The Cuba Thread

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I have for a while wanted to start a thread about Cuba. And I mean a serious discussion facilatating debate on its merits and faults.

As the Politics Forum warns 'No One Liners'. Dont just say 'Yeah Cuba is socialist. etc.

Back up your points and lets have a serious discussion.

The question quite simply is do you support Cuba and should it be defended. Also the implications of whether it is socialism, communist etc. is implied as well as the question of Fidel as dictator.

If this has been done before well I ask why not spark a new debate for new members to add some input and older members to reitarate their points.

I will add my own opinion once the debate has kicked off, I have an essay to do :(

[Red Guard]

Well i myself am Cuban and have lots of family memebers who live over there. Most of them don't live pretty good. We always send them things like shoes, clothes etc... I plan on visiting in either April or May to see everything first hand. Then i will give my full and complete opinion on what i saw and think about Cuba.

Oh and of course, Yankees hands off Cuba! :D

[Scottish_Militant]

I always defend the Cuban revolution against right wing slander. It is hard to form a concrete opinion however as I hear so many different tales about life there. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to think it was a fantastic socialist society but is this really the case? I guess i'll never know for sure until I save up enough money to visit.

[Monty Cantsin]

Comandante Cubano im not douting what your saying about cuba, but the thing we have to remeber is its still is a 3 world country and for that its doing great.


p. ill post some stats i found later but now its off to school.

[Red Guard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 03:05 PM
Comandante Cubano im not douting what your saying about cuba, but the thing we have to remeber is its still is a 3 world country and for that its doing great.

I agree completely. Castro said it best a couple of weeks back in a speach he made, "Cuba has managed to do alot with very little". My brother actually visited last August and also agrees with that. He lived there until he was twelve, i was just there for six months in my mom's stomach. :D

What's really funny is how all these U$ politicians keep saying Cuba is in misery while at the same time saying the embargo is helping them. :rolleyes:

[Akasha]

I think it's obvious that Cuba is doing better than it did pre-Castro. For one it's no longer owned by the Americans; it has a literacy rate of 97% and under Batista it had an illiteracy rate of more than 70%; it has universal health coverage and free education for any of it's citizens. Are there problems...of course but are there not problems in the U.S. and in Canada as well? The U.S. is consistent in not only their human rights violations but in their bullying of other nations as well. I didn't see Castro attack Iraq. What would Bush do if Castro were holding five Americans under anti-terrorist laws as he is doing in the case of the Cuban five. There are always going to be people, even Cubans, who voice an opinion against socialism/communism...that's freedom.

[Scottish_Militant]

An important point to make is that no matter how Cuba (or anywhere) can be under the system of a nationalised planned economy it will always be endangered whilst capitalism exists worldwide. Only the worldwide socialist revolution can do away with that threat.

[YDSofLVA]

On the Cuba issue I always have to go with Fidel over the alternative that was.
I mean, under Fidel noone will disagree that they have excellent healthcare, for free. And edication.
But the are opressed. Freedom does not exist. If you don't agree with the state you're wrong.
On the other hand. Batsita
Just as opressed but without the education or healthcare.
Lesser of two evils?
The one that genuinely benefits the people more.
I think it woudl be really great if Fidel would allow a truely democratic society and just show the Cuban people how awesome socialism is. But I'd say its better now than if they still had dictators on the US paycheck comanding every aspect of the society.

But hey. Maybe America could try some democracy eh? So we have a two party system instead of a one party system. And you don't go to jail for being part of a radical party (anymore *cough*Mcarthy*cough*) But you still are discriminated against in politics.

Yeh Castro does some bad things, but he certainly ain't no Stalin.

[Fidel Castro]

I have read a bit on the situation in Cuba, and the impression I get is that there are undeniable hardships, but you have got to remember that Cuba's economy has been all but crushed due to 4 main factors:

1 - The collapse of the Soviet Union, for which Cuba was highly dependant for trade, before this collapse Cuba's economy was very good and the Peso was quite strong against the dollar.

2 - The US embargo, estimated to have lost Cuba in the region of $70 billion. As the United States is such an economically dominant force a lack of trade is bound to have severe effects. Not to mention of course that when the US embargos Cuba, other countries may limit their trade with Cuba also.

3 - The US-imposed travel ban, which prevents potential thousands of Americans from making use of Cuba's tourist industry and therefore preventing valuble US dollars entering the Cuban economy.

4 - Cuban domestic problems, like many third-world nations, Cuba has long been over-dependant on one crop, sugar. The price of sugar has been falling, demand for Cuban sugar has been falling (again the embargo and Soviet collapse hit the sugar industry hard) and so Cuba has been forced to invest money in other sources of income, namely tourism. Cuba has had the fastest growing tourist industry for a while but the growth is slowing. There have been some criticisms also that the government has invested too much profit back into expanding tourism rather than other areas.

Despite these difficulties, there is evidence of slow economic recovery. Remember also these facts:

1 - Cuban healthcare is the best in Latin America according to the UN

2 - Cuban education is the best in Latin America according to the UN

3 - The infant mortality rate in Havana is lower than that of Washington DC

4 - Death by firing squad has recently been banned by the Cuban Government and the Death penalty itself is under review.

5 - The 1997/98 elections showed that whilst not all Cubans support Fidel, a majority of approx 96% do support their leader. Many of those elected then were new candidates, and many were women.

Also consider that some academics argue that although Cuban political freedoms are not as high as Western Standards in certain areas, they are excellent compared to the rest of the Third World, and stand to continue improving as they are. The strictness of the government can also, partially at least, be blamed on the constant US pressure and agression. Remember that the US is doing all in it's power to undermine the Cuban regime and so tensions are bound to run high, and suspicions are bound to fall in those who most aggressivly oppose the government and may have links to the US.

When I return from my trip to Cuba in June I will submit a report on the forum on my findings from visits to schools and hospitals, and working conditions on state-owned farms.

[Shane]

after reading Genghis2003 intresting post and my own knowledge, Cuba has made the best of an awful situtation. made the most of very little and bulding/investing the foundations of economic growth. - those health care and education statments are promising, if the US keeps hands off, the next generation of cubans could really turn things around for the country.

[Jesus Sanchez]

Well i was watching a documentary on cuba last night, and cuba was better than i ever thought it was. They seem to have an exellent education system.

And Comandante Cubano, I welcome yo, for finally we have a Cuban on the board.

[shyguywannadie]

Firstly I have NOT been to Cuba, though I hope I will one day.

I do NOT believe everything that i am told but try to base opinions on facts.


FACT: Cuban scientists have given details of a new vaccine against a bacterium which causes meningitis and pneumonia. It is made using a novel synthetic technology, and the scientists hope it will be cheaper than existing vaccines against Haemophilus influenzae or Hib. (27th Nov 2003)
Cuba developes cheap HIB vaccine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3242052.stm)

According to a website: Global Statistics (http://www.globastat.com)

Infant mortality per 1000 live births:
162 worst in the world Cuba is 7.39
165 worst in the world USA is 6.76

Cuba has a 95.7% literacy rate (64th best in the world)
USA has a 97% literacy rate (59th best in the world)

Life expectancy:

36th best in the world Cuba has 76.41
30th best in the world USA has 77.26


Also life style is a matter of opinion, saying for example "we" in the US have 4 TV's in each house (yes i made that up, just for examples sake) and in Cuba the have 1 therefore the US is better?
That is a matter of opinion, personally being a couch potato watching celebraties walking the red carpet is not my idea of an advanced country.


I think these stats show that for the 3rd world country that Cuba is, showing its resourcefulness/ability to adapt to what the world throws at it that all leftists should be damn pleased with it.

Also like what has been said before, yes i acknowledge that it has problems, but what country doesnt?

[dannie]

but just because a country makes the best out of a bad situation, does that mean you should support them?
i didn't really form an opinion yet about cuba's government, but i do support the cuban people and the cuban revolution

i tend to believe that a lot of leftists see cuba too much in figures instead of real life facts.

about the medical care, yes, it is free, but the quality isn't THAT good, from talks with an organisation that sends aid to cuba i learned that in a hospital with 16 doctors, none had a stetoscope, wich is a vital piece of equipment for a doctor, these conditions are to cry about

there is tourist apartheid, cubans aren't allowed in a lot of bars where only tourists are allowed, two classes exist in cuba, the ones with dollars and the ones without
a good book on this is the cuban diaries

[redstar2000]

I think there are two questions, one complicated and one very simple.

The nature of Cuban society and its economy is a complicated question.

The attitude we should all have in the struggle between Cuba and U.S. imperialism is very simple.

Under no circumstances do we support the United States against Cuba...or any other country!

There is no such thing as a "left" position in support of U.S. imperialism, period!

If anyone tries to pass off on you the rationale that because Cuba falls short of this or that left expectation and "therefore" it's "ok" to side with or cooperate with the U.S., tell them to fuck off!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Red Guard]

Originally posted by Jesus [email protected] 25 2004, 11:14 PM
And Comandante Cubano, I welcome yo, for finally we have a Cuban on the board.
Gracias jefe! :D

[Hate Is Art]

about the medical care, yes, it is free, but the quality isn't THAT good, from talks with an organisation that sends aid to cuba i learned that in a hospital with 16 doctors, none had a stetoscope, wich is a vital piece of equipment for a doctor, these conditions are to cry about


Compared to USA where most people have no access to a doctor at all, I would rather have shoddy health care then no health care.


Also life style is a matter of opinion, saying for example "we" in the US have 4 TV's in each house (yes i made that up, just for examples sake) and in Cuba the have 1 therefore the US is better?
That is a matter of opinion, personally being a couch potato watching celebraties walking the red carpet is not my idea of an advanced country.

I totaly agree, we don't need 4 televisions and 2 cars and cable TV to have a good life.

[Fidel Castro]

As for the question of human rights, try to remember that every nation (no matter what anti-nationalistic sentiments we have) has it's own standards, culture, economic matters and foreign matters which can all contribute to how harsh the system is. We have to avoid judging all nations by US or other Western standards and focus on areas which are universally agreed, for example:

Does Cuba allow torture - No
Does Cuba make wide use of the death penalty - No
Does Cuba jail citizens without trial - No
Does Cuba allow accused legal representation - Yes
Are democratic elections held - Yes
Is there access to open media - Limited but available
Is protest against the government allowed - Not large scale protests or dissent
Is health and education available - Yes
Does the government offer protection to citizens - Yes

Remember that although the Cuban government is under immense pressure and aggression from the US, and it has been proved in the past that there are forces actively at work in Cuba trying to de-stablise the government and rouse the people to rise against their leader.

Go to Saudi Arabia and watch people have their hands cut off, go to Guantanamo and see people being held prisoner without charge or trial, go to the US and expect only to recieve healthcare (a basic human right) if you can pay.

[Hate Is Art]

thats interesting infomation, you have enlightened me.