How the world got in this state?

[Hate Is Art]

I was just thinking to myself the other day how did we end up in this stupid mess, the environment is in tatters, the difference between super rich and super poor is huge, 20% of the worlds population use up 80% of the worlds resources. I could go on but thats not the point what do you think created this huge screwed up mess.

I blame capitilism, this may sound naive but when you look at it, the slave trade destroyed Africa's population and so it didn't have the required population to industrialize itself, this coupled with poor land for growing a variety of crops led to a very poor Africa which we have continued to abuse ever since.

The environment is often but on the wayside because of needs for capitilist expansion, rainforests and chopped down for cattle breeding and building and our huge need for wood in it's different forms, the sea is used as a huge dustbin for all kinds of waste and sewage from factorys, the ozone layer gets treated like crap although this is improving, (CFC free doedrents, Kyoto Pact, which ironicaly USA didn't sign)

and the west using up the worlds resources can be linked to our need for material good and of living the continued high life at the expense of the poor.

what are your opions on this?

[Rasta Sapian]

The cause for much of this draining the earth of its natural resources does lie in the hand of the impirialist pigs which existed throughout the industrial revolution up to now!

The cause can be explained by one word only this is "Greed" giving the fat cats all the resources and material good needed to live a life a exploitation, while at the same time leaving the rest of the world to pick up the peices.

Only when we rid the world of greed will we have regained the equalibrium that the planet once held with the environment!

[Scottish_Militant]

It's all down to the evolution of monkey to man which developed labour, labour developed classes and classes developed capitalism. Capitalism of course gives birth to imperialism which in turn kicks the workers into shape and we now have the historical task of giving birth to socialism.

I wish it was as easy as it sounded :rolleyes:

[YDSofLVA]

The biggest problem is that the "capitalism" isn't even really capitalism. In a capitalist society, you are always trying to expand the market and you pay higher and higher wages to get better workers. In the current sytem ,third world nations are opressed and not allowed to grow so that jobs can be exported to them. then the abdundant labor force can be paid slavewages so that the products can BE BROUGHT BACK TO AMERICA. As a result of the circle, products HAVE to be made in foregin places to be purchased here, because the average joe has less and less money because the jobs are being exported. Its one of them vicous cycle things. If they would be ehtical about it all capitalism wouldn't suck AS hard. I mean. Its still not cool. But it wouldn't be the destructive force ruining itself and the world daily if it were done properly.

[RedAnarchist]

Maybe the world is already turning towards socialism, just like those people who are right or left wing but are the total opposite later in life, and its thanks to people like Che and Fidel that it is faster.

That may sound a little far-fetched, but it isnt impossible

[katie mccready]

apathy i blam apathy it our one falt for not reconising it erlyer then capitalism would not have tooken controle.

[Scottish_Militant]

Capitalism has been historicaly progressive though, without things like slavery, feudalism and capitalism we would not have the technology and productive capabilities we do today.

The class system, as bad as it is and was for the millions who suffer and die, is responsible for providing us with the basis for the abolition of classes - socialism

[Hate Is Art]

I agree with pretty much everything you guys have said, especialy apathy, "oh they are chopping down the rain forest, doesn't concern me" then we just ignore it. Or the misguided belief thats there is nothing we can do about 3rd world poverty. The ordinary joe needs to wake up and realise everything in the world effects us.

But how can we do this? We need a radical change in how countrys are governed.

[dannie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 04:33 PM
Capitalism has been historicaly progressive though, without things like slavery, feudalism and capitalism we would not have the technology and productive capabilities we do today.
we would have, the need for better ways of production would be the same under socialism than it would be under slavery
we still would need boats to get goods around, we still would need a pump to get oil, we still would need a tractor to efficiently work on a field

[Scottish_Militant]

It was not possible for humans to jump straight into socialism though, the class system which enslaved the majority freed a minority from labour, this gave some time to develop things like science and technology. Of course nowadays there is no need for a class system to exist, but that has not always been the case.

Historical materialism should be studied by comrades interested in this discussion

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/study_guide2.html

[demonio comunista]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 09:11 PM
It's all down to the evolution of monkey to man which developed labour, labour developed classes and classes developed capitalism. Capitalism of course gives birth to imperialism which in turn kicks the workers into shape and we now have the historical task of giving birth to socialism.

I wish it was as easy as it sounded :rolleyes:
exactly what I was going to say. capitalism= :angry: imperialism= :angry: ahhhhhhh. then there is apathy which someone already said. apathy apathy apathy, :( . it really gets me how people can be so unconcerned with the world, i mean it wouldnt be so bad if the world was actually in good shape. but like digital nirvana said, 20% of the world uses 80% of the worlds resources. but its their ignorance that causes them not to care. most of them dont even know, you would have to sit there and explain it ALL to most of the people for them to understand what they are doing to the world. you tell them "you are destroying the world" and they are like ok. that tells them a lot. but yeah, thats JMO.

[Hate Is Art]

the major problem isn't educating people about it, because everyone knows but getting them do something about it. This is very difficult as people in the western world are to pre-occupied with living the high life to give a sod and the 3rd world is to concerned with scratching two flints together to make fire so they dont freeze to death to do anything and the ones who care aren't listened to.

[Rasta Sapian]

i think we should shake up these impirial pigs, living like fat cats in bourguiosie clothes, why should we the proletariot keep picking up their scraps, its time for a society without classes, all working together for a healthier planet full of like minded=educated people!

lets start the revolution now! and spread the wealth to everybody around the world! :o

[Don't Change Your Name]

Well capitalism isn't "evil" by nature, it was an advancement from the old feudalism, but as it didn't bring "happiness" and there's still poverty, starvation, and as there is pollution, extreme greed and imperialism, and as no reform of it improved the situation, it must be taken down. We shouldn't go around trying to bring it down, it will dissapear when the time comes, which will possibly be soon, when the conditions allow it. If we look at overpopulation, poverty, lack of opportunities, imperialism, lack of oil and water, pollution, global warming and lack of democracy, we can notice that in the following years things will get harder and this is not a stupid prediction, this time's for real. If there's another big crisis then you can say goodbye to capitalism. Meanwhile we need to search alternatives.

[Scottish_Militant]

Well capitalism isn't "evil" by nature, it was an advancement from the old feudalism, but as it didn't bring "happiness" and there's still poverty, starvation, and as there is pollution, extreme greed and imperialism, and as no reform of it improved the situation, it must be taken down. We shouldn't go around trying to bring it down, it will dissapear when the time comes, which will possibly be soon, when the conditions allow it. If we look at overpopulation, poverty, lack of opportunities, imperialism, lack of oil and water, pollution, global warming and lack of democracy, we can notice that in the following years things will get harder and this is not a stupid prediction, this time's for real. If there's another big crisis then you can say goodbye to capitalism. Meanwhile we need to search alternatives.


You are right to a degree but don't fall into the "capitalism will collapse" mentality as capitalism will never simply 'collapse', it must be overthrown and crushed everywhere it exists

[monkeydust]

Apathy is a most important reason, hand in hand with this is the problem of self-delusion.

For example, everybody knows fossil fuels are going ot eventually run out, oil sooner than most others. Whilst we may verbally acknoweledge this, many of us we choose to assume that 'it will all be alright', that we don't need to change our means of extracting energy.

As Digital Nirvana correctly pointed out, individualism has caused people to think that everything else is simply 'someone elses problem'. The comfortable lifestyles many expereince in the West our great (for them of course), it's much easier to put the problems of the Third World to the back of one's mind than it is to actively try and do something to solve the problem.

[Hate Is Art]

totaly agree Left, it's just how do we make these people realise that what they are doing is wrong? it's an uphill struggle.

Same with fossil fuels, people assume that it wont affect them, but it will, alternatives need to be found.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:52 PM
You are right to a degree but don't fall into the "capitalism will collapse" mentality as capitalism will never simply 'collapse', it must be overthrown and crushed everywhere it exists
It will be overthrown when the time comes. That was my point. Meanwhile we can only expect doing some changes on other levels to start promoting it's collapse.

[Ernestocheguevara]

It is the fault of the LEFT!! We spend all our time squabbling about who's right and who's wrong instead of uniting and keeping the Capitalists out! We have given them free run while we fight between ourselves they snuck in the back and took over and as long as we continue to fight they will always have the upperhand.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 26 2004, 09:03 PM
the major problem isn't educating people about it, because everyone knows but getting them do something about it. This is very difficult as people in the western world are to pre-occupied with living the high life to give a sod and the 3rd world is to concerned with scratching two flints together to make fire so they dont freeze to death to do anything and the ones who care aren't listened to.
I don't think that people are apathetic, but I do agree that most people know that there is something wrong. The problem is that people don't think there is an alternative because all of the so-called alternatives such as the Democrats or European Labor and Socialist parties end up supporting the system. But in revolutionary times real alternatives appear and the numbers of people supporting the alternaties to bourgoise politics increase dramatically. For example at the beginning of the Great Depression in America, many workers viewed unions like workers view unions today: in thew 1920's trade unionism was collaborative and there were company unions and segregated unions and so on and the trade unions were seen as ineffective. But when there were rank and file strikes in detroit or other industrial cities where workers occupied their workplaces and stopped production so the bosses had to give into their demands, other workers rushed to join unions because they wanted to make the gains they saw their brothers in Detroit making. Similarly, the Black Panther party ended up encouraging people in many cities to join the Panthers or create their own organization, not just in Oakland and not just African American (it effected Asian and Latino movements and the labor movement).

So I don't think people are apathetic, it's just that they see that there is no real point in being enthusiastic about things which do not work for them; things such as voting for the democrats or trying to be involved in bourgoise politics or joining unions or reform organizations which would rather lobby and collaborate with business than fight for the intrests of workers or people trying to change the system. So without convincing alternatives to the present status quo, all people are left hopeing is for the best life possible within the status quo so that means trying to make as much personal money because it is a better life in capitalism with money than without or just giving up on the here-and-now and, instead, dreaming of a better world in the next world.

Sometimes it is hard to understand this because we are already convinced that there is a better alternative or way of life for everyone if we can get rid of the system so that the working class can run society in all of our intrests. However, it is important to remember that the people who are not activists or political or trying to change society under one set of temporary conditions can be revolutionaries under another set of conditions; nobody is born with one set political understanding, people's conciousness goes back and forth.

[kingbee]

i would say in the early days of the soviet union. unfortunately, when stalin came to power, it was flawed, and he gave communism it's "dictator" image, i would say.

also the collapse in the 91 has given the world hegemony the chance to rule.

[revolutionindia]

the cause of all this is the degeneration in religions

Once all world religions are restored to their lost glory
humanity will be on track

[Solace]

Once all world religions are restored to their lost glory

Though I am trying, I don't see any element of glory in the main religion since their beginning. Fill me in.

Once we get rid of your bullshit, humanity will be on track.

Hell!

[Rasta Sapian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:09 PM
It is the fault of the LEFT!! We spend all our time squabbling about who's right and who's wrong instead of uniting and keeping the Capitalists out! We have given them free run while we fight between ourselves they snuck in the back and took over and as long as we continue to fight they will always have the upperhand.
Good point! Moderation and Liberalization will always have to counterbalance the right to sustain balance, ie. never truely acheiving socialism! but rather progressive socialism, I think that we should change progressive to repressive!

We have many moral and just socialists, what we need is more anarchists to help spark rebellion and revolution to the masses!