Revolutionary Organization 17 November

[Dreadnaht1]

A few nights ago 60 Minutes had a spot on their program in which they discussed the terrorist group Revolutionary Organization 17 November (N-17) located in Greece. I've known about the organization for a long time since I've visited Greece before and from what I've learned they're not terrorists, in fact they're far from it.

According to USA any oganization that is anti-American and demonstrates this through violent means is supposedly "terrorist." In reality N-17 is a very secretive group that practices anti-imperialism, anti-americanism, anti-capitalism etc. They're ideas are a violent Marxist/Lenin type and they pretty much go around Greece and take out Imperialist U$A.

For example in Greece during the Gulf War the group assasinated a US army seargent and took out several US embassies with bombs and rockets--with precision.

This according to the U$A makes them terrorists but when you look at it from a leftist point of view they're nothing more then just revolutionaries trying to protect the country they love by ridding it of imperialist U$A. Seems pretty different then actual terrorism, terrorism like the U$A. The group has only accidentally killed one civilian and that was in a 1992 embassy attack. Pretty good casualty rate for 20 years. And because of the extremely large socialist party in Greece no attempt is being made by their government to stop them from "terrorizing" the U$A.

So in your opinion are these simply anti-imperialists taking out U$ influence in Greece or are they "terrorists?"

-Dread

[Kez]

finally, a militant group, and now we complain, maybe with reason,
i heard they screwd they yanks up when nato (usa) was raping yugoslavia, they have great intentions, and what the americans do deserve war

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

as long as they stick to military targets i do not see how they can be classified as terrorists.

[CheGuevara]

Oh, so Kamo, you think the world should've sat back while Serbia raped the rest of Yugoslavia? Milosevic is a genocidal crazy fuckhead and I hope they put a bullet through his head. I don't agree at all with some of Nato's bombing targets, particularly during the Kosovo incident, where they bombed lots of targets within Serbia. If your comments were directed only at the Nato bombing of economic targets within Serbia, my apologies.

[HardcoreCommie]

but so long as they ATTACK isn't the US justified in defending its interest and personel. Listen, I'm not in love with american policy, but if find it ridiculous that people here expect the US to take an assfucking without doing anything. If greece has such a large socialist contingent they should do more to expel the "US presence" through governmental means, not by coddling a group that is clearly terrorist in nature.

[DaNatural]

i like your attitude hardcore and i couldnt agree more with your view on the matter. You cannot bully or physically, through the means of armaments, overpower the usa, its impossible. I dont know why you guys fail to see this. Whatever these groups do, the usa will turn around and do it back to them 50 times worse. Only social change, done through mass organization and self education can help matters. Assasinations and other attacks regardless of how politically motivated they are only brings state repression and counter attacks. Look at palestine for example. Sharon had enough of the suicide bombers and sent Jets out to blow the shit out of palestine. being from greece my dad has told me about this group but obviously they need to gather strength from the people and keep away from the violence. peace

[Dreadnaht1]

Unfortunately, I think this group is strictly violent and has no means of joining with the people. They're rather mysterious which is good in this case since no one knows who they are or how they operate. I do think that the socialist party should try and get the USA out while it still can before they start heavily interacting which could be pretty bad.

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

Everyone will define terrorism differently, and some of the groups that the US has defined as "terrorist" definitely aren't . . . but I don't know about these guys. Terrorism isn't simply violence, because then Washington and Eisenhower would be terrorists. My personal opinion is that what makes something terrorism is senselessness, and so this excludes wars, etc. But they took out a sergeant who wasn't even in the Middle East during the Gulf War? I personally would never join the Army but I know some kids who were in it for a few years to get college money. If he was on the actual battlefield during the war and these guys killed him that would be one thing, or if he was a general who had made some heartless decisions then a whole different set of questions would have to be asked. And maybe you haven't noticed this, Dread, but lots of young people who aspire to be involved in politics get work in embassies . . . but not necessarily future politicians, more like future activists. Future politicians are a LOT more likely to go to law school or sit around in their father's mansions snorting coke. But even then, you know what? I understand that the USA has done plenty of horrible things, hell they've double-fucked me more times than I can count. I also understand that lots of ambassadors get to where they are by trading favors, as was the case with both Clinton and Bush. That doesn't justify killing.

Howard Zinn, who is definitely against the war in Afghanistan that I hated (you probably did as well) said that just cause does not equal just war. In addition, many groups, even if they have strong ideals and only a few members are semi-violent (like the Black Panthers) will find success in the most non-violent programs. Bobby Seale's breakfast programs in Oakland were the most successful Panther project, but this was definitely not what the group based themselves on. The NAACP, SNCC, etc. were definitely more successful. Now I'm not saying that every program modeled like Freedom Summer will work wonders. However, groups like this one hardly ever even get the slightest results, but they almost always smear the names of their entire movement.

I have talked to endless conservatives saying, "Plenty of innocent people are on death row, and even if someone is guilty, does that justify ending a person's life?" How am I supposed to convince reactionaries that people who kill members of their own family deserve to live until NATURAL death when people who support the same causes that I do ("anti-imperialism, anti-americanism, anti-capitalism etc." ) go around killing people?

P.S. It is entirely possible to be both an anti-imperialist and a terrorist at the same time, just like it is possible to be an imperialist and a terrorist at the same time. It's not an either/or choice.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 6:22 am on Jan. 9, 2002)

[CommieBastard]

they strike only military targets. simple as: not terrorists.

hardcorecommie, you say that the US has a right to defend itself from this?
but i am afraid the people of greece have a right to defend themselves from the incursion of US troops onto their soil.
it is a common argument from the US that they are defending themselves from someone, but more often than not, they are defending themselves from someone else defending theirselves. They will also often say they are getting just vengeance, yet, again, they are getting veangeance for someone else exacting vengeance for what the US originally did. Unless the US starts pulling out troops and influence from all over the world, and unless they start apologising and repaying all the peoples they have trashed over the years, then attacks in a similar vein to S11 are simply not going to end.

[HardcoreCommie]

well the problem is that the government of greece invited the US to put troops on greek soil. Then the majority of greek people by continuing to support, through the legislative process, the governments that keep US troops in greece, legitimized the government's committment. Then this group which is a minority attacks the US troops that are legitamately stationed in greece.

That's not how the US will be expeled. On the contrary the greek's who want the US out should use the same legislative process that let the US in. Until then the US is, unfortunately, legitimately in greece. The left in greece should put forth good reasons for getting rid of the US. By good reasons I mean pragmatic reasons not ideological reasons, because only pragmatic reasons resonate with the public.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 9:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
they strike only military targets. simple as: not terrorists.
An embassy is not a military target. Embassies are full of civilians.

Quote: from CommieBastard on 9:15 pm on Jan. 9, 2002
but i am afraid the people of greece have a right to defend themselves from the incursion of US troops onto their soil.
If the US invaded Greece, then the Greek army would have every right to kill any US sergeant they found. And I would root for Greece, because the US should not be there. But the fact of the matter is that the US is allowed to be there, according to the Greek government. That doesn't mean they should be there, but it does mean that they CAN. The Greek people should organize, protest peacefully, and try to influence their government through petitions, etc. But until this is done, how will we even know that the Greek people really object? I think America should get the fuck out of Greece, but if the majority of the Greek people don't mind McDonald's, who am I to support violence?

[CheGuevara]

Bah, more wishy washy pacifism. Remember, the people can be fooled, tricked, fed false information, etc, etc. Don't put too much faith in elections and polls.

By the way, does "Hardcore" refer to the quality of the porn at which you look ? It certainly doesn't seem to refer to anything else.

(Edited by CheGuevara at 3:39 am on Jan. 10, 2002)


(Edited by CheGuevara at 3:40 am on Jan. 10, 2002)

[Jurhael]

"And because of the extremely large socialist party in Greece no attempt is being made by their government to stop them from "terrorizing" the U$A."

What large socialist party? KKE? They only have 11 seats in the Parliament. CLP? They have 6? That's out of over 200 seats filled with Social Democrats and NeoLiberal Right-Wingers? THAT'S an extremely large socialist party?! You've got to be kidding me.

As for N17 themselves. I'm sorry. They're terrorists. Simple as it gets. Oh suuuure, they've targeted military areas, but they've also targeted areas that are civilian. THAT is what makes them terrorist. They've also killed civilians. Suuuure, not as many as say...Al Quaida, but enough for people to notice. And enough for the victims to not allow the Greek government to forget who died.

I daresay that the only reason why the Greek government/people have done little or nothing is because Greeks aren't getting killed. But no one knows for sure because 20 people don't speak for 11 million people and the Greek political arena is do divided that they may as well take their politcal mudslinging to Thunderdome.

But, i guess it doesn't help that a small terrorist group is hard to catch. There's only 20 of them and can blend in VERY easily.

Oh yea...don't put too much faith in polls and in PEOPLE!!!! Yanno. Let's convince them with VIOLENCE THAT IS COMPLETLY AND UTTERLY UNECESSARY!

Papadopalos is gone. N17 should have gone with him. There is ABSOLUTLY NO REASON to be bombing banks and embassies when it's been 25 years since the dictatorship ended.

As for US troops in Greece. Oh please. The base I remembered while in Greece has been closed for YEARS thanks to Bush SR. All that's left is a small airbase and a naval base.

The Greek people have done MUCH MORE through strong, peaceful protests(and I know this from experiance and actually reading about them) than anything violent. I can't even think of any exceptions...because I don't believe the Student Uprising of 1973 was violent at all. Either way, it DID help ruin the dictatorship.

[CheGuevara]

There are many civilian targets that are legitimate targets of a worker's revolution. Being a civilian doesn't give you immunity from conflict. If that's terrorism, fine.

Elections can be faked, mishandled (2000), poor set up(electoral college, 2000), voters can be threatened, and of course, the major candidates are all either rich or the mouthpiece of the wealthy party which has infinite amounts of wealth to drown their opponents in sweetsmelling vommit...any variety of things. You're right, 20 armed guys don't speak for the WHOLE country, but if you want to trust your future of your country to the capitalist electoral system, in whatever country, you're fucking nuts....

[HardcoreCommie]

If you want to trust YOUR future to 20 armed guys then, my friend, you're nuts.

[I Will Deny You]

"There are many civilian targets that are legitimate targets of a worker's revolution. Being a civilian doesn't give you immunity from conflict. If that's terrorism, fine."
This is not a worker's revolution. The Greek people are not oppressed like the Cubans were under Batista. Dread himself said, "Unfortunately, I think this group is strictly violent and has no means of joining with the people." If they have no means of joining with the people, why should they be supported? Shouldn't a group supported by the people be the one that's praised around here?

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:05 am on Jan. 10, 2002
Elections can be faked, mishandled (2000), poor set up(electoral college, 2000), voters can be threatened, and of course, the major candidates are all either rich or the mouthpiece of the wealthy party which has infinite amounts of wealth to drown their opponents in sweetsmelling vommit...any variety of things.
I hate the American electoral system and I have actually made a number of posts about it and started a topic about it. Until now I had pressed for patience and reforms to clean up elections, but now I have a better idea! I'll overthrow the government and install you as dictator.

Quote: from CheGuevara on 6:05 am on Jan. 10, 2002
You're right, 20 armed guys don't speak for the WHOLE country, but if you want to trust your future of your country to the capitalist electoral system, in whatever country, you're fucking nuts....
I don't want to trust my country with either one, but a capitalist electoral system sounds better than 20 armed guys if you ask me.

(Edited by I Will Deny You at 6:54 am on Jan. 10, 2002)

[RedCeltic]

If you want to trust YOUR future to 20 armed guys then, my friend, you're nuts.

That's exactly what I would say... struggle to be heard in a corupt system or have a gun pointed at your head... hmmm

[CheGuevara]

You're all disgraces. Speaking of Batista, you would've been Batista's little asskissing "indepent" candidates during those fradulent elections he held during the revolution.

[Dreadnaht1]

So far I agree the most with what CommieBastard said. Allthough this is still 99.9% controversial and it's all a matter of opinion. I don't expect a whole lot of people to agree with me or support this group. The Socialist Party of Greece in fact supports the N-17 and again no effort is made by them to stop the group. So by not doing anything they are doing something. It's not a very good way to go about removing the U$A from their nation but I don't think the socialist party can effectively influence or sway the capitalist party to remove the U$A. Again, it's another controversial issue.

Che Guevara: "By the way, does "Hardcore" refer to the quality of the porn at which you look ? It certainly doesn't seem to refer to anything else."

I concur.

-Dread

[Capitalist]

Terrorist, Guerilla, Kamikaze, Hijacker, - does it really matter?

They are all the same.

Small group of armed people that intimidate the larger population with guns, airplanes, or deadly force.

[Dreadnaht1]

Wow you are stupid. Buying all that CNN bullshit, I thought you just might've been smarter then that. My bad. I guess all flag-waving-Americans like to distort the line between terrorist, american, and anti-american.

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 7:04 am on Jan. 10, 2002
You're all disgraces. Speaking of Batista, you would've been Batista's little asskissing "indepent" candidates during those fradulent elections he held during the revolution.Considering the fact that I'm the one who's advocating democracy, I think it's pretty funny that you think I'd support a dictator. I would never support Batista. It's really stupid that you think I would, considering the fact that I'm posting at Che boards. Maybe you should stick to our actual arguments, based on facts. I'm a disgrace? Tell me why!

Just to clear this up: I am not, nor have I ever been, a Batista supporter.

But 20 armed Batistas would be quite a different story!

[CheGuevara]

No, you'd just be one who'd play along with his fradulent elections under the naive belief that he wouldn't play the part of the little man behind the curtain again, as he had done before, and thus give them seemingly more validity.

As for this being a Che board, apparently that has little relevance here as this board is flooded by lukewarm, half-hearted socialists, as well as a smattering of capitalists. Obviously, posting here does not automatically mean you have any connection with El Che.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 1:21 am on Jan. 11, 2002
No, you'd just be one who'd play along with his fradulent elections under the naive belief that he wouldn't play the part of the little man behind the curtain again, as he had done before, and thus give them seemingly more validity.What makes you think that? You have nothing to back up your accusations. I said that I support democracy. Democracy does not equal fraudulent elections, and I do not support the Supreme Court's ruling on Bush. I do not support Bush, his "war on terrorism," his war in Afghanistan, his economic policy, his foreign policy, or pretty much anything else he has ever said or done. However, Bush did have the support of between ten and fifteen percent of the American populace (40-50 percent of the people who voted in the election). I'm not sure who I despise more: Bush or 20 armed guys. Bush is definitely responsible for more deaths, but that's because the RO17N hasn't had as many opportunities to kill. I wouldn't want either one running my country, or any country.

[RedCeltic]

In my eyes... the use of a violent revolution should be used as a last resort... the situation in Cuba was one that called for a "Last resort".

[Capitalist]

"Wow you are stupid. Buying all that CNN bullshit"

-Dread

Just for the record DreadNaught1 - I don't respect CNN one bit.

CNN is owned by Ted Turner - the same Ted Turner that married Jane Fonda. The same Ted Turner who is buddy chummy with Fidel Castro.

Remember that CNN (Communist News Network) is the only News that Fidel Castro allows in the Tourist Hotels of Cuba.

I prefer Fox News - they are more fair.

I prefer true journalism like Bill O'Reilley

[DaNatural]

hahah o'reiley? capitalist u are a real disgarce that guy is the most arrogant idiotic man ive seen cover news.

[CheGuevara]

So when do you determine that it has become a last resort? O, you mean when YOUR ass has been exploited to the point where YOU'RE living in poverty? Revolution should not come before excessive preparation, but neither should it hinge on all of our rights being taken away.

[I Will Deny You]

Nah DaNatural, I think Stossel's worse. But regardless, anyone who calls himself "The O'Reilly Factor" can't really be called a journalist, he's just a little man who sits around and complains. At least no one on CNN calls himself "The Blitzer Factor." Not that I like CNN, I think Turner is a racist. (However I must admit that it is tempting to turn into O'Reilly's upcoming interview with Geraldo (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,42185,00.html). Only a true journalist like O'Reilly is worthy of interviewing Geraldo.)

The Jane Fonda reference seems kind of random since she hasn't done anything remotely leftist since she split with Hayden, who is a million times more left-wing than Turner.

I don't watch any TV news, though. I actually read to find out what's happening in the world. No 22 minutes of weather and analysis of why the Redskins lost this week and eight minutes of wackos from former Soviet republics who want to sell me a mattress.

-----
The Lindsay Factor strikes again! Be sure to turn into my TV show on by Rupert Murdoch's ever-ethical and honest Temptation Island News Channel.

[libereco]

Oh.....i remember the fox news.

One of the reasons I stopped watching news alltogether while in the US and resorting to the Internet.


"Action News" they call it don't they?

News that are about unimportant shit that noone really cares about while the international news take about 1:30 minutes (now it might have changed).

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from CheGuevara on 12:23 am on Jan. 11, 2002
So when do you determine that it has become a last resort? O, you mean when YOUR ass has been exploited to the point where YOU'RE living in poverty? Revolution should not come before excessive preparation, but neither should it hinge on all of our rights being taken away.


It's not a realistic option in the countery you and I live in the United States. I wouldn't exactly call our form of Govt. a "Democracy" but we are hardly in the situation Cuba was in.. or Russia was in in 1917.

[Dreadnaht1]

Go to a peaceful protest and things will look rather Batista like. Tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. The only difference is Batista didn't use tear gas or rubber bullets just bullets.

-Dread