How to fight fascists?

[Raul Castro]

should we use gulag or firing squad?

[Jimmie Higgins]

For the most part we're planning to disguise ourselves as white women of affluence and culture in order to seduce fascists one by one. we will convince them that we are recruiters for the elite Bohemian Grove and invite them to follow us into the woods for a secret 1%er party... Bill Gates and Bono are playing beer-pong, we'll tell them. Once we are alone in the woods we will lure them to a spot marked with a "x" and an anvil will drop from a tree.

That should take care of most of them. Archeologists in fedoras should take care of the rest.

EDIT: maybe I misinterpreted the question. Did you mean: what would a future socialist/communist society do with fascists? Or do you mean what do leftists today, in our present state, do to handle growing fascist movements in Europe or India or far-right organizing in the US?

[willowtooth]

I'll tell you what were gonna do... were gonna find where they live or wherever they speaking publicly.... and were gonna sneak up on them.... and throw glitter in their faces

[John Nada]

What kind of silly question is this? Duh, firing squad!:rolleyes:

[jdneel]

WWMD?

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[Wageslavebrah]

communist jesus says gulag.

[GLF]

The way we fight fascists is by taking away the source of their power. We do it through education, political agitation, and the fostering of class-consciousness.

It's important to realize that fascists are, and always have been, a very small minority. The way the fascists rise to power is through the public support of non-fascists. They never gain power through revolution - always through election or appointment...then they destroy the system that brought them to power so that they will always have power. They achieve this through fear: they gain the support of the industrialists and conservatives by promoting fear of the left, and they gain the support of the masses by promoting fear of "the other" - Jews, immigrants, homosexuals, etc. Winning over the establishment is pretty easy in the correct circumstances - all you need is a powerful communist movement - but it is much harder to win over the masses (i.e "We have won power in Germany, now we must win over the German people").

Education is really the number one way to fight it. It's the only real way to fight it. There was a reason the Nazis burned books and discouraged university attendance. An ignorant populace is really and truly their life's blood.

Or were you just asking what violence to do to people under socialism? There are no firing squads in a socialist society. Reeducation facilities. Fight the rule, yes. But we don't go shooting every deluded person that we ourselves deem fascist.

It's important to understand what fascism truly is - it's something dark and evil, and something that has existed for as long as civilization has existed, and has manifested itself in many a ruler. There is a saying that societies get the leaders that they deserve. Before The Fascist Opportunist makes his appearance, the conditions have to be met. Antisemitism existed in Germany long before Hitler. And what we're seeing in America with the rise of Trump demonstrates this on a smaller scale (a black man in the white house reignited the far-right ahead of Trump). As leftists, the important thing is to keep those conditions from becoming such. This is where antifa and leftist resistance becomes vital. Once we've passed from socialism into global communism, only then will the threat of the fascism be permanently defeated.

[willowtooth]

communist jesus says gulag.
Are you communist Jesus, or are claiming you speak to communist Jesus? Does communist jesus ever speak back?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know if education is the key thing. No American would ever side with NAZIs if that were the case.

Also I don't think, historically, that fascists had to convince any conservatives or industrialists that worker movements were a threat -- nazis positioned themselves as the extreme solution to an existing threat of worker strikes, revolutionary attempts. There were revolts in Germany, death threats against bosses during strikes, factory occupations in Italy and the recent example of the Russian revolution. Fascists came in and said, well the police can't stop the social movements, but we have a social movement of armed thugs... so let us give it a go.

There is no organic unity among the fascist base and so totalitarianism, uniformity in other ways, and mysticism about nation or blood are employed as ways to unite a rabble of petty businessmen, professionals, college students and alienated randoms to a social movement.

The left is splintered right now because there isn't an organic worker's movement -- but the right are usually splintered also in the US prob because they have no worker or social movement large enough to be a unifying threat to them. BLM and trump-opportunism are probably what has enabled some degree of unity, but already there are frictions between the neo-nazis and the militias (militias are probably better placed to step in as an actual American fascism if shit got worse.. coz, guns, training, and often a lack of nazi or confederate baggage).

Class consciousness and militancy, the creation of a new and organic working class identity tied to class action) would be the biggest inoculation against fascism spreading and gaining support among white male workers - and it would provide the biggest physical defense.

It seems like the counter-protesters in c-ville did a good job in getting town residents on their side. I'm sure the right is embarrassed to see all the news reports where locals are interviewed as part of the counter protest while Nazis are being revealed as college students from California or Arizona.

But imagine the demoralization if business unionism did not hold sway and several hundred multi-ethnic southern workers showed up in union outfits to oppose the NAZIs in an organized and confrontational way... it would give workers a sense of strength and blow-away media and alt-right myths of the far right having the support of white workers.

The far right has been trying to build its coalition and make inroads to the "soft right" but radicals haven not been as focused on it even though we have much larger pools of potential support.

If the left does have more legitimacy after this tragedy, I think we should be sure to turn specific resistance to NAZIs into more general efforts to oppose right-wing moves (but we should distinguish when opposition means no-platform for NAZIs or when it will require a different approach for non-fascists with more generalized or centrist positions where we can not simply isolate and shut them up).


The way we fight fascists is by taking away the source of their power. We do it through education, political agitation, and the fostering of class-consciousness.

It's important to realize that fascists are, and always have been, a very small minority. The way the fascists rise to power is through the public support of non-fascists. They never gain power through revolution - always through election or appointment...then they destroy the system that brought them to power so that they will always have power. They achieve this through fear: they gain the support of the industrialists and conservatives by promoting fear of the left, and they gain the support of the masses by promoting fear of "the other" - Jews, immigrants, homosexuals, etc. Winning over the establishment is pretty easy in the correct circumstances - all you need is a powerful communist movement - but it is much harder to win over the masses (i.e "We have won power in Germany, now we must win over the German people").

Education is really the number one way to fight it. It's the only real way to fight it. There was a reason the Nazis burned books and discouraged university attendance. An ignorant populace is really and truly their life's blood.

Or were you just asking what violence to do to people under socialism? There are no firing squads in a socialist society. Reeducation facilities. Fight the rule, yes. But we don't go shooting every deluded person that we ourselves deem fascist.

It's important to understand what fascism truly is - it's something dark and evil, and something that has existed for as long as civilization has existed, and has manifested itself in many a ruler. There is a saying that societies get the leaders that they deserve. Before The Fascist Opportunist makes his appearance, the conditions have to be met. Antisemitism existed in Germany long before Hitler. And what we're seeing in America with the rise of Trump demonstrates this on a smaller scale (a black man in the white house reignited the far-right ahead of Trump). As leftists, the important thing is to keep those conditions from becoming such. This is where antifa and leftist resistance becomes vital. Once we've passed from socialism into global communism, only then will the threat of the fascism be permanently defeated.

[BIXX]

How do you fight someone who is trying to harm you, maybe they're a home invader or they're mugging you, maybe they're a queer basher, doesn't matter, you fight them till they can't fight anymore, by any means necessary.

[wehbolno]

It's important to understand what fascism truly is - it's something dark and evil, and something that has existed for as long as civilization has existed, and has manifested itself in many a ruler. There is a saying that societies get the leaders that they deserve. Before The Fascist Opportunist makes his appearance, the conditions have to be met. Antisemitism existed in Germany long before Hitler. And what we're seeing in America with the rise of Trump demonstrates this on a smaller scale (a black man in the white house reignited the far-right ahead of Trump). As leftists, the important thing is to keep those conditions from becoming such. This is where antifa and leftist resistance becomes vital. Once we've passed from socialism into global communism, only then will the threat of the fascism be permanently defeated.

I don't think fascism existed prior to industrial civilisation, since the orientation of fascists is backward with respect to the mainstream liberal world order. That is, the fascists seek to return to an 'organic' world order free from what the perceive as the corruption of some foreign external body which introduces conflict where before there was none, everybody knew their place in the social order etc. What they misinterpret as the meddling of a foreign intruder is in fact the class struggle itself, which is immanent to capitalism. Or, what perturbs the fascist is the spectre, the potential, of communism, the negation of capitalism which haunts capitalism, as embodied in the 'rootless' Bolshevik Jew (in the case of Nazism). So Nazism was more like very specifically anti-communism.

What concerns me today is that our fascism is tied to an anti-politically-correct stance which is hugely popular amongst ordinary people. They are monopolising this anti-PC sentiment in a reactionary way. May be this is naive, but doesn't the 'SJW' stand for the Jew in this context, the 'rootless' (in the sense of unbounded by idiotic national sentiment), highly intellectual (look at how the fascists in their fucking primitive way try to account for the legacy of Continental philosophy, calling it 'postmodernism', just look it up, and creating for themselves a little 'history of the SJW' and so on), hiding in the universities corrupting young minds (cultural marxist conspiracy), and controlled by puppet-masters (how George Soros secretly controls the anti-fascist movement etc.).

[AngryDwarf]

Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of capital. Appears as a reaction of the bourgeoisie to the red threat, a strong Communist party, the threat of proletarian revolution. If workers have no class consciousness because of a strong Communist party there, that means the Nazis at this point are the same outcasts as the Communists and do not pose a threat. And then the task is not to fight the Nazis, and to conduct propaganda among the workers, based on the writings of Lenin, who brought the ways of dealing with the bourgeoisie, and adapt it all to modern conditions

[willowtooth]

I don't think fascism existed prior to industrial civilisation, since the orientation of fascists is backward with respect to the mainstream liberal world order. That is, the fascists seek to return to an 'organic' world order free from what the perceive as the corruption of some foreign external body which introduces conflict where before there was none, everybody knew their place in the social order etc. What they misinterpret as the meddling of a foreign intruder is in fact the class struggle itself, which is immanent to capitalism. Or, what perturbs the fascist is the spectre, the potential, of communism, the negation of capitalism which haunts capitalism, as embodied in the 'rootless' Bolshevik Jew (in the case of Nazism). So Nazism was more like very specifically anti-communism.

What concerns me today is that our fascism is tied to an anti-politically-correct stance which is hugely popular amongst ordinary people. They are monopolising this anti-PC sentiment in a reactionary way. May be this is naive, but doesn't the 'SJW' stand for the Jew in this context, the 'rootless' (in the sense of unbounded by idiotic national sentiment), highly intellectual (look at how the fascists in their fucking primitive way try to account for the legacy of Continental philosophy, calling it 'postmodernism', just look it up, and creating for themselves a little 'history of the SJW' and so on), hiding in the universities corrupting young minds (cultural marxist conspiracy), and controlled by puppet-masters (how George Soros secretly controls the anti-fascist movement etc.).
SJW literally meant socialist jews, or soc-jews originally. A group of women's rights activists started calling themselves Social justice Warriors on social media in a positive way, most likely completely unaware of the similar acronym that was already popular in neonazi and anti-communist circles. The hilarity of this combined with the need on social media to avoid direct racial slurs and to write using as few letters as possible led to its popularity today https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

[willwinall]

Whatever we want to call them, they are human like us and have legitimate concerns and troubles. Now, we might disagree but I believe we should first understand them. "To defeat the enemy, you must know the enemy" - some dead person said this.

[AngryDwarf]

Whatever we want to call them, they are human like us and have legitimate concerns and troubles. Now, we might disagree but I believe we should first understand them. "To defeat the enemy, you must know the enemy" - some dead person said this.

What to understand them? The petty bourgeoisie with reactionary ideas, plus workers with the petty-bourgeois way of thinking exposed to such views. The petty bourgeoisie has often been reactionary. No wonder the NSDAP party called the "party of shopkeepers". Such forces are always marginal as long as the big bourgeoisie does not use the Nazis for the establishment of fascism. And it happens only when there is a red menace

[Jimmie Higgins]

Whatever we want to call them, they are human like us and have legitimate concerns and troubles. Now, we might disagree but I believe we should first understand them. "To defeat the enemy, you must know the enemy" - some dead person said this.

Troubles? Sure, even the rich have troubles in capitalism. But their concerns are illegitimate and a direct threat.

I think we do understand them -- at least we understand them better than liberals. That's why we oppose them whenever they try and crawl into the light of day.

Just Friday, the Young Turks were mocking the guy from stormer for his cartoonish sexism and urging the left to ignore them in Charlottesville because they are silly. WELL, that same nazis silly sexism celebrated the death of a "useless" woman by Nazis with fucking handmaids-tale like logic.

The first anti-nazi protest I went to was in Orange County shortly after 9/11. A guy with a confederate flag drove his van onto the sidewalk to try and hit the counter-protesters. The cops stood by and then pulled over leftists when the demo was over.

In 2006 or 07, I protested the minutemen in the Bay Area when they started picketing on a major intersection in a south Asian neighborhood. We shut them down, but one of them drove onto the sidewalk and tried to hit us but only ran over someone's foot.

Then, a couple of weeks ago, a dude on a motorcycle who runs some men's rights blog tried to run over single-payer activists in front of San Francisco city hall.

This is a snapshot of them when they are unorganized and acting spontaneously... if they organize it means war on us.

[BIXX]

This is a snapshot of them when they are unorganized and acting spontaneously... if they organize it means war on us.

The war is already here, Jim.

[Nah Revisionism]

wwmd?

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lmao, unironically this tbh

[Ele'ill]

This is a snapshot of them when they are unorganized and acting spontaneously... if they organize it means war on us.

What about all of their incremental attempts to organize and attack being put down? With the help of the State? They are organizing, they did their best at the moment with the help of the State. What exactly are you suggesting?

[Jimmie Higgins]

What about all of their incremental attempts to organize and attack being put down? With the help of the State? They are organizing, they did their best at the moment with the help of the State. What exactly are you suggesting?

BIXX, this is not war on us, not yet. They have no army yet--which is good by itself but also because workers don't have an army yet--but that's what they are/were trying to build by trying to "unite the right". They are not yet the blackshirts or the silver shirts or the KKK of the 1920s, they are not yet the US Golden Dawn.

Ele'ill, what I mean is that the far right isn't simply airing grievances for its own sake like the other poster seemed to imply. There is polarization and a right-wing "mood" among a lot of people. The alt-right white-male supremacists want to capitalize on that and organize it into a political force. So right now the alt-right can effectively organize harassment on a small scale campaign (like doxxing someone or harassing one group of strikers or leftists) and some can lash out at individuals or small groups, but I don't think they can successfully organize a campaign or violence on a larger scale--yet.

I don't think they are simply blowing off steam, they are trying to organize the internet trolls and racist random college students or middle class assholes. They want to unite the Trump supporters under an "alt" (white nationalist) right hub/ideological (if not some organizational) leadership.

[Pcgamer34]

Overthrow the goverment.

[BIXX]

BIXX, this is not war on us, not yet. They have no army yet--which is good by itself but also because workers don't have an army yet--but that's what they are/were trying to build by trying to "unite the right". They are not yet the blackshirts or the silver shirts or the KKK of the 1920s, they are not yet the US Golden Dawn.
Lmfao, so, just because they are skipping straight towards the uncoordinated attacks on racial minorities, queers, and women without the aesthetics of an army doesn't make it a war against communism?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Lmfao, so, just because they are skipping straight towards the uncoordinated attacks on racial minorities, queers, and women without the aesthetics of an army doesn't make it a war against communism?

I guess it's "war" in the same way that some guy throwing a bottle at a cop is "revolution".

"Army" is not literal in my post. If we want to make this war analogy, then it seems pretty clear that they are attempting to amass an army: win hegemony over the reactionary college-dude-trolls. Attacking the left is their sort of "propaganda of the deed" the white supremacists showing the "alt-light" that the left is a threat and that they are the only ones brave and macho enough to deal with it.

So why is this dumb semantic point worth it imo? I think that post-recession political polarization will continue but the less-bad but still crappy position of the left and dominance of liberals will mean there will probably be ups and downs for a while. We stopped the "free-speech" rallies and so they scatter and regroup. The whole "alt-right" brand might collapse or split into infighting like the minutemen or KKK of the recent past. But it's a semi-world-wide movement now and I think their momentum in the US could survive some setbacks that might have killed it in the past.

"War" in 2017 US is hyperbole even as a metaphor. What happens if the US reaches a "golden dawn" type situation? We tell everyone, "Ok, we know we said it was war a few years back... but now it's super-war!" It creates a sense of defeatism to treat skirmishes like war imo. Like some liberals thinking Trump was a literal fascist and basically giving up by Inauguration Day and talking about passive-aggressively moving to Canada.

They are trying to build an army so we need to do that as well but for a longer series of battles.