HardcoreCommie

[CommieBastard]

This guy is nothing more than a vile amerikkkan capitalist trying to argue the communist case down from the inside, pretending to be one of us. My suggestion is that we ignore him completely from now on.

[RedCeltic]

hmmm good to see I'm not the only one who has realised this.

[libereco]

I noticed as well...

[CommieBastard]

new theory.
take a look at the thread 'capitalism'
is it just me or do hardcorecommie, imperial power and Guest 128411319 all have incredibly similar viewpoints? all the same person? methinks: yes.
malte, you can see their IP addresses, can you please confirm this for us?
if they are, i would like to request this person's banning...

[El Che]

Ban him! i really think we should be less tolerent around here! the shit we have to put up with...

[RedCeltic]

I don't know if they are all the same person... but "HardcoreCommie" isn't a HardcoreCommie...

[El Che]

fuck it, ban them all

[CommieBastard]

i say only ban them all if they are all the same person.
i disagree wholeheartedly with people who fuck around with other people's heads like this.

[HardcoreCommie]

geez, you guys take dissent very seriously around here huh? Well, I suppose I'll sit back and watch my purge. Anyway, check the IP. I'll continue to upset the reactionaries within the movement till then.

[CommieBastard]

As I said, i only think you should be banned if you are all the same person, not for your ideas.

one problem is, though, that you could be using more than one computer/modem etc...
and from all that was said in the 'capitalist' thread, well, thats pretty convincing evidence in my mind...

[Edelweiss]

is it just me or do hardcorecommie, imperial power and Guest 128411319 all have incredibly similar viewpoints? all the same person? methinks: yes.

All three IPs are coming from different ISPs or universities. They are probaply all different persons.
Anyway, I don't if Hardcore Commie is really a hardcore commie or not. He has strange viewpoints for a communist and has not much credibility.

[HardcoreCommie]

sorry i haven't fought in the ramparts like the rest of you. WTF?

[CommieBastard]

problem is, i could post on here from my home comp, my dads laptop, and my schools comp and appear to be 3 different people...
and hardcorecommie does seem to be saying exactly the same things as IP and Guest128411319 ...
v.v. dodgy if you ask me...
and at the very least i vote that hardcore commie not ever be allowed access to the commie club, as he is in my eyes an infiltrator, who probably created that acc name simply for the purpose of getting into the commie club...

[Moskitto]

I haven't read all his posts but 2 of them i actually agreed with. I haven't read them all in great detail though.

[HardcoreCommie]

what's the commie club, is that some get together you guys have. Please explain. Plus you should look at writing styles, I would deign to think that my grammar, while far from perfect, is as poor as IP.

[CommieBastard]

well, unless you have shown similarly poor grammar to IP, then what you've just said is that your grammar is the same as IP's....
soooo..... either way u've just stuffed urself :)

[Moskitto]

the commie club is actually quiet boring (no offense to malte or anyone) I can only remember 1 interesting topic in there.

[CommieBastard]

it provides an alternative to having rightwingers like hardcorecommie here getting in the way of serious discussion.

[HardcoreCommie]

geez, right winger. I find it somewhat ironic that just as theMcarthy era insult was commie, you would so liberally throw a libel like rightwinger at someone who disagrees with you. If anything, I think you are the reactionary.

[CommieBastard]

oh, it is not an insult and is not just thrown frivolously.
you see, it is a very serious comment, the commie club is meant as a place of protection from the interruptions of rightwingers...
and the accusation of you being a rightwinger is based upon the many and numerous right wing things you have said... and the distinct lack of left wing ones...

i think you should try going to the political compass site (cant remember the addy, any help anyone?) and answering the q's honestly...

[Moskitto]

before anyone says that all reactionarries are right-wingers. I must remind people of the left-wing reactionarries such as Pol Pot or Robert Mugabe.

Although I'm not completely sure of the definition of reactionarry but If you wanted the term "Left Wing Racist" both figures would fit into that category.

[RedCeltic]

Look man... you have as everyone has said... you have strange views for a communist... probobly wrong to call you a "Right winger" but... are you a "HardcoreCommie" or a "SoftCoreCommie" or a pretend commie... or whatever...

[HardcoreCommie]

yes, right wing statements i've made. Like lets not destroy mcdonalds, and osama bin laden should not be praised. Well if you excuse me I have to goosestep out for a while.

[I Will Deny You]

Just a thought . . .

Che was not actually a communist, and there are some people who think he should have been more left-wing. Perhaps HardcoreCommie is one of those people?

Maybe HardcoreCommie simply disagrees with Che's methods.

Maybe HardcoreCommie likes Che but disagrees with the people here.

I've noticed HardcoreCommie here and I don't think he's a rightwinger. I remember agreeing with a few of his statements and disagreeing with one. It's up to Malte in the end, but I think HardcoreCommie should be allowed to stay.

[CommieBastard]

when i said right wing i did not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean extreme right-wing, or fascist. I very simply meant on the right wing of the political spectrum, along with blair, thatcher, hague, reagan, bush, gore and clinton.

as for right wing statements, you critice the left as if you are not a part of it:
"In my opinion the left is just rehashing old arguments"
"Well that's what the left is doing, only it's not telling us what change is, because it has run out of ideas."

also note this PAST tense:
"I find it kind of disturbing that I fancied myself on the same ideological bandwagon as people like dread"
and as we all know, agusto claimed to once have held communist opinions...

you claim that the political system of the US is flawless, that people should blindly follow the rule of law and the US constitution:
"we have something called a constitution and a rule of law, things are bad but it is the US economic system, not its system of government that is ailing."

you then go on to claim that the problem is that commies arent convincing people, that that is their problem, and not the biased media, and pathetic electoral system of the US:
"The problem with that is that leftist are not making convincing enough arguments to take advantage of the american political system."

you also pick petty arguments with people on points that are incorrect (right wing behaviour if ever i've seen it):
""on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism"

Wait I remember it's a tautology, circular logic. The kind of thing that won't convince people with brains."

also of communist practices you said:
"been tried, doesnt work"

also, you support US reprisals on the world:
"the US justified in defending its interest and personel....if find it ridiculous that people here expect the US to take an assfucking without doing anything"
you go on to yet again reiterate your support for current political systems, and yet again claim that they are adequate for the representation of the people:
"If greece has such a large socialist contingent they should do more to expel the "US presence" through governmental means"

and thats all the examples i can be bothered getting right now, might i reiterate my suggestion that you go to the political compass site and answer honestly?

[CommieBastard]

err, che WAS a communist i think you will find..
it is fidel who wasnt a communist at first.
and hardcorecommie has not shown himself to be more left wing than che, or in fact, than the labour party of the UK, or in fact, of maggie thatcher... well, ok, maybe maggie thatcher...
and yes, hardcorecommie does disagree with the people here, in that he is disagreeing with their communism.
and yes, i agree, if hardcorecommie isnt both imperial power and guest 128411319 then he should definately be allowed to stay. And also, if we cannot prove it... after all, innocent until proven an all...
thus we are stuck with him, no matter how much i might find disgust with his false name...

[HardcoreCommie]

Am i glad to have survived the clutches of chairman Commiebastard?!?!

In any case I think your accusations (if that's what they are cause I stand by all of the statements you've pointed out) do not deserve a defense but a restatement so as to reinforce their validity.
cb says:
"as for right wing statements, you critice the left as if you are not a part of it:
'In my opinion the left is just rehashing old arguments"
'Well that's what the left is doing, only it's not telling us what change is, because it has run out of ideas.'"

Geez, last time I checked there was no leftist membership card, and if there was, you certainly would not have say over said membership. Well yes, I think that rather than ***** about shit, we should propose new solutions. Got a problem with that?

CB says:
also note this PAST tense:
"I find it kind of disturbing that I fancied myself on the same ideological bandwagon as people like dread"
and as we all know, agusto claimed to once have held communist opinions


I think dread said something about terrorism that I found to my dislike, sure, I'm not on the same ideological bandwagon as dread. I don't like to kill people, it's not in my plans and wouldn't be on my check list of things to do before or after the revolution.

CB
you claim that the political system of the US is flawless, that people should blindly follow the rule of law and the US constitution:
"we have something called a constitution and a rule of law, things are bad but it is the US economic system, not its system of government that is ailing."

Obviously I said it was "flawless." Geez where do you get off. I happen to admire the US electoral process, I come from a nation that has suffered because the constitution was ignored (chile). I think it better to follow the constitution then just change it because it doesn't suit your ideology. Moreover I think that we should use the electoral system to our advantage rather than ignore it all together. Legitimacy is not gained through force of arms but through votes. Unfortunately people like you do not help the case.


cb says:
you then go on to claim that the problem is that commies arent convincing people, that that is their problem, and not the biased media, and pathetic electoral system of the US:
"The problem with that is that leftist are not making convincing enough arguments to take advantage of the american political system

No leftist aren't making any arguments. Listen to you for instance, you're selling yesterday's bread. Nader for instance had ideas, we need more people that are willing to use the legislative process as opposed to throwing molotovs.


cb says:
you also pick petty arguments with people on points that are incorrect (right wing behaviour if ever i've seen it):
""on paper, communism frees people, if that doesn't happen in reality then it's not communism

Well talk about pettiness, you were trying to ban me and called me right wing. Mind me, not right wing like a nazi, but right wing nonetheless. Look examine that statement above. Christianity is good, if it hurts people, then it's not christianity.

cb says:
also of communist practices you said:
"been tried, doesnt work"

in reference to someone's suggestion that people go make communes. Yes it's been tried, yes it doesn't work.


cb says:
also, you support US reprisals on the world:
"the US justified in defending its interest and personel....if find it ridiculous that people here expect the US to take an assfucking without doing anything"
you go on to yet again reiterate your support for current political systems, and yet again claim that they are adequate for the representation of the people:
"If greece has such a large socialist contingent they should do more to expel the "US presence" through governmental means"

you're damn right, we can't have our proverbial cake and eat it too. We can't say the US is evil and then when people fuck with it, complain that it is unjustified in conducting reprisals. Doesn't mean I support them, but you can't say okay we're goodguys, that means the badguys can't hit back. Then I think rather then support terrorism as in greece, the socialist members of parliement should put pressure to change things in the long run.


Well I've been to the delphic oracle a while back, although i think it's bullshit, I was something like -6 economic and -4 on the social scale.

[Derar]

Yeah i agree , this guy has some wierd opinions , heartless feelings ....... things that pissed me off .... really !!
and for some reason he gets really angry when someone talks bad about the USA ..... and calls himself a hardcorecommie !! commie my ass ....

[El Che]

i have a few things to say on this issue. Frist of all i think we should be clear, you will not be banned for your beliefs, if i have said something to that effect it is because i am just feed up with bullshit posts that are destroing these forums! We have had hardcore right wingers here before, people that idolise Ronald Reagan and the likes and they where not banned! they just had there arguments riped to sheards and there logic questioned in a way that left them without credibility. But i do have a problem with you, not becoz of your beliefs but becoz you lie. You are not comunist, you have shown that you have no idea what comunism is, you hole theory is that the real comunism doesnt exist simply because in practice it has not yet bin matterialised by any nation. You say that this proves the utopia and inpossibility of the system that is comunism, you also add that the right wing fashist goverments of stalin and china are the real comunism becuase they exist in practice and they call them selves comunist. Well you full of shit but ever one here knows that, any comunist knows that, any marxist can tell you that and most left wingers also know this. Now see thats my problem right there.... Why do you lie friend? well i dont really know but in any case know that the only reason you could be banned is if you disrut intentionaly the debate by doing things like mclaren does, or if you create many users that are all the same person to suport you own views. I dont think you should be banned as of yet, but its disturbes me that you call your self comunist when you are not one.


political compass ---> http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[El Che]

and another thing! do you know what the only time someone was banned for there beliefs was? right after the 11 sept atacks those member that praised the killing of 3 thousand people where banned! that was the only time someone was banned because of what the believed and it goes to show you how well these forums are run and how moderate they are.

[DaNatural]

I personally dont think his views are too "non" commie, but really who cares. He didnt agree with me that we arent alone in this universe but hey i dont hold it against. He has some good points, i assume its because many of you(not all of you) dont like to hear arguments from a different leftist perspective. I dont have a problem with him and judging by the reaction to this post it seems only a few are uncomfortable with his views. peace

[I Will Deny You]

In response to CommieBastard, Gore and Clinton are left-wing, they're just not as left-wing as the people in these forums.

I think HardcoreCommie is a leftist. The fact of the matter is that there is no one way to define what leftist means. He backs up his opinions very well and seems very intelligent.

In response to HardcoreCommie disagreeing with Dread, I have made a couple posts criticizing Dread. Does this mean I am not a leftist? I can tell you that without a doubt, I am indeed on the far left end of the political spectrum.

I personally also happen to respect HardcoreCommie's attitude toward change, that we should try to work with the system and use it against itself. Let's face it, class, a bunch of 16-year-olds with RATM t-shirts and a few leftists who post on this message board between grading papers are NOT about to overthrow the government.

I like being here. I like most of the conversation (which is usually intelligent). I have disagreed with almost everyone here at one point or another, but I have never tried to get anyone banned. I disagree with HardcoreCommie on a number of points but I respect HardcoreCommie for bringing intelligent, thoughtful conversation to these boards.

[Jurhael]

"If greece has such a large socialist contingent they should do more to expel the "US presence" through governmental means"

Hehehhhee...if the Greek government tried that. Be they Socialist or not, they'd be overthrown in a heartbeat and replaced with yet another FAR right winged dictatorship.

Indeed, there's a strong socialist(or shall I say Social Democrat) contigient in Greece. They're what prevented the New Democracy party(who are right-winged) from doing much at all. Unfortunatly, given that Greece is split in half politically, it's hard for either side to do all that much at all.

And NO, I don't support the N17 group. All they do is make things worse for Greece.

[Imperial Power]

What's wrong, can't take a some conflicting view viewpoints? I'm here to try to figure out how you believe what BS you do. I'll also gurantee you I'm not the same person as the other names you mentioned. Stick to your commieclub if you can't take debate. I suppose it's easier for some of you to keep believing the communist fairy tale if I wern't here to point out its weaknesses. Hardcorecommie has simply seen the light, you too can be like him :-)

(Edited by Imperial Power at 2:23 am on Jan. 10, 2002)

[El Che]

quote from i will deny you
In response to CommieBastard, Gore and Clinton are left-wing, they're just not as left-wing as the people in these forums.

Well Frist off all you are wrong, clinton and gore are not left wing. Its left WING and in those that are in the left, not the center left, not the "thrid way" the left. Gore and clinton are neo-liberalist center left criminals and marricones do caralho filhas da puta, they are these things but they are not leftists. RedCeltics Democratic socialist party are an example of the fragile left in the US.

And second of all, with all the crap, all the mclarens that show up i think its understandable that some of the old members in particular (like CB) are a bit edgy. This guy hardcorecommie is really not that bad, i am actualy convienced he is a leftist. But due to his name and due to some off his statements that are not in conformity with the views of true socialists and comunists some of us thought he was trying to pull something off or was just another right winger trying to disrupt. Maybe not, time will tell. BUT NOW LETS DROP IT.

[RedCeltic]

Your right El Che... seeing the name "HardcoreCommie" one would expect a person who is a militant hardliner... so, when he comes accross as not being this all kinds of bells go off in one's head... and we have jumped to conclusions.

Point is he seems more moderate than someone who you would expect to use the name "HardcoreCommie"... after all... me being a Democratic Socialist... and a pacifist I'm also more moderate than such a title as well.

Being constantly under seige from people who hate us has finnaly taken a toll and now we are attacking our own kind...

[El Che]

quote from RedCeltic
Being constantly under seige from people who hate us has finnaly taken a toll and now we are attacking our own kind...


sad day indeed comrade....

[HardcoreCommie]

sorry for not fitting in to your sterotype, but from what I've seen, I think I'm more serious about commmunism than alot of people here.

For instance, people like CB keep spouting off tired lines about Marxism that marginilize people rather than attract them to the ideology. Preaching class warfare when you have a reliable electoral system is rather stupid. I understand that you don't feel the electoral systems of western republics are fair. Yet I can assure you that the reason communists are not typically victorious in elections is not because of inherent pitfalls in the system, but because people like CB automatically disregard the electoral system based on its supposed pitfalls.

Unlike them I'm actually trying to propose a change in mentality that may help marxism adapt to the changing reality of post-industrialization. Classical Marxist class analysis is defunct, there is no bourgoise interest and proleteriat interest. There is sector division among the mass of people that we would traditionally classify in either of these groups. For example what may be good for steel mill workers may not help auto workers, and so on.

Furthermore, the end of the cold war gives communist an opportunity to get rid of the totalitarian mantle. I don't believe that the US is inherently anti-communist, such an interpretation of american actions and interests betrays a simple understanding of geo-politics. America is not an ideological state, it is not anti-communist. Rather like the USSR, or Russia, and Germany(at one point) America is a hegemonic state. The 20th century created a situation in which hegemonic states needed to incorporate ideology to mobilize their populations to maintain their power, germany mobilized under a nazi, racial ideology. Russia mobilized under a totalitarian, communist banner, and the US under a wilsonian capitalist banner.

Yet the US mobilization was a reaction to that of Germany and Russia. It didn't occur until 1941, long after nazi germany begun to expand its borders, and long after the USSR used institutions like the COMINTERN to spread its ideology.

For this reason I find comments about the "fascist" american government and "ignorant" american people out of place and detrimental to any successful communist change.

America is not capitalism, it is just good at it. You wouldn't kill a crack addict cause you hate crack?

[El Che]

Hardcorecommie may i say that i almost entirely disagree with you.

Tells start with wat i do agree with in you preception of the post modern era and the apropriate course of action for the elucidated left. I agree that dogmas do not aply to such complex sistems as the ones we analyse and propose to change. There for i believe and i think you would agree that a situationist aproch is what is required, views case by case what the apropriate action is to and minorise the injustices and situations of misery caused by capitalism. This must be done by the left in each contry and by consequence in differente realities and situations. I also believe the "relible electoral sistem" is the ticket to give power to the left in order to bring to effect the veryous changes and reforms that should be done.

I dont share your opinion as to the relevance of marx in todays world, nore do i share your view of the capitalist system, niether do i share your view of america`s role in the world and the intentions of there actions.
As foresaid if we view the works of marx, engles, trotsky,rosa luxemburg, william morris and many others like those in the anarchist school of thought, if we view them not as dogmas but as valid projects from which we can take much and receive much guidance then we are on the right path. You seem to want to scrap all that and head for some ideologicaly void direction... tell me are you even aint capitalist? because if your not that the problem with your logic right there. ill give you an example:

you say the US is not inherently aint comunist. Now if the direction i and all other comunists (be they totaliterian or not) point to is the ultimate goal of the end of capitalism in favor of a new wealth production and distribution system, and by consequence a new society. If this is the goal of any comunist or socialist then in that case how do you come to the conclusion that the US is not aint comunist? Capitalism is what gave america power, all its actions the world over are in the most part intentionaly directed at maintaining this control. ideological and philosophical theories and projects of society aimed and abolishing this sistem are not compatible with the US`s intersts there fore they are they enemy of the same. The only reason i can think of for this rather confusing and contredictory view is that you some how precieve the "classical" comunism to be something obsolete and the capitalist reality to be something of inevitable. In which case in the two are no longer incompatible. If your view of the new leftist agenda is something else than the ultimate goal of replacing capitalism for a humane system, then in that case i guess the US would have little or no problem view such a folish position since it does not threaten its interests. Im not saying that capitalism should be banned over night, i am convinved this is not possible and we start be reforming and restraining it, but mind you the ultimate goal its destruction. And the fundamentation both for the legitimacy of the goal and the possible alternatives to capitalism is in marx and the others aforesaid, that you reject. Please try and explain some of you beliefs more clearly.

[I Will Deny You]

I feel like I should come to HardcoreCommie's defense here, since everyone seems to be ganging up on him and I think he's brought up some great points.

Quote: from El Che on 5:20 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
you say the US is not inherently aint comunist. Now if the direction i and all other comunists (be they totaliterian or not) point to is the ultimate goal of the end of capitalism in favor of a new wealth production and distribution system, and by consequence a new society. If this is the goal of any comunist or socialist then in that case how do you come to the conclusion that the US is not aint comunist?HardcoreCommie compared America's anti-communism to Germany's Nazism, which makes a lot of sense. Germany, however, is not inherently anti-semitic. There are definitely anti-communists in America just like I'm sure there are anti-semites in Germany, but the way that anti-communism or anti-semitism manifest themselves are what (it seemed to me that) HardcoreCommie was referring to.

Quote: from El Che on 5:20 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
The only reason i can think of for this rather confusing and contredictory view is that you some how precieve the "classical" comunism to be something obsolete and the capitalist reality to be something of inevitable. It is entirely possible to consider "classical" communism obsolete while still disagreeing with capitalism and viewing it as only one of many options, so it would be best not to jump to conclusions, but rather ask questions (respectfully).

[Moskitto]

My dad said that the US foreign policy is Fascist and he's a capitalist.

Then again I believe you're American so you might not see it in the way that the rest of the world sees it (no offense or anything.) But the thing is a lot of people where I live think the problem with America is that a lot of people hate them but the Americans aren't told why so they don't do anything about it.

And I agree with I Will Deny You about thinking classical communism is obsolete but still being able to disagree with capitalism.

[booga]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 9:34 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
err, che WAS a communist i think you will find..
it is fidel who wasnt a communist at first.
and hardcorecommie has not shown himself to be more left wing than che, or in fact, than the labour party of the UK, or in fact, of maggie thatcher... well, ok, maybe maggie thatcher...
and yes, hardcorecommie does disagree with the people here, in that he is disagreeing with their communism.
and yes, i agree, if hardcorecommie isnt both imperial power and guest 128411319 then he should definately be allowed to stay. And also, if we cannot prove it... after all, innocent until proven an all...
thus we are stuck with him, no matter how much i might find disgust with his false name...


CB believe me the last thing i want i to upset you but how can you just say Che was a communist? maybe he supported some of the ideas and theory but how did Che live the communist life? pls give an example. i have spent alot of my own free time thinking on Che and what has been written of him the the books and i just dont agree to call him a "hardcore" commie.

i cant go into specifics because im at work, my stats are at home and because i am at poverty level right now (i live like a communist in the US, can you believe that?) (oh except that i have the freedom to spend my last penny on System of A Down concert tickets :) (at a small arena no less :biggrin: ) again...where was i, i dont have a phone line for computer.

I doubt Che's label as commie mainly because of his most important speech "Afro-Asia" and if he was so hardcore why didnt he just become a communist when he had the chance just to become a doctor, no instead he took the hard long road because he had ideas that supported the right way for all of the people. If fighting "injustice" makes you a "commie" then oh well, but then why do the Germans blame the "Communists" for the death of J.K.??

CB there is good and bad in all groups which makes it hard for the people who are sincere and really do have love in their hearts. I dont know anything about "hardcore commie" or should i say i wasnt as "impressed with him as i could say....

(Edited by booga at 10:52 pm on Jan. 10, 2002)

[gogo gomez]

Booga, you really should get more studied so you dont look like such a idiot the people here are brilliant and they probably come from good schools and universities. You read too deeply in imagination when you should just read your school books not the old books you find at the thrift stores. Your crazy Booga, deal with it.

Oh and by the way US has power because of money? Okay where is it? To me the one with the power is the one who walks into the business office with the stacks of the currency not the contract and the credit limit.
What i have learned (thru books) is that there are certain groups who infiltrated into all parts of the world and these groups were filthy freaking rich.. so rich they want to destroy man (for what else is there to destroy?)
Yes, mine is a simple observation, yet i base its truth only from books, i have not lived life much of anything only with love and an inquenchable thirst for the "truth".

Everything is minor details to be sorted out within time by no less the brilliant minds of the world. Best to you all.

[HardcoreCommie]

Because as we all know...if it's in a book, it must be true...[sigh]

[Capitalist]

Just for the record.

I'am Capitalist - The other two are not me - nor am I them.

My name is Patrick McCarron - Please do not confuse me with McLaren (He should be ignored - not me or other serious opponents)

I do not think Che Guevara is a joking matter, nor the millions killed by communistic empires. I do not mind joking every now and then - but there is a limit.

I like to drop in periodically and blow everyone's ideology away with my own thoughts and truth. I try to limit my words and not hog this internet site.

When I make postings - I immediately receive multiple debate from everyone - and I try my best to debate back with everyone on this site.

However - after a while I grow tired and like to take a break from this site so that others have a turn to express their opinions.

I can be very socialistic at times.

I do like to share bulletin board with others, however if someone challenges me - I like to make a point to come back.

The one thing I respect (not necessarily like - but respect) is a passion for politics - no matter who's side you are on.

[DaNatural]

good post capitalist, however i dont like your pic of che with the line going across him. I agree with you tho, when u say that u enjoy politics and enjoy debate, regardless of left or right. Peace

[El Che]

I will deny you, you toke my quotes out of context and made a big mess. You did not understand a word i said.




HardcoreCommie compared America's anti-communism to Germany's Nazism, which makes a lot of sense. Germany, however, is not inherently anti-semitic. There are definitely anti-communists in America just like I'm sure there are anti-semites in Germany, but the way that anti-communism or anti-semitism manifest themselves are what (it seemed to me that) HardcoreCommie was referring to.

Look the US is aint capitalist and i dont care if its inherit or not. Nobody is inherently nothing, but the society of the US is ferouciously aint comunist aint socialist aint anything that proposes a new system to replace the inhumane capitalist one. This is thought to its young both in school and out side of it trough propaganda. HardcoreCommie also said "the US is not capitalist its just good at it" ?? wtf? do you ignore "hardcoreCommie" all the actions of the US gov. to preserve this system? Do ignore the extent to which the US is capable of going to preserve the interts of its capitalist elite?




It is entirely possible to consider "classical" communism obsolete while still disagreeing with capitalism and viewing it as only one of many options, so it would be best not to jump to conclusions, but rather ask questions (respectfully).

frist of all i was not ofensive so i dont apreciate the paternalism ok? good. Secondly hardcoreCommie said "Classical Marxist class analysis is defunct, there is no bourgoise interest and proleteriat interest." i disagree with this, marxism is as valid to day as it was in the past and there is much intrest in know its analises. "Unlike them I'm actually trying to propose a change in mentality that may help marxism adapt to the changing reality of post-industrialization." this new mentality does not require you to disregard the ideological theories of the past, and i dont nore do i agree with those that do, they will inevetably end up being integrated into the capitalist sistem like the socialist parties of todays europe, or the third way parties that while having done some small reformes are perfectly content with the capitalist economy and have no intention, far from it, to evolve.

If you want to defend hardcorecommie dont take my frases out of context and make a big mess because then your just going to make me have lots of trouble explain everything again. If you wish to intervine talk about the issues and present your own arguments or prove me wrong if you disagree with me. Same goes for you HardcoreCommie, i`ve not yet heard your reply to my previous post.

[HardcoreCommie]

asking a favor:

would you refer me to "your previous post" the threads are getting mixed up now and I'm not sure which one you may be referring to. Thanks.

[El Che]

my previous post in this very thread. np.

[El Che]

from capitalist
I'am Capitalist

you are a fool, a capitalist is a banker or a Corporation CEO

(Edited by El Che at 4:56 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

Bill Gates is a Capitalist... your just someone who wants to keep him rich.

[Dreadnaht1]

I'm now ignoring all "stupid" posts posted both by capitalists and leftists alike. These little childish posts are an insult to our intelligence!

-Dread

[HardcoreCommie]

why are only they capitalists? What about small business owners, and workers who are in control of their labor. If you define capitalism by some pre-industrial gilded age stereotype you will not advance the struggle far, as you'll be attacking a false target. Capitalist is quite right, he is a capitalist, in the fullest sense of the word.

[El Che]

hardcore commie you are ignoring my person and are just trying to get this thread off track again.

[HardcoreCommie]

Quote: from El Che on 5:20 pm on Jan. 10, 2002
Hardcorecommie may i say that i almost entirely disagree with you.

Tells start with wat i do agree with in you preception of the post modern era and the apropriate course of action for the elucidated left. I agree that dogmas do not aply to such complex sistems as the ones we analyse and propose to change. There for i believe and i think you would agree that a situationist aproch is what is required, views case by case what the apropriate action is to and minorise the injustices and situations of misery caused by capitalism. This must be done by the left in each contry and by consequence in differente realities and situations. I also believe the "relible electoral sistem" is the ticket to give power to the left in order to bring to effect the veryous changes and reforms that should be done.

I dont share your opinion as to the relevance of marx in todays world, nore do i share your view of the capitalist system, niether do i share your view of america`s role in the world and the intentions of there actions.
As foresaid if we view the works of marx, engles, trotsky,rosa luxemburg, william morris and many others like those in the anarchist school of thought, if we view them not as dogmas but as valid projects from which we can take much and receive much guidance then we are on the right path. You seem to want to scrap all that and head for some ideologicaly void direction... tell me are you even aint capitalist? because if your not that the problem with your logic right there. ill give you an example:

you say the US is not inherently aint comunist. Now if the direction i and all other comunists (be they totaliterian or not) point to is the ultimate goal of the end of capitalism in favor of a new wealth production and distribution system, and by consequence a new society. If this is the goal of any comunist or socialist then in that case how do you come to the conclusion that the US is not aint comunist? Capitalism is what gave america power, all its actions the world over are in the most part intentionaly directed at maintaining this control. ideological and philosophical theories and projects of society aimed and abolishing this sistem are not compatible with the US`s intersts there fore they are they enemy of the same. The only reason i can think of for this rather confusing and contredictory view is that you some how precieve the "classical" comunism to be something obsolete and the capitalist reality to be something of inevitable. In which case in the two are no longer incompatible. If your view of the new leftist agenda is something else than the ultimate goal of replacing capitalism for a humane system, then in that case i guess the US would have little or no problem view such a folish position since it does not threaten its interests. Im not saying that capitalism should be banned over night, i am convinved this is not possible and we start be reforming and restraining it, but mind you the ultimate goal its destruction. And the fundamentation both for the legitimacy of the goal and the possible alternatives to capitalism is in marx and the others aforesaid, that you reject. Please try and explain some of you beliefs more clearly.



Traditional Marxist analysis has very little relevance for us today. It's much like Newtonian physics to a scientist that's working on relativistic theories. You admit that

"I also believe the "relible electoral sistem" is the ticket to give power to the left in order to bring to effect the veryous changes and reforms that should be done"

If the reliable electoral system to which I refered to is "the ticket" to victory then you must realize that the traditional marxist view, in which bourgeoise democracies hinder socialist progress doesn't apply anymore.


You say that I "some how precieve the "classical" comunism to be something obsolete and the capitalist reality to be something of inevitable. "

Well LIke i said classical communism is obsolete, and yes by virtue of it beign "capitalist REALITY" it is inevitable. We are not struggling with a theoretical situtation, capitalism exists it is a reality, that is what we struggle with.

Finally you begin by saying that: "There for i believe and i think you would agree that a situationist aproch is what is required, views case by case what the apropriate action is to and minorise the injustices and situations of misery caused by capitalism"

This sounds very pragmatic, I agree witihin a capitalist society we should be trying to steady the capital share of profit and increase the labor share of profit, that is something which is done in the US by things like progressive taxation.

But then you go on to say:"Im not saying that capitalism should be banned over night, i am convinved this is not possible and we start be reforming and restraining it, but mind you the ultimate goal its destruction"

I don't know what happened to being pragmatic, but that streak is certainly gone at this point. The destruction of capitalism is ugly business, too ugly for me.

You take contention with my name, expecting some militant hardliner or something, but you must realize that the spirit of marxism isn't in the overthrow of capitalism, but in the improvement of the lot of the poor. The strenght of marxism doesn't lie in its ideological opposition to capitalism but in that it supposedly values people greater than capital. Well you seem to have too much of an ideological hard on to really see that it's people that matter.

There is a thread entitled nike workers to tiger woods or something. Well in the letter to tiger woods the workers at the nike plant said that THEY WANTED NIKE JOBS. Well I think they know better than me as to what is good for them. And I'm not going to push to overthrow their jobs and livelyhood for ideology. Look nobody eats ideas.

[Edelweiss]

HardcoreCommie, maybe you are hardcore in the US, but here in Europe we call people like you Social Democrats...

[HardcoreCommie]

Well I suppose when European Communist have the luxuries provided for by their capitalist systems they can allow ideology to trup pragmatic values based on results. But as the Nike Workers have testified, they need the jobs, ideology doesn't matter to them, its eating and living that does. But then again that's always been the problem with socialism, you have jackoff thinkers out of touch with the populous, like gramsci, speaking of workers vanguards and thinking in terms of epochs. They don't realize that the workers aren't morons and should not be led by the hand as if they were kids, and the workers don't think in terms of this week and next.

[libereco]

RedCeltic is right, without capital you arn't a capitalist....you're a supporter.

[El Che]

Good now ive pinned you down hardcore, your a third way kind of guy. Well consider this, all the production of nike, all its wealth is produced by its workers. Nike owners get rich and nike workers get shity wages. This is fundamentaly wrong and i am one of those that think it should be changed. You are not, you just think nike workers should get a little more money at the end of the day and that will make it all right. You try and discredit me by saying my position is not realistic and couldnt be put in practice. But you fail because i know what you know and i play by your rules, i just dont give up what i believe in and what i think is right. I know its currently impossible to change the system because there is not enof suport for that change. Thats why
i said and will say again the frist step, the one i think i can help with in my life time, is reform heavy taxes on the rich and heavy restrictions on corporate mafia. With time im sure the day will come when capitalism is abolished, but im not obcesed with the idea, on the contrary i am very pragmatic as you say. I want to change little things everyday, little things that either benefit the workers or harm the capitalists have my warm suport. But i am not one of those that lose focuss, i dont sell out my marixism for my pragmatism i keep them both recognising what is possible to do. We must can only do what we can.

[HardcoreCommie]

So nike workers should have complete control over the nike plant...

This assumes that nike sneakers are a natural resource of the nation in which nike produces, and that nike is simply harvesting those sneakers. That ofcourse is not the case.

Nike workers aren't born nike workers, they chose employment at a Nike plant. Moreover without nike, as those workers pointed out, they would have no jobs.

So perhaps you think you should get kudos for your idealism, the problem is that your protests aren't going to change the world, while you protest people will continue to go hungry, etc. The nike workers don't give a shit if you protest, they just want a little more money at the end of the day.

You say I'm a "third way" guy, if that means I'm more proactive in my approach for helping the poor, then by all means label me anything you like. I just don't see any of your idealism feeding anyone.

[El Che]

Our disagreence is academic not practical. That is to say that i like you want to push for better condictions and better wages for workers, probably much more than you do.

[CommieBastard]

oh for the love of...

Nike workers do not CHOSE employment at a nike plant, it is the ONLY option they are presented with...
it's the only bloody employment available to them, either that or some other shitty factory which also pays them just about enough to survive while working 15 hours a frikkin day.
Such capitalist ventures put extreme pressure on local governments, who do not put a minimum wage there simply because of threats that the companies will go elsewhere. The companies play the countries against one another, force them to compete with other countries simply desperate for employment. By these capitalist practices of divide and counquer, companies such as nike ensure that they can pay a bare minimum for someone to work harder than any person should be (some of the hours these people are forced to work are ridiculous) And protest and revolution CAN change the World, as has been proven in the past, and protesting can get these people more money. If we protest and educate the consumers then they can actually boycott the unethical products, and force in ethical practice. One step closer to socialism.

And i don't know what el che means by third way, but i know exactly what it means in this country. The 'Third Way' is New Labours hashing together of socialist ideology to excuse capitalist practices.

[El Che]

thats exacly what i mean by third way i.e parties void of ideology and complacent and apologistic of capitalism and capitalist practices.

[Capitalist]

A Capitalist is anyone who invests.

Capital = Money used for investment purposes.

[CommieBastard]

no, that's a capitalist, with a small 'c'

[HardcoreCommie]

Nike workers could very well leave industrial centers and go back to their villages and live the way they did before becoming nike workers. Nobody puts guns to their head and says you must work in Nike factories. It's just that the lives they live from the wages they get in those factories are better than what was in place before.
This might sound crazy to you, but people care about material wealth, they want more of it, and that goes for Nike workers too. They'd rather have shitty tv and mcdonalds and coca cola, then live in their villages, otherwise they wouldn't choose to move to industrial centers and work in factories.

In reference to "idelogically void" parties, you seem to imply that they are bad. Perhaps you should take note to what I've tried to point out to you, that ideology doesn't feed people, and if parties throw ideology by the wayside in favor of results than it's quite ridiculous to criticize them. for the sake of ideological purity.

[CommieBastard]

if they are doing something to improve people, they have an ideology, if they are doing anything that might help, then they have what is called managerialism. If, however, they are like New Labour and other third way parties, then they are just people who use socialism to get themselves elected, and then sit around saying that the improvements will come soon, you've just got to wait... while carrying on privatising things and shitting people's lives up. And from what i've seen of what you've been saying, you'd make a pretty much ideal New Labour Minister...

And if you don't hold an ideology, then how exactly are you a hardcore commie?

as for nike workers, they don't have any alternatives, because it's either work in a nike factory, or work on the farm land owned by other corporations. Alternatively they can live in hedged out areas where there's shit all resources, simply because the only places available are those the corporations dont want.
as for tv, mcdonalds and coke, i am surprised you think that these people actually get these things... you are obviously unaware of how capitalism works, the luxuries are only afforded to the bourgoisie, otherwise known as the west, the proletariat, or third world, gets nothing but anguish.

[El Che]

Look HardcoreCommie as i have explained to you time and time again the fact that i dont disregard the philosophical and ideolgical theories and analises that prove capitalism to be an unjust system at every turn doesnt mean i let that get in the way of my practicality. Im not trying to change the world into an "Utopian" system over night, with some kind of revolution. What i want are real actions taken by my goverment to restrain the capitalist powers, make them pay heavy taxes, limit there freedom of movements, heavly tax short term investments and force them to have social obligations. I want strong the goverment to have 0 tolerance for things like the privatisation and exploration of medicine industries by capitalist corporations. I want better wages, better pensions, well fare, all of this payed by taxing the rich`s eye balls out and combating there tax evasion. I could go on and on and on about these type of laws that i want passed. My ideology in no way effects this, nore does it cloud the cold effectiveness that i know is required to bring the right political force into power in order to put these things in practice. People dont want to hear about marx, they wont vote on you if that the way you present your case. To think for one second that i dont understand this would be to gravly underestimate me. People want to hear about the things that concern them, and thats exactly what they are going to get from a left such as mine. They are going to get there issues adressed the way should!

Now you say "oh your ideology doesnt feed people", this is well... kind of dumb. Because i dont rely on my ideology to better the condictions of people. I rely on the practical side that is what this is all about. But ideology has its place, and although its not possible to try and replace capitalism, we keep in mind exaclty because of our ideology our marxism our trostskyism etc, we keep in mind that our aim is to go as far as possible against the capitalists and there interests. Thats the value of ideology within the new post modern left. Thats what will keep it from selling out, like others have done. Thats what defirenciates me from "third way" parties or center left. I dont think you will understand me because its got to be like the fourth time im explaining this to your capitalist self but who cares...

(Edited by El Che at 8:11 am on Jan. 13, 2002)