Do you believe in God???

[Y2A]

Not Christianity, nor Judaism or Islam. Just God. Do you believe there is a God?

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 12:49 AM
Not Christianity, nor Judaism or Islam. Just God. Do you believe there is a God?
Scientifically and logically I believe that the universe has a Cause. Most capitalists in the Western world refer to this First Cause as God.

However, political philosophy overrides science.

"Communism begins from the outset with Atheism." -- Karl Marx Private Property and Communism

[Y2A]

I just do not understand why "Communists" must be atheists??? I can understand opposing organized religion but what is wrong with just belief in a God?

[Fidel Castro]

"God is a projection of human aspirations"

I used to believe in God, because that is what we are taught to believe in our youth. However, I am becomming more and more sceptical.

I'm not quite an athiest, yet, but I am certainly leaning less and less towards the idea of a God.

[Fidel Castro]

I can understand opposing organized religion but what is wrong with just belief in a God?

As far as I can tell, it was mainly organised religion that Marx was concerned with rather than the existence of God.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 01:05 AM
"God is a projection of human aspirations"

I used to believe in God, because that is what we are taught to believe in our youth. However, I am becomming more and more sceptical.

I'm not quite an athiest, yet, but I am certainly leaning less and less towards the idea of a God.
It's not about doing what your are taught in your youth. Hell I was raised Catholic and none of that stuck. The fact remains that there is no way to disprove God's existence nor is there a way to prove it. I guess to each his own.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 01:04 AM
I just do not understand why "Communists" must be atheists??? I can understand opposing organized religion but what is wrong with just belief in a God?
Well this is just part of the hypocrasy of many communist.
In latin america many of the guerillas where, if not formed then helped alot by Catholic priest who believed in communism? anyone see the irony in this.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by el_profe+Mar 2 2004, 01:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Mar 2 2004, 01:12 AM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 01:04 AM
I just do not understand why "Communists" must be atheists??? I can understand opposing organized religion but what is wrong with just belief in a God?
Well this is just part of the hypocrasy of many communist.
In latin america many of the guerillas where, if not formed then helped alot by Catholic priest who believed in communism? anyone see the irony in this. [/b]
Religions have been used for thousands of years by the ruling class to justify their position, for priests to steal, and overall to make people forget about their freedom and their whole life to reach paradise. It was also used to discredit other beliefs, to control people&#39;s behaviours, to resist discoveries and improvements, to stop freedom of thought, to make people believe the big brother&#39;s watching you every time (after all most monotheist religions believe in a totalitarian god, and if you don&#39;t you are an evil heretic, which happens to be somebody who criticizes the mystical establishment. Also religious are usually brainwashed people who can&#39;t prove their god&#39;s existance, but as you can&#39;t prove it doesn&#39;t exist, then it exists, or so they say. Religions steal from people by making them believe that they are the only way to be saved from x thing (death, eternal suffering, economical crisis).
Many of those "leftist" religious are those who believe that Jesus was a communist. Many people actually believe that. There&#39;s a difference between this religious and the most reactionary ones (those who put God, authority, and conservative "moralist" capitalism above what Jesus did or said, and hate communism, especially for their atheism).

My oppinion is that religions are a lie, are completely irrational, authoritarian, useless, and they reduce human beings into stupid sheeps following a ficticious dictator, and want to make us believe some are the "chosen". Religions are mythology, and a way to explain things that are almost unexplainable.

[Y2A]

Who ever said anything about "religion"??? We are talking about God not religion. Now El Infiltrado, do you believe in God&#39;s existance???

[synthesis]

This is one issue I don&#39;t see fit to quote Marx on.

"A boss in Heaven means a boss on Earth... if God really did exist, he would have to be abolished."
-Mikhail Bakunin

In other words, a master in Heaven is far too often used as justification to assert one&#39;s own authority over others.

"The dude who made us wants us to rule over others, and more importantly, he wants me to rule over you."

Hell, even G. Dubya thinks God gave him his right to rule.

The idea of abolishing hierarchy is unthinkable until religion - and God - is proved irrational, illogical, and completely baseless to every person living in a Socialist society. In my opinion, we cannot prove whether God exists, or whether He does not exist, but I think acting to prevent people from using His putative existence as a rationalization for a hierarchy would generally be a good thing.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 01:46 AM
Who ever said anything about "religion"??? We are talking about God not religion. Now El Infiltrado, do you believe in God&#39;s existance???
In fact, the point of my message was giving some simple views of why most people here (not those restricted to OI) are atheists, after all it was you who posted:


I just do not understand why "Communists" must be atheists???

el_profe replied, and I gave my views on both things.

Concerning god, it&#39;s impossible for such a thing to exist. I mean, before a god created everything (as most religions claim) there was nothing, but still he existed, which is impossible&#33; Another option is giving some stupid view of how the world was created out of god&#39;s farts and such things. I think that some forces can exist in this world, but not gods. Gods are 100% mythology. Different natural forces may exist but I doubt they think, they marry other gods, and specialize on a certain thing (examples: the sun, the sea, etc.), and it&#39;s even less possible that those forces send appear and send sons, and control everything on a 1984 style. So, no gods for me please.

[Y2A]

But then how does the world exist??? How did we come to be???

[redstar2000]

I just do not understand why "Communists" must be atheists??? I can understand opposing organized religion but what is wrong with just belief in a God?

What is wrong with "just belief in Santa Claus"? Or "just belief in superior or inferior races"? Or "just belief in elves and orcs"?

Marxism starts with the premise that the real world is all there is because if that premise is not true, then it leads to endless absurdities.

The world becomes completely unknowable...and therefore unchangeable by any purposeful human activity. (Note, by the way, that the latest fashionable capitalist mythology -- post-modernism -- is a secular version of the same hypothesis...an unknowable world is an unchangeable one by human effort.)

In a "godly" universe, nothing happens except "by the will of God"...so why bother to change anything or try to? Pray and if your request meets with divine approval, everything will "fall into place".

And if it doesn&#39;t, well, that&#39;s "God&#39;s will" too&#33;


The fact remains that there is no way to disprove God&#39;s existence nor is there a way to prove it. I guess to each his own.

No, it&#39;s not just a matter of harmless opinion. Religion has a track record...and it is very reactionary indeed.

And, by the way, the burden of proof is on the believers...if you offer some positive assertion about the nature of the universe, the burden of proof is on you&#33;

Atheists are not obligated to "prove" that "God" doesn&#39;t exist...any more than we are obligated to "prove" that elves and orcs don&#39;t exist.


...In Latin America many of the guerrillas were, if not formed, then helped a lot by Catholic priest[s] who believed in communism

In the "demon-haunted world" of el profe, some guerrilla who calls himself a "communist" must really be one...and if a Catholic priest helps him, that must be because the priest "believes in communism".

No, el profe, most of the guerrillas in Latin America (past and present) may well sincerely believe they are "communists"...but, in fact, they are not&#33;

And any priest that helps them does so not because he "believes in communism" but because he wants a "foot in the door" if the guerrillas win...that&#39;s all.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[RedComrade]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:58 PM
But then how does the world exist??? How did we come to be???
This question that passes for the stumper when posed to atheists really proves nothing for the theist, even if this question were unanswerable (it&#39;s not, think Big Bang) then the theist now has to answer how doest God exist, how did he come to be? At least there is proof that the world is here even if were not able to completely prove its&#39; origins, the same cannott be said for (a) God.

[Comrade Zeke]

I do not beilive in god stoped Beiliving in all that Jesus proporganda long ago. BUT I am a Pagan and I reuglary pray to the great Olympian gods and goddeses because they are more close to us Humans then the so called "Cristain God" The Olympains were the first gods....They will forever be the only true gods and the evils of the greedy Cristians and their god can not wipe out a 4,000 year old relgion that was last used by the Roman Empire. So I say I beilive in gods no God lol..but I really don&#39;t like to talk about religion. :(

[FatFreeMilk]

Richard Wright put into words what I feel in Black Boy pretty well :

"I had never settled in my mind whether I believed in God or not; His existence or nonexistance never worried me. I reasoned that if there did exist an all-wise, all powerfull God who knew the beginning and the end, who meted out justice to all, who controlled the destiny of man, this God would surley know that I doubted his existence and He would laugh at my foolish denial of Him. And if there was no God at all, then why all the commotion? I could not imagine God pausing in His guidance of unimaginably vast worlds to bother with me."

But I guess my position in the matter will change fairly shortly.

[cubist]

maybe,

thats all i can say, i don&#39;t believe science has the answer yet but relgion has made a mockery of the concept of creationism

[shyguywannadie]

Communists want to have total freedom, we are all equal.

I am a communist, I do not bow down to anyone, man or god, if their is a god, which i believe doesnt exist, I would still reject him as I am not going to worship anyone, no-one is better than me and i am better than no-one.

God(if exists) = a ruler.

Communists will not be ruled by anyone.



Therefore real communists cannot believe in the existance of a god.


Because we dont understand something does than mean we should make up rediculous stories?
2000 years ago technology was not what it is today.
According to the bible, god made man out of dust.
However, reletively recent discoveries suggest we actually evolved from chimps.
Thats how we got here.

However if you are talking about planets etc then....
Planets are "created" and "die" all time, there are billions of planets.
Even our own solor system is destined for destruction in however many million years time, teh sun will explode killing all life in the system.
It&#39;s the way things are, god didnt create the earth, he also didnt create humans from dust, just read it (Genesis - Bible).

What a load of shit&#33;

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

My personal opinion is that without proof for or against Gods existence the question has no relevence to communism unless in relation to organised religion.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 04:17 AM










And, by the way, the burden of proof is on the believers...if you offer some positive assertion about the nature of the universe, the burden of proof is on you&#33;

Atheists are not obligated to "prove" that "God" doesn&#39;t exist...any more than we are obligated to "prove" that elves and orcs don&#39;t exist.


I&#39;m sorry this is BS&#33;&#33; The burden of proof lies on both the Atheist/Agnostic and the Believer,
Both are making a &#39;truth claim&#39;, you are claiming to know that God does not exist and the believer is claiming a God does you are both making a claim to &#39;know&#39; something&#33;&#33;

Dialectical thinking ( a marxist approach) means that believeing in God is not feasible.

I made a claim in another thread that I could fight both sides (being an ex-Christian myself) I wasn&#39;t going to get involved in this thread because this kinda topic can get quite serious, what we must remeber is that each has his/her own beliefs and that we must respect that and not resort to name calling because one does not agree with another, I think I will just jump in ( as I have) when I feel a statement is made that I think is un-justified and it is not a personal attack on anyone, just an observation. Thanx ECG
Does God exist??
Do we?
Am I a man dreaming I&#39;m a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I&#39;m a man? Someone help me out on the quote there who was it?? Dhali Lama???

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Just to clear one thing up, agnosticism is a position which declares that neither can prove God exists, sitting on the fence if you will.

So as one I can safely declare the burden on proof is not on the agnostic to prove God dosent exist.

[Postteen]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)[email protected] 2 2004, 04:53 AM

.

Concerning god, it&#39;s impossible for such a thing to exist. I mean, before a god created everything (as most religions claim) there was nothing, but still he existed, which is impossible&#33; Another option is giving some stupid view of how the world was created out of god&#39;s farts and such things. I think that some forces can exist in this world, but not gods. Gods are 100% mythology. Different natural forces may exist but I doubt they think, they marry other gods, and specialize on a certain thing (examples: the sun, the sea, etc.), and it&#39;s even less possible that those forces send appear and send sons, and control everything on a 1984 style. So, no gods for me please.
That&#39;s excactly my opinion&#33;I just think that God&#39;s story is very old (in fact since man begun to talk)and I cannot believe.Believe me; i&#39;ve tried but all the clues for his existance don&#39;t match.We all know the origin of the human being.Bible(or whatever)never stated something called "evolution"of the species as far as I know.And that&#39;s reasonable&#33;Paeople then hadn&#39;t that kind of knowledge&#33;However as I have already said I believe in Jesus&#39;s message,for love,peace,etc.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Dictionary definition states:
agnostic:n. person who believes that nothing is or can be known of existence of God or any but material phenomena.



Therefore doubting the exsistence of God. An agnostic cannot say a theist has no proof if they can come up with something that is undeniable&#33; They simply believe that there is no proof, so, still denying the existence of God.

Atheism: n. belief that no God exists.

You can&#39;t get me on this subject Geist :D
A good source on this subject is here:.Good Source (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Pastor%5EGene%5ECook%2C%5EJr%2E)
look for the radio debates of this speaker.

[cubist]

ECG, youre an ex-christian too? pm me regarding why i am purely interested to see why you gave up i don&#39;t want to spark a debate i am an ex believer too,


now as for the bit about allowing peope opinions, i agree everyone is allowed to believe as they do, no-one has a right either, way.

Redstar they may not have to justify gods existance but to proove his inexistance is impossible,

pro example of said scenario,

i am looking for my socks, i shout to my partner, where are my socks, she says in the top draw, i look and i can&#39;t see them, i shout back they are not. it is easier for her to walk up the stairs and show me where they are, than for me to turn the room upside down to proove they are not. effectively you would have to search the universe for ever to be sure god doesn&#39;t exist, but you would only have to experience the euphoria felt by christians to understand why they believe.


i know its a silly hypothetical example that kinda avoids the truth of there is no evidence of gods existance over than the doctrine produced over years of indirect christian rule

Now i am not changing my tune, religion is BS for anything other than personal enlightenment and well-being, it should have no "ethical" say in national policy and needs to be monitored to prevent religious indoctrination of people for the purpose of political gain. e.g. (al&#39;queda) islam is fine but bin-laden has been allowed to interpret islam to create a dangerous terrorist a religous one, someone who dies for a cause(sp?) which they believe will do them better in the after life,

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Ernestocheguevara+Mar 2 2004, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ernestocheguevara @ Mar 2 2004, 06:29 PM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 04:17 AM










And, by the way, the burden of proof is on the believers...if you offer some positive assertion about the nature of the universe, the burden of proof is on you&#33;

Atheists are not obligated to "prove" that "God" doesn&#39;t exist...any more than we are obligated to "prove" that elves and orcs don&#39;t exist.


I&#39;m sorry this is BS&#33;&#33; The burden of proof lies on both the Atheist/Agnostic and the Believer,
Both are making a &#39;truth claim&#39;, you are claiming to know that God does not exist and the believer is claiming a God does you are both making a claim to &#39;know&#39; something&#33;&#33;

Dialectical thinking ( a marxist approach) means that believeing in God is not feasible.

I made a claim in another thread that I could fight both sides (being an ex-Christian myself) I wasn&#39;t going to get involved in this thread because this kinda topic can get quite serious, what we must remeber is that each has his/her own beliefs and that we must respect that and not resort to name calling because one does not agree with another, I think I will just jump in ( as I have) when I feel a statement is made that I think is un-justified and it is not a personal attack on anyone, just an observation. Thanx ECG
Does God exist??
Do we?
Am I a man dreaming I&#39;m a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I&#39;m a man? Someone help me out on the quote there who was it?? Dhali Lama??? [/b]
Exactly&#33; I never said I believed in God. I am agnostic. There is no way to possiblly know if there is a God or if there is not. So the burden of proof is on both the believers and the atheists, for it is both of these groups that claim that they know the truth about the existence or lack there of, of God.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 02:39 PM
ECG, youre an ex-christian too? pm me regarding why i am purely interested to see why you gave up i don&#39;t want to spark a debate i am an ex believer too,
i too am an ex-christian. for now i consider myself a deist.

this is my definition of god: god is the cosmic intelligence; the original causality of the universe: impersonal, impartial, and infinite.

at the same time, i believe our universe is governed by the natural laws and not by divine intervention.

[redstar2000]

The burden of proof lies on both the Atheist/Agnostic and the Believer. Both are making a &#39;truth claim&#39;; you are claiming to know that God does not exist and the believer is claiming a God does; you are both making a claim to &#39;know&#39; something&#33;&#33;

So how about those elves and orcs? Am I also making a "truth claim" when I say that the lack of evidence for elves and orcs results from the fact that elves and orcs don&#39;t exist?

Or angels? Or demons? Or the gods and goddesses of the Greek-Roman pantheon?

Your position on this is nonsensical.


...what we must remember is that each has his/her own beliefs and that we must respect that and not resort to name calling because one does not agree with another...

Why must we "respect" that? On what grounds?

If you assert that elves really exist, am I bound in some fashion to "respect" that? Why?

Why would it be "wrong" for me to say: "hey, he&#39;s a nutball, he believes in elves&#33;"?

To be sure, I might not put it so bluntly...I might even just shrug and say that to myself and utterly dismiss that person&#39;s posts thereafter.

But no, ***religion*** is a sacred subject which we "must" show "respect" for.

The unstated reason for that is if you tell somebody their religion is a load of crap, then they might physically attack you.

That being the ultimate argument of the really serious godsuckers.

But, since this is a message board, that can&#39;t happen...and thus I and others are free to speak plainly.

I see no reason whatsoever why we should not do so&#33;


Am I a man dreaming I&#39;m a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I&#39;m a man?

Who gives a rat&#39;s ass?

:redstar2000:

PS: "Dialectics" has nothing to do with atheism. See On Dialectics (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/theory/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1052322305&archive=1054467213&cnshow=news&ucat=>&start_from=)

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 02:58 AM
But then how does the world exist??? How did we come to be???
Religions helped the primitive men in trying to explain nature, which they couldn&#39;t. And to that they added some things to motivate their warriors and control other tribes. This world is too complex for us to understand. We still don&#39;t know certainly how this universe exist, so the religious brainwashed idiots keep pretending that all scientifical evidence prooves that god exist, because there&#39;s no option. Plus where did god exist before creating everything? And how, him, living in nowhere, decided to create everything? That&#39;s so stupid, but as I already said, we can&#39;t prove that god doesn&#39;t exist but we can&#39;t prove that he exists either, so the only thing makes people believe in a God is their stupid faith.

So, the point is that if we don&#39;t know a logical explanation for this existance, we don&#39;t necesarily have to accept the mythological one.

[Comrade Zeke]

But we have to look at this way, we can&#39;t just wipe out cultures that beilive in god or gods. Alot of people in the world beilive that something is out there. The Olympians did not creat everything,most of the stuff you read about Greek Mytholgy is Myth and pure fiction. But when I look on history; what was one of the great empires on earth??? The first things that will probably pop into your minds are Persian Empire, Macadonin Empire,Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire,British Empire, Napoleon&#39;s empire, Hilter&#39;s empire,Soveit Union and the United States. All of these empire except the Soveit Union have more or less have some sort of religion. The Religion helped bond these empires together and also help them break apart. In my view if you beilive in something like the Cristian God,Saints, Greek Gods,Celtic Pagaisnm,Aniasism,Islam and many others those gods or god or holy figure will manefest themselfs into the world. I am a complete beiliever in Darwisnm and everyone did evole from Chimps,Science has prooven that..but science can not proove miracles that happend in history,what happends after life or just how someone could just think up something called "God" or gods. The Greeks for example whos relgion I practice, had no blond people in their country at the time when they made up the Olympian gods. And the Greeks were tan and brown not white. They could not have just made up their gods like that poped into their mind. That prooves in a weird way that the pictures of Hermes,Zues and Hera and all the others were not just made up out of the imagenation of people&#39;s minds. They must have come to them in dreams or visions and then that is where the got the idea from. Anthor example to proof there is a god or gods......how can you explain all the miracles, example:There was a Catholic church in the middle of a Teaxs town a couple years back. A tarrnado just happend to come out of nowhere. Guess what it ended up destorying all the buidling in the town except the church. The heavy winds did blow off the church roof but the people in the church who were scarred for their lives were have said to see Angels holding back the Torrnado in the sky. People would know if there was no such thing as god...and why would all these saints like mother Teresa and Joan of Arc not go out into the world to do something for their god all in the name of what their god had told them to do. Mother Tearesa manageded to save thousands from Starvation, educated those poor people and help them out in all sorts of ways just in the name of the Catholic god. And all these religious leaders have predicted the future&#33; and it always comes true&#33; Religion is like being part of a club I see nothing wrong with it.....sure the Catholics and many other relgions have done bad things in their life times but the whole world is not just science some things can&#39;t be explained...simple is that. The Gods Intervien with our daily lives and help us or give up on us depeding on the cicumstances...I am still a Titoist and beilive in lots of aspects of Marx but I am not giving up my religion and I do beilive something is watching out for us. The Gods shape destiny and as Fidel Castro would say: "Men to not shape destiny,destiny produces the man for the hour."

[redstar2000]

"Comrade" Zeke, it pains me to have to say this -- I realize that you are fairly young and simply don&#39;t really know what you are talking about.

But yours may be the absolute worst post of any length in the history of Che-Lives.

It sounds like it was written in the Middle Ages.


In my view, if you believe in something like the Christian God, Saints, Greek Gods, Celtic Paganism, Aniasism [sic?], Islam and many others, those gods or god or holy figure[s] will manifest themselves into the world.

So if I believe in Santa Claus, he will show up next Christmas with a new computer for me? Even though I don&#39;t even have a fireplace?

And if I believe that women really can sign a pact with the "devil" and become "witches", then witches really exist?

And if I believe that with the proper ritual, I can summon up "demons", then that means demons really exist?

No matter what one chooses to believe, the very fact of belief will call it into existence, right?

Call it the "Walt Disney universal theology"..."wishing will make it so".


...but science can not prove miracles that happened in history, what happens after life or just how someone could just think up something called "God" or gods.

There&#39;s no such thing as "miracles". What happens after you die is that your corpse is eaten. Primitive peoples assume that inanimate objects are "alive" if they sometimes act like they are; most "gods" got their start as "storm gods" -- throwing "angry" and "frightening" temper tantrums.

Inventing a "god" to "explain" anything you don&#39;t understand is easy.


The Greeks for example, whose religion I practice, had no blond people in their country at the time when they made up the Olympian gods.

I believe that what actually happened was that Greece was invaded by "blond" conquerers whose "gods" were also blond (of course). In time, the invaders interbred with the natives and lost their "blondness"...but their "gods" kept theirs.


That proves in a weird way that the pictures of Hermes, Zeus and Hera and all the others were not just made up out of the imagination of people&#39;s minds.

No, it doesn&#39;t "prove" any such thing.


Another example to prove there is a god or gods......how can you explain all the miracles?

Easily. There were natural, material causes or they never happened at all.

In those really "far out" cases, they didn&#39;t happen at all.


There was a Catholic church in the middle of a Texas town a couple years back. A tornado just happened to come out of nowhere. Guess what, it ended up destroying all the building[s] in the town except the church. The heavy winds did blow off the church roof but the people in the church who were scared for their lives were have said to see Angels holding back the Tornado in the sky.

A good example of how mythology gets started.

What town? Where? When? Who are the witnesses? How reliable are they? Did anyone think to take pictures of the "angels"? A video?

No details at all...just an "exciting" story with a "happy ending". A "proto-myth" if you will.

Tornado&#39;s are indeed very violent storms but their radius of destruction is very small. I don&#39;t believe that a tornado that "destroyed every building" in a town has ever been recorded.

Indeed the most common "tornado story" that you are likely to hear first-hand is along the lines of: "It completely flattened my neighbor&#39;s house across the street and didn&#39;t even break a window in my house...thank God&#33;"

By the way, did anyone think to ask the "angels" why they let the tornado hit the town in the first place? I mean, was it just to put on a good show, or what?


...and why would all these saints like mother Teresa and Joan of Arc not go out into the world to do something for their god all in the name of what their god had told them to do?

Just because people believe something is "true" and act on that belief, does not make their belief true.

You may very well "firmly believe" that "God" has granted you the ability to fly...but if you act on that, the result will be an unhappy one for you.


And all these religious leaders have predicted the future&#33; And it always comes true&#33;

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The most famous "religious prediction" familiar to westerners is that of "John of Patmos" in the "Book of Revelation" predicting the imminent return of "Christ".

Since the book was originally written around 65CE and revised around 95CE, that means people are still waiting for it to "come true" after 19 centuries and counting.

The fact is, the "prediction" of a "religious leader" has a probability of success that&#39;s worse than chance. You could make better (more accurate) predictions by flipping a coin.


Religion is like being part of a club; I see nothing wrong with it...

I&#39;m afraid that&#39;s because you have no understanding of social reality or how it works.

I could suggest that you try checking some books out of your local library on the "sociology of religion"...but judging by your post, you probably have no access to a library at all.


...but the whole world is not just science; some things can&#39;t be explained...simple is that.

And anything that can&#39;t be explained must be the work of the "gods"...or "demons" or "witches" or...blah, blah, blah.

That&#39;s not "simple", it&#39;s simple-minded.


The Gods Intervene with our daily lives and help us or give up on us depending on the circumstances...

You might seek their assistance in learning how to spell (or type).


I am still a Titoist and believe in lots of aspects of Marx, but I am not giving up my religion, and I do believe something is watching out for us.

No, you are not a "Titoist". No, you understand nothing of Marx.

If anyone is watching out for you, it is most likely someone from your local mental health clinic.


The Gods shape destiny...

If so, they sure are an incompetent bunch of fuckups, aren&#39;t they?

-------------------------

I hope the reader will not think I have been "too cruel" to Zeke -- his poor brain is stuffed with so much shit that anything I said was going to sound "bad".

I think it&#39;s always sad when people are suckered into superstitions -- but Zeke is one of the saddest cases to ever turn up on this board.

To be honest, I don&#39;t think anything can help him -- he is like a time-traveler from the distant past who can learn how to use indoor plumbing or how to drive a car, but who will never truly "be at home" in the 21st century.

That&#39;s a real shame.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, but
it was the theists who declared the existance of god,
and since the burden truth lies upon the accuser,
is it not up to them, and them alone, to prove "his" existance?

And respectively, doesn&#39;t "he" not exist by default since those who "created" him have no means of "showing" us him?
Is this not an easy and undisputable victory for us atheists?

[Comrade Zeke]

To: Redstar2000
I am not going to be as rude as you were to me....So I am just going to say this.....You can&#39;t prove anything, your a narrow-minded, superficial freak who has no soul what so ever. You believe in nothing and I know I am young and maybe not the best speller but I come up with SOME arguable debates. Marx was a great man, a great philosopher, but his ideas will never work, maybe in the form of Democratic Socialism or Labor Unions. And thank you for saying “he is like a time-traveler from the distant past” Yes I am like a “Time Traveler” from a distant past. For by the sound of your ignorant and mean hearted post you don’t know a thing about the “DISTANT PAST” One example of a “superstition.” Babylon was cursed by the Jewish people who were enslaved there for many years. When Alexander the Great was done taking over the Persian Empire, he stopped in the Ruins of Babylon for he had a case of Malaria. Within days he was dead and his great empire ended. Well guess what he didn’t even know it was Babylon why did he have to stop in that one place that day, why couldn’t he have just went around it? Coincidence? Or did that curse come true? Native American curse, the great chief Tecumseh who had tried to united the semi-western tribes of Native American Indians started a town called Prophet Town….that town was destroyed by William Henry Harrison the 9th president of the United States of America. When he was elected president, Harrison died in office, all American presidents elected in a year divisible by 20 between 1840 and 1960 died in office. How can you explain that genuis. Well geuss what you can’t there is no possible answear but the Native American curse. They only president that has survived the curse, was Ronald Regan. Why the fuck would someone make up something like seeing God, or Angels? Just to become popular mabey or you could just be a really spirtual person and take it for reality. But I am sorry to say you don’t have a reality Redstar2000 your some rich fat yuppie in your underware somewhere in Sanfransico pretending to be a smart ass. Tito was a Catholic and before he died he had nuns surrounding him 24:7. Even Fidel Castro who is supposed to be an “Atheist” is turning Orthadox and showing mercy to the Orthadox church. And if Marx and not beiliving in god or something spirtual is so great then why don’t you go live in China where in their colleges they are taught nothing but; about Communist Sociolgy??? I do not beilive in Santa clause, or the Easter Bunny or any of that crap. Do you think I am Naïve?? I don’t even beilive in Jesus. Jesus was just some guy like any other healer who went around cured people with Cannibis,or if your idotic and narrow minded, wall nut size brain can configure weed,pot,or whatever these other slag words are for it. If the perfect Utopia without GOD OR GODS IS SO GREAT THEN WHY DID THE SOVEIT UNION COLLAPSE??? They clearly did not worship anything really and no body wants to live in a world that does not worship something. What do you mean there is no such thing as Miracles???? It is a Miracle that you were born, that I was born. It’s a Miracle that a comment or a metiord didn’t hit this plannet a second time when the Dinos died. I am not a narrow minded person I do not beilive that everything is created by god or the gods. Science is great it explains are daily lives but it can’t explain why certain things happen, are happening or do happen. AND TO QUOTE on Tito he was not a firm beilever in Marx, if he was…then he wouldn’t have is own system now would he???? He loved the teachings of Marx,but Tito was the only smart socailist leader that ever exsisted. RedStar200 Marx isn’t going to save you when you have your heart attack on your toliet one day after eating to much fats. Your not going to be holding your Communist Bible in your hands and your not going to have a Sceicnce book in your hands either. Most sane people would be praying to something moments before they die or that is what they would think of. But then again your not a sane person. You’re a heartless, bastard, no soul, no carisma, and I beilive you have fround or made fun of everything I have ever said on this board. I feel bad for all the newbies who have to deal with your riddacule and your nagative adittude of life. SORRY IF THIS OFFENDS ANYONE ELSE&#33; ZEKE

[redstar2000]

You don&#39;t want to give up yet?


One example of a "superstition." Babylon was cursed by the Jewish people who were enslaved there for many years. When Alexander the Great was done taking over the Persian Empire, he stopped in the Ruins of Babylon...

Let&#39;s stop right there...Babylon was not in "ruins" when Alexander died there; it was a flourishing city and continued to flourish for nearly another two centuries. It was finally abandoned when a new city -- Selucia -- was built nearby. There were people still living in Babylon as late as 80BCE...though probably not many.


When he was elected president, Harrison died in office; all American presidents elected in a year divisible by 20 between 1840 and 1960 died in office. How can you explain that, genius? Well, guess what, you can’t. There is no possible answer but the Native American curse.

Why didn&#39;t all American presidents die in office? Sloppy "curse work"?

And why did "the great spirit" (or whoever) let Reagan live? Do "curses" come with an expiration date?

Have you ever run across the word coincidence?


Why the fuck would someone make up something like seeing God, or Angels?

The usual reason people make stuff up, of course: M O N E Y &#33;

Also, people often make major errors in what they "think" they "see". There have been studies done on this; "eyewitnesses" are notoriously unreliable.


Redstar2000, you&#39;re some rich fat yuppie in your underwear somewhere in San Francisco pretending to be a smart ass.

Rich? No. Fat? I prefer the word "large". Underwear? Usually, I&#39;m wearing my bathrobe when I post. San Francisco? I wish&#33; I had to leave that marvelous city because I couldn&#39;t afford to live there...after all the rich yuppies moved in.

Pretending to be a smart ass? No, I am a "smart ass."


Tito was a Catholic and before he died he had nuns surrounding him 24:7.

Didn&#39;t help, did it?

Did he "rise" after the "third day"?


And if Marx and not believing in god or something spiritual is so great, then why don’t you go live in China where in their colleges they are taught nothing but about Communist Sociology???

Chinese colleges these days are teaching "business administration"...just like schools in America. It&#39;s a capitalist country now.

Also, I don&#39;t speak Chinese...a very difficult language for westerners to learn.


Do you think I am Naive??

More than anyone I&#39;ve seen in the history of this board&#33;


If the perfect Utopia without GOD OR GODS IS SO GREAT, THEN WHY DID THE SOVIET UNION COLLAPSE???

Lots of material reasons, which you aren&#39;t interested in and wouldn&#39;t understand even if I explained them to you.

But they did have a "god" in the old USSR; all of the Orthodox clergy there were on the public payroll and the state even funded a couple of seminaries to train new priests.

It didn&#39;t help them, either.


They clearly did not worship anything really and no body wants to live in a world that does not worship something.

I do...very much&#33; In fact, I&#39;ll go even further. I don&#39;t think humans will become really human until this "worship" crap is gone for good.

It may be "good enough" for semi-barbarians like yourself; a fully-developed human uses her/his brain to think...not merely believe.


It is a Miracle that you were born, that I was born.

No, it was a very long shot (about 80 million to one) that "paid off".

You might want to look into probability theory some time -- statistically rare occurrences nevertheless take place with regularity...given enough chances.


RedStar2000, Marx isn’t going to save you when you have your heart attack on your toilet one day after eating too much fats.

Well, all those nuns didn&#39;t save Tito. So if I must die on the crapper, those are the breaks.


Most sane people would be praying to something moments before they die or that is what they would think of.

And me? My last words will probably be "oh shit, that hurts&#33;"

Heart attacks are pretty painful...even on the crapper.


You’re a heartless bastard, no soul, no charisma...

No doubt.

But look, Zeke, newbie or not, you can&#39;t come on this board and spew a torrent of superstitious vomit and expect people to just "let it slide".

That&#39;s not how message boards work.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So according to Zeke I have to start praying in case a comment or a metiord hits the earth eh...

[cubist]

i pray that a comit or meteorite hits the white house everyday

[dopediana]

i don&#39;t believe in god.
i hate seeing people follow a questionable thought.
the ten commandments are great but i think they were improvised.
i&#39;ve never seen the work of god, and if god is as great as they say he is we wouldn&#39;t be in such a mess. this free will stuff that people love to talk about is bullshit.

[SittingBull47]

yea, i do (to keep it short). It all had to come from somewhere.

[timbaly]

Logically speaking if god is actually the originator of the universe how can we explain god&#39;s existence? He had to come from something, doesn&#39;t he? Well rather than make up stories about unexplainable events we should acknowlege the fact that we are uncertain about the universes origins. Nobody at this present time can say for certain how the universe started. Not knowing the answer should not cause anyone believe in an irrational, illogical and unscientific concept such as god.

[Comrade Zeke]

Lots of material reasons, which you aren&#39;t interested in and wouldn&#39;t understand even if I explained them to you.

haahahaha I have a Russian living in my house....l I have to hear all about how great it is&#33; I know all the reasons the real reasons plain and simple of the Soveit System collapsed because of these principal reasons:

1.Gorbachev and his big plans of econmy, but he was the only president of that cursed country that was ever had some comman sense that ever lived.
2. They Econmy was to complex, it only worked in the beiging because it was simple
3.No organised Religion to rally the people.
4.THe Goverment forced national pride no body cares about Lennin or the "Hammer and the Sickel"
5.The Soviet Union was an imperalist country much like the United States, no freedom nothing.
6.Crapy, Crapy, Crapy goods....
7.All the other Communist block countries were slaves the only ones that I can think of are China,Albania and Yugoslavia. So don&#39;t "which you aren&#39;t interested in and wouldn&#39;t understand even if I explained them to you." I am very intrested and I know alot about the subject. I will admit that I was wrong about Bybolan not being a ruin but it was close to a ruin....not a "flourishing city" not as great as it was in the decades before the Persains coquered it.
I do...very much&#33; In fact, I&#39;ll go even further. I don&#39;t think humans will become really human until this "worship" crap is gone for good.

Well your wish anit going to happen&#33; People just like god to much...and all these ex-hippies that are firm lovers of Communism and social theory are all obbseced with Native American religions and Budduism..and well sorry to say it Hawaii is over run with the dirrty bastards don&#39;t come on vacation to Maui&#33; Stay away&#33; lol
I don&#39;t care if you comment or midly critizize my posts...lol you just don&#39;t have to get so freak out like:[/QUOTE]his poor brain is stuffed with so much shit that anything I said was going to sound "bad".

I think it&#39;s always sad when people are suckered into superstitions -- but Zeke is one of the saddest cases to ever turn up on this board.

lol...I going to make sure that I have something to say for everything you post. Have a nice day :lol:

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 03:31 PM
i don&#39;t believe in god.
i hate seeing people follow a questionable thought.
the ten commandments are great but i think they were improvised.
i&#39;ve never seen the work of god, and if god is as great as they say he is we wouldn&#39;t be in such a mess. this free will stuff that people love to talk about is bullshit.
Who ever said anything about the "ten commandments" or other biblical text??? We are talking about the existance of God not if Christanity/Islam/Judaism/etc.... is the correct religion.

[redstar2000]

I have a Russian living in my house...

That&#39;s nice. How old is s/he? Can s/he tell you anything first-hand about Khrushchev, Stalin, or Lenin? Was s/he a member of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks)? In the leadership?

Is s/he a trained Marxist economist or historian? Has s/he studied the actual course of events in the USSR? Or Eastern Europe?

I agree, by the way, that Soviet consumer goods were generally crap...even when they were available at all. Why does s/he think that happened?


No organised religion to rally the people.

Short memory? I already explained to you that religion did exist in the USSR...the Russian Orthodox Church was just another government ministry.

I&#39;m sure they dutifully prayed for the health of and blessings on Soviet leaders...just as American Christians pray for "President" Bush.

Didn&#39;t help. Never does.


Well, your wish ain&#39;t going to happen&#33; People just like god too much...and all these ex-hippies that are firm lovers of Communism and social theory are all obsessed with Native American religions and Buddhism...

Superstition often flourishes in the last decades of a declining social system.

When revolution finally arrives, the "godly" are put firmly "in their place"...or, at least, I hope that happens.

But we&#39;ll see.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Xvall]

I don&#39;t believe in god as a single concientious entity, or some supreme power. I suppose I have my own &#39;spiritual&#39; beliefs, but I certainly wouldn&#39;t define it as worshiping or believing in some sort of &#39;god&#39; or &#39;gods&#39;.

[Comrade Zeke]

Well the Russian in my house was born in 1970 so yeah he only saw the collapse and such of it...He did see Brezchev however and described him as a moving corpse but he does from some odd reason admire the guy alot and say he did alot of stuff for the people. He was in the Soveit Army in 1987-1988 I beilive. Fuck Bush I know if anyone beilives in god they will get "God" to help them get rid of him...but I do wish John Edwards had won the Democratic primaries. I know you said that but come on do you really beilive that the Orthadox church had any power?? I mean the Soviet Police could kill ministers. His dad was a Communist party members he says he was big but I don&#39;t beilive him. Lots of accounts of what is what like in the Soviet Union and he is constaly prasing Russia and how we should all "Invest" in Russian stockmarkets. I personally don&#39;t like President Puttin, Preident Bushy and him are trying to take over the world. Russians are very smart and cunning.
Zeke

[Comrade Zeke]

He also thinks that Soviet schooling is better then American shcooling....Hahaha he is good at History though. But his major debate with me is how Americans arn&#39;t free and the Soveit Union was for the people, I seriously think he was brainwashed.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

American sientist said, that there is 67% possibility, that God exists... <_<

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by General [email protected] 10 2004, 05:11 AM
American scientist said that there is 67% possibility, that God exists... <_<
Redstar2000 says there is a 99.999% probability that this "American scientist" either doesn&#39;t exist or is an idiot. :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Xvall]

Just curious Gen, what are your politics?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 07:10 PM
Dictionary definition states:
agnostic:n. person who believes that nothing is or can be known of existence of God or any but material phenomena.



Therefore doubting the exsistence of God. An agnostic cannot say a theist has no proof if they can come up with something that is undeniable&#33; They simply believe that there is no proof, so, still denying the existence of God.

Atheism: n. belief that no God exists.

You can&#39;t get me on this subject Geist :D
A good source on this subject is here:.Good Source (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Pastor%5EGene%5ECook%2C%5EJr%2E)
look for the radio debates of this speaker.
Actually you are wrong, I can get you on this.


4 entries found for agnostic.
ag·nos·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

I have a Russian living in my house

Say hello, from us&#33;

redstar2000...Short memory? I already explained to you that religion did exist in the USSR...the Russian Orthodox Church was just another government ministry.I&#39;m sure they dutifully prayed for the health of and blessings on Soviet leaders...just as American Christians pray for "President" Bush.
It is a stupid bullshit&#33;&#33;&#33; Church HATED communists ALL THE TIME&#33;&#33;&#33; You got short memory&#33; Remember slaughters and repressions of "st.fathers" and priests from 1918 to 1941&#33;?

Drake Dracoli...ask it by PM.

[Liberty Lover]

God stopped existing when I ripped his head off and shat down his neck.