that he punched a camera guy many years ago.

But anyways all leftists should be warriors, fighters, gain physical strength and military skills, and be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year

Within the anti-fascist struggle, violence should always an option. It's one tool within the available tool set. Any legalistic approach is a naive one. The bourgeois authorities are part of the problem, not the solution.
Especially in the US now, any fascist ambitions to rule the streets should be stifled from the beginning by all means necessary.

19770

- - - Updated - - -

I forgot that a great idea for my KKK Nazi friends, who i love so much, is to spray their faces with Sulfuric Acid

Ele'ill

23rd August 2017, 21:28

I'm trying hard to imagine what reason the anti-racists could possibly have had for denying routine media coverage.

I think, though, that this shows that even press coverage is not necessarily 'neutral', and that the liberal 'free speech' rights-attitude is not necessarily the standard to hew to, in our best interests -- *most* of the time it is, though.

Most of the time, the media spins events to preserve order because they're a part of that order, their existence depends on it, and because they can get juicy behind the scenes interviews and access to breaking reports at a later time when they play nice with power. How an anarchist or communist could ever come to a conclusion that media at large portrays an accurate account of events is alarming. Have those of you with this opinion considered that the various antifascist actions around the US (and world) currently have forced the narrative and that without berkeley on fire, spencer getting punched, direct action during the ruling order's pageants and uncontrollable revolt following it, clashes with the police, is the narrative that the media has tried to spin and continues to try and spin but can't because of the number of people, and the diversity of those people involved? That trump's presidency and fascism threatens the current established order? That cnn throttling the presidency is really funny but not a part of us. That 'the media is usually a good thing' is a pretty dumb thing to say and that the conventional media isn't what's being used but instead it's a network of dispatches and communications closer resembling those found during war, and that's what's helping people hit the streets in attack, both against the fascists, the police, the current established order, and ruling order generally.

BIXX

23rd August 2017, 21:52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryt8Ek79XwA
Be a warrior like comrade Mike Tyson and comrade Mohamed Ali !!

ZombieMarx: YOu are right, what we need is a sort of immoral violent diabolical left, if the right-wing is immoral, violent and diabolical. I don't understand why can't the left-wing be immoral, evil, violent and diabolical. We should destroy, and crush all nazis, all racists. Machiavelli said that if you want to destroy an enemy, you should destroy him completely and very powerful so that the enemy would think it twice before attacking you back.

I've noticed the rise of road-rage, in many USA cities, and many people, usually right-wingers with big vehicles think that people who drive smaller cars are passive and weak. They are pieces of scared trash, they get scared pretty easy. We should not be scared of anybody, not even of Caligula, Hitler, Mussolini. Pinochet, Trump Bush or any stupid piece of redneck hillbillies trash. That's why I advice a program of physical power for leftists, the philosophers of ancient Greece and ancient Rome gave a lot of importance to the diet, the body and the physiology.

We are soldiers, fighters, warriors. People who choose to be marxists, leftists are warriors. That's why even Bernie Sanders is a warrior, even Jill Stein, even Amy Goodman is a warrior, Sean Penn is a warrior. I remember that he punched a camera guy many years ago.

But anyways all leftists should be warriors, fighters, gain physical strength and military skills, and be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year

- - - Updated - - -

I forgot that a great idea for my KKK Nazi friends, who i love so much, is to spray their faces with Sulfuric Acid

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.

TomLeftist

24th August 2017, 02:04

We need a dictatorship of the proletariat exercising death Penalty for the members of the David Duke movement, for all the members of the nazi party,for all the members of the Republican Party, for all the members of the Tea Party. For Ted Nugent, Michael Savage, for all the workers of FOX news, for all the people who like NFL football, who drive hummers, who exercise violence in the highways (road rage), for all the members of the NRA, for all the members of Blackwaters, for all police workers of USA,for many church pastors, for Pat Roberttson, for all the members of the KKK, for all the people who are racists against blacks, latinos, lesbians and gays, immigrants, people with weight-gain problems (who also suffer from being hated) poor people

Ele: That's right, the revolutionary radical leftists, are literally warriors, and we are at war against the right-wing. We cannot feel any love, any pitty, any sadness, against any harm done against the right-wing. Reality is immoral, reality out there is not moralist, morality and religion and good intentions are very dangerous. We should be real violent and agressive against these pieces of human trash, the white european nazis.

I am not racist against european whites. But many people claim, that the northern european ethnicities, people who live in US and are blonde, white, have a sort of barbarian viking rude behavioujr script in their blood, in their DNA. These people cannot be reformed and turned into nice human beings. These king pieces of shits should be destroyed.

That's why I think that one of the best solutions for the anti-racism Malcom X, Martin Luther King, Fred Hampton, Black Lives Matter movement, the Immigration Reform movement, the gays and lesbians movement, along with other sectors who are hated by european whites xenophobic racists people is really to create an Ultra-Leftist Communist Labor Front composed of all the leftists of the USA who are far to the left. And who do not like Bernie Sanders, Green Party, Amy Goodman, Dennis Kucinich and the social-democrat leftists. But who are aware that only a left movement far to the left, once in power can destroy and even send to Death Penalty the racists nazis

There isn't really an 'after the fact' because they're still organizing. If some of them are crying about having their 'lives ruined' I'd have to ask which life? Their life as a fascist that they saw for themselves? If some of them didn't know this was real this is a great wake up call for them to fuck off and never ever go back.

- - - Updated - - -

BIXX: But I think that even though I make a lot of mistakes in praising people who are not real marxists. But at least I have the intention of destroying racism, fascism, capitalism and replacing it with socialism, thru a unity of all the people who hate capitalism racism and who love communism.

It is very hard to offer scientific perfectionist solutions. I am a human and I am supposed to make mistakes. But at least I agree that fascism, nazism, racism capitalism should be destroyed and replaced by socialism and then by state-less communism

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.

TomLeftist

24th August 2017, 02:13

GLF: I agree with you, we need a marxist party who would install a dictatorship, even against leftists who are too perfectionists, many utopian dreamers think that it is very easy to destroy a capitalist state and to replace it by a Disney World socialist Paradise real easy with wealth, health and beauty for everybody. But the best way to destroy capitalism and even utopian leftists, orthodox-marxists puritan-marxists is with a dictatorship. Because humans are evil and it is better to be feared than to be loved.

There are many leftists in wsws.org who are like that, they hate other leftists because when leftists try to be too orthodox, they become hateful people, full of hate, full of puritianism and they turn into worse enemies of communism, than right-wingers

The world is still capitalist, the whole world, because the whole world is full of a left that is divided as a result of group-narcissism, poilitical-party-narcissism, and as a result of the lack of unity and lack of love of many leftists. The left is divided into many tendencies and that's why the right-wing is so powerful and maybe will continue in power for many years, because the left suffers from an excess of group-narcissism, perfectionism, puritanism and sectarianism

I know that it is sort of hard to unite stalinists with anarchists, but the thing is that the left will need to do that, because if the left continues to be so divided into many tendencies, capitalism and imperialism, the KKK, racism, blonde european people trashing non-white people will continue for many years to come

I'm probably going to be ostracized from revleft for this, but I don't care. This is something that's been making me sad. I've been on youtube, twitter, and other sites and pretty much laughing at those silly little Nazis crying about how everyone's being mean to them. Sending them hatemail, threatening them and getting them fired and shit. It's pretty much them against the whole country at this point which I think is a very good and healthy thing. But then I started to kinda feel bad about that. We've never had anything like this before in Charlottesville with the doxing and shit, and I'm finding out that I don't really feel at all comfortable with it. Is it just my nature to not like seeing people who are outnumbered being attacked? I would never defend the far-right on the streets - I would kick their little asses no matter how "outnumbered" they were, but for some reason this just feels different to me.

I talked to my partner about this and he agrees but says that "the people have a right to express themselves" in the fallout. He said that I shouldn't feel sorry for them no matter how outnumbered they are and that I should feel sorry the victims. And that they better learn a lesson.

Outnumbered has nothing to do with it, though. Trump is the most hated man on the planet and I don't feel any need to defend his dumb ass. The bourgeoisie is vastly outnumbered, too, and I dream of war on them. It's not that they're outnumbered - Nazis should always be outnumbered. Yet I don't have an explanation for it... I don't know what's wrong with me. Am I turning into Chomsky?

I can honestly say that outside the context of class-struggle, there isn't a single class of person or a single type of person that I hate. I wish that everyone of those deluded boys would've been rounded up in a padded wagon and sent to a reeducation facility. But we don't have that. And if we're being honest...we'll probably never have it. This is liberal rule, and we're going to be under it for the next thousand years and there's nothing that any of us can ever do to stop it.

I just hate that there's so much pain and hate in this world.

Ele'ill

24th August 2017, 03:07

Antiochus

24th August 2017, 03:40

This site has become a bizarre dumpster fire with users people talking about being "warriors" and others feeling sorry for the nazis:( . This is just what happens when theoretical understanding grounded on thorough historical analysis is discarded and replaced by shit-tier "feelings" and identity politics.

I mean:

racists against blacks, latinos, lesbians and gays, immigrants, people with weight-gain problems (who also suffer from being hated)

Either TomLeftist is a brilliant troll or he might actually be the dumbest pile of shit I've seen alive. Fat people are gross, what are you going to do about it? ;D . Really though, comparing fat people's "plight" to racism? lmao. Again, if you are joking, go on, its more entertaining than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

Oh, actually, I just read the 2nd part of that moron's rant.

I am not racist against european whites. But many people claim, that the northern european ethnicities, people who live in US and are blonde, white, have a sort of barbarian viking rude behavioujr script in their blood, in their DNA. These people cannot be reformed and turned into nice human beings. These king pieces of shits should be destroyed.

Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.

John Nada

24th August 2017, 04:25

Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.

Ele'ill

24th August 2017, 08:52

than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

the arguments you couldn't respond to because rafiq was offline at the time

GLF

24th August 2017, 12:04

I don't feel sorry for actual Nazis. People like Richard Spencer who is a little rich fuck from a privileged family ...do whatever you want to his ass and I don't give two shits. We need a unified working class and they work against that in perpetuation of the status quo. But I always had this idea of the fascists as these tatooed, excon types but many of the pictures that came out of Charolottesvile were of fresh faced young boys many of whom are proletarians and that just bothered the absolute hell out of me. Maybe it's because I'm older than I used to be and this shit effects me more now but I can't help but wonder if there is any hope at all for them. Are they what is meant by lumpenproles?

As for Tom, I agree with some of the stuff he says but I don't like the sound of "dictatorship" even of the proletariat - which is horribly named IMO. And outside the context of revolutionary war (which is inevitable that terrible no-win decisions must be made), I don't support the death penalty and never will...under capitalism, socialism, communism, whatever. No death penalty ever.

ckaihatsu

24th August 2017, 15:19

[I] don't like the sound of "dictatorship" even of the proletariat - which is horribly named IMO.

Really -- ?

I think 'dictatorship of the proletariat' cuts-to-the-chase and succinctly sums-up the idea that there *has* to be working-class *hegemony* over the bourgeoisie. Sure, it's not a *pretty* term, and for some may seem to conflate right-wing 'strongman' politics, with revolutionary-leftist goals, but at least it's technically *accurate* in description since it references a *collective* body, that of the proletariat.

GLF

24th August 2017, 15:34

Really -- ?

I think 'dictatorship of the proletariat' cuts-to-the-chase and succinctly sums-up the idea that there *has* to be working-class *hegemony* over the bourgeoisie. Sure, it's not a *pretty* term, and for some may seem to conflate right-wing 'strongman' politics, with revolutionary-leftist goals, but at least it's technically *accurate* in description since it references a *collective* body, that of the proletariat.
I understand your point and I agree with the Leninist conception of proletarian power absolute - it's just a really shitty name by today's standards because a lot of people don't know what proletariat means, then they hear the word "dictatorship" and think "oh shit, goosestepping commies" and it makes us look kinda bad. Just my opinion - it's something I believe in but not a term I'm apt to use myself unless necessary.

ckaihatsu

24th August 2017, 15:42

I understand your point and I agree with the Leninist conception of proletarian power absolute - it's just a really shitty name by today's standards because a lot of people don't know what proletariat means, then they hear the word "dictatorship" and think "oh shit, goosestepping commies" and it makes us look kinda bad. Just my opinion - it's something I believe in but not a term I'm apt to use myself unless necessary.

A more-palatable alternative may be 'workers power', or 'workers control over social production'.

GLF

24th August 2017, 18:45

A more-palatable alternative may be 'workers power', or 'workers control over social production'.

Absolutely. If I were giving a public interview, for instance, that's precisely the term I'd like to use.

A lot of terms and slogans have proved problematic for me. In my social life anytime certain words pop up (communism, Marx, etc) I find myself spending more time providing historical context on Stalin, the Holodomor, Pol Pot, Castro, etc and less time talking about the shit matters to common every day people. Other leftists on this site and other places disagree with me, but I do believe that if we're to have a new worker's movement, the terminology and aesthetics will have to be modified because we're already going to have an uphill battle breaking through both the liberal bureaucracy and conservative stronghold on rural America...having to rehabilitate terms that common people have been utterly poisoned against all their lives is an extra challenge that we can honestly do without...at least initially.

Ele'ill

24th August 2017, 18:52

ckaihatsu

24th August 2017, 19:09

Absolutely. If I were giving a public interview, for instance, that's precisely the term I'd like to use.

A lot of terms and slogans have proved problematic for me. In my social life anytime certain words pop up (communism, Marx, etc) I find myself spending more time providing historical context on Stalin, the Holodomor, Pol Pot, Castro, etc and less time talking about the shit matters to common every day people. Other leftists on this site and other places disagree with me, but I do believe that if we're to have a new worker's movement, the terminology and aesthetics will have to be modified because we're already going to have an uphill battle breaking through both the liberal bureaucracy and conservative stronghold on rural America...having to rehabilitate terms that common people have been utterly poisoned against all their lives is an extra challenge that we can honestly do without...at least initially.

I'd say that *the economy* is doing our work *for* us -- just ask anyone why there's so much unemployment, income inequality, and people having to 'scrape by'. Ask them what they think about capitalism as it's operating now, and if they've ever thought about some kind of *alternative* to it....

GLF

25th August 2017, 01:45

imo more interesting than having to form anything at all is the inherent form the merging and separation of bodies and lives is taking in response to not just fascism but against the state, like in phoenix a night or so ago, and boston before that. It's action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?

I'd say that *the economy* is doing our work *for* us -- just ask anyone why there's so much unemployment, income inequality, and people having to 'scrape by'. Ask them what they think about capitalism as it's operating now, and if they've ever thought about some kind of *alternative* to it....

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

BIXX

25th August 2017, 02:11

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 05:59

You can be a theorist here on Revleft and on Facebook. But outside if you go out, because maybe you have to go out to buy food, or to any other activity you have to be a Rambo, a warrior, what's wrong with being a warrior. Communists are not a church, are not The Dalai Lama, the whole world is not a church. If you love life a lot, and if you are black, latino, a poor white a gay, lesbian or any other oppressed sector, you better be brave, and get into a program of either weight-lifting and-or personal defense. Malcom X and many other leaders of the black left and even social-democrats like Thom Hartmann have stated that when blacks, latinos, muslims go out in any city of USA they better be prepared and take defensive measures in order not to be killed. Because dying is not cool, being a life is cooler than dying

I am not trying to be contrarian with you, about the need of theory. Of course we need a marxist theory, the creationg of a proletarian party, a united ultra-leftist party that would unite the leftists of USA who are far to the left and willing to support an ultra-leftist political program, a workers government

This site has become a bizarre dumpster fire with users people talking about being "warriors" and others feeling sorry for the nazis:( . This is just what happens when theoretical understanding grounded on thorough historical analysis is discarded and replaced by shit-tier "feelings" and identity politics.

I mean:

Either TomLeftist is a brilliant troll or he might actually be the dumbest pile of shit I've seen alive. Fat people are gross, what are you going to do about it? ;D . Really though, comparing fat people's "plight" to racism? lmao. Again, if you are joking, go on, its more entertaining than reading some moron have arguments about ecology go over their pea-sized brains.

Oh, actually, I just read the 2nd part of that moron's rant.

Let me guess admins, no ban/sequestering of someone calling for a bizarre genocide based on something he read on 4chan? K. Continue to permit this forum to go into the depths of hell and then complain about why people no longer use it.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 06:07

I dont understand how can many people, even leftists be so anti-fighting, anti-warrior spirit. Maybe the excess of moralism, religious education, family values education, social ethics, institutional educational systems, laws etc. All that have made people hate violence. I don't understand why people think that violence is wrong. In this world nothing is right or wrong, violence is not evil, it is good if used in the right way, like in order to protect the weak and oppressed against the rich oppressors.

The excess of moralism within the left can also be dangerous. In a movie Clint Eastwood was fighting against a karate guy, and the karate guy, told Clint Eastwood that he knew karate, and Clint Eastwood said: "I know winchester" and pulled out a winchester rifle and killed the karate guy.

The left, the black liberation left should be armed, should be immoralist, violent and brave. The whole world, the hisotyr of the world is really a history of a permanent war, and we should be warriors, 24 hours a day, 365 days per year until we destroy capitalism in the whole world. The paradise lies at the shadows of the swords

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 06:13

BIXX: You are right, when I said that leftists should be strong and brave warriors. I didn't mean to support any organized battle against the present nazis of the Republican Party and of the Donald Trump movement. What i mean is for leftists to be brave and warriors, in order to protect themselves when they are doing their regular activities, like buyin good, working and going out.

I am like you, I really think that what the left needs is an orderly rational marxism program, to create a United Marxist Ultra-Leftist Front, composed of all the leftists of the USA who are not social-democrats, who are willing to support a left program that is far to the left.

I am all for that, with orderly organized book-reading of leftist scientific literature in most working class communities. But there is a problem, the problem I see is that the ultra-leftists lack the necessary economic resources for that. While social-demorat leftists have more economic power. But maybe we can plan a system to get the necessary dollars we need for that

Don't worry, Donald Trump is making americans hate capitalism

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

ckaihatsu

25th August 2017, 14:15

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

Yes, and well-said.

Personally I'd welcome any efforts in the here-and-now to 'hash-out' as much as possible -- meaning potential, realistic *logistics* -- for the time of proletarian revolution and beyond, since, as you're pointing out, it's also a 'selling point' so-to-speak. People should be given *options* as to *how* approaches may be done for taking the whole thing off of the market system, since that would leave a situational vacuum without alternatives being spelled-out. (That's been a major motivation for my efforts at diagrams, too, particularly the 'labor credits' formulation.)

Is it a failure of the left or is it a success by the spectacular left, liberals and radicals alike?

Or, does it even matter? I mean, look at what's happening in the US at the moment- people are engaging in actions as their new lives, emerging just long enough to provide solidarity and attack against the state and capital, then retreating into their "normal" lives, only to emerge again later to repeat the process of attack. Do we need a program? I don't think so- these people certainly don't. So why should we push ourselves into the same limited capacity, and enjoy our positions as the conscious elements of the communist project and act as the conscious, or as we might call it a vanguard, should- being the one's on the front line of action.

This is a good point as well -- while time is always against us, we don't want to be too hasty, risking ending up in a *substitutionist* role "on behalf" of the working class, when it's supposed to be a whole-class thing.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 23:28

JohnNada: wow how smart are your comments. Do you think that by hating other leftist comrades you will overthrow capitalism and racism? Do you think that if you are attacked by a hoarde of nazis thugs, you can destroy them with a book of Karl Marx and Lenin?

What a piece of trash you are

TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 23:35

GLF: I am not pessimist about mankind, but however I think that the cause of why the right-wing, The Republican Party, The Democratic Party is so powerful. And will probably will continue in power for decades to come, is that left-wingers, ultra-left wingers in USA behave like right-wingers, even in this forum, they cannot contain their narcissism, sectarianism, and their intolerance against other leftist, ultra-leftist comrades like John Nada, who called me a "troll" just for writing my own personal opinions about how can blacks and oppressed defend themselves against white racists

These radical leftists, the sectarian leftists like John Nada, and the people who write comments in the website World Socialist Website are unfriendly, even evil and abusive against other leftists. The trotskists of World Socialist Web Site were even happy that Hugo Chavez died.

These people are destroying the left, because when the oppressed try to join radical communist parties and realize that the majority of radical leftist parties are full of assholes, mean people. They then go back to voting for Republicans and Democrats

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'action taken as life in the present, and not separate from it'.

I'm probably being dense. Just the same, can you please elaborate?

I find it very encouraging. I would probably guess that if they did a poll right now and the only options were, "Do you like Capitalism, Yes or No", over 50% would say no.

The only problem is that these people think that there are already solution in the works and/or being pushed for in the form of mixed-economical reforms. What they don't know is that because these so-called "solutions" have no LTV basis, fundamental inequality will just morph along accordingly persisting in different forms. And the public ignorance here is a failure on the part of the left.

TomLeftist

25th August 2017, 23:56

John Nada: Who or what gives you the right to order me what I should write or not, you piece of crap. If you were here I would force you to respect my arguments and opinions. But since you are not here, I am not able to punch you real hard and destroy your teeths and your ribs !!

TomLeftist is a sockpuppet of a user that's been banned repeatedly over years. I think they went by TrotskyistMarxist and AmilarCarbral . For some reason, they keep coming back with the same act and play ignorant each time. Not even an entertaining or original troll either.

- - - Updated - - -

ckaihatsu: We are doomed waiting for a change toward communism, because of the extreme hatred, extreme narcissism, group-narcissism, tendency-narcissism, party narcissism that exists within the radical left. I thought that creating a united ultra-leftist front made of the different ultra-leftist tendencies was easy. But the leaders of the ultra-leftist parties are arrogant and stuck-up and will not put away their ideological purities in order to destroy the capitalist system. They are too proud, too arrogant for that. So iam affraid that we will have to suck the free market capitalist system for a long time

Yes, and well-said.

Personally I'd welcome any efforts in the here-and-now to 'hash-out' as much as possible -- meaning potential, realistic *logistics* -- for the time of proletarian revolution and beyond, since, as you're pointing out, it's also a 'selling point' so-to-speak. People should be given *options* as to *how* approaches may be done for taking the whole thing off of the market system, since that would leave a situational vacuum without alternatives being spelled-out. (That's been a major motivation for my efforts at diagrams, too, particularly the 'labor credits' formulation.)

This is a good point as well -- while time is always against us, we don't want to be too hasty, risking ending up in a *substitutionist* role "on behalf" of the working class, when it's supposed to be a whole-class thing.

BIXX

26th August 2017, 02:17

John Nada: Who or what gives you the right to order me what I should write or not, you piece of crap. If you were here I would force you to respect my arguments and opinions. But since you are not here, I am not able to punch you real hard and destroy your teeths and your ribs !!

Lol, you sound like you have the "warrior spirit" TomLeftist, you sound very tough. You wanna see how tough I am?

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills.

I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words.

You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands.

Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue.

But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.

You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Btw, anyone have the leftist version of this? I saw it posted here way back but couldn't find it.

TomLeftist

26th August 2017, 02:22

I wanna be a communist superhero and not an utopian communist like you are, thinking that getting drunk on coffee, and soft drinks, while offending all right-wingers, while bashing and trashing Glenn Beck, Donald Trump from your bedroom will destroy capitalism.

I respect your choice of staying at home and relying only on theory because you can buy and read 1000 communist books but without weapons without military action you will not be able to overthrow any capitalist state

If you think you can overthrow capitalism with books and just theories, all out from the comfort of your air-conditioned bedroom. Try to do that, after you do that, call me so I can get free medical care from your new communist government

This all sounds like a fantasy that has no basis in the reality of what communism is and is more based around being some sort of superhero. And furthermore a lot of the people you reference as people we should respect as "warriors" are real shit and not communist in any way.

BIXX

26th August 2017, 02:29

This is a theory forum, we aren't allowed to talk about weapons/militaristic organizing etc... for very valid reasons (legal concerns). If you were a "communist warrior" you'd know that, and keep your trap shut about weapons and military action. Why would you want to project what you were going to do in the first place if you were doing that sort of shit?

TomLeftist

26th August 2017, 02:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA

This song is for my brother BIXX, John Nada and some comrades-brothers that i might had differences here in theory, but in reality we should be together for ever and ever until the communist revolution !!

BIXX: You are my brother, my father, my cousin, my family !!

You and John Nada are my brothers, even if he might have offended me, and I offended youj and him.

Me and you fighting is not smart, is not good. You and me have to be united not enemies. The whole ultra-left is already too divided and the only powerful left right now is Bernie Sanders and The Green Party.

You, me John Nada just had some differences but you, me and everybody here is my family.

I LOVE YOU, JOHN NADA AND ALL THE PEOPLE HERE IN REVLEFT

Lol, you sound like you have the "warrior spirit" TomLeftist, you sound very tough. You wanna see how tough I am?

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little *****? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills.

I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words.

You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands.

Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue.

But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it.

You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Btw, anyone have the leftist version of this? I saw it posted here way back but couldn't find it.

BIXX

26th August 2017, 09:06

ckaihatsu

26th August 2017, 13:26

ckaihatsu: We are doomed waiting for a change toward communism, because of the extreme hatred, extreme narcissism, group-narcissism, tendency-narcissism, party narcissism that exists within the radical left. I thought that creating a united ultra-leftist front made of the different ultra-leftist tendencies was easy. But the leaders of the ultra-leftist parties are arrogant and stuck-up and will not put away their ideological purities in order to destroy the capitalist system. They are too proud, too arrogant for that. So iam affraid that we will have to suck the free market capitalist system for a long time

Well, I *hear* you, and I certainly tend to agree -- many, once they find themselves in and around politics, take on the *celebrity* culture / 'community' that attaches-itself-to / accompanies the realm of politics. In this way the political culture *devolves* from being about revolutionary politics and goals, to a diffused-interest spectacle of personages and hangers-on, because people of this sort are more interested in themselves in the here-and-now rather than moving society past this stubborn status-quo, to a world where social life would be entirely unencumbered and directly-supportive for all.

Radicals, yourself excepted, tend to face towards the nationalist 'middle' of the political spectrum, and copy its privileged social dynamics for their own enclaves, imitating its personal-power status structures and patronage networks, as a lifestyle 'alternative' to the everyday capitalist economy -- understandable but disastrous.

I myself tend to call this dynamic 'tribalism', though semantically it's not the best term to use because of obvious default racial associations and historical baggage, but it's tough to find a better-descriptive term, unfortunately.

G.U.T.S.U.C., Individualism - Tribalism

http://s6.postimg.org/izeyfeh9t/150403_2_Individualism_Tribalism_aoi_36_tiff_x.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/680s8w7hp/full/)

GLF

26th August 2017, 16:29

I dont understand how can many people, even leftists be so anti-fighting, anti-warrior spirit. Maybe the excess of moralism, religious education, family values education, social ethics, institutional educational systems, laws etc. All that have made people hate violence. I don't understand why people think that violence is wrong.

Violence is wrong because it hurts people, Tom. Our fight is against institutions and conceptions, and extends into the physical arena only when absolutely necessary.

If as communists we go around hurting people whose lives we ourselves arbitrarily deem forfeit or a hindrance to our 'cause', then by imposing our own authority we actually invalidate our authority in the cause for which we fight (the elimination of authority itself). In other words, we lose any moral high-ground and end up with nothing better to offer society than the present status-quo. Which leads me to the next point:

I wanna be a communist superhero

Being a communist isn't about personal strength or will to power - hyper individualistic and fascistic processes of thought. It's about inspiring mass-action through political agitation and the fostering of class-consciousness. The great vanguard of the people educate and agitate first and foremost - it's not our prerogative to lash out in violence nor rule. It's the great masses themselves whose strength and power we embrace, and it's the great masses themselves that must play the leading role in the coming changes.

GLF

28th August 2017, 04:55

Since we're talking about nazis, I have a question: why do people differentiate between white separatism, white nationalism, and white supremacism? Has anyone noticed people doing this?

I don't understand it. Why would you want segregation (white separatism) if not for believing whites to be superior? Why would you want a whites only nation (white nationalism) if not for believing whites to be superior? It's obvious that the only reason these people would want these things is if they feel that something of great value is lost through miscegenation. Even opposition to multiculturalism and immigration are products of white supremacist thinking, if not outright white supremacism.

Yet more and more, people are giving in to the white supremacists and calling them by their chosen designation. I've seen interviews where a white supremacist takes exception to being called a white supremacist yet the interviewer just concedes the point when they should challenge them immediately. I believe it's a big mistake to make any sort of distinction between white supremacists, white separatists, white nationalists. And that more and more people are doing it - even Wikipedia makes these distinctions - is very dangerous.

ckaihatsu

3rd September 2017, 13:48

Jacksonville fight to remove the Confederate statues continues (http://fightbacknews.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=a29530af96a02fc55d345e735&id=25176e0ea9&e=d323598fe4)

By Mike Todd

Jacksonville, FL - Around 200 people gathered for six hours at the August 22 city council meeting to speak about removing Confederate monuments and names from public spaces. The week before, in response to the white supremacist terrorism in Charlottesville, Virginia, Jacksonville City Council President Brosche said she wanted to inventory all Confederate monuments, markers, and memorials so they can be moved off public property and into museums or other settings, where they can be “historically contextualized.” When her press release went public, death threats started flooding into her email from Confederate sympathizers.

TakeEmDownJax has led the way in the fight to remove the Confederacy from Jacksonville, uniting multiple local groups, including the Jacksonville Community Action Committee, Veterans for Peace Jax, Young Workers of Jacksonville, and the Women’s March Jacksonville Chapter. The Tampa TakeEmDown coalition drove four hours to join the fight. This united effort was successful in outnumbering their opposition.

The arguments in support of keeping the monuments came from people repeatedly trying to convince everyone in the room they personally weren’t racist. One woman informed the council, “My daughter’s best friend is black, I’m not racist, but I am of my heritage and these monuments should stay.” This was easily refuted by point out what the white supremacists did in Charlottesville defending those monuments.

Syd Eastwin let everyone know, “Just the fact that this is still something up for debate in the year 2017 by this city council, is a clear sign people care about dead racist statues more than Black lives.” The heated statements continued with the opposition involved until the last quarter of the night when the pro-Confederates were outnumbered byTakeEmDownJax’s supporters.

This united effort to remove the symbols of the Confederacy from public spaces continues to fight in the form of direct action events and call-in days to the mayor and city council members. The next open forum Jacksonville City Council meeting is on will address this issue Sept. 12.

Read more News and Views from the Peoples Struggle at http://www.fightbacknews.org. You can write to us at [email protected]

redz

5th September 2017, 01:16

Multiracial working class must fight the Alt-Right

19782

https://realityanalysisnotes.wordpress.com/2017/08/27/multiracial-working-class-must-fight-the-alt-right/

From the link ...

Revolutionary Marxists are convinced that to carry forward an effective – and ultimately successful – struggle against fascism, white supremacy, and the emergent Alt-Right requires waging a vigorous effort to mobilize the multiracial, multi-ethnic working class.

This means, say Marxists, reaching out not only to organized workers in trade unions, but also unorganized workers in non-unionized worksites as well. In this regard, it’s critical for militant socialists, Antifa activists, and other radical leftists, where possible, to seek unionized jobs themselves. This opens opportunities to pursue efforts to win union members’ support for anti-racist, anti-fascist, class-struggle, and pro-revolutionary positions and actions by such unions.

An influx of radical leftists into organized labor could also help build support among multiracial unionized workers for a fighting class-struggle program.

Ele'ill

5th September 2017, 01:33

what does that article have to do with the thread

perardua

11th September 2017, 09:43

TomLeftist: You speak as though fascism is some sort of mental disease. More likely, reactionism is the default position of ordinary people - in the abscence of class consciousness that is where you will land usually. And if you do believe this, why is marxist theory of concern to you? If reactionaries cannot be reasoned with, why assume that anyone else can - including other leftists?

Meaning: It must be assumed of every person one meets that you both have the same capacity for reason and comprehension. Indeed if this is not the case, it very soon bears itself out in the discussion itself. But it is the actual discussion that is the point, the particularities of your persons are secondary. A fascist does not think like this, they will say "He's a jew, so naturally everything he says secretly serves jew interests." or "He has low IQ, so everything he says is disqualified by default, regardless of what he is actually saying."

Obviously, fascist violence should be confronted and subdued uncompromisingly wherever it turns up, but that is a different situation. A difference in degree, at least.

The way you frame this sounds way too much as if wearing the right colors is enough to guarantee that you can trust others' opinions are on the level.

I know many communists hate to talk about "human nature", but human nature is only nonsense when it is used to mean something that determines us and rules over us. Again, a racist will say "Well, we're all a bit racist, it's just the way we evolved." A radical will admit that yes we probably are a bit racist by default, but that this is no more an inevitable part of us than anything else, it can start to be critiqued and transformed. But to begin transformation, one has to admit the problem exists. And racism is just an expression of what we might call the primal level of in-group/out-group mentality. Which again is obviously not something fixed, the in-group can be expanded and so on. But the tendency is with us always, in every situation. It's just a way that our nervous systems conceptualize the world, that we have to learn to manage and work with. I often see a curious blindness among leftists that they are as prone as anyone to tribethink, vanity, personal pettiness and so on, even though the history of their own movement bears this out more than well. But I digress.

I agree to an extent that revolutionaries need to cultivate a warrior spirit. But remember that "politics is war by other means". Actual carnage results from an escalation of a conflict that could and should have been solved several steps beforehand. I'm not saying that such things should be avoided at any cost, but it seems that you immediately seek this conclusion. There are more ways to be a warrior than in a fistfight or in the trenches. The reason why The Art of War is such an enduring text is that its principles are applicable in any area of life.

ckaihatsu

21st September 2017, 18:59

I think we should *want* the socialist state to have that power, but I'm more concerned with the real-world *logistics* of such -- 're-education facilities' sounds a lot like *jail*, and the *staffing* of such jail-like facilities would be an inherently *political* task, and not a material-productive one. The revolutionary workers would have to set up a social *institution* of some kind for the organization of personnel to staff these facilities, and there would have to be a collective, but decisive, decision-making process over who is sent to re-education programs, and who isn't, and why.

So basically it would be 'messy', but I could readily see that worldwide conditions of protracted open class struggle could objectively *call* for such impositions of revolutionary 'authority', as for the use of re-education facilities. I just don't feel confident that such fixed-institution-type practices would be logistically clean or worth the socio-political organization that such institutions would require for their functioning.

Maybe more-of a 'quarantine'-type approach would be better, but that, too, would be a fixed institution of sorts, with various kinds of messy overhead, as well.

After some additional thought on this topic I came up with a possible approach: Counterrevolutionaries could be 'quarantined' inside of existing *skyscrapers*, with an outer wall and a motion-detecting *perimeter* well within the exterior wall. There could be a conical-shaped *netting* around each skyscraper (and within the motion-detecting perimeter), flared outward, so that anyone falling on the outside of each skyscraper -- for whatever reason -- would have a soft landing and would slide downward and outward, triggering the perimeter. (And/or they could just re-enter the building and resume "regular" life there.)

The idea is that this measure would be *temporary*, with all of the amenities of life and living provided-for daily inside such a structure, so that such people under 'collective house-arrest' would feel relatively comfortable in the interim until the proletarian revolution would be completed. Doubtlessly there would also be maintenance-type tasks within each building, as well, to keep people busy if they wanted.

Security cameras on every floor could broadcast their live video feeds out onto the Internet, so that informal voluntary revolutionary participation could be done by anyone, watching the various feeds to keep track of things there. And, derived from such Internet-based involvement could be the makings of an organic mass voluntary participation -- an 'emergent' 'institution' overseeing and tending-to each given skyscraper, with proceedings ongoing on a RevLeft-type discussion board for cooperation and decisive actions given whatever situation.

Perhaps the most complex aspect of this approach -- as with the whole revolution itself -- would be keeping policy *consistent* across each and every skyscraper facility, so that any possible discontinuities would be solidly ironed-out. The overall idea here is to be as humane as possible to as many class enemy personnel as possible so that they're excluded from active real-world politics, but without antagonizing any of them personally so that they could claim an inherently messy *social* situation and treatment. Once the revolution is completed all such prisoners could then be released because they and their reactionary ideas would no longer have any traction in such a fully post-capitalist social order.