the success of marxism-leninism in laos

[Raul Castro]

the economy has improved 7% each consecutive year, poverty in the 1990s was 40% now lowered to 20% and many other successes

[jdneel]

Hasta la victoria siempre.

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[Raul Castro]

La patria o muerte!

[jdneel]

Socialismo por todos del mundo.


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[Raul Castro]

Cubanos revolucionarios entienden sus obligaciones internacionales
Cubanos revolucionarios entienden sus obligaciones internacionales

[(A)]

Hahaha that's fucking great!

All glory to the victorious Marxist Leninist's and their glorious 20% poverty rate!

Cant make this shit up thanks Raul.

[Ale Brider]

This is all great, honestly, but... this is not the point of communism? I thought that was needless to say. Such things can happen in more pure capitalist economies as well. You could become a social democrat, they would consider this truly awesome.

[Raul Castro]

yes but in social democracies workers do not own the means of production.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_Federation_of_Trade_Unions

read the entire article it is short

[jdneel]

We have also seen the social democratic policies of Roosevelt's New Deal degenerate into the Democrat's current Neo-liberal economic policies. The American working class has been sacrificed in the name of "free trade.
The Democrats are merely the second Capitalist party. Therefore participating with the Democrats is counter-revolutionary. They would never concede to worker's ownership of the means of production.

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[Homo Songun]

Hahaha that's fucking great!

All glory to the victorious Marxist Leninist's and their glorious 20% poverty rate!

Cant make this shit up thanks Raul.

I understand the little joke you are trying to make, but the reality is that poverty rates are meaningless in a vacuum. In this particular context we are talking about an impoverished ex-colony that had more bombs dropped on it by the US than the entirety all bombs dropped by anybody during World War 2. So yeah,relative to that, a 20% poverty rate is "fucking great" indeed.

Also, communism is not about ending poverty per se but about ending exploitation. The Maoist-thirdworldists are nuts but they make the valid point that even poor people today have luxuries that were unimaginable in Marx' time.

[(A)]

Also, communism is not about ending poverty per se but about ending exploitation.

And has any Marxist Leninist state ever ended wage slavery? How about the prison system?

No Marxist state has ever ended exploitation and has only ever maintained it by force. #Capitalism

[Homo Songun]

And has any Marxist Leninist state ever ended wage slavery? How about the prison system?

No Marxist state has ever ended exploitation and has only ever maintained it by force. #Capitalism


Well, we were discussing poverty rates in Laos which is a totally different kettle of fish than wage slavery or prison. It is true that Marxist-Leninists have not ended wage slavery and prisons, though, because nobody has. I do think the Marxist(-Leninist) movement went the farthest. On balance, its a legacy of struggle anybody could be proud of.

[Raul Castro]

name one thing any anarchist has ever accomplished besides getting arrested?

[jdneel]

They are pretty good at throwing bricks through windows.

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[(A)]

Well, we were discussing poverty rates in Laos which is a totally different kettle of fish than wage slavery or prison. It is true that Marxist-Leninists have not ended wage slavery and prisons, though, because nobody has. I do think the Marxist(-Leninist) movement went the farthest. On balance, its a legacy of struggle anybody could be proud of.

Considering all the Anarchist Comrades Murdered by the Bolsheviks not to mention many other Marxist Leninist groups across the worlds doing the same; No, no I am not proud of Marxist-Leninism in the least bit. Marxist-Leninism is Obsolete and simply shit. Marxists during Lenin's life knew it was shit; How can people now; after 100 years of proof otherwise; still think Marxist-Leninism is a good idea.

At this point Leninism is simply reactionary. It is a appeal to "return to the good old days" of the U.S.S.R. The U.S.S.R. was horrible; no matter how many lies have been told by the U.S. (pointlessly I might add) because the truth is worse. The truth is the death of real revolutionary's at the hands of the government and the betrayal of the working class by A social democrat who turned a honest workers movement into a totalitarian state where the workers had no control over the means.

You all gave sanders shit for running for office; but Lenin was the prime Minister of all of Russia; He stole the throne from the provisional government; he never overthrew the monarchy... he saw an empty throne and he seized it for himself and his party. He was a reformist who maintained one of the worlds largest capitalist republics. Idolizing Lenin is ridiculous & reactionary.

[Homo Songun]

Considering all the Anarchist Comrades Murdered by the Bolsheviks not to mention many other Marxist Leninist groups across the worlds doing the same; No, no I am not proud of Marxist-Leninism in the least bit. Marxist-Leninism is Obsolete and simply shit. Marxists during Lenin's life knew it was shit; How can people now; after 100 years of proof otherwise; still think Marxist-Leninism is a good idea.

At this point Leninism is simply reactionary. It is a appeal to "return to the good old days" of the U.S.S.R. The U.S.S.R. was horrible; no matter how many lies have been told by the U.S. (pointlessly I might add) because the truth is worse. The truth is the death of real revolutionary's at the hands of the government and the betrayal of the working class by A social democrat who turned a honest workers movement into a totalitarian state where the workers had no control over the means.

It is true that anarchists and Leninists have murdered each other (or otherwise behaved poorly towards each other) in the past. History is a bloody and sordid affair. But the reality is that we aren't straight-jacketed by the past. There is, was, and will be plenty of room for cooperation and solidarity with each other in the multifaceted struggle for freedom. Speaking of my own experience, my anarchist comrades and I are more likely to give each other backrubs than stab each other these days.:lol:


You all gave sanders shit for running for office; but Lenin was the prime Minister of all of Russia; He stole the throne from the provisional government; he never overthrew the monarchy... he saw an empty throne and he seized it for himself and his party. He was a reformist who maintained one of the worlds largest capitalist republics. Idolizing Lenin is ridiculous & reactionary.
If only it were that easy for commies to take over :rolleyes:

[(A)]

A comrade is someone who fights with you for your mutual goals. Leninism and Anarchism have two different goals.
Leninist's seek to create new states; Anarchists seek to abolish all states.

If you succeed in your Leninism you will become the oppressor that your "comrades" seek to abolish.

[jdneel]

I know. I know. No gods. No masters. It's not that anarchy doesn't sound good, it's that tricky part about about everyone behaving themselves when no one is watching. Anarchy is just another utopian idealism. It's simply unworkable.

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[Ale Brider]

Aaand here we are again, anarchists and MLs squabble like there's no tomorrow (or no other tendencies around).

[Raul Castro]

I like how anarchist guy hasn't mentioned something that an anarchist has accomplished besides breaking windows and being rich middle class liberals

[The Intransigent Faction]

I don't want to make a lengthy post about this since I've said the same thing in another thread (though that may be an older one now), but Homo Songun raises a valid point. I'm not a pan-leftist, either, but modern Leninist parties are "not your father's Leninism." They aren't duty-bound to follow an instruction manual, to-the-letter, that begins with storming a Winter Palace and ends with restoration of disunited profit-driven economies.

The fundamental disagreement with anarchists remains, but the conditions in which a "worker's state" would arise are different in many ways. There hasn't been a "white army" seeking to restore absolute monarchy over a large part of the world in such recent memory. Further, and more to the point, there isn't the same need for rapid industrialization as we saw it historically, with all of its harsh historical consequences.

Finally, we also have the benefit of historical hindsight. That can be use to dismiss Lenin's theory and practice entirely in some knee-jerk reflexive way, or to learn from looking at it critically. The same can be said, I suppose, for anarchist theory and practice in Spain and the Ukraine.

[(A)]

I have an entire ongoing thread dedicated to the lives and achievements of Anarchists if you care to check it out.
(http://www.revleft.com/vb/threads/196035-%E2%92%B6narchists?highlight=anarchists)
Real revolutionary's that have the tendency to be oppressed by people with your dogma.

You measure your success in number of nations under state control; we measure ours in people fighting against that control.

[jdneel]

Trotskyists definitely do not count success by by the "number of nations under state control". We 1) are internationalists and 2) believe in a permanent revolution.
The Spanish Republicans were Anarcho-syndicalist not your garden variety brick throwing, molotov cocktail lighting anarchists.

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