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el_profe
1st March 2004, 16:51
Anti-Americanism: An Introduction
by Jean Francois Revel (February 27, 2004)

Summary: The principal function of anti-Americanism has always been, and still is, to discredit liberalism by discrediting its supreme incarnation.

[www.CapitalismMagazine.com]

An excerpt from Anti-Americanism by Jean Francois Revel.

From 1953 to 1969, living in Italy and then in France, I had watched and formed my opinion about the United States through the filter of the European press, which means that my judgment was unfavorable. Europeans at that time saw America as the land of McCarthyism and the execution of the Rosenbergs (who were innocent, we believed), of racism and the Korean War and a stranglehold on Europe itself—the “American occupation of France,” as Simone de Beauvoir and the Communists used to say. And then Vietnam became the principal reason to hate America.
Since the end of the Cold War—with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the liberation of Eastern Europe, and the realignment of a polarized world—it is often said that today’s anti-Americanism derives from the fact that the United States is now the “hyperpower,” a term made fashionable by Hubert Védrine, a French minister of foreign affairs. This interpretation assumes that American hegemony was previously easier to justify, first because it dominated fewer nations and second because it answered to the need to protect against Soviet imperialism. But this doesn’t reflect reality: anti-Americanism was almost as virulent during the period of threatening totalitarianism as it has been after that threat disappeared (in its Soviet version, at least).

Within some democratic countries, a subset of the population, some political parties and the majority of intellectuals, were prone to adhere to Communism, or at least support similar ideas. For this crowd, anti-Americanism was rational, since America was identified with capitalism, and capitalism with evil. What was less rational was their wholesale swallowing of the most flagrant and stupid lies about American society and foreign policy, and their careful spurning of accurate knowledge of the Communist systems. An irrational anti-Americanism, with a blind rejection of factual and verifiable information about America and its antidemocratic enemies, was even more paradoxical among those sectors of Western opinion—the majority, in fact—who feared and rejected Communism. (At the beginning of the twenty-first century, they are rising above the former prejudice.) On the other hand, the ant-Americanism of the Right and even the extreme Right, as blindly passionate as the Left’s though with a different rationale, is characteristically a French phenomenon.

The European Right’s anti-Americanism stems fundamentally from our continent’s loss during the twentieth century of its six-hundred-year leadership role. Europe had been the powerhouse of enterprise and industry, innovator in arts and sciences, maker of empires—in practical terms, master of the planet. It was sometimes one European country, sometimes another, that took the lead in this process of globalization avant la lettre, but all more or less participated, either in concert or by turns. Today, by contrast, not only has Europe lost the ability to act alone on a global scale, but it is compelled in some degree to follow in the footsteps of the United States and lend support. It is in France that this loss—real or imaginary—of great-power status engenders the most bitterness. As for the anti-Americanism of the extreme Right, it is fueled by the same hatred for democracy and the liberal economy that goads the extreme Left.

As the sixties unfolded, I had begun to be invaded by doubts as to the validity of this reflexive anti-Americanism, which indiscriminately condemned America’s “imperialistic” foreign policy—Soviet imperialism, in contrast, was but philanthropy—and American society. When I traveled to America in the early winter of 1969 to research Without Marx or Jesus, I was astonished by evidence that everything Europeans were saying about the U.S. was false. Over the course of a few weeks I went from the East Coast to the West Coast, with a stay in Chicago along the way. Rather than a conformist society, what I found was one in the throes of political, social and cultural upheaval.

I cut it short cause its a bit long, but you can continue to read part of the indtroduciton here: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3498
Its an intersting read, if anyone actually reads the whole thing i would like to hear opinions.


This is a great paragrpah from the introduction:

Or again, however astonishing it may seem half a century later, Soviet propaganda, thanks to its echo chamber in the free but credulous world, succeeded for years in persuading millions of people that it was South Korea that had attacked North Korea in 1950 and not the reverse. Picasso himself signed on to the swindle when he painted Massacre in Korea, which depicts a squad of American soldiers opening fire on a group of women and naked children—thereby demonstrating that artistic genius need not be incompatible with moral ignominy. (The massacres could only have been perpetrated by Americans, of course, since it was well known that any acts that might jeopardize human life were deeply distasteful to Joe Stalin and Kim Il Sung.) Let me mention also for the record the farcical allegation of bacteriological warfare waged by Americans in Korea, a lie made up on the spot by a Soviet agent, the Australian journalist Wilfred Burchett. The astonishing thing is not that it was cooked up, but that even outside Communist circles it could gain a certain credibility—and this in countries where the press is free and it is easy to crosscheck data. The mystery of anti-Americanism is not the disinformation—reliable information on the United States has always been easy to obtain—but people’s willingness to be disinformed.


Anti-Americanism increased tenfold by 1969 as a result of the war in Vietnam. But Europeans, and above all the French, with remarkable unfairness forgot or pretended to forget that the war was a direct offshoot of European colonial expansion in general, and of the French Indochina War in particular. Because France in her blindness had refused to decolonize after 1945; because she had rashly become involved in a distant and protracted war in the course of which she had, moreover, frequently pleaded for and sometimes obtained American help; because France, humiliatingly routed at the battle of Dien Bien Phu, was forced in 1954 to sign the disastrous Geneva Accords, handing over the northern half of Vietnam to a Communist regime that promptly violated the agreements: it was thus unquestionably only after a long series of political blunders and military setbacks on the part of France and the French that the United States was induced to intervene.



This is another great paragraph it says what i have been saying all along all the anti-america commies hate America because it intervens in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, but they get so mad when the USa does not interven in Haiti or in some other conflict that the america-haters want the USA to intervene in.: :lol: :lol:
As an hors d’oeuvre, let me offer a particularly flagrant manifestation of this mentality, on display as I write these lines in September 2001. Until May of 2001, and for some years now, the main grievance against the United States was formulated in terms of the hyperpower’s “unilateralism,” its arrogant assumption that it could meddle everywhere and be the “policeman of the world.” Then, over the summer of 2001, it became apparent that the administration of George W. Bush was less inclined than its predecessors to impose itself as universal lifesaver in one crisis after another—especially in the Middle East, where the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians was heating up alarmingly. From then on the reproof mutated into that of “isolationism”: a powerful country failing in its duties and, with monstrous egocentricity, looking only to its own national interests. With wonderful illogicality, the same spiteful bad temper inspired both indictments, though of course they were diametrically opposed.

Sabocat
1st March 2004, 18:04
Picasso himself signed on to the swindle when he painted Massacre in Korea, which depicts a squad of American soldiers opening fire on a group of women and naked children—thereby demonstrating that artistic genius need not be incompatible with moral ignominy.

Well, the American soldiers did open fire on a bunch of unarmed women and children.

Try looking up No Gun Ri

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/nogunri/

If he isn't aware of even this, then how could we possibly take any of this tripe seriously.

Misodoctakleidist
1st March 2004, 18:54
[www.CapitalismMagazine.com]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That says it all, this is blatent irrational and ilogical propaganda aimed at people who are incapable of individual though. The type of idiots who beleive this crap are to be found here (http://www.capitalismforum.com), you may think they are all the same, incredibly ignorant, person with multiple accounts but astonishingly they're not.

el_profe
1st March 2004, 20:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:54 PM

[www.CapitalismMagazine.com]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That says it all, this is blatent irrational and ilogical propaganda aimed at people who are incapable of individual though. The type of idiots who beleive this crap are to be found here (http://www.capitalismforum.com), you may think they are all the same, incredibly ignorant, person with multiple accounts but astonishingly they're not.
Obviously you did not read the article, it is part of the introduction of the book.

el_profe
1st March 2004, 20:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:04 PM

Picasso himself signed on to the swindle when he painted Massacre in Korea, which depicts a squad of American soldiers opening fire on a group of women and naked children—thereby demonstrating that artistic genius need not be incompatible with moral ignominy.

Well, the American soldiers did open fire on a bunch of unarmed women and children.

Try looking up No Gun Ri

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/nogunri/

If he isn't aware of even this, then how could we possibly take any of this tripe seriously.
:lol: :lol: :lol: YOu didnt read it right, He never said that NO GUn ri never happened, he just gave the picasso example of how stupid people where to believe that south korea and the USA started the war on North Korea.
Always happens here, morons take one sentence, misinterpret it and then say the author is not worth reading because he is a liar when they didnt even read the book or the whole article.

Misodoctakleidist
1st March 2004, 20:15
Actually i did, it's just another part of the objectivist crap and isn't even worth replying to. Just for you el_profe i'll point out the stupidity of the first sentence;


Summary: The principal function of anti-Americanism has always been, and still is, to discredit liberalism by discrediting its supreme incarnation.

Or perhaps it's becuase people don't like america. The author also deliberatly attempts to deceive the reader by substituting neo-liberalism for liberalism.

el_profe
1st March 2004, 20:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:15 PM
Actually i did, it's just another part of the objectivist crap and isn't even worth replying to. Just for you el_profe i'll point out the stupidity of the first sentence;


Summary: The principal function of anti-Americanism has always been, and still is, to discredit liberalism by discrediting its supreme incarnation.

Or perhaps it's becuase people don't like america. The author also deliberatly attempts to deceive the reader by substituting neo-liberalism for liberalism.
What? liberalism(liberal) is the original meaning of pro free-market, pro individual rights.

In Australia Liberals still mean this, neo-liberal is just the "new" meaning the left decided to give to true liberals.
So your totally wrong.
ONCE AGAIN you did not read the whole thing, grab one sentence misinterpret and say teh author is trying to trick the reader? :lol: :lol:
And why do people dont like America?

Misodoctakleidist
1st March 2004, 20:32
What? liberalism(liberal) is the original meaning of pro free-market, pro individual rights.

No, liberalism is "pro individual right" and neo-liberalism is "pro free-market."



ONCE AGAIN you did not read the whole thing, grab one sentence misinterpret and say teh author is trying to trick the reader?

I read it all before is made my first post in this topic.


And why do people dont like America?

There are many reasons and they differ from person to person but it's deifnatly not becuase of some kind of plot to undermime "liberalism" becuase they are all evil and want to cause the end of civillisation

el_profe
1st March 2004, 20:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:32 PM

What? liberalism(liberal) is the original meaning of pro free-market, pro individual rights.

No, liberalism is "pro individual right" and neo-liberalism is "pro free-market."



ONCE AGAIN you did not read the whole thing, grab one sentence misinterpret and say teh author is trying to trick the reader?

I read it all before is made my first post in this topic.


And why do people dont like America?

There are many reasons and they differ from person to person but it's deifnatly not becuase of some kind of plot to undermime "liberalism" becuase they are all evil and want to cause the end of civillisation
I already told you he was using the original meaning or liberalism, not the "new" meaning that the left somehow decided they where going to use to describe themselves.

Misodoctakleidist
1st March 2004, 20:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:41 PM
I already told you he was using the original meaning or liberalism, not the "new" meaning that the left somehow decided they where going to use to describe themselves.
Is that what capitalism magazine told you to say?

el_profe
1st March 2004, 20:55
Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Mar 1 2004, 09:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Mar 1 2004, 09:49 PM)
[email protected] 1 2004, 09:41 PM
I already told you he was using the original meaning or liberalism, not the "new" meaning that the left somehow decided they where going to use to describe themselves.
Is that what capitalism magazine told you to say? [/b]
Yes, capitalist magazine is also a dictionary, I just looked up the world liberalism and thats what it said :lol: :lol:

Invader Zim
1st March 2004, 20:59
liberalism

n 1: a political orientation that favors progress and reform 2: an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market and the gold standard


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


neoliberalism.

ne·o·lib·er·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-lbr--lzm, -lbr-)
n.
A political movement beginning in the 1960s that blends traditional liberal concerns for social justice with an emphasis on economic growth.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Misodoctakleidist wins.

redstar2000
1st March 2004, 23:04
Has this "Jean Francois Revel" gotten his "job" yet with an American conservative "think-tank"?

It sounds like that&#39;s what he was trying for...and perhaps no one in France will hire his sorry ass.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Y2A
1st March 2004, 23:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:59 PM
Misodoctakleidist wins.
Incorrect. Classical Liberalism is modern-day libertarianism. That is what he meant.

el_profe
2nd March 2004, 00:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:59 PM
liberalism

n 1: a political orientation that favors progress and reform 2: an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market and the gold standard


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University


neoliberalism.

ne·o·lib·er·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-lbr--lzm, -lbr-)
n.
A political movement beginning in the 1960s that blends traditional liberal concerns for social justice with an emphasis on economic growth.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Misodoctakleidist wins.
:lol: :lol: no, thanks for proving that I was right.

Redstar: I dont know much about this author althoug I know he already has a book that was a best seller and was published in 20 different languages, so I dont think he needs a job.

Y2A
2nd March 2004, 00:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:54 PM

[www.CapitalismMagazine.com]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That says it all, this is blatent irrational and ilogical propaganda aimed at people who are incapable of individual though. The type of idiots who beleive this crap are to be found here (http://www.capitalismforum.com), you may think they are all the same, incredibly ignorant, person with multiple accounts but astonishingly they&#39;re not.
Same as WorkersMagazine??? Your basically calling yourself a brainwashed fool. :P

But in all seriousness, as long as the articals are based on fact, be it workers or capitalist magazine, you should not say call it "evil propaganda". That goes for both communists and capitalists on these boards.

Y2A
2nd March 2004, 00:44
The type of idiots who beleive this crap are to be found here, you may think they are all the same, incredibly ignorant, person with multiple accounts but astonishingly they&#39;re not.

Check out who the 7th poster on this thread of that forum just happens to be AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://www.capitalismforum.com/phpBB2/view...fcc1395167ba841 (http://www.capitalismforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=383&sid=0d8e597a4fa3fd6a3fcc1395167ba841)


el_profe



Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 90

Again........AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahaha :P :D :lol:

Sabocat
2nd March 2004, 14:28
el profe:


Or again, however astonishing it may seem half a century later, Soviet propaganda, thanks to its echo chamber in the free but credulous world, succeeded for years in persuading millions of people that it was South Korea that had attacked North Korea in 1950 and not the reverse. Picasso himself signed on to the swindle when he painted Massacre in Korea, which depicts a squad of American soldiers opening fire on a group of women and naked children—thereby demonstrating that artistic genius need not be incompatible with moral ignominy.

So this writer is stating that the Soviet propaganda was responsible for people in the U&#036; believing that South Korea attacked North Korea. So what? U&#036; propaganda told everyone else that the North invaded the South. He then goes on to state that Picasso painted a pictue depicting the killing of women and children, "thereby demonstrating that artistic genius need not be incompatible with moral ignominy".

Well, you fucking half-wit. American soldiers did kill women and children. He therefore is stating that Picasso succumbed to Soviet propaganda and painted something that didn&#39;t happen, and that he is displaying a "moral ignominy". Well it did happen, and for the writer to declare that Picasso had a "moral ignominy" is typical of the conservative right wing trash that keeps coming out year after year. It would only be a moral disgrace, if it didn&#39;t happen and the painting was pure propaganda.

Also, there is no real proof that the South didn&#39;t attack the North first.


Between 1945 and 1948 alone, under the direction of the U.S. military, the Sygman Rhee regime and the South Korean military murdered over 300,000 people suspected of being Communists or Socialists — even though many of the victims had valiantly fought the Japanese during WWII.

This obscene injustice could not go on forever, and war finally broke out between the Communist forces of the north which had fought the Japanese, and the U.S. which allied itself with Japanese collaborators in the South. This is exactly the same pattern of betrayal the United States followed in Vietnam.

Between 1950 and 1953 the greatest devastation was of course inflicted upon the civilian people of North Korea. The United States Corporate Mafia Government and military were terribly frustrated by the heroic determination of the Korean people and their Chinese allies to be free of American domination. To teach them the “virtues” of the American way, the Pentagon began a deliberate campaign of bloody genocide from the air and on the ground beginning in June 1950, using 20 times more napalm against the Korean people than it used in World War II. The U.S. military also used biological warfare against both the Korean and Chinese peoples.

It was during the Korean Genocide that American military personnel first started using the term “gook.” Many subhuman Americans felt it was okay to slaughter Korean children and rape Korean women because they were all just “gooks.” This sort of bestial racism is a tradition in the bloodthirsty United States military. War criminals always attempt to justify their own evil inhumanity by imagining their victims as being less than human.

Speaking at a May 19, 2001 news conference in the Koryo Hotel in Pyongyang, world-renowned human rights activist Ramsey Clark said:

“The crimes committed by the U.S. against the Korean people included mass executions of political prisoners in South Korea between September 8, 1945, and the start of the Korean War on June 25, 1950.”

“The Korean people, like the Vietnamese people, also suffered from countless massacres between 1950 and 1953 by U.S. occupying troops.”

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...denHistory.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/koreagenocide/HiddenHistory.html)

el_profe
2nd March 2004, 18:16
The Norht did attaack first and yes they where trying to invade.
Picasso was a communist, just like many other painter and writer in teh 20th century.(i.e. octavio paz, garcia marquez... and many more)

Sabocat
2nd March 2004, 19:22
Picasso was a communist, just like many other painter and writer in teh 20th century.

What&#39;s that got to do with him depicting events that actually took place? The writer deliberately attacked Picasso&#39;s painting as nothing more than Soviet propaganda and as being morally disgraceful when in actuality, he was depicting something that actually occured. The writer clearly has an agenda and as such this article wasn&#39;t worth the paper it was printed on.

If indeed the North did attack first (debatable) they were certainly pushed into it. Remember a little thing called the Gulf of Tonkin incident in Vietnam when we the U&#036; was supposedly attacked by North Vietnam? That falsity was used as a pretext for escalating the Vietnam war. The track record for the U&#036; telling the truth about weapons capability (re. Iraq) and who instigated aggression is suspect at best.