The Fall The U.S.

[Marx]

I don't know how much of you people have red some of Karl Marx writings (and if you didn't so you better do it) but i did read it and i can tell you what it says very clearly. it says that whan the capitalism will get to his highest level he'll crash down and the communism will take his place and rule the whole world.
Now, as i see it the war that the U.S. strated in Afghanistan is the start of thier end. you can agree with me that the American capitalism is now in is highest level and he is about to crash down and take the all other countries down with him.
My personal opinion is that the terrorist act in New-York is eventualy a good thing, i really feel sory about the who died thier (and i know what is terrorist act - i live in israel...) but this acts will help the communism to take his place quickly than you can even imagine...

[HardcoreCommie]

the problem is that marxist analysis can't be trusted anymore. For marx the ultimate state of capitalism was imperialism. The nature of modern economic imperialism is utterly different from what marx envisioned. Furthermore you make the mistake of making the US synonimous with capitalism, US legislative history reveals a long battle between efficiency and equity. Capitalism does not rest in one nation, don't make that mistake.

[I Will Deny You]

Rome fell, and was not taken over by communists.

In case you haven't noticed, the September 11 events have strengthened capitalism. People are using patriotic images in car commercials! And as far as getting troops out of Saudi Arabia, in preparation for the war with Iraq that seems to be coming, the US will need more oil than ever and our bond with Saudi Arabia will get even stronger. Don't think the bases in Turkey will be closed down soon, either. We're about to "need" them more than ever.

The terrorists disgusted me. The US government disgusts me, too. With terrorist acts, everyone loses. If you think for a second that the fall of the WTC will bring about a communist revolution, you are definitely mistaken. The country has definitely moved to the RIGHT since 9/11.

Violence is not what works, and has not worked since the Revolutionary War. Look at every successful progressive movement in the US and you will see that nonviolence works. Call me an idealist, but I think compassion is what works best.

[red head]

well first off, i don't think capitalism is anywhere near its height. marx intended for the evolution from capitalism to socialism to communism. he thought that the condition of the imperialist proletariat would worsen until there was a revolution. instead, the condition of the imperialist has gotten much better, so much so that lenin said the revolution was in the hands of the third world proletariat, and mao said the revolution belonged to 3rd world peasants, and that the imperialist proletariat was becoming a member of the oppressor class. you have to be careful not to take marxs' word as gospel and read the thoughts of other communists such as lenin, , mao, luxemburg, trotsky, and stalin so you can see how they interperet marxism in relation to changing times and conditions (i'm being a bit hypocritical as i haven't read near as much as i need to). the attacks on new york are a very unfortunate event, but politically, it is a win for the imperialists.

[Moskitto]

hang on did you say that Mao believed that the revolution was for the third world people?

I've never found myself agreeing with Mao before

Otherwise I agree with Rosa Luxemburg (obivously) on most things plus some of my own stuff.

And yes reading Marx (the philosopher) carefully there's some clear authoritarianism within it.

[DaNatural]

Marx what you say sound all nice and fuzzy. The reality is that capitalism has found ways to survive, Marx even warned of this. Capitalism has hit its stride, but they have found ways to work around it. One thing which Marx didnt see which Lenin realized, was the development of a two tier structure of capitalism. Meaning that capitalism exists in two different types of system. One being in North America and Europe, the second system has been called periphery. It is located in the third world and is based on exploiting these people who only earn subsistence wages. Whereas people in the west earn moderately better. Now since ths has developed the "proletariat's" develop different ideologies as to what they want. Marx envisioned that the workers would be in harmony but thats not the case with the 2 tier system, or monopoly capitalism. So now we have the problem of dealing with not only capitalism but of the different workers which come out of this system. Capitalism always finds ways to keep going, I suggest studying, exactly how it maintains its stronghold. Because although i love his writings, he did not envision this and we must now, analyze our current situation which has become worse, peace.

[Dreadnaht1]

I think U$A needs a little shove from a friendly out-sider. Hopefully Argentina's search for a better government will make most of South America realize the 'Big Brother' to the north is the real problem. I highly doubt that the U$A will ever crumble from the inside but I've always been a strong beliver in armed revolution, we just need one with the assistance of an outside nation--a powerful one at that.

-Dread

[booga]

Marx, i hope to get studied in this so that i can better understand where and on what Ches theories were coming from (so to speak). Thanks for recommending its urgency.

Im sorry that your land is attacked. one rare instance of watching television (the news) i saw the people running in daylight looking up to the sky because there were missles falling. oh my :angry: yet people here will still continue to make jokes, only because it has never happen to them no doubt.

does marx actually speak on communism or promote it or what, oh i guess i will have to wait and find out. (form my own perception)

as for "Hardcore" he makes a good point when he states "you make a mistake of making the US synonimous..." (i am emphasizing the point, not the validility) The president Bush has suprised me tho, he all of a sudden approved something like 34 billion for education for everyone. One of his claims is that this is to remove the "class" levels (no division) amoung students wanting to learn. :) (i dont want to get to happy until i find out what its all about but i never thought i would say this; RIGHT ON! BUSH! (pls people dont get too upset, it's okay to bring someone up when they do one thing right, no? )

one last thing...there was a meeing of the homeland defenders of the US. and you could be correct we may be unqualified to defend our own land. :(

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from Dreadnaht1 on 5:36 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
I think U$A needs a little shove from a friendly out-sider. Hopefully Argentina's search for a better government will make most of South America realize the 'Big Brother' to the north is the real problem. I highly doubt that the U$A will ever crumble from the inside but I've always been a strong beliver in armed revolution, we just need one with the assistance of an outside nation--a powerful one at that.

-Dread


Dread, right, i thought the US constitution gave the americans the right to form militias. :confused:

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 11:16 pm on Jan. 9, 2002

Violence is not what works, and has not worked since the Revolutionary War. Look at every successful progressive movement in the US and you will see that nonviolence works. Call me an idealist, but I think compassion is what works best.


I WILL DENY YOU..hmm great points you make, but im ignorant to some of the progressive movements. would you mind mentioning a few. i can look them up on my own. thanks. :)

[peaccenicked]

This is a question that should not be reduced to Marx's thoughts. The US is not coherent cohesive unit. I think what will happen is that the WASP culture will go into decline, it will get obese and lazy, the kids will be so spoilt that they will be dependent on Mexican nannies for everything right up till old age. Immigrants will become the vibrant part of the community and leave the WASPS behind thus breaking up imperialism from within.
This along with a civil war between with women + blacks against white reupublican men, will help the whole empire to come crumbling down and the roots of a coherent political class to grow. Independence for Hiawia, yeh!

(Edited by peaccenicked at 8:55 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

I'll give the most recent examples, gomez, since those are the ones it's probably easiest to research:
The Civil Rights Movement - Look at the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, then look at the Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam. The tactics of two of these organizations helped the movement, the tactics of two of these organizations hurt the movement. This example also proves that, in addition to its effectiveness, nonviolence shows more of a commitment in many, many cases. The kids curled up in fetal positions being hit by the police were putting a lot more at risk than Eldridge Cleaver's bodyguards. Some people say that advocating nonviolence means that a person is "soft on [capitalism, racism, oppression--you name it]" but this example proves that it's not the case at all.
The Anti-Vietnam Movement - The Mobe, the Yippies, Students for a Democratic Society, etc. won the hearts and minds of the American people by presenting rational, moral, thoughtful arguments. Here's a question for Marx: if their voices had gone ignored for longer and the Weather Underground had longer to blow shit up in the name of ending the war, do you think that it would have worked? Even when violence seems like the only option, more often than not it STILL isn't a good option.
The Gay Rights Movement - Homosexuals have proven to many Americans that they deserve equality not by smashing anything, but by coming out of the closet and proving that they're decent people--often more decent than heterosexual Americans, as it turns out. Imagine that! They still have a long way to go, but in the past 30 years there are a lot of examples that show promise.
The Abortion Rights Movement - Pro-abortion folk have shown restraint and maturity by not shooting anti-abortion leaders, and it makes them look ten times more rational than the anti-abortion movement in general because a few "Jesus-loving" idiots have killed doctors. When we're less violent than our opposition, it appears that we're more intelligent.
The Environmental Movement - A lot of streams, fields, forests, rivers and lakes have been saved not by gunfire but by passionate, driven grassroots organizers.

Hope this gives you enough to start with. If you need help with your research, feel free to ask.

[HardcoreCommie]

I think you're wrong about the lack of American national character. There is a distinct american culture, defined by language, music, literature, cuisine, etc.

Moreover, what are you talking about when you refer to WASP culture. Can I ask, are you American? If you are then you know full well that WASP culture, relegated to the country clubs of Connecticut, died long ago, and that immigrants have always been the most vibrant (economically and socially) sector of the American nation.
Personally I don't believe marxists have anything to gain from a culture war in America, especially if the victors are groups that you'd consider "progressive" such as women or minorities. If you divide society "vertically" along social and ethnic lines, then you undermine "horizontal" class divisions. What you would have is a situation in which an African american living in the ghetto would have more loyalty and feel more kinship with an african american plastic surgeon in beverly hills, as oppossed to a white american in the same economic class as he.

[peaccenicked]

WASP culture most broadly defined ie White anglo saxon protestantism. It is a tendency towards seeing the whole world in terms of money for the individual. It has
a record in genocide and brutality. People with the noses of accountants and are firmly in the tradition of the red neck, the imperialist apologist, the why is nt the world grateful for us brigade. I am not american but I live quite close to a US nuclear base, here in outpost,
Scotland. All of my life I've heard of Imperialism's
strong national identity. To say a nation is a nation, it is
a nation.
The word strong could only really apply if military might.
The overall atomisation of the working class internationally has broken many societal bonds and
it takes a tragedy for patriotism to become the new
national pastime. As to horizontal /vertical divisions, that is formally correct. I am not advocating social war,
I am just saying its going to happen. Heaven knows what will happen if Bush Cheats again. Sometimes the class war is not clean cut. Sometimes socialists are caught up in a hell of a mess. The actual extent of complacency within the WASPS who are beginning
to take it all for granted I think will surprise many.
The fall of ancient Greece came about according to
Engels because citizens left all of the work to the slaves.




(Edited by peaccenicked at 10:43 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 10:44 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 10:42 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
WASP culture most broadly defined ie White anglo saxon protestantism. It is a tendency towards seeing the whole world in terms of money for the individual. It has
a record in genocide and brutality. People with the noses of accountants and are firmly in the tradition of the red neck, the imperialist apologist, the why is nt the world grateful for us brigade.I'm an American and half of my ancestors are white and half of them are Protestant. My family history includes enough crap because of skin color (US slavery, segregation) and religion (Nazism, anyone?) that I really don't need to deal with it in this day and age, when I come here because the people are supposed to be, among other things, intelligent and open-minded. Plenty of black people use drugs, that doesn't make all black people crack addicts. By the same token, while many WASPs are stupid/evil/annoying/apathetic for whatever reason, plenty of them are smart/good/engaging/caring people. Don't make judgements like that.

Quote: from peaccenicked on 10:42 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
I am not advocating social war,
I am just saying its going to happen. Heaven knows what will happen if Bush Cheats again. 60% of Americans are registered to vote, and about half of them (30%) vote in presidential elections. That means about 15% of Americans voted against Bush. Don't expect a class war if Bush cheats again. Reagan cheated a ton of times (although he probably doesn't remember doing so) and there was no revolution.

[peaccenicked]

I am not trying to get at protestantism per se, in fact I find that catholics these days are more willing to adopt the protestant work ethic than protestants. The protestants I went to school with are more like hippies than anything that is part of my point. It is a general attidude that was born in European history, that I am trying to illustrate.
As to Bush cheating again, if at the next election,America
would be a democracy only name, even a bourgeois one.
I am not saying there will be a revolution but a civil war
of a social nature which already has many of demarcation lines set in place, which might unsettle the US as an Imperial power.

[HardcoreCommie]

I think somewhere or other I made the case for constitutionalism a concept so magnificent in its effect that we hardly notice it is the foundation of the stability of western democracy. It is through the machinations set up by a strong constitution that marxism/socialism/communism, will eventually attain a legitamate victory, and so despite the fact that GW Bush lost the popular vote, he is the constitutional winner. He didn't cheat. Any leftist should appreciate the beauty that is a peaceful transfer of power in which ideology takes a back seat. After we would expect and undeniably use the precedents seen in western democracies to legitimize our electoral victories. (so long as we stop espousing bullshit totalitarian communism, which many of you do implicitly)

[Imperial Power]

You think the US will fall? I think not. The best military, the most patriotism, the most powerful country in the world. The US will never fall .

[Dreadnaht1]

Actually, you've just listed every reason the U$ will fall. It has too much, it sucks rescources and money from foreign nations. It steps on people's hands just to pick up a penny. It will do anything to get money and it's loyal citizens think that they have the best nation in the world and that every other nation is absolute shit. They are the most ethnocentric and they feel every foreign idea is stupid and only their ideas are correct. This is why the U$A will collapse, not from the inside but from the outside, and they're are a lot more people outside U$A then there are in it and I highly doubt they will share the same type of patriotism that you do.

And what about the foreign policy? U$A's wonderful foreign policy, the one that does all the killing and keeps everyone quiet. The policy that keeps U$A's backyard in order. They're so afraid of an uprising from the Americas that they've had this opressive policy implemented to keep these people down. And all they see in the Americas is money and potential workers. It's horrifying that they consider the Americas as part of the U$A.

So I give it 10 years, max.

-Dread

[HardcoreCommie]

we should put money on it.

[peaccenicked]

http://billionairesforbushorgore.com/beabillionaire
Are you a member of this club?

[Imperial Power]

The end of the US would throw the world into another dark ages and cause a power struggle that would likely end in a nuclear holocaust. So from that point of view its in eveyones best interest for the US to stay teh way it is. Likely the US will evolve with other capitalist western nations to become some sort of world government.

[peaccenicked]

Unfortunately your presence on this planet is evidence that we are already living in the dark ages

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from peaccenicked on 8:22 pm on Jan. 11, 2002
Unfortunately your presence on this planet is evidence that we are already living in the dark ages

LOL :biggrin:

no offence if the above quote was personally aimed at someone, i just find its concept hilarious.

[gogo gomez]

only at the moment i might add, it seems i find myself laughing at the strangest things someday.

I Will Deny You, thank you for the information and i appreciate your generosity. :)

[Kez]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 11:16 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
Rome fell, and was not taken over by communists.

but Rome wasnt capitalist, also communism wasnt about then
wtf?

comrade kamo

[I Will Deny You]

If Rome wasn't capitalist then what was it? My point is that there were a lot more slaves/workers who had opportunities to start revolutions in Rome, and they didn't. Rome fell to dictators from the outside. Imperialism and rebellion are definitely linked, but I was responding to the original post, which said that the US was going to be taken over by communists. ("but this acts will help the communism to take his place quickly than you can even imagine..." )

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 9:31 am on Jan. 12, 2002)

[Dreadnaht1]

The time in which Rome existed is so utterly different then the age we are living in now that we cannot think to successfully compare it with current types of economies and governments with any hope of making any sense. That frame of time and the current frame of time are simply too different.

-Dread

[Imperial Power]

Dread is right on that one

[Moskitto]

The sad thing about everything is, People in Britain still think we're the most powerful country in the world.

There was this guy in a chatroom once who was like
Them - "we had the largest empire in the world."
Me - "Yes about 100 years ago."
Them - "So what? It still means we're the most powerful nation."
Me - "By That Logic, Mongolia, Turkey and Italy are enormously powerful, Likewise Cambodia, Mexico and Egypt are major powers in their regions."

By the way Kamo, Communism has been around in theoretical form since Ancient Greece, It's a myth spread by some people that it started in 1848.

[Dreadnaht1]

Actually I do believe that if we brought all of the empires together we would find that the United Empire of the Americas (formerly U$A) would out rank them all in evilness and in stature of imperialistic crap.

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

I did not mean to say "Rome in particular . . . " it's just that Rome is the classic example of an empire. You know, there's the expression "Rome was not built in a day," and then there's the John Lennon quote about Rome and America. I thought someone would have picked that up, but maybe you're all Elvis people.

My point was that empires are usually taken over by other empires and turned into different empires and not democracies or countries whose leaders even PRETEND to give two shits about the people. Even if the US were about to fall, which it's not, it would probably be taken over by another large empire (or maybe Mongolia, Turkey, Italy, Cambodia, Mexico, Egypt or maybe even England).

[Dreadnaht1]

Well then perhaps U$A is the new 'Classical Empire.'

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

Yes, that'll probably tvrn ovt to be trve. Of covrse, the world is a lot different now than it was back then, so who knows how people will view today's world in 2,000 years.

The "Bush Salad" will replace the Ceasar Salad, and it will have cocaine on it instead of parmesan cheese.

[Dreadnaht1]

Yes and when you eat it little spikes will fly out through the roof of your mouth and into your brain. I don't think that's going to be a popular dish. But then again it's not like Bush is a popular presid...person. He's not a popular person, if you really want to call him a person.

[peaccenicked]

Meanwhile back on the ranch

More blacks are driving economy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forming, expanding businesses spark buying power


By John Eckberg
The Cincinnati Enquirer
Bolstered by an economic expansion through the 1990s, a new generation of African-American wealth is reshaping and reinvigorating the Tristate.

SUCCESS STORIES

Clockwise from top left:
• Roy Mitchell: CPA stresses education
• Richard Coleman: VP taking Onyx to the crest
• Stephen Bailey: His goal: Keep America working
• Lisa Rowell: 'People must strive for excellence'
• Eric Thomas and Wayne Miller: Buzz good on sports talk radio
• Pat Simmons: Alliance more than networking
• Ron DeLyons: Boyhood success gave hint of future

From the radio dial to the factory floor, the boardroom to the lunch meeting, newfound affluence of African-Americans is bringing newfound influence in Greater Cincinnati. Local examples and profiles of business owners and professionals from a number of disciplines accompany this report.

New business formation is a driver behind the newfound wealth.

"A key part of the black labor-market experience is a tendency in recent years to move out and start a business of their own," said Nancy Bertaux, professor of economics and human resources for Xavier University.

"It's probably from frustration with a perceived inability to get ahead. But clearly it's paying off for some."

The story is mirrored on the national stage.

The latest figures from the U.S. Census Bureau show that in 2000, the median household income for African-Americans was $30,400 -- the highest ever.

Though that median income still trailed the median income of whitehouseholds -- pegged at $45,900 -- African-American households had the greatest upswing from 1999 to 2000 with a 5.5 percent rate of income growth.

The Selig Center for Economic Growth at the University of Georgia sees even more evidence of wealth generation in recent years.

The center projects that the national buying power of blacks from 1990 to 2001 grew by 85.9 percent. By comparison, white buying power grew by 67 percent. (Both were outstripped by the 125 percent growth in Asian buying power.)

The center confirmed Ms. Bertaux's assessment that an increasing number of blacks who started or expanded their business contributed mightily to the increase in buying power.

And more studies have reached similar conclusions.

A review of the national African-American market last month by Marketresearch.com found that between 1980 and 2000, blacks experienced a 59 percent gain in income. The population as a whole gained 43 percent.

In other words, some blacks are getting richer and doing it faster than the general population.

The dramatic increase in the number of African-Americans entering college after the civil-rights struggles of the 1960s has led to an exponential wave of prosperity just now being felt.

"We are seeing a second generation of young people who have the opportunity to go to college -- that, without a doubt, is a major factor," said Joyce Ladner, senior fellow in the governmental studies program at Brookings Institution in Washington D.C.

Still, says merchant banker Richard O. Coleman, a Cincinnati native and resident, there is plenty of room for growth. Blacks, as a whole, have a longer path to walk on that road to equity.

"I do see more and more African-Americans working for major corporations, going up the ladder," Mr. Coleman said. "They have pretty nice titles and are in the executive ranks."

The new generation may take a different route, Ms. Ladner predicted. A former academic vice president at Howard University in Washington D.C., Ms. Ladner was surprised a decade ago by the business-creation fervor of a new generation.

"I saw the freshman class come into business school and how they didn't want to be trained to work at a corporation," she said. "But they came in instead with entrepreneurial ideas about how to start their own business."