A question about Religion

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

K, before i state my question, I'll just make it known that i consider myself verry religious! haha. Ok, here goes nothing.

Well, I've read somewhere before that religion is weird, because it helps ppl's psychological outlook. I.e. - if someone dies, psychologically, they wanna see the person so bad that their imagination 'imagines' seeing them in a dream reassuring everything is okay...anyone believe this?

Now, being totally religious (i'll never become atheist, haha), I just wanna ask...how can ppl not believe if nobody knows? I mean, sure the choice is ours, but if I believe and you dont, should either be stigmatized? Live-and-let-live mentality?

(just a question that came up while talking wit friends)

[RedAnarchist]

I concur completely.

Lets live and let live. If an elderly person is made happy by religion after the death of their life-long partner, or a small child is made happy by it after the death of one of his or her parents, then surely religion can be useful?

Stigma is a terrible thing. We need to accept that not everyone wants a godless life.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

----------

[Wenty]

Many people on this forum will respond to what you have said by saying that many, many people have died in the name of some form of religion and that it does more harm than good.

I'm sure they will also say that religion is just a man made invention there to help us live our lives.

I believe these opinions to have a valid base but do not myself agree with them.

If you are going to belive in a faith do it for yourself and for your own reasons. Religion is too big an issue for you be convinced either way by someone else. Thats my opinion anyway.

[monkeydust]

How can you not belief if no-one knows? Simply because some of us need real prove to be complled to believe something. Nobody knows whether or not there's aliens on Jupiter, that doesn't necessarily we will accept this assertion without real proof.

Belief in a transcedent force is certainly rationally plausible. Belief in an ultimate cause of the universe could even be considered rationally unavoidable - although i am not 100% certain of this.

However - all of the attributes commonly assosciated with transcendence - especially those attributed by religious doctrine suffer from the fatal flaw that they attempt to make comprehensible, analagous references to a being which admittedly wholly beyond the scope of their ability to reason. This results in a whole lexicon of completely meaningless phrases concerning the nature of metaphysical reality.

[redstar2000]

Now, being totally religious (I'll never become atheist, haha), I just wanna ask...how can people not believe if nobody knows? I mean, sure the choice is ours, but if I believe and you don't, should either be stigmatized? Live-and-let-live mentality?

That's really two questions.

1. People do not believe because there is no evidence to support belief.

2. The reason that we cannot and should not "live-and-let-live" with regard to religious belief is that religion itself rules out that option.

People who take their religion seriously are commanded by "God Himself" to convert all non-believers and "wrong-believers" to "the true faith"...or kill them!

For obvious reasons, this message is "soft-pedaled" these days -- at least outside of the Middle East and India.

But make no mistake: superstitious belief is not like an innocent preference for chocolate ice cream or being a fan of the Boston Red Sox.

It is a deadly enemy of rational human thought and any existence even remotely free of oppression and exploitation.

So it's a question of them or us. Either we get rid of religion or, sooner or later, religion will get rid of us...and it's welcome to a new dark age.

Bad ending.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[LSD]

Relgion as a societal foundation is dangerous because it substitutes logic for blind obedience. Any society based on such a conception is doomed to slow or even backwards progression.

As far as individuals choosing to believe in the supernatural as a more philisophical concept, I have no problem. If someone has come to a personal understanding of the universe or the meaning of life etc... good for them. I have no problem with faith. I have a major problem with organized relgion. Organized religion isn't about faith, it's about compiled doctrinal dogma. Books and lists and "commandments" of how you and everyone else must live. Most people following an organized religion do so because they were taught it as a child and so were indoctrinated early, the rest were looking for easy answers and didn'twant to spend the time or the effort to discover them themselves. They didn't come to some profound revelation, they just never questioned what they were taught. And having that many people unwilling to question bigottry, prejudice, and violence is a very dangerous situation for the world.

Very few have been killed by religion, billions have been killed by religious organizations.


So I say "live-and-let-live", but smash the churches.

[Wenty]

usual dogmatic rhetoric then, as expected.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 07:26 PM
usual dogmatic rhetoric then, as expected.
Not at all.

Arguments were presented and developed.

If you disagree, then refute them.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Comrade BNS]

Redstar, may I ask why you are so adversed to people believing in something so whole-heartedly that isn't marxist?


So it's a question of them or us. Either we get rid of religion or, sooner or later, religion will get rid of us...and it's welcome to a new dark age.


i am assuming you do not accept the Abrahamic faiths because of their "lack of evidence" and most probably their scare mongering tactics... take a look at yourself, Mr. Redstar... The classic "Us Vs. Them" mentality is exactly what leads to misunderstanding and conflict.


People who take their religion seriously are commanded by "God Himself" to convert all non-believers and "wrong-believers" to "the true faith"...or kill them!

and as you admitted in another thread to which i replied, you would profess to do the same thing in the name of Marxism! Vouschafe Thee Hippocratus!
and to clarify, the sections of the bible and Qu'ran (the only 2 abrahamic faiths which can be seen to in some cases burden the believer with preaching of their faith) which call for believers to "spread the word" are quite open to interpretation, and have been interpreted in many ways, hence differing denominations within both faiths.

Consider this, that your truth is not the only truth! No one is asking you to preach the good lord's gospel, but accept that some people may "CHOOSE!!!!!" to follow it.

your Marxian idea of Religion being "the opiate of the masses" has led to extreme intolerance. Compare yourself to a Christian preacher, but merely exchange the names symbols and places for those of Marxian mythology and ideology, and we have a die in the woods baptist...ahem Marxist preacher. Do you not find it Ironic that you continually gloat, and preach over not preaching?

and as it seems quite fitting here, "Remove thy log from thine own eye, before thou dost seek to remove it from his neighbours."

Comrade BNS

[Rasta Sapian]

Religion a is connection with god via church, priests, holy books, etc.
yet an old way to rejoice and find faith

Spirituality is a connection with god via prayer, rejoice, and having blind faith
a new way to worship, and feel connected to the devine

Faith in God is the one thing all religions have in common! So live and let live! :o

peace yall

[redstar2000]

I am assuming you do not accept the Abrahamic faiths because of their "lack of evidence" and most probably their scare mongering tactics... take a look at yourself, Mr. Redstar... The classic "Us vs. Them" mentality is exactly what leads to misunderstanding and conflict.

Yes, I accept the challenge...and the war between rational humanity and barbaric superstition.

Why should I be "tolerant" of those who would kill me if they thought they could get away with it?


Consider this, that your truth is not the only truth! No one is asking you to preach the good lord's gospel, but accept that some people may "CHOOSE!!!!!" to follow it.

Yes, and Nazis "CHOOSE!!!!!" to follow Nazism. So fucking what? Am I supposed to "respect" that choice...right up to the point where I hear the stormtrooper boots on the stairs leading to my apartment???

Whether it's Islamic fundamentalism in Iran, Christian fundamentalism in America, Hindu fundamentalism in northern India, or Jewish fundamentalism in occupied Palestine: your collective track record is clear and unmistakable!

You're all a pack of reactionary turds, period! You all talk "peace & love" until you get the chance to really "cut loose".

Compared to you fuckers, Stalin was a saint!

There will be no new "dark age of faith" if I have anything to say about it!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Hate Is Art]

Man invented Religion, Religion didn't invent Man.

We may have needed religion to explain stuff when humanity was young, that is why there were so many gods in ancient egypt and greece, anything they didn't understand they just created a God for.

Religion is a relic of a time long gone, we don't need Religion to explain things anymore, all we have to do is turn non-living matter in living matter and we can completly disprove Religion.

[Wenty]

Ah! How many times do i have to read the same posts over and over again! I get the point stop repeating yourself over and over and over and over again! I'm going insane!

[The Children of the Revolution]

Yes, and Nazis "CHOOSE!!!!!" to follow Nazism. So fucking what? Am I supposed to "respect" that choice...right up to the point where I hear the stormtrooper boots on the stairs leading to my apartment???


Do you, then, propose to outlaw ANY opinion that deviates from your set "norm"? To censor all opposition?



Whether it's Islamic fundamentalism in Iran, Christian fundamentalism in America, Hindu fundamentalism in northern India, or Jewish fundamentalism in occupied Palestine: your collective track record is clear and unmistakable!


Yes, the key word here being "fundamentalist". Extreme radicals that interpret the Holy Word (of whatever faith) in ridiculous ways - and give the rest of us a bad name. Most Christians ARE "Peace and Love" types. In stark contrast to yourself, it must be said.



There will be no new "dark age of faith" if I have anything to say about it!


Luckily, you don't.

[cubist]

let people believe if it comforts them on theyre death bed yes thats fine, but don't let religion have any political input on the running of the nation. its wrong and an unfair protection of government intrests

[redstar2000]

Do you, then, propose to outlaw ANY opinion that deviates from your set "norm"? To censor all opposition?

What do you mean by "opinion"? What do you mean by "opposition"?

For that matter, what do you mean by "outlaw"? (In communist society, there's no state apparatus and hence no "laws" in the contemporary meaning of the word.)

I've already made a series of proposals on how to deal with religion "after the revolution". Do you want me to repeat them?

Organized reactionary groups -- Nazis, fascists, racists -- should, in my opinion, be vigorously suppressed. It would probably be a good thing if, periodically, we took a group of them out and shot them (while they were wearing their Nazi uniforms, of course).

Should we persecute someone for their privately held opinions? Probably not. It's just not practical.

But those who attempt to inject reactionary views into public life...must realize that we communists are not going to "roll over" like harmless puppies.

We are going to bite!


Yes, the key word here being "fundamentalist". Extreme radicals that interpret the Holy Word (of whatever faith) in ridiculous ways - and give the rest of us a bad name. Most Christians ARE "Peace and Love" types. In stark contrast to yourself, it must be said.

I never claimed to be for "peace and love".

But even recent history gives the lie to your claims. You're all for "peace and love" because you don't have the naked power to do otherwise. If America was a "Christian Republic" along the same lines as Iran, you fuckers would be burning witches in front of the Washington Monument.

When you do get the chance to really "cut loose", how do you Christians behave?

Prohibition was one example. But for the last quarter century, you Christians have given us "the war on drugs"...as ugly an example of "moral righteousness" as can be found anywhere in history.

I'm amazed you bastards even have the unmitigated gall to speak the word "tolerance"! How many people are in your hell-hole prisons for the "sin" of using a drug that you think is "immoral"?! Millions???

"Peace & Love" my ass!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[SittingBull47]

Its a very tricky subject. Personally i'm an independent/catholic/zen buddhist believer (no joke, I found i could mix-and-match, so to speak), but i think that society puts to much emphasis on religion as a whole. Why not just let people believe what they want without giving them shit?

[Hate Is Art]

I have nothing against religion, just religous organisations.

[Trissy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:44 PM
Ah! How many times do i have to read the same posts over and over again! I get the point stop repeating yourself over and over and over and over again! I'm going insane!
But the point is Adam that you don't have to read these things over and over again. You choose to read these things over and over again. You're commiting an act of bad faith my friend and no doubt that is why you feel you're losing your sanity...

[The Children of the Revolution]

I have nothing against religion, just religous organisations.


Haha, someone speaking sense at last! It is religious organisations that have been the oppressors of the masses throughout history, not religion itself!



Organized reactionary groups -- Nazis, fascists, racists -- should, in my opinion, be vigorously suppressed.


Hmmm. Although I agree with this, there is a possibility that your definition of "reactionary" may differ to mine. It might, for example, be extended to include everyone you disagree with... (About 99.73% of the population I reckon)



But those who attempt to inject reactionary views into public life...must realize that we communists are not going to "roll over" like harmless puppies.


Yes, those evil Christians... Trying to spread Peace and Love everywhere... I call it shocking... Burn them! Or feed them to the lions, let us return to our glorious Roman past!!



When you do get the chance to really "cut loose", how do you Christians behave?


You are moaning about the fundamentalists again. The ones that grab the headlines with their strange ideas and radical actions - and lead folk of 'lesser intellectual capacity' to develop vicious stereotypes on the rest of Christianity. (Or whatever religion is in the news; look at the recent treatment of Muslims!!)



"Peace & Love" my ass!


Indeed. Peace to your ass, may you suffer from uncontrolled bowel movements no more! Love your ass? I think that's pushing it, comrade RedStar!

[Solace]

Haha, someone speaking sense at last! It is religious organisations that have been the oppressors of the masses throughout history, not religion itself!

That's like saying we should blame racists and not racism.

The oppressors were acting in the name of religion. They were doing the "right" thing. Religion, at best, make people lean towards conservative ideas and eliminate chances for social progress.

[redstar2000]

Yes, those evil Christians... Trying to spread Peace and Love everywhere... I call it shocking... Burn them! Or feed them to the lions, let us return to our glorious Roman past!!

As you might imagine, my sympathies were always with the lions in those encounters...mainly because the Romans would starve the poor felines for a week or more in order to insure "a good show" in the arena.

But since you have invited me to a pleasurable fantasy...

Today at FENWAY PARK, 2:00 PM

Boston Zoo RED LIONS

vs.

Archdiocese Christian CHILD MOLESTERS

A Benefit for the Save the African Lion Fund

Now that's a game I'd pay to watch!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[The Children of the Revolution]

As you might imagine, my sympathies were always with the lions in those encounters...mainly because the Romans would starve the poor felines for a week or more in order to insure "a good show" in the arena.

But since you have invited me to a pleasurable fantasy...


I see. You're an animal rights protestor now. You don't look upon the Christians and feel any pity? A minority group being oppressed for their beliefs? The joke's on you, of course - the poor chaps that ended up in the lion's mouth will enjoy eternity in heaven... And you will be forced to watch daytime television and listen to Bu$h's speeches... forever! (If that doesn't make you convert, I don't know what will)

I guess I can only reciprocate here:

Game of the Week!

Comrade RedStar, armed with a blunt sausage and thrown into a pit from which there is no escape takes on the might of... The Jehovah's Witnesses! Haha, there's no door to slam in their faces this time! We get to watch you slowly turn insane (read: more insane) and try to stab yourself with the aforementioned blunt sausage! With, it must be noted, little success...

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 27 2004, 02:54 PM
K, before i state my question, I'll just make it known that i consider myself verry religious! haha. Ok, here goes nothing.

Well, I've read somewhere before that religion is weird, because it helps ppl's psychological outlook. I.e. - if someone dies, psychologically, they wanna see the person so bad that their imagination 'imagines' seeing them in a dream reassuring everything is okay...anyone believe this?

Now, being totally religious (i'll never become atheist, haha), I just wanna ask...how can ppl not believe if nobody knows? I mean, sure the choice is ours, but if I believe and you dont, should either be stigmatized? Live-and-let-live mentality?

(just a question that came up while talking wit friends)
reading your posts is liking listening to that bully on the simpsons...

You ask why we just live and let live, well the answer is, it isnt real...it's like letting everyone who thinks murdering small children walk around the streets doing exactly that because they happen to believe it's ok...and yes, I am comparing religion with child murderers, they are both sick depraved things that should be stopped...however, it's how you go about doing it which is the big question. With child murderers we have a lot to learn. We can understand what drives them to commit these horrible crimes and hopefully put an end to it in a progressive way...Religion however has nothing to offer us in the way of understanding, except bigotry and subservience to something we can never understand on principle. Our minds are too small to comprehend the majestic wonderousness that is this higher being who benevolently, or not so, depending on which religion out of the hundreds you have decided to blindly follow, watch over us and pretty much laugh at us while we fuck each other offer and destroy the planet we live on...With that I say rip down the churches, the synogogues, temples and shrines and give the people hope that this world is where the heaven is and it is this world we have to fight for...

If it offends your sensibilities then good...find something better to do with your time....

[DarkAngel]

Wow there are so many religion boards, maybe they should have their own little folder in the chit-chat section.


-Well anyway I belive religion was made to comfort people in a time of need, ex. like a child and a baby blankey.... hmmm the adult version :blink:. I am just saying no one is ever going to prove religion and no one is ever going to disprove it while people have their own thoughts and feelings.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Mar 1 2004, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (The Anarchist Tension @ Mar 1 2004, 01:04 PM)
Knowledge 6 6 [email protected] 27 2004, 02:54 PM
K, before i state my question, I&#39;ll just make it known that i consider myself verry religious&#33; haha. Ok, here goes nothing.

Well, I&#39;ve read somewhere before that religion is weird, because it helps ppl&#39;s psychological outlook. I.e. - if someone dies, psychologically, they wanna see the person so bad that their imagination &#39;imagines&#39; seeing them in a dream reassuring everything is okay...anyone believe this?

Now, being totally religious (i&#39;ll never become atheist, haha), I just wanna ask...how can ppl not believe if nobody knows? I mean, sure the choice is ours, but if I believe and you dont, should either be stigmatized? Live-and-let-live mentality?

(just a question that came up while talking wit friends)
reading your posts is liking listening to that bully on the simpsons...

You ask why we just live and let live, well the answer is, it isnt real...it&#39;s like letting everyone who thinks murdering small children walk around the streets doing exactly that because they happen to believe it&#39;s ok...and yes, I am comparing religion with child murderers, they are both sick depraved things that should be stopped...however, it&#39;s how you go about doing it which is the big question. With child murderers we have a lot to learn. We can understand what drives them to commit these horrible crimes and hopefully put an end to it in a progressive way...Religion however has nothing to offer us in the way of understanding, except bigotry and subservience to something we can never understand on principle. Our minds are too small to comprehend the majestic wonderousness that is this higher being who benevolently, or not so, depending on which religion out of the hundreds you have decided to blindly follow, watch over us and pretty much laugh at us while we fuck each other offer and destroy the planet we live on...With that I say rip down the churches, the synogogues, temples and shrines and give the people hope that this world is where the heaven is and it is this world we have to fight for...

If it offends your sensibilities then good...find something better to do with your time.... [/b]
how are reading my posts like listening to Nelson from the Simpsons?

I never said it offends my &#39;sensibilities&#39;...moron.

I was just asking a question. How you took it is your own perrogative.

Moron.
Lol. Morons today...

[The Feral Underclass]

how are reading my posts like listening to Nelson from the Simpsons?

That&#39;s it..Nelson...i couldnt remember his name....

HA HA&#33;


I never said it offends my &#39;sensibilities&#39;...moron.

Niether did I...I was predicting it would..&#33; Did it?


Moron.
Lol. Morons today...

Not very godly is it&#33;&#33;&#33; Shame on you...burn baby burn&#33;&#33;&#33;