Employment rates up In Cuba [Archive]

Comrade Ceausescu

28th February 2004, 06:22

Employment rates up

BY SARA MAS—Granma daily staff writer—

WITH the creation of new jobs and the implementation of several programs in 2003, Cuba attained a 68% employment rate by the end of last year, representing a five point increase over eight years, as was announced yesterday during the annual meeting of the Ministry of Labor and Social Security.

That indicator is in the range of target figures for the European Union for 2010, while at the same time, unemployment in Cuba stands at 2.3%, one of the lowest rates in the world, noted Minister Alfredo Morales Cartaya.

Last year, a total of 128,122 new jobs were created, 48% of them in the eastern provinces and mainly benefiting young people and women.

Morales added that the country has achieved full employment status, an indicator the International Labor Organization (ILO) establishes when the unemployment rate fluctuates between 2-6%, and there is an existing capacity for a rapid response to job demand for jobs with decent work.

In addition to the new posts generated by the Revolution’s programs, including the training courses for social workers, student teachers, nurses, health technicians, and the opening of video rooms, a key pillar in that strategy has been that of study-as-work. It has been developed on the basis of the creation and continuity of a comprehensive educational improvement program for young people who are not working or in school, more than 100,900 students are currently enrolled.

Added to that total are the 43,121 sugar workers who decided to enroll in full-time study after the restructuring of that industry, in a context of salary and labor policies guaranteeing that the income protection for that sector’s workers.

Through the urban agriculture program, 9,074 new jobs were created, although it has not yet reached the necessary stability in terms of incorporating workers due to organizational problems, training, conditions and other reasons.

During 2003, 15,412 persons with disabilities were also placed in work, 87% of them in regular jobs and a further 2,170 enrolled into training centers for social and work skills.

In general germs, the impact of the island’s employment policy is also reflected in an increased rate of activity, estimated at 70%, indicating the relationship between the number of people who are economically active and the labor-age population.

In the area of social security, various steps have been taken in attention to mothers with severely disabled children. Different plans with this group are being followed up this year, focussing on giving attention to non-working mothers within this group.

While modest advances were acknowledged in the areas of workers’ health and safety, a warning was sounded on the incipient resurgence of accidents caused by negligence and noncompliance with standards.

Lack of discipline, lack of supervision by those responsible, badly organized work and insufficient training were cited as the principal causes of workplace accidents and professional illnesses.

Red Guard

28th February 2004, 16:01

Sounds like great news for the people of Cuba. :)

Hoppe

28th February 2004, 16:59

Last year, a total of 128,122 new jobs were created

n addition to the new posts generated by the Revolution’s programs, including the training courses for social workers, student teachers, nurses, health technicians, and the opening of video rooms, a key pillar in that strategy has been that of study-as-work.

A bit artificial, isn't it?

Fidel Castro

29th February 2004, 01:32

The creation of any employment is a positive step. I'm glad to see that Cuba is continuing to drag itself out of the economic slump it's been in over the last decade.

Loknar

29th February 2004, 05:54

wow %68 unemployment. That's certainly worse than the great depression.

I know Castro-while an asshole-is a capable ruler.

shyguywannadie

29th February 2004, 13:29

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:54 AM
wow %68 unemployment. That's certainly worse than the great depression.

I know Castro-while an asshole-is a capable ruler.
Loknar could you please tell me where it says 68% unemployment?

I can see where it says 68% employment but not 68% unemployment :blink:

Osman Ghazi

29th February 2004, 16:12

Also, by 68% employment they mean 68% of the population not of the workforce as you would measure in Canada or U$.

Akasha

29th February 2004, 17:17

Hey Loknar...what makes Castro an asshole?

STI

29th February 2004, 21:57

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 05:47 PM

Employment rates up in Cuba

And it's still piss-poor. HAHAHA.

what makes Castro an asshole?

Is that a trick question? :D
Well... as long as we're being insulting:

YOU SUCK!

Does this mean I win the debate?

:rolleyes:

Invader Zim

29th February 2004, 22:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 11:02 PM
Ah you're killing me :lol:

Ontario lifeguards union? HAHAHA now I know why you're a fucking idiot... too much cold water in the head. :P
Ah you're killing me :lol:

If only...

And it's still piss-poor. HAHAHA.

Compaired to what?

5.6 percent in the USA? Well as the USA's figure doesn't include the dependant population like I belive Cuba's does your comparison is foolish, and gives a false impression of the situation. Ohh and BTW 5.6 is piss poor.

UK - 4.9... and dont you US rightwing republican types call us socialist?

LOL

Comrade Ceausescu

29th February 2004, 23:03

And it's still piss-poor. HAHAHA.

Thats because the blockades are still there,and its still one of the best off countries in Latin America.HAHAHA.

Comrade Ceausescu

29th February 2004, 23:21

WTF? Only the US refuses to trade with Cuba. Everyone else would too if they had anything to offer.

The US would be a huge trading partner.And if they lifted the travel ban that would also help Cuba's economy.

Population:
Infant mortality rate:
total: 7.15 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 6.19 deaths/1,000 live births (2003 est.)
male: 8.06 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 76.8 years
male: 74.38 years
female: 79.36 years (2003 est.)
Total fertility rate:
1.61 children born/woman (2003 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
less than 0.1% (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:
3,200 (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - deaths:
120 (2001 est.)
Religon:
nominally 85% Roman Catholic prior to CASTRO assuming power; Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, and Santeria are also represented
Languages:
Spanish
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
female: 96.9% (2003 est.)
male: 97.2%
total population: 97%

Compared to Ecuador(a country in Latin America I picked at random)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 31.97 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 26.39 deaths/1,000 live births (2003 est.)
male: 37.28 deaths/1,000 live births
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 71.89 years
male: 69.06 years
female: 74.86 years (2003 est.)
Total fertility rate:
2.99 children born/woman (2003 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
0.3% (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:
20,000 (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - deaths:
1,700 (2001 est.)
Religions:
Roman Catholic 95%
Languages:
Spanish (official), Amerindian languages (especially Quechua)
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 92.5%
male: 94%
female: 91% (2003 est.)

Thats just a few categories.Source?Cia world fact book :lol: I challenge you to compare it with other Latin American countries and see what exactly you find.

LuZhiming

29th February 2004, 23:24

WTF? Only the US refuses to trade with Cuba. Everyone else would too if they had anything to offer. :lol:

Actually, the embargo bans any U.S. made products, regardless of where you get them. And I don't think you understand what often happens to people who trade with Cuba. Soviet Union? Gone. Maurice Bishop? Gone. Daniel Ortega? Gone. Even Manuel Noriega was overthrown when he started allowing trade with Cuba.

STI

29th February 2004, 23:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:02 PM
Ah you're killing me :lol:

Ontario lifeguards union? HAHAHA now I know why you're a fucking idiot... too much cold water in the head. :P
Reasons why that was a ridiculous statement:

1) You have less than 10 posts, so I doubt you've been around here long enough to know anything about me, let alone whether or not I'm "a fucking idiot" (a genious statement in itself).

2) Becoming a lifeguard requires a good deal of training and learning. Well over 200 hours, when all is said and done (including Instructors' training). I've seen idiots and I know they can't pass.

3) Most lifeguards spend most of their job time out of the water, looking for potential situations.

4) There are non- idiot lifeguards and non- lifeguard idiots, so you can't make the logical conclusion that being a lifeguard (in training, actually) causes one to become an idiot.

5) It was an ad hominem remark which just caused you to lose more credability than you already have.

Satisfied?

Comrade Ceausescu

1st March 2004, 00:04

Ahh, but before Fidel and his ilk took power Cuba was the richest nation in the Carribean! Now look at it...

Yeah,there was a rich elite.Those rich people who backed Batista.Everyone else lived in extreme poverty.Personally I think you know nothing about Cuba,because this is now the second time I have proved you wrong.

Comrade Ceausescu

1st March 2004, 00:05

And since the revolution,things have improved a ton.In education,health care,housing,etc.

Lardlad95

1st March 2004, 00:07

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:52 AM
Ahh but before Fidel and his ilk took power Cuba was the richest nation in the Carribean! Now look at it...
....Richest? WHo was rich? The elitist Batistaists who sold out to American buisnessmen? Or the common man who didn't have an education, or health care?

Well Now the common man has health care and free education. And the elitist buisnessman's son is in the United States trying to opress people here.

Comrade Ceausescu

1st March 2004, 00:21

Anyone who thinks Cuba has universal healthcare is a fool. The healthcare systems that exist are reserved for party cadres. It is the same for every communist country (I'd know since I lived in one).

Give me proof.And what country did you live in?To me,you sound like an 11 year old.

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 00:23

"che_the_war_criminal", sorry, but you are a fucking idiot, and I highly recommend you are thrown into the ranks of the restricted members.

Cuba poses no threat to the security of the U$A, but the Yanqui's continue to persue a vindictive policy against the people of Cuba, yes THE PEOPLE OF CUBA. Namely the embargo, travel ban and continued threat of invasion.

Despite the Yanks Imperialistc policy towards a nation that (shock horror!) dared to issue agrarian reform at the expense of U$ companies, and also (what gaul!) dared to persue foreign policy that was not the same as the U$'s and then (FUCKING HELL!) they dared to become, SOCIALIST!!!!! Yes, despite the U$ policy against Cuba, which has included terrorism (I guess in the war against terror the U$A is a legitimate target?) attempted invasion, attempted assasination and mass genocide through starvation. (I notice that the U$ hasn't had much success when trying to force Cuba to bend to their will)

Nope, despite all the efforts of the U$ Cuba has become famous for it's excellent Health and Education systems, falling unemployment, and growing international support.

Let's face it, before the revolution Cuba was simply the U$'s whore. A playground for Yanqui's that was being pillaged of her natural resources by American companies.

Well, Fidel and the huge majority of Cubans have basically told the U$ cappie bastards to go and fuck
themselves (but in politer terms), and to take Batista's scumbag thugs in Miami with them.

el_profe

1st March 2004, 00:34

I would doubt that if Cuba was so great 3 million people would of left, and most of those left after Fidel got there.

I know a cuban doctor that went to Guatemala in those exchange programs that some latin american countries have with cuba, and the doctor told me how they ran out of essential instruments and supplies (like golves) in the hospitals. Also the clothing provided by the gov. is crappy and very little, you only get 3 pairs of underwear a year. And bad quality too. Shoes are also in limited supply, they usually need to depend from clothing sent by there relatives living in other countries.

And for anyone who talks about Cubas great doctors and, Cuba was know for having good doctors before Fidel got there in FACT in the 50's they had more doctors per capita than any other country in latin america and more than many 1st world countries.

Comrade Ceausescu

1st March 2004, 00:35

Just look at all the Cubans who try desperately every year to leave the island prison!

Maybe a few thousand.You can't please everyone.You're a moron.Your username clearly states that.Sod off.These are the kind of people that need to be restricted.

Comrade Ceausescu

1st March 2004, 00:38

And for anyone who talks about Cubas great doctors and, Cuba was know for having good doctors before Fidel got there in FACT in the 50's they had more doctors per capita than any other country in latin america and more than many 1st world countries.

But no one other then the Batistaites were able to afford it.It shows what kind of a person you are,when you defend the fucking Batista regime.

el_profe

1st March 2004, 00:42

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 1 2004, 01:38 AM

And for anyone who talks about Cubas great doctors and, Cuba was know for having good doctors before Fidel got there in FACT in the 50's they had more doctors per capita than any other country in latin america and more than many 1st world countries.

But no one other then the Batistaites were able to afford it.It shows what kind of a person you are,when you defend the fucking Batista regime.
:lol: :lol: :lol: WHo is defending batista?
This was also the case before batista , they where well known for having good doctors before batista.

Also against castro does not mean for batista, you moron.
IN fact why did you think Castro succedede, because many people hated batista, but they later found out Castro was just as bad.

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 00:54

Starvation? I'm confused... you mean when Fidel starved the peasants in the early 50's for refusing to submit to collectivization? As I recall, Fidel's goons burned down their refuges then had them executed as "counter-revolutionaries".

No, the starvation cause by an embargo that has cost the Cuban economy in excess of $75 billion. Could you please provide evidence for your claims.

know a cuban doctor that went to Guatemala in those exchange programs that some latin american countries have with cuba, and the doctor told me how they ran out of essential instruments and supplies (like golves) in the hospitals. Also the clothing provided by the gov. is crappy and very little, you only get 3 pairs of underwear a year. And bad quality too. Shoes are also in limited supply, they usually need to depend from clothing sent by there relatives living in other countries.

I always thought Cuba was classed as a developing country? I thought that Cuba was unable to purchase medical equipment direct from the U$? How can a nation that has been economically almost crippled be expected to provide high quality goods? Cuba is only just beginning to recover from the economic collapse.

And for anyone who talks about Cubas great doctors and, Cuba was know for having good doctors before Fidel got there in FACT in the 50's they had more doctors per capita than any other country in latin america and more than many 1st world countries.

Doctors not available to the peasantry unless they volunteered their services free of charge. Batista's cronies wouldn't have had to struggle for a doctor though.

No, it's just Fidel and his cronies and all the people who are too scared to disagree. Just look at all the Cubans who try desperately every year to leave the island prison!

The majority of Cubans support Fidel I'm afraid, those that do not are usually the ones that leave to join the Batista cappies in Miami.

STI

1st March 2004, 00:58

WHo is defending batista?

Well, for starters, the United States did in the 50s.

.... Funny how ctwc didn't respond to my little critique, though.

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 01:32

You win? :lol: I'm afraid you don't get away with it that easy:

I do not need to read this Black Book of Communism, because I accept that Pol Pot and Stalin were nothing but murderers. I also have my grave doubts about Mao.

Unlike these people, Fidel does not use torture, firing squads or labour camps. Those that supported Batista (committing acts of murder and corruption) were rightfully tried and either jailed, exiled or executed.

I have stated before that the collapse of the USSR was a major factor on the economic collapse in Cuba, and that the embargo is now severly slowing economic recovery.

I go by the numbers, i.e. how many Cubans left or want to leave compared with the ones who stay behind.

So how did you manage to calculate how may Cubans wish to leave the island? Also, please tell me why over a million Cubans will pack the Revolution Plaza to hear Fidel speak when they do not have to do so? Or why at New Year families all over Cuba light bonfires on which they burn dummies of Bush?

You don't win anything by providing a link to some shitty propaganda book on Amazon or claiming that you can tell how many Cuban's want to leave Cuba.

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 01:55

REALLY? You might want to read the Black Book of Communism then.

Lol, death by firing squad has recently been outlawed in Cuba. No UN reports say anything about "gulag" style camps, and Cuba obides by international laws against torture.

Fidel turned Cuba into the shithole it is now. Not the US.

Hahaha, I suppose that is why before the economic collapse the Peso was strong against the dollar, and why the state stores had pleanty supplies. Whilst the Cubans had the support of the USSR, they could continue to prosper economically. When the USSR collapsed, and with the added pressure of the embargo, Cuba has struggled to recover, but the economy is making slow recovery.

So they get their food rations? You still don't realize Cubans are driven by fear of the regime? You really think all that hoopla is spontaneous? How pathetic. You really have no idea what it's like to live under a communist regime do you?

So only the million or so who turn up for a rally or meeting get their rations?? Doubt it. What exactly have the Cuban people to be afraid of? If they obay the laws (which the majority do) then what's the problem?

Can I ask what communist regime you have lived under? For fuck sake don't say China, or I will have to laugh.

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 02:17

HAHA, plenty of ways to kill dissidents. So how many did Fidel line up against the wall before the firing squad was outlawed? Even the leftie Amnesty International condemns Cuba for imprisoning dissidents, most notably the recent incarceration of independent librarians. No camps? Just nasty prisons! No torture? Just really long prison terms

How many did Fidel have killed? None, because those that were killed after the revolution were tried and convicted by jury. There is no evidence to suggest that Cuba uses violence in their prisons, and human rights groups have condemned the US Guantanamo Bay for violations yet for some reason it isn't a problem. Dissidents in Cuba are mostly affiliated with the exiles (terrorists) or were in the social elite before the revolution.

OMG you're using the currency market to justify your claim that Cuba was economically robust prior to the collapse of the USSR? Give me a break.

You have so far not provided any justification for your suggestion that Cuba was not economically robust before the USSR collapse. Exports fell by 60% after the collapse, and imports also fell dramatically, fuel has been in short suply since.

Oh... just Fidel's goon squads. But don't worry, as long as if you don't badmouth Uncle Fidel you're just fine!

evidence for these "goon squads" please.

Laugh away. It only highlights your ignorance.

That does not answer the question of where you are from. Do you or have you lived under a communist government? Yes or no. If you live in China then I refuse to recognise this as communist, as they are now a capitalist nation. So where are you from then? Vietnam? North Korea?

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 02:28

We got rid of the Soviets because they traded with Cuba? LOL!!! It's time to invade Canada! :lol

The U.S. has actually used Canadian official to committ terrorism against Cuba. And please, stop blatantly ignoring the facts. Canada is an exception, for an obvious reason. (Or at least for your sake, I hope it is obvious to you.)

Ahh, but before Fidel and his ilk took power Cuba was the richest nation in the Carribean! Now look at it...

That was very shameless of you. Even U.S. history books acknowledge that the majority of the population of Cuba did not benefit from the economy. And the healthcare, science, agriculture, education, etc. system under Batista aren't even comparable to the current system. Almost every single hospital in Cuba was in Havana before the Revolution, for reasons that need not be mentioned.

Anyone who thinks Cuba has universal healthcare is a fool. The healthcare systems that exist are reserved for party cadres. It is the same for every communist country (I'd know since I lived in one).

There is no way to argue with this claim. There is no point. Not even the Cuban exiles have been dumb enough to the deny Cuba's universal healthcare. And when one looks at the amount and location of hospitals, as well as the diseases that have been eradicated, it really shows how ridicolous your claim is.

Starvation? I'm confused... :blink: you mean when Fidel starved the peasants in the early 50's for refusing to submit to collectivization? As I recall, Fidel's goons burned down their refuges then had them executed as "counter-revolutionaries".

It's funny, no Human Rights organizations reported that. No real Cubans accept it. I think you know that isn't true. Not to forget Fidel has always beeen totally against brutal industrializations or collectivizations, he condemned Josef Stalin's.

No, it's just Fidel and his cronies and all the people who are too scared to disagree. Just look at all the Cubans who try desperately every year to leave the island prison! :)

You fool, I wonder why Cubans would leave to go to the richest country in the world. :lol: If you want to be serious, tons of Jamaicans have fled to Cuba.

I would doubt that if Cuba was so great 3 million people would of left, and most of those left after Fidel got there.

I know a cuban doctor that went to Guatemala in those exchange programs that some latin american countries have with cuba, and the doctor told me how they ran out of essential instruments and supplies (like golves) in the hospitals. Also the clothing provided by the gov. is crappy and very little, you only get 3 pairs of underwear a year. And bad quality too. Shoes are also in limited supply, they usually need to depend from clothing sent by there relatives living in other countries.

And for anyone who talks about Cubas great doctors and, Cuba was know for having good doctors before Fidel got there in FACT in the 50's they had more doctors per capita than any other country in latin america and more than many 1st world countries.

This is a joke. El_profe, you know very well that Cuba did not have many hospitals, and that almost all of them were in Havana, where the rich live. I don't believe your per capita claim is true, but perhaps you have some evidence. And can Batista be able to claim that he has helped more than 50 Third World countries with Cuban doctors? No.

It does an excellent job documenting crimes committed by communist/socialist governments. It also provides some comparisons to the regimes the communists replaced... totally wrecks the argument prototype "<Commie dictator> killed less than <accused pro-American> dictator". :D

Places like Russia, Romania, and Cambodia certainly had worse "Communist" dictators than the people that replaced them, but your generalization does not hold to all. Batista was much worse than Castro, Pinochet was a monster, and Mobutu was one of the worst dictators of the time. Or if you like, compare any of the three Somoza's to Daniel Ortega. Most "Communist" nations have not been given a chance, many of them have been destroyed.

The economic collapse is caused by the fact that the USSR no longer sent Cuba freebies. Blame them. :)

There is some truth to that, but not the sort of plagarization you make it out as. The Soviet Union made up 85% of Cuba's trade. After it fell, Cuba was in a crisis. And don't blame that on Cuba either, it actually tried to allow trade with the U.S.

Fidel turned Cuba into the shithole it is now. Not the US.

You are purposely ignoring the advancements in health, science, education, housing, agriculture, etc. And this is considering the huge disadvantage Cuba has had.

So they get their food rations? :lol: You still don't realize Cubans are driven by fear of the regime? You really think all that hoopla is spontaneous? How pathetic. You really have no idea what it's like to live under a communist regime do you?

You really have know idea what it's like to live in Cuba, do you?

[HAHA, plenty of ways to kill dissidents. So how many did Fidel line up against the wall before the firing squad was outlawed? Even the leftie Amnesty International condemns Cuba for imprisoning dissidents, most notably the recent incarceration of independent librarians. No camps? Just nasty prisons! No torture? Just really long prison terms :rolleyes:

To be fair, most of those dissidents are let out early. Now, I am not justifying that particular action, but one should understand the situation. If Cuba hadn't been subjected to such pressures being under constant threat of invasion, and international terrorism and economic strangulation, Fidel may not be so paranoid. And he doesn't arrest people for disagreeing with him by the way. The Mass Organizations in Cuba actually have voting power, and people can certainly disagree with Fidel in those organizations. Fidel arrests people that seem to be speaking out against the Revolution itself. Unjustifiable it is, but quite frankly, it's understandable.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 03:00

Hey, before responding to my next post, please read my last post on page 2 of this thread.

-_- The embargo is a terrorist act? Please......

One could argue that it is, but that's not what I am talking about. One such incident, was when the a U.S. intelligence agency paid a Canadian agricultural technician working for the Cuban government $5,000 to infect Cuban turkeys with a virus that would give them Newcastle disease.

They were poor before and they're poor now. Whoopee. :D

It's quite pitiful for you to blatantly go off subject on this. You were the one basing an arguement off the claim that: "before Fidel and his ilk took power Cuba was the richest nation in the Carribean!" You aren't fooling anyone.

And now they're spread out, because all the cadres sent to control the population also need healthcare. Good point. :lol:

Right, and those cadres must have secret agents in every health agency that studies the island, because they all acknowledge that Cuba has universal healthcare.

They have more serious complaints... like Fidel's totalitarian regime. The universal healthcare claim is a scam, again, go read some dissident literature.

I have read dissident literature. Whatever you think of Fidel, his crimes are nothing compared to those of the Cuban exiles.

Funny, no one reported the Ukrainian famine. No "real" Soviets accepted it. :P Read the Black Book, it even has pictures!

Firstly, there weren't Human Rights organizations at that time, and secondly, it was reported.

For the political freedom, I'm sure! :D

The shameless is extroardinary.

Nope. :D

No one has accused Fidel of using death squads, or killing tens of thousands of people. Well, except you perhaps.

Death toll: 20000 commies. Doesn't even compare with any of the Soviet puppets. Not to mention the amount of death and destruction caused by Allende's suicidal policies.. that idiot killed himself.

It certainly is much wrose than Allende. And if you really need me to point this out, Allende's policies were much more successful than Pinochet's. Just ask, I will.

Ortega was enough of an asshole to create the contra movement. Yeah, that's pretty bad. :D

The Contra movement was mainly made up of the murderes that were part of Somoza's National Guard! Ortega did nothing to provoke their attacks. Are you now justifying terrorism?

Why the fuck not? Cuba had decades to develop its economy but instead opted to suck on the Soviet tit. When that dried up it blames the US for its economic woes? Cry me a river.

You clearly have no knowledge on the conflict. Che Guevara's 1961 offer of trade to Kennedy was rejected. The United States broke off diplomatic relations with Cuba, not the other way around.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 03:50

It is obvious to anyone that the elites had most of the wealth before Castro. It is also obvious that the party cadres now hold most of the wealth. Therefore, the common Cuban was poor before and still is poor. DUH!

And it is obvious based on what? Now what "Communist" country did you live in?

And you believe them? They also say Canada has universal healthcare. LOL! :D

Right, so what exactly is a reliable source to you? Only the Black Book of Communism tells the truth? :lol: Talk about being in denial.

Truly pathetic.

Well, let's see what the Cuban exiles and the CIA have done:

- Pushed for the assurance of economic strangulation against Cuba

- Blew up a petro-chemical plant which killed 400 workers

- Shot down and launched piracy on fishing and transportation boats

- Contaminated sugar in transport

- Blew up a plane, which killed all of the 73 passengers including the championship Cuban fencing team

- Launched attacks on various Cuban embassies around the world

- Hijacked planes and ships

- Flew spy planes and war planes over Cuba, at some times dropping bombs

- Sabotaged and destroyed Cuban cane fields, oil refineries, sugar refineries, and sugar mills

- Invaded Cuba completely unsupported by the Cuban people

- Strafed a civillian hotel

- Destroyed and sabotaged railroad bridges

- Shelled a theatre

- Dropped African Swine Fever germs on Cuba, causing the government to have to slaughter at least 500,000 pigs

- Added chemicals to lubricating fluids so as to cause quick wear on diesel engines for Cubans

- Paid a person to produce ball bearings off-center, so as to sabotage Cuban vehicles

- Sabotage and create unbalanced wheel gears for Cuban vehicles

- Sabotaging the buses of the British Leyland Company as they were on there way to Cuba

- Paid a man to infect Cuban turkeys with a virus that would create Newcastle disease, leading to the deaths of 8,000 turkeys

- Sent blood sucking mosquitos and others to transmit Dengue Fever to Cuba, leading to 300,000 cases in six months

- Destroyed Cuban crops and livestock

- Attempting to bomb a baseball stadium indiscriminately, just to kill Castro inside

- Fired a bazooka at a United Nations building, just to kill Che Guevara

- Bombing the Cuban UN Mission, as well as those associated with it in Washington

- Attempting to bomb New York's Academy of Music, shortly before a celebration of the Cuban Revolution

- Bombing the Lincoln Center after the performane of the Cuban ballet

- Bombing the office of a New Jersey Cuban refugee program, which sent medical supplies to Cuba

Tell that to Walter Duranty... again, read the books.

Again, read the facts. You know very well that the Ukrainian famine was reported. It was extremely well known in fact, and used for propaganda against the monstrous Josef Stalin.

Well, there's all the exiles and dissidents, but you'd never listen to those "criminals" and "terrorists". :lol:

Nope, not even them.

Yep, forced collectivization is really successful. That's why within a year of Allende's election there were mass protests against his idiotic policies and the economy was going straight down the shitter. Say what you will about Pinochet, but the economy definitely got better. :)

HAHAHA! You are about to owned. Pinochet did a horrible job. Between 1972 and 1987, Chile's GNP per capita fell 6.4 percent. Pinochet wasn't even able to get the economy at the rate it had been in 1973, with its per capita GDP at about $3,600. In fact, in took as far as 1993, for Chile's to be at just $3,170. Pinochet did so horribly, that he had to again raise a state of siege in 1984. He instituted all of the inequality that rightwingers love. He privatized welfare and social programs, destroyed trade unions, and participated in this "free trade" concept that always manages to screw over the workers. Chile would seem like a rich country...for some. Sure, there were some rich people who benefitted enormously from Pinochet's policies. But crumbs were for the rest. In 1989 the majority of Chilean workers were earning less than those in 1973. Chileans could also brag about the accomplishment of making Chile the most inequal country in the continent. The richest 10% of Chile's population took in a massive 46.8% of the national income. Another thing rightwingers seem to love doing: Heavily polluting the enviornment! Pinochet was good at that. Pinochet made sure to take all the lands from peasents and give them back to rich businessmen, I'm sure they people benefitted from that. Did I mention that Pinochet himself was much worse than the Chicago boys? He was completely incompetent, inflation in 1975 was 341%. And Chile had quite a lot of benefits. The World Bank and IMF made huge loans to Chile, while Cuba for example in fact had exactly nil access to such loans. Chile didn't suffer the sort of economic strangulation or international terrorism that Cuba was subjected to either. One of the Chicago Boys' methods to cut inflation was to heavily reduce the money supply and government spending. That worked very well in cutting inflation. It also increased unemployment from 9.1% to 18.7% just between 1974 and 1975. Things became even worse, at one point in 1983 Chile's unemployment rate was 34.6%. Chile poverty rate in 1989 was at 41.2%. And output predictably fell 12.9%. Chile's standard of living was destroyed under Pinochet. In 1970, labors share of the national income was 52.3%. By 1989 it was 30.7%. Almost every year, Chile's minimum wages declined, there was a massive difference in the amount in the years 1980 and 1987. Chileans amount of calories in a daily diet also sharply decreased. By 1988, 40% of Chileans did not have adequate housing. Chile wasn't so great in the concentration of export by the main industry. By 1988, 2 firms controlled 90% of the paper and cellulose export industy. For chemical industries, 2 firms had 71.4%. Two industries were at 70.2% in wine and beverage. Five forest products industries owned 78.4%. Six food firms ranked at 67.3%. Six fishing product industries had 51.1%. Seven mining industries had 97.1%. Seven wood industries owned 78.6%. Eight agricultural industries had 80.6%. This is massive inequality we are talking about here! How did Chile become such a model for the opposite of equality? Well, 80% of its growth was in marketing and financial services, that doesn't help the people much....

Typical bullshit. The contras were originally a mixture of Somoza supporters and indigenous peasants opposed to Sandinista brutality. The Somoza guard were weeded out soon afterwards.

Again, you are denying history. The Sandinistas whatever you think of them, were not nearly as brutal as the Contras, or the U.S. backed regimes in El Salvador or Guatemala.

Are you justifying Sandinista terrorism against the peasants?

Answer the question: Are you justifying the Contras' terrorism? I'm not justifying the violent methods the Sandinistas used on certain natives who refused to assimilate with the rest of the Nicaraguans, or the treatment of people that spoke out against the Sandinistas, but that is nothing compared to Somoza or the Contras.

Completely beside the point. We were discussing Cuba's current economic woes.

You know we weren't entirely. You were blaming Cuba's "economic woes" on the supposed fact that "Cuba had decades to develop its economy but instead opted to suck on the Soviet tit." Your avoidance is not working, the litte you had of an arguement is dying away.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 04:46

Try the GDP per capita.

:lol: GDP per capita is all that mattes, healthcare, equality, education, science, medicines, agriculture, housing are all irrelivant! This is your proof. Ha! Try bringing in some proof for something. What a reasoning: "The GDP per capita isn't high enough, therefore Castro's cronies only benefit." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Certainly not pro-Cuba propagandists! :D

I agree, that's why I use sources such as: Health organizations(Including the World Health Organization), Human Rights monitors, International Statistics agencies, etc. No Fidel Castro speeches for my sources, not at all.

-_- Wow, big list. Is that just Fidel's ***** list or did you add some on for good measure? :lol:

Nope, if I added all of the crimes Fidel has blamed them for (Neither of us know if those particular ones are true), the list would be much longer. No, these are confirmed facts.

So it was. But Duranty's coverage was considered the most trustworthy and people believed him. Just like how Fidel's campaign against "counter-revolutionaries" was reported and ignored by his supporters.

It certainly isn't ignored by Human Rights organizations. Or me either. I know Fidel has committed certain crimes, but the reason for them, and the extent of them (Which you seem to exagerate) should be known clearly.

Ripped straight off a leftie website. You might want to check up on Allende's effect on the economy... the main reason why he was overthrown. All communist economies end up in the shitter. Pinochet was a net gain at the end. :D

The statistics are correct. Whatever you think of Allende, Pinochet was much worse.

Denying history? LOL. Your bland assertions on Sandinista benevolence and Contra brutality ring hollow, especially since the Sandinistas were voted out. Twice. And here comes the unfair election allegation. Just like clockwork. :rolleyes:

It was an unfair election. The U.S. used all sorts of methods to undermine the Sandinistas: They threatened to continue the Contra War, said they would give aid to the Sandinistas' opponenets but not the Sandinista's, gave huge funds to the Sadninistas' opposition, etc.

:lol: So funny.

The Somoza's murdered 50,000 people, including Sandino. They used terrible torture methods, much more than Ortega has ever been accused of. They kept for themselves a huge fortune, while the country starved. They allowed no freedom. The Contras' official orders were to attack "soft targets." And that is what they did. They also mutilated corpses. Come on, it is pretty discusting that your biasness leads you to say Daniel Ortega is worse or just as bad as Somoza's or the Contras.

Well, you kept changing the subject. :D Tell me again why the US is to blame for Cuba's problems?

Stop trying to get out of your obvious embarassment. You blamed Cuba for relying on the Soviets, I pointed out that the U.S. refused trade with Cuba and destroyed many of Cuba's trading partners. You can't deny it.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 05:23

Yep. Your little wishlist means nothing. :D

Hahaha, you seem to have your hopes up that I will soon get tired of your nonsense. You don't even have an arguement.

Again, Castro sympathizers.

:lol: I am dying to see your proof for this one. And if Human Rights monitors are Castro sympathizers, how exactly did you get your information from Castro's mistreatment against "counter-revolutionaries?"

WTF? :lol:

What? Are the words too large for you to read?

Confirmed by who? Lying pro-Saddam assholes? Yep, we believe them. :D

Pro-Saddam? I think you mean Pro-Fidel jack. Actually, many of these were in fact admitted by the exiles themselves.

He killed a bunch of commies. Gotta like that. :P

Pinochet killed much more than "Commies." I am glad to know you are so fond of brutality.

So predictable. Never mind the Sandinistas had their supporters the world over and the election was monitored by all sorts of organizations. Hell even Jimmy Carter was there, that prick. :lol:

Oh really? What foreign nations were giving aid to the Sandinista election? What foreign agencies were directing a war against the Contras, Honduras, or the United States? The election was even condemned as a fraud. Jimmy Carter is an ignoramos.

Actually, it is pretty disgusting that you turn a blind eye to all the shit Ortega did. It's a shame that the contras committed atrocities but the Sandinistas did worse, more frequently.

"I'm not justifying the violent methods the Sandinistas used on certain natives who refused to assimilate with the rest of the Nicaraguans, or the treatment of people that spoke out against the Sandinistas" - Lu Zhiming

The Sandinistas were never convicted of doing anything as atrocious as mutilating corpses, torturing civillians, and attacking health clinics and agricultural colonies.

85% of Cuban "trade" was with the USSR (freebies don't really count IMHO).

Again, you deny the obvious and back it with nothing.

Need I keep saying that it is silly to blame the US when Cuba had decades to diversify its economy and in doing so attract more trading partners?

Need I say what often happens to Cuba's trading partners?

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 05:42

No point arguing with a guy who thinks Cubans are "rich" with social services. :lol:

I never said anything of the sort. If I did, do you think I would believe the embargo has hurt Cuba? :rolleyes:

The Black Book. It really is an excellent source on communist brutality. :)

I assume the Black Book states its sources. What are some of those sources?

So humorless. Besides, we're posting on a site that worships a brutal murderer. :D

I have a sense of humor. Honestly, I think I have made it pretty clear: I find your posts hilarious. Although that isn't exactly on a positive note.

By whom? Sandinista groupies? I recall reading NYT coverage of the election and they were oh-so-certain that Ortega will win and all the groups monitoring the election was looking out for opposition fraud... none needed to win that landslide! :D

:lol: :lol: :lol: The New York Times? And you accuse me of having biased sources! Hahaha, a prominent Nicaraguan historian for one said the election was not free.

How often do you see a totalitarian regime convict itself of atrocities? LOL.

The World Court accused the U.S. and the Contra's of "unlawful force" in that war. They never said anything of the sort about Commandante Daniel Ortega. Oh let me guess, the World Court are Sandinista leftist Fidelista fascists, right?

el_profe

1st March 2004, 05:53

Che the war criminal, Dont even bother anymore, you will get these responses with anything you post about Cuba or the USSR on this forum:
1. Any fact you give them is western bullshit propaganda.
2. Cuba is in bad shape because of the Embargo, of course they all hate USA exploitation but want it to happen in Cuba.(any other country can trade with Cuba, during the Cold war the USA did pressure some countries not to trade with cuba, but the USSR was happily subsidizing cuba so they had no problems, but after the cold war the USA really does not give a shit who trades with Cuba).
Everyone here also never mentions the exploitation made by european companies in Cuba(with hotels and resorts), they also cant explain why cuba has so many prostitutes.
3.They try to justify any action made by Castro by sayig the people he murdered are anti-revolutionaries, even though the revolution has been over for 40 years now.
4. If you tell them anything about a Cuban that escaped "worm" they say he is a pro batista, capitalist that deserves to die and was probably from a wealthy family during the Batista days.
Of course this is false since most people have fled after Batista and where not even born when Batista was president. WHAT EVERYONE HERE CANT OR DOES NOT WANT TO COMPREHEND IS THAT AGAINST CASTRO DOES NOT MEAN FOR BATISTA.
5. Anything you tell them about Cuba's human rights abuses they immidetly point out the fact the USA has made Human rights abuses, of course no one is talking about the USA , but they still change the issue.
I gave them an example (and there is many examples of this) of a writer who as a teenager played an ACTIVE role in the revolution but after he saw what Castro became he fled the country and has written many books.
They also fail to mention how Castro turned his back on Che and never sent him the reinforcements he needed in Bolivia.

What you need to understand is that this is not so much a political issue for them its more of a emotional issues. They are supposably communist(although most of them are rich or middle class) not because they came to that conclusion by anlyzing but by pure hate of America(capitalism) or by hate and envy of someone who is more wealthy than them or hate of the "capitalist" society(most of the people here have some high school outcast issue that has also pushed them to just hate the "capitalist" society), there whole way of thinking comes from hate, you cant possibly expect smart answers when someone speaks without thinking and finally most of them are under 18. Why do you think they refer to anyone who is not a communist (as fascist racist pigs that desrve to die) its because they act and let theyre emotions instead of their mind speak and sometimes act for them.
Since they are so emotionally involved in this you hear totally absurd comments and insane post when they try to defend a Stalin, a Castro, Mao etc.
Some have actually admitted to the facts and actually speak against the USSR, but you have to understand Cuba is like theyre last stand(the communist last stand) so they will defend it even if that means writing and saying insane things or things that are just untrue or twisting facts.

Why do you think they have so much hate for a Cuban that escaped cuba? I dont see them hating on illegal immigrants that want to better there life? so why do they hate all of those rich, pro batista 3 million cubans living outside of Cuba? IF All the Cubans living outside of Cuba where rich pro batistas, then cuba most of been a great country with 3 million rich people :lol:

Also no one has answered me this question, why wont CUBA allow the wife of the CUban pitcher in the USA to move to NIcaragua where she can reunite with her husband? and why was she arested 2 times after her husband left? please answer me that, And dont answer me with ," the USA does not let americans go to cuba".

P.s. On Nicaragua, the Sandinistas foolishly and under pressure from the international community decided that they where going to have elections, since they thought they where going to win, but they lost :lol: :lol: . I know people who lost there homes thanks to the sandinistas, also many fled Nicaragua when the sandinistas took power why would they flee if the sandinistas where so great? but wait, they werent, they where and are murderers and thugs.

Evryone here talks about revolution this revolution that and most have never even been in place where guerillas are fighting(i was) and have never seen these murderers kill and cripple a country with theyre stupid war. And most here dont even have the balls to take part in a revolution, if you cant stand up to a bully in high school what makes you think you have the balls to pick up a gun and fight. :lol: :lol: Go to peru or Mexico and join the communist movements there if your so eager to start or join a revolution.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 05:54

Your responses become shorter and shorter.

:blink: No point talking to dumbasses who think the NYT is a "right-wing newspaper".

It's amusing how you 'quote' me with words I never said. The New York Times is blatantly biased, and not because it is right-wing. Just take for example its use of the word 'dictator.' Fidel Castro is called a dictator, but not Pervez Musharraf. Why? Hmm, Fidel is the greatest defier of the U.S. alive, while Musharraf is a U.S. ally. Saddam Hussein breaking U.N. resolutions is illegal according to the New York Times, but when Israel does it, the word "illegal" never comes up.

Fuck yeah! Glad you finally get it! :D

Hahaha, never has their been such a user with a lack of responses. Of course even you don't believe the above statement, but you clearly lack a decent response, therefore you have to respond with more idiotic statements. Are you amused?

Che the war criminal, Dont even bother anymore, you will get these responses with anything you post about Cuba or the USSR on this forum:
1. Any fact you give them is western bullshit propaganda.
2. Cuba is in bad shape because of the Embargo, of course they all hate USA exploitation but want it to happen in Cuba.(any other country can trade with Cuba, during the Cold war the USA did pressure some countries not to trade with cuba, but the USSR was happily subsidizing cuba so they had no problems, but after the cold war the USA really does not give a shit who trades with Cuba).
Everyone here also never mentions the exploitation made by european companies in Cuba(with hotels and resorts), they also cant explain why cuba has so many prostitutes.
3.They try to justify any action made by Castro by sayig the people he murdered are anti-revolutionaries, even though the revolution has been over for 40 years now.
4. If you tell them anything about a Cuban that escaped "worm" they say he is a pro batista, capitalist that deserves to die and was probably from a wealthy family during the Batista days.
Of course this is false since most people have fled after Batista and where not even born when Batista was president. WHAT EVERYONE HERE CANT OR DOES NOT WANT TO COMPREHEND IS THAT AGAINST CASTRO DOES NOT MEAN FOR BATISTA.
5. Anything you tell them about Cuba's human rights abuses they immidetly point out the fact the USA has made Human rights abuses, of course no one is talking about the USA , but they still change the issue.
I gave them an example (and there is many examples of this) of a writer who as a teenager played an ACTIVE role in the revolution but after he saw what Castro became he fled the country and has written many books.

Funny how you ignore my posts again el_profe.

They also fail to mention how Castro turned his back on Che and never sent him the reinforcements he needed in Bolivia.

I frankly couldn't care less about this. Fidel didn't turn his back on Che, there was no reason for Che to expect reinforcements. I have nothing against Che, but I don't blame Fidel for not getting involved in such a hopeless battle. He was already involved in enough international affairs.

Why do you think they have so much hate for a Cuban that escaped cuba? I dont see them hating on illegal immigrants that want to better there life? so why do they hate all of those rich, pro batista 3 million cubans living outside of Cuba? IF All the Cubans living outside of Cuba where rich pro batistas, then cuba most of been a great country with 3 million rich people :lol:

I don't hate all Cubans in Miami. I hate the exiles, and the ones that fled for selfish purposes.

P.s. On Nicaragua, the Sandinistas foolishly and under pressure from the international community decided that they where going to have elections, since they thought they where going to win, but they lost :lol: :lol:

Interesting, you once again fail to mention details: First, that wasn't the first election in Nicaragua. The Sandinistas won the one in 1984. And I have explained why the elections were unfair: The U.S. threatened to continue the Contra War(In both elections), promised to give aid to Nicaragua if the oppostion to the Sandinistas won, and helped fund the opposition in the election. This is not a fair election.

I know people who lost there homes thanks to the sandinistas, also many fled Nicaragua when the sandinistas took power why would they flee if the sandinistas where so great? but wait, they werent, they where and are murderers and thugs.

Since most people in Nicaragua were homeless, I do wonder if the Sandinistas reasons for taking their homes were so sinister. Certainly, your friends couldn't find a reason to flee from the much worse Somoza for some reason....

Evryone here talks about revolution this revolution that and most have never even been in place where guerillas are fighting(i was) and have never seen these murderers kill and cripple a country with theyre stupid war. And most here dont even have the balls to take part in a revolution, if you cant stand up to a bully in high school what makes you think you have the balls to pick up a gun and fight. :lol: :lol: Go to peru or Mexico and join the communist movements there if your so eager to start or join a revolution.

There is actually some truth in this part.

Invader Zim

1st March 2004, 10:09

LOL you rightwingers are getting owned... way to go lads. You clearly dont know jack shit about anything.

che_the_war_criminal

Everytime you are shown facts you condem it as Cuban prpaganda... well sunshine, why do you complain when we declare your crap as being US propaganda... the double standard stupidity of the right wing is a strange Phenomenon.

So bugger off and masturbate over a picture of Reagan and Maggie Thatcher... or maybe your parents... what ever floats the right wing boats. But just bugger off.

el_profe

1st March 2004, 16:20

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESITON IN MY PREVIOUS POST, THE QUESITON IS THE ONLY PARAGRAPH IN BOLD LETTERS,
how can you support a dictator that does not even give cubans freedom to choose where to live and freedom of speech (75 protestors where imprisoned last year and have yet to been released).

Che_the_war_criminal: Remember that these commies (the few that where alive to actually remem,ber the USSR) where the same one's that denied(some still do) all the reports on all the crimes commited by stalin and by the USSR once the USSR and everything came out theyre last chahce to prove socialism works is CUBa (since NOrth korea, China, vietnam have all allowed for exploitation of theyre people by international companies, Cuba is trying to do the same and actually does the same with resorts and hotels).
These people are somehow blinded and cant see that the Cuban gov. controls the press, so any report out of Cuba has to be questioned, because no other news source can report on that news. They are quick to call the source of any info. you give them: biased and propaganda, this is hypocritical of them since they believe anything that is said by the state controlled media in Cuba. And when they call the NY times a right wing newspaper you know they just dont want to see facts. The NYT is anything but right-wing.

The difference between the "right-wing" and the commies is that the we actually admitt when the USA does something wrong, we dont support Batista, or dont support the actions of Pinochet, but everyone here always supports any action by Castro or whoever theyre Idol was.

Look at how Cuba just restricted internet use for Cubans, everyone here somehow tried to explain how Cuba was not restricting internet use for there people, when the own Cuban gov. said it was doing that.
But they support this action because anything Fidel does must be the right thing because after all fidel is god.

LuZhiming: Until you or anyone else answer my question that has been asked like 10 times, I will not answer any of your post and like a realized with Bolshevia and other USSR and stalin lovers that denyied all the reports on the murders commited by the USSR I realize that its only a waste of time and energy to argue with someone who will never admitt that theyre Idols have done some bad thing (like murderer).

p.s. Isnt it funny they all hate the USA and (I even heard some comments on someone from australia here being mad because they signed a free-trade agreement with the USA) they all want the USA to trade with Cuba, can these morons see that any other nation except israel can trade with CUBA and alot do.
Fidel kicked any international company out of Cuba now he wants them back and he wants to trade with him. What a hypocrite.

LuZhiming

1st March 2004, 21:57

Fidel Castro

1st March 2004, 23:28

where the same one's that denied(some still do) all the reports on all the crimes commited by stalin

Please provide evidence that I denied the crimes of Stalin. I have no sympathies for Stalinists. Stalin was no communist, he was a man who used the Party and the ideals of communism to justify his rise to power and remove opposition to his totalitarian rule.

theyre last chahce to prove socialism works is CUBa (since NOrth korea, China, vietnam have all allowed for exploitation of theyre people by international companies, Cuba is trying to do the same and actually does the same with resorts and hotels).

Cuba is the only near Socialist nation in existence at the moment. I refuse to recognise China and North Korea as such, and will go so far as to say that North Korea is being dragged down by a corrupt regime. I have heard that Vietnam is going the same way as China. Cuba is the last real beacon of socialism at the moment.

These people are somehow blinded and cant see that the Cuban gov. controls the press, so any report out of Cuba has to be questioned, because no other news source can report on that news. They are quick to call the source of any info. you give them: biased and propaganda, this is hypocritical of them since they believe anything that is said by the state controlled media in Cuba. And when they call the NY times a right wing newspaper you know they just dont want to see facts. The NYT is anything but right-wing

:lol: :lol: I do not consider United Nations reports to be Cuban propaganda, nor do I believe Noam Chomsky is part of any propaganda machine. There are many news reports, books and Television Documentaries that are sympathetic to Cuba that are obviously independant of the Cuban government.

The difference between the "right-wing" and the commies is that the we actually admitt when the USA does something wrong, we dont support Batista, or dont support the actions of Pinochet, but everyone here always supports any action by Castro or whoever theyre Idol was.

The fact is that the right-wing US supported Pinochet, so it was rather hypocritical of them to criticise him. It was these same right wing cappies that supported Batista, Hussein and Pol Pot. Oh yes, they realised what these men were up to, but it wasn't in their interests to stop them.

Leftists do criticise other Leftist leaders. I have heard criticisms of Stalin, Lenin, Mao and even Castro on this forum from fellow leftists. I think we all agree that there is no such thing as a living Saint.

Look at how Cuba just restricted internet use for Cubans, everyone here somehow tried to explain how Cuba was not restricting internet use for there people, when the own Cuban gov. said it was doing that.
But they support this action because anything Fidel does must be the right thing because after all fidel is god.

The fact is that communications and technology in Cuba are improving, but nowhere near the standards of the West. Whilst internet use is restricted, it is not unavailable, but it is very slow and unreliable.

Isnt it funny they all hate the USA and (I even heard some comments on someone from australia here being mad because they signed a free-trade agreement with the USA) they all want the USA to trade with Cuba, can these morons see that any other nation except israel can trade with CUBA and alot do.

I know fine well that other nations do and are trading with Cuba. Why is Isreal unable to do so (perhaps because they are America's *****?). However, nations that do not trade with the US tend to find themselves alot worse off, and the US policy of refusing to trade with Cuba also acts to dissuade other nations from defying the policy. Just look how jittery the EU is becomming on the issue of trade with Cuba.

Osman Ghazi

2nd March 2004, 00:33

then cuba most of been a great country with 3 million rich people

Are you a complete twat?
How could 3 million people possibly flee a country of only 11 million?
The 3 mill are the kids and grandkids of the exiles you moron. maybe a hundred thou fled at most.

el_profe

2nd March 2004, 00:40

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 2 2004, 01:33 AM

then cuba most of been a great country with 3 million rich people

Are you a complete twat?
How could 3 million people possibly flee a country of only 11 million?
The 3 mill are the kids and grandkids of the exiles you moron. maybe a hundred thou fled at most.
:lol: :lol: :lol: exactly, that is how i reacted when I saw responses on this site that said that only the burgois and rich pro-batista escaped Cuba. Of course if Batista would of had so many supporters he wouldnt of lost.

EVEYONR HERE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT AGAINST CASTRO DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOURE FOR BATISTA>

STI

2nd March 2004, 00:49

Originally posted by el_profe+Mar 2 2004, 01:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Mar 2 2004, 01:40 AM)
Osman [email protected] 2 2004, 01:33 AM

then cuba most of been a great country with 3 million rich people

Are you a complete twat?
How could 3 million people possibly flee a country of only 11 million?
The 3 mill are the kids and grandkids of the exiles you moron. maybe a hundred thou fled at most.
:lol: :lol: :lol: exactly, that is how i reacted when I saw responses on this site that said that only the burgois and rich pro-batista escaped Cuba. Of course if Batista would of had so many supporters he wouldnt of lost.

EVEYONR HERE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT AGAINST CASTRO DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOURE FOR BATISTA> [/b]
"Either you're for us, or against us"
- King Bush, 2001

el_profe

3rd March 2004, 02:23

Does Anyone here know that in the 1950's Cuba was ranked 22 out of 122 in The World Economic Atlas. :lol: :lol: This wasnot thanks to Batista of course.

And by the way, many of the Cubans that supported Castro thought that after Batista was ran out of office they would returned to the democracy they had before Batista, of course Castro changed plans.

Also between 1940-1958 Cuba was in the top 5 in Latin America in economic growth with Argentina, Puerto Rico, Uruguay and Chile. :lol: :lol:
Cubans in 1953 had the same per-capita income of Italy and actually was better off than Italy. :lol: :lol:

So Cuba was better off than most of Latin America before batista and before Castro. :lol: :lol:
And i Already had stated that in 1950 Cuba already had one of the highest education levels in Latin america with 80% of Cubans being able to read and write., it had more doctor per capita than any country in Latin America and was well known for its good doctors. :lol: :lol:

Most Cubans wanted democracy back when Batista left but look what Castro did. :lol: :lol:

Cobra

3rd March 2004, 12:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 03:23 AM
So Cuba was better off than most of Latin America before batista and before Castro. :lol: :lol:
And i Already had stated that in 1950 Cuba already had one of the highest education levels in Latin america with 80% of Cubans being able to read and write., it had more doctor per capita than any country in Latin America and was well known for its good doctors. :lol: :lol:

Oh, so thats it! So that evil commie dictater Castro is the reason why Cuba has such low education levels and so few doctors today.

...right... wow you really know a lot about Cuba. Your must be the smartest person here.

Edit: In case anyone misunderstood me, I was being sarcastic. However, now that I look at el_profe's comment, I think he was being sarcastic as well. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Osman Ghazi

3rd March 2004, 13:01

Don't you realize that the 'per capita' income doesn't mean shit?
Per capita is just the GNP divided by the number of people in the workforce.
Therefore, it doesn't really reflect the actual income of most of the population. When there is a huge income gap between rich and poor, the per capita income becomes a joke. You cannot deny that the average person has more now than they did before. Also, even if people were well-educated then, they are better educated now and even if health services were good then, (they were for the rich) they are better and more people have access to them now.

Most Cubans wanted democracy back when Batista left but look what Castro did.

You took a survey did you?
What do you call the People's Power Assemblies then?

sparky44

3rd March 2004, 17:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 02:32 AM
Unlike these people, Fidel does not use torture, firing squads or labour camps.
That's where you're wrong.......last year the Cubans that hijacked the ferry were all put before a firing squad. Do you not watch international news or do you just hear what you want to hear.

LuZhiming

3rd March 2004, 20:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 03:23 AM
Most Cubans wanted democracy back when Batista left but look what Castro did. :lol: :lol:

Does Anyone here know that in the 1950's Cuba was ranked 22 out of 122 in The World Economic Atlas. :lol: :lol: This wasnot thanks to Batista of course.

Did you know most Cubans did not benefit from that economy? This is according to U.S. sources, such as this one: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569...69844/Cuba.html (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569844/Cuba.html)

All thanks to Batista! :lol: :lol:

And by the way, many of the Cubans that supported Castro thought that after Batista was ran out of office they would returned to the democracy they had before Batista, of course Castro changed plans.

And perhaps Castro would have brought Democracy if he didn't have to worry about being overthrown daily. Cuba was never any sort of a Democracy by the way.

Also between 1940-1958 Cuba was in the top 5 in Latin America in economic growth with Argentina, Puerto Rico, Uruguay and Chile. :lol: :lol:
Cubans in 1953 had the same per-capita income of Italy and actually was better off than Italy. :lol: :lol:

See above on the supposed greatness of Cuba's economy. And again, there was no economic strangulation during Batista's reign. And it's funny you bring up Italy. You say that as if Italy was actually impressive. And as you should know, the "Communists" in Italy lost after the U.S. perverted elections in 1948, and a group of Capitalist clowns won. That explains wy Italy wasn't much to brag about. :lol:

So Cuba was better off than most of Latin America before batista and before Castro. :lol: :lol:

This claim is based on nothing but ecnomic stats. The true narrowminded arguement of a Capitalist.

And i Already had stated that in 1950 Cuba already had one of the highest education levels in Latin america with 80% of Cubans being able to read and write., it had more doctor per capita than any country in Latin America and was well known for its good doctors. :lol: :lol:

What are your sources for this claim? And I have already of course stated that most of Cuba's hospitals and clinics were in Havana, weren't free, and only the rich could access them as you should know.

Most Cubans wanted democracy back when Batista left but look what Castro did. :lol: :lol:

Most Cubans wanted to stay independent of the Cold War and not have their leaders overthrown, but look what the U.S. did. :lol:

Fidel Castro

3rd March 2004, 22:17

That's where you're wrong.......last year the Cubans that hijacked the ferry were all put before a firing squad. Do you not watch international news or do you just hear what you want to hear.

I'm afraid you will find that in the past few months death by firing squad has been abolished by the Cuban government, and I was correct also in my statement about labour camps and torture.

So before you preach to me about keeping up with current affairs, research a little about current Cuban affairs thanks very much!

el_profe

4th March 2004, 00:11

First of to Cobra:
YOu moron, if you dotn understand post dont respond to them, Everyone here talks like if cuba was a 1str world country, I was trying to say that CUba was better off than they are now. Batista was a dictator but at least Cubans didnt have a problem leaving Cuba, and also before Batista they where better off.

Luzhiming:
OF course it wasnt free does that mean that most could not afford it, remember not every doctor charges the same.
Why did he worry? He alrady was amarxist since his college days? he always wanted a communist Cuba, he illegally took any american bussiness and did not even pay them, then the USa actually send someone to start good relations with Cuba, but Castro did not want relations and the USZA cut any type of military and money aid to Batista months before Castro took over.

Stats dont lie, look at economic stats and you will see the one with the best economies are better off, that is common sense. Are you saying stats dont matter? :lol: :lol:

My sources is 2 books that have this info. NOt only from any author 3 well known authors from latin america who made a lot of research when they made thsi book, One of the authors is a Cuban who took an active role in the revolution of course later he found out that Castro was even worse than batista. Go find out if the facts are true.

Osman Ghazi:
income per capita does not matter? there is huge income gaps in all 3rd world countries and look how bad they are. Mexico has one of the richest man on the planet with 13.9 billion yet there income per capita still sucks.
Look at the best countries(economiclly) they all have high income per capita.

The average person has more now, i dont think so.
Also Cuba had one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world in 1958.
Luzhiming and Osman, you show how you try to aviod the facts when you say stats and income per-capita does not matter. So it does not matter that in 1953or 5 cuba had the 22th best economy?

Osman Ghazi

4th March 2004, 00:19

So it does not matter that in 1953or 5 cuba had the 22th best economy?

What exactly do you mean by '22nd best'?
22nd highest GDP per capita?
22nd highest GDP total?
22nd best doesn't mean shit.

What I meant by my previos post is that the GDP per capita does not necesarilly tell one how the average person is doing due to the fact that they use mean average instead of mode.

Commie Girl

4th March 2004, 02:18

:D Maybe read Che Guevara by Jon Anderson ....explains it all, and is a highly rcommended booK!!

LuZhiming

4th March 2004, 03:00

OF course it wasnt free does that mean that most could not afford it, remember not every doctor charges the same.

And as you continue to ignore, the majority of the population was in poverty. It has been pointed out by health organizations over and over that Cuba was plagued with diseases like polio, malaria, neonatal tetanus, diphtheria, measles, rubella, mumps, whooping cough and dengue before the Revolution. Since the Revolution, those diseases affect Cubans no longer. Cuban medicines were not used all over the Thirld World as they are now, and Cuban doctors and teachers were not helping various Third World countries either as they have been since the Revolution. Cuban doctors before the Revolution were not complimented by health organizations like they have been since the Revolution. And you continue to ignore how almost every hospital was in rich Havana. Keep fooling yourself, keep ignoring the facts.

Why did he worry? He alrady was amarxist since his college days? he always wanted a communist Cuba, he illegally took any american bussiness and did not even pay them,

He did offer to pay the U.S. back with trade, and I could care less if he paid those corrupt businessmen anything. You deny it, but virtually everyone else (Even many Pro-U.S. history books) acknowledge the utter corruption and theft of these companies. And also you ignore how these companies seized their properties in Cuba.

then the USa actually send someone to start good relations with Cuba, but Castro did not want relations and the USZA cut any type of military and money aid to Batista months before Castro took over.

You are lying yet again. Cuban exiles trained by the U.S. began launching raids against Cuba in Later October 1959.

Stats dont lie, look at economic stats and you will see the one with the best economies are better off, that is common sense. Are you saying stats dont matter? :lol: :lol:

El_profe, why do you always twist my words and only pay attention to details that suit you? Even U.S. sources acknowledge that most Cubans did not benefit from the economy under Batista and previous leaders. In a society of great inequality, the economy does not mean the people are living well. You should know that. And still, you completely disregard the fact that Fidel's Cuba has suffered economic strangulation.

My sources is 2 books that have this info. NOt only from any author 3 well known authors from latin america who made a lot of research when they made thsi book, One of the authors is a Cuban who took an active role in the revolution of course later he found out that Castro was even worse than batista. Go find out if the facts are true.

Why is it that you don't mention the names of the authors or the titles of the books?

The average person has more now, i dont think so.
Also Cuba had one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world in 1958.

What was that rate?

Luzhiming and Osman, you show how you try to aviod the facts when you say stats and income per-capita does not matter. So it does not matter that in 1953or 5 cuba had the 22th best economy?

No it doesn't matter, most Cubans did not benefit from that economy.