Zimbabwe's torture training camps

[Y2A]

I just saw the report on the camps on the BBC, it was quite interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3493958.stm


Zimbabwe's torture training camps


By Hilary Andersson
BBC Africa correspondent


President Robert Mugabe's government has set up secret camps across the country in which thousands of youths are taught how to torture and kill, the BBC has learned.

The Zimbabwean government says the camps are job training centres, but those who have escaped say they are part of a brutal plan to keep Mugabe in power.

Former recruits to the camps have spoken to the BBC's Panorama programme about a horrific training programme that breaks young teenagers down before encouraging them to commit atrocities.

Members of the youth militia are warned never to tell of their experiences inside the camps, and many refuse to be identified when talking about their experiences.

However one girl, Debbie, claims she was kidnapped and forced into a camp - where she was raped on her very first night.

In accounts gathered by BBC Panorama from dozens of youths, it appears that for many of them the training in the camps begins with rape.

Debbie said she was raped three times on the first night, but claimed that the abuse didn't stop then.

She told the programme: "I was raped again at night and they said no-one can complain because its part of training."

She claims she used to share a blanket with an 11-year-old girl. The little girl was also raped night after night.

'Disturbed'

President Mugabe has visited the camps. Ministry insiders have told Panorama that his government knows what goes on inside them.


Daniel was taught to torture people
Food is often scarce. Youths are beaten until they succumb to orders. They are taught that their mission is to keep President Mugabe in power.

Panorama has also learned that some of the recruits are taught to torture his opponents.

Daniel was plied with alcohol and drugs, and learned how to electrocute his victims.

He said: "I would just touch, krr, krr - tell us information."

Asked if he thought it was OK to torture people, he added that it was "nice", because "your mind is disturbed".

'Eliminated'

During covert filming inside Zimbabwe, Panorama also spoke to a camp commander who told the programme that youths in his camp had been sent to kill opponents of President Mugabe.

He said: "In the area I am covering I heard of two. My superiors instructed that the people must be eliminated."

What is more frightening is that President Mugabe now wants every Zimbabwean youth to undergo training. We have been told they will be used to intimidate political opponents in next year's elections.

The commander added: "These guys are going to be used by the ruling party to keep the opposition out of power."

We put these allegations to Zimbabwe's government, but so far it has refused to respond.

[Y2A]

So how do you commies feel about Mugabe?

[Loknar]

Mugabe is an asshole. But he’s smart. He knows his land grabbing (I support redistributing the farm land actually, but he‘s done it is such a stupid way) actions are destroying his economy and placing his country on the verge of famine. He knows that he must stabilize his regime in order t o stay in power. What better way is there to accomplish this? Just train fanatics that are loyal to you and you will remain in power.



I wonder why south Africa doesn’t get off it's ass/ They could crush Zimbabwe easily.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 06:53 PM
Just train fanatics that are loyal to you and you will remain in power.
Incorrect, these are not "fanatics" that are loyal to him. Many are youth that are kiddnaped and forced into these camps.

[Fidel Castro]

So General Bob is up to his usual tricks.


I wonder why south Africa doesn’t get off it's ass/ They could crush Zimbabwe easily.

Yea, they thought that about Angola too, but got a nasty surprise thanks to an old friend in Havana :lol:


Here again we see, that there are real tyrants encouraging torture, rape, kiddnap and terrorising political opposition. Yet the West do nothing. Perhaps the West just has nothing to gain from Zimbabwe.

[Intifada]

mugabe is a fucking asshole but the west wont do anything. no oil fields in zimbabwe as far as i know.

[Edward Norton]

I agree with Loknar here.

As a communist and believer in making right the wrongs done by white settlers to blacks in Africa and the USA etc, I support the idea of having the white landowners having their land taken away from them (with force if they refuse) and given to those who work on the land with proper and democratic management.

However Mugabe is NOT the person best suited to this urgent task, as seen by the crisis of the last 4 years or so in Zimbabwe.

Mugabe, first of all is NOT socialist but an autocratic nationalist with a very large appetite for power. His 'land reform project' as Loknar pointed out is a ploy to muster support for his regime which is now on it's death bed.

Racism, intimidation and dividing black against other races is NOT socialism and Mugabe does just that.

Also Mugabe's 'land reform project' have seen many good tracts of land going to government members, ZANU-PF members and Mugabe's wife Grace!!!

Thus the ordinary people of Zimbabwe have not benefited at all.

Some immature/sensationalist 'left-wingers' support Mugabe to the hilt, as they do with supporting Milosevic, Saddam Huessien and any other fascistic/non-socialist dictator, simply because the US State Department has criticised those regimes.

I DO NOT think like that, because supporting anyone who hates the US government would mean backing Adolf Hitler and Fascist Japan, because they were in conflict with the USA.

You'll find most of these 'left-wingers' are Stalinists/Maoists and a few Trotskyists, but since these fossils are now a dying species I suppose there is hope for us yet!

However, since I know quite a lot on Zimbabwe's history, I find it all to predictable that right-wingers (I am not having a go at you Y2A, but the right-wing press in Britain and the Conservative Party/UK) have ONLY started to find Zimbabwe an issue when the victims of Mugabe's regime are WHITE!!!

Only around half a dozen (no more than 10!) white farmers have died in this land crisis, yet MANY more blacks have dies, yet in the UK press you would think ALL whites are being killed off in Zimbabwe.

Plua lets not forget the UK Conservative Party, which won't shut up over Mugabe, was actually supportive of the illegal racist white regime of Ian Smith from 1964-1980 and that the Conservatives called any opponent of Smith's dictatorship and aparthied South Africa a communist and possible 'terrorist'. So for me, the Tories 'concern' for Zimbabwe is nothing more than disguised racism and hatred of the idea of blacks running there own affairs.

The BIGGEST massacre and human rights abuse in Zimbabwe's history occured in 1984 when 20,000 people of a tribe (forget the name) were killed by Mugabe's regime. No one raised any concern back then, yet now 6 or so whites die and the right-wing press go into a state or moral rage. I am not condoning anti-white attacks (I am white myself) but it's sick to make a fuss about that and stay silent on 20,000 dead back in 1884.

Plus no one really cared/cares about the million dead in Rwanda in 1994 or the 4 MILLION dead in the Congo/Ziare since 1997.

I suppose for most in the western 'civilised' world black life is cheap and can be ignored without any more thought to it.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:20 PM
Here again we see, that there are real tyrants encouraging torture, rape, kiddnap and terrorising political opposition. Yet the West do nothing. Perhaps the West just has nothing to gain from Zimbabwe.
If the "West" did anything you'd just call it imperialism as usual.

What's your point?

[Intifada]

If the "West" did anything you'd just call it imperialism as usual.

no, not really.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 09:06 PM

If the "West" did anything you'd just call it imperialism as usual.

no, not really.
Yes, yes really. It's the truth. Your telling me that U.S troops stationed in Zimbawbe wouldn't be seen as "imperialist" to the majority of the people on these boards? Please, be honest, you'd call it "imperialism" in a heartbeat.

[Intifada]

i might if they do it later on when the mugabe regime is coming to an end, because we will all wonder why the west suddenly wants to "liberate" zimbabwe.

[Y2A]

See, exactly. Someone will just once again brainwash you into believing that the U.S is the ultimate imperialist evil and you will stand by that brave marxist Mugabe and call the U.S imperialist bastards and protest against there "occupation" in Zimbawbe. It's just that simple and you have just proven my point. Everything the U.S does is pure evil. It doesn't matter if it's Kosavo or Liberia etc.... it just doesn't matter because the U.S is the embodiment of evil.

[Intifada]

Someone will just once again brainwash you into believing that the U.S is the ultimate imperialist evil and you will stand by that brave marxist Mugabe and call the U.S imperialist bastards and protest against there "occupation" in Zimbawbe.

nobody will brainwash me. i make my own mind up. i wouldnt stand by mugabe, i would stand by the zimbabwean people who would be occupied by a foreign invader.

if the US was to get rid of mugabe soon, i would support that move. i wouldnt support any occupation of the people of zimbabwe afterwards.


Everything the U.S does is pure evil.

i wouldnt say evil, but they are always hypocritical.

[BuyOurEverything]

if the US was to get rid of mugabe soon, i would support that move. i wouldnt support any occupation of the people of zimbabwe afterwards.


No you wouldn't, that's a blatant lie. Did you support the war in Iraq? No, so why would yo support a war in Zimbabwe? Not to mention the fact that if the US just went in, killed Mugabe, and left, someone else would just seize power and nothing would improve.

[Fidel Castro]

Did you support the war in Iraq? No, so why would yo support a war in Zimbabwe?

Oh come on people, don't be so stupid. Iraq and Zimbabwe are totally different, and to try to argue that anyone who opposed the war in Iraq would automatically oppose a war against Zimbabwe is really silly.

My feeling over the war in Iraq is that only one good thing has so far come out of it, and that is the capture of Saddam Hussein, I think we can all agree there. I feel that we were taken to war under a false pretence and that thousands of military and civilian people have had to die for a reason that has never been divulged to us, the people.

When the Weapons of Mass Deception were not found, we started hearing other justifications for the war, all of a Sudden Bush was concerned over the plight of the Iraqi people, my ass!

As for Zimbabwe, I would support a military operation carried out by countries to overthrow the Mugabe regime, especially due to the evidence of torture. However if this is to happen then it must happen sooner rather than later, and it must be done with as much international support as possible in connection with opposition parties within Zimbabwe itself.

[BuyOurEverything]

Oh come on people, don't be so stupid. Iraq and Zimbabwe are totally different, and to try to argue that anyone who opposed the war in Iraq would automatically oppose a war against Zimbabwe is really silly.

My feeling over the war in Iraq is that only one good thing has so far come out of it, and that is the capture of Saddam Hussein, I think we can all agree there. I feel that we were taken to war under a false pretence and that thousands of military and civilian people have had to die for a reason that has never been divulged to us, the people.

When the Weapons of Mass Deception were not found, we started hearing other justifications for the war, all of a Sudden Bush was concerned over the plight of the Iraqi people, my ass!

As for Zimbabwe, I would support a military operation carried out by countries to overthrow the Mugabe regime, especially due to the evidence of torture. However if this is to happen then it must happen sooner rather than later, and it must be done with as much international support as possible in connection with opposition parties within Zimbabwe itself.


I agree that they're different situations but I think it's rather stupid to think that the ihatebush type Iraq war protesters would support a war on Zimbabwe. Really, what differences are you refering to? There was evidence that Saddam Hussein was torturing people too.

Obviously, people were mislead about WMDs in Iraq, but that's completely irrelevant. Were you honestly shocked that the US government lied about its motivations for war? Did the post-war realization that Bush lied really change that many people's minds? Did it changed yours?

[Intifada]

Did you support the war in Iraq? No, so why would yo support a war in Zimbabwe?

dont be stupid man. iraq and zimbabwe are totally different. the U$A helped saddam and the baath party gain power in the 60s. they didnt help mugabe did they? the west gave weapons and funding to saddam, they didnt give any to mugabe did they? the west has killed many innocent people in iraq over the years, they havent so far in zimbabwe have they?

the reason i didnt support the war in iraq was because it was blatant imperialism. it was never about WMDs or regime change. it was never about liberation. it was about oil.

if the west was to decide to remove mugabe with the backing of the international community i would support that move, wouldnt you?

[Fidel Castro]

Ihatebush has hit the nail on the head. The fact is that the people were lied to over Iraq, and yet there are some that still ask us to support Bush.

It is the same with this "War on Terror" nonsense. How on earth can we fight a war on something we cannot see, without army divisions or any clear structure.

The War on Terror is being used as an excuse for US Imperialism. If you oppose US policy, then you are branded as a terrorist, fanatic or un-patriotic. The "War against Terror" has been used as an excuse to imprison people without trial or legal representation.

I would have supported war against Iraq if it were not for the lies and hypocracy surrounding the issue.

At this time, with the current situation, I would support the removal of Mugabe from power in Zimbabwe, preferably led by the UN and opposition forces in Zimbabwe.

[Slobo Is God]

Mugabe is a savage racist animal.

[Urban Rubble]

Mugabe is a savage racist animal.

In another few years he might reach the savage/racist potential that the man on your avatar did ! Here's hoping !

[Saint-Just]

I agree with Loknar too. I think Mugabe is not as great a demon as the west makes him out to be. He is essentially a Thabo Mbeki character. much of African supports Mugabe. I would criticise him on the basis of his actions against the Matebele and his nationalism and sexual immoral view. I dislike his opinion on AIDS that a lot of African leaders share, they encourage men having sex with who they like and with as many people as they like with no concern.