Alt-left

[Babeufist]

Populist and revivalist Alt-Right defeated liberal mainstream Left and hipster Left.
Therefore we need Alt-Left: classist, anti-imperialist, fighting for peoples majority (99 % against one-percenters).
We need the Old Left revival.
Base before superstructure.
No collaboration to the establishment (Clinton!).
No identity politics, genderism and cultural extravagancy.
No pseudo-revolutionary petit-bourgeoisie vanguardism.
Back to the roots!
Serve the people!

[IbelieveInanarchy]

I think a step back from identity politics would be worth considering yes.

[Gavrilo93]

Hear, hear!

Let's organize it. I will tell about this to my comrades in my country.

[perardua]

We don't need an "alt-left", we just need a left.

Other than that, this was a bunch of meaningless slogans and confused word slosh. "genderism"? "cultural extravagancy"?? "pseudo-revolutionary petit-bourgeois vanguardism"???

What do you propose instead of those, whatever they mean? That would be a good place to start.

[Ale Brider]

Considering that the alt-right is currently the most childish, edgy and distasteful manifestation of the right-wing, I think the alt-left, if such a thing existed, would be same on the left of the spectrum. We don't need /leftypol to get mainstream, that would be hell. Back to the roots?! What about, you know, moving forward instead? Are you just going to ignore literally everything that happened since the early 20th century, or what? Serve the people? This actually sounds rather elitist, don't you think? Aren't we the people? And what about this "occupy wall street-ish" 99% thing? That was the worst slogan even back then. Also, no cultural extravagancy and "genderism"? This is the naziest thing I read on a lefty forum ever. Wow. I think Zizek is right when he says we should think more and act less. (Yes, before anyone says, I know that Zizek is also critical of what you may call "genderism" and all that, but this is another discussion) These kind of things show that we definitely need that.

[willowtooth]

I despise the term the "alt-right" its nazis... thats all.... its not the 3rd way economics, its not libertarianism, or white nationalism, or any of the other slogans or nicknames they've gone under. Everyone just conforms to what they decide to call themselves. Pretty soon they'll be calling themselves "right-egalitarians" and we'll have leftists saying "we should start a left-egalitarian movement" with xyz principles.

Just call them what they are... "nazis"

[Gavrilo93]

I despise the term the "alt-right" its nazis... thats all.... its not the 3rd way economics, its not libertarianism, or white nationalism, or any of the other slogans or nicknames they've gone under. Everyone just conforms to what they decide to call themselves. Pretty soon they'll be calling themselves "right-egalitarians" and we'll have leftists saying "we should start a left-egalitarian movement" with xyz principles.

Just call them what they are... "nazis"

Actually, these groups hate nazis because they view them too left-side. What they believe in is traditionalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School

[Ale Brider]

Actually, these groups hate nazis because they view them too left-side. What they believe in is traditionalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School


I would really not claim that the alt-right people are traditionalist, first because alt-right means a bunch of things and it is pretty much heterodox (though willowtooth is right, most of them are closer to nazism than anything else), while traditionalism is mostly associated either with the new right (which is pretty much dead now) or smaller traditionalist parties (like the Traditionalist Workers' Party in the US) or pseudo-intellectual traditionalist sects (like we have Baranyi Tibor Imre in Hungary, a so-called "philosopher" with no academic background whatsoever)

[Gavrilo93]

I would really not claim that the alt-right people are traditionalist, first because alt-right means a bunch of things and it is pretty much heterodox (though willowtooth is right, most of them are closer to nazism than anything else), while traditionalism is mostly associated either with the new right (which is pretty much dead now) or smaller traditionalist parties (like the Traditionalist Workers' Party in the US) or pseudo-intellectual traditionalist sects (like we have Baranyi Tibor Imre in Hungary, a so-called "philosopher" with no academic background whatsoever)

I'm not sure. National socialists, as the name suggests are actually socialist. (Well, not really - what they believe in is a kind of state capitalism.) While traditionalists actually believe in real social darwinism, when if you are too weak you shall be destroyed. Even if you are white. Nazis wanted to provide a welfare state with good wages and prices for whites (Germans) in the expense of other nations. But these alt-right guys actually believe in a libertarian economy. All you hear is their complaining about the modern welfare state giving money to ethnic minorities and women. And as I read their forums (for which comrade willowtooth will surely want to punish me with death once again, for reading dangerous thoughs and being an enemy of the people this way) they made fun of people who praised Hitler or Nazis. They view Hitler a clown, and Nazism as a left-side ideology, which hijacks the idea of white supremacy for the "stinking working class."

Although, surely it is a diverse group, and most of these people are actually simply racists and sexists. What I talked about are those who actually have a fairly good amount of knowledge about the idelogy. The elite, if you like.

[Antiochus]

Nah. Just explore ways to more effectively kill such scum. The guy that knocked out that Richard Spencer turd deserves a medal. Hopefully next time it isn't a fist landing on his face.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Considering that the alt-right is currently the most childish, edgy and distasteful manifestation of the right-wing, I think the alt-left, if such a thing existed, would be same on the left of the spectrum. We don't need /leftypol to get mainstream, that would be hell. Back to the roots?! What about, you know, moving forward instead? Are you just going to ignore literally everything that happened since the early 20th century, or what? Serve the people? This actually sounds rather elitist, don't you think? Aren't we the people? And what about this "occupy wall street-ish" 99% thing? That was the worst slogan even back then. Also, no cultural extravagancy and "genderism"? This is the naziest thing I read on a lefty forum ever. Wow. I think Zizek is right when he says we should think more and act less. (Yes, before anyone says, I know that Zizek is also critical of what you may call "genderism" and all that, but this is another discussion) These kind of things show that we definitely need that.

Yeah really ... what are we going to do, make edgy gulag memes, put a cartoon salamander face on Stalin, and quadruple-bracket the names of suspected members of the bourgeoisie? Shit, there's enough lefty meme shit on facebook as it is, let's not use the gutter politics of the far-right. Of course, we should learn from their tactics, but mirroring them does not seem like a good idea.

[The Intransigent Faction]

You lost me at "hipster left."
The fuck is that...

"Alt-right" and "Alt-left" is really just obscurantist phraseology. Strip away the rhetoric it's all couched in for the sake of "legitimacy," and what you'll find isn't "alt". They can say they hate Nazis all they want, but their brand of traditionalist populism is at-best-repackaged reactionary ideology, not some brilliant theoretical innovation.

Anti-establishment politics are nothing new. The so-called "anti-establishment" sentiment of the right, however, is just what you get when reactionary ideology conflicts with the structural realities of capitalism. They see the solution not as an ending exploitation, which they can't conceive, but as intensifying it. Hence calls not for solidarity as a solution to capitalists exploiting immigrant labour, but for outright disregard for all but one's "fellow countrymen" (and far even from all of them).

Nazis were known for their social darwinist rhetoric and propaganda...Don't try to lend some kind of undeserved weight of intellectual uniqueness to modern fascists.

[Babeufist]

I found in the USA people who think like me https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/dealbreakers-what-the-alternative-left-is-not/

[comrada]

Populist and revivalist Alt-Right defeated liberal mainstream Left and hipster Left.
Therefore we need Alt-Left: classist, anti-imperialist, fighting for peoples majority (99 % against one-percenters).
We need the Old Left revival.
Base before superstructure.
No collaboration to the establishment (Clinton!).
No identity politics, genderism and cultural extravagancy.
No pseudo-revolutionary petit-bourgeoisie vanguardism.
Back to the roots!
Serve the people!

I'd love for you to explain why identity politics should be abandoned.
It sounds extremely reactionary to me to fight for the oppressive ruling class as opposed to for the oppressed class.
To refuse acknowledgement of the oppression of others furthers it's persistence.

[AnarchoSXE]

I'm no leftist history expert, but from what I have read, a return to roots would mean a deeper division of the left. We have made progress but we still have more leftist unity work to be done, but that means progression, not regression.

[comrada]

If you're not promoting intersectional discourse you're promoting white supremacy.

[ckaihatsu]

I'd love for you to explain why identity politics should be abandoned.
It sounds extremely reactionary to me to fight for the oppressive ruling class as opposed to for the oppressed class.
To refuse acknowledgement of the oppression of others furthers it's persistence.


These positions / principles are all *relative* to each other -- yes, identity politics (self- and identity-group-empowerment) is better than nationalism and imperialism of any kind, but it *distracts* from consciousness and activity on a *class* basis -- going for control of the 'base' by the collective working class.


[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals



http://s6.postimg.org/6omx9zh81/3_Ideologies_Operations_Fundamentals.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/cpkm723u5/full/)





I'm no leftist history expert, but from what I have read, a return to roots would mean a deeper division of the left. We have made progress but we still have more leftist unity work to be done, but that means progression, not regression.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'a return to roots' -- would that be unmitigated identity politics -- ? If so, then, yes, that would be political *balkanization* instead of finding common ground on a platform (united front) - strategies - tactics basis.





If you're not promoting intersectional discourse you're promoting white supremacy.


Yes, in the sense that multiculturalism at least cuts against white supremacism / fascism.

But we should always be ready to explain why *revolutionary* politics is *even more* historically-progressive and empowering for all compared to cultural-faction-like identity politics.





I found in the USA people who think like me https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/dealbreakers-what-the-alternative-left-is-not/


These points are fine as an authentic-progressivist politics, but note that they're not *revolutionary* as written, nor even anti-imperialist for that matter.





[W]e are disenchanted with some aspects of Left, especially the Cultural Left in the US. On those issues, we feel that the Left has gone too far.




So the Alt Left would be for people who feel that the Western Liberal-Left in governments of the West is too rightwing on economic issues but too leftwing on social issues.


This 'cultural left' / 'too leftwing on social issues' part isn't even defined in the rundown, and sounds like it's been snuck-in.

[jdneel]

What is needed first is a broad left coalition. And I don't mean the capitalist, faux left wing Feinstein neo liberal Democrats.

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[AnarchoSXE]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'a return to roots' -- would that be unmitigated identity politics -- ? If so, then, yes, that would be political *balkanization* instead of finding common ground on a platform (united front) - strategies - tactics basis..
I was commenting on what the OP said, saying I didn't agree with this 'return to roots' idea.

[ckaihatsu]

I was commenting on what the OP said, saying I didn't agree with this 'return to roots' idea.





Populist and revivalist Alt-Right defeated liberal mainstream Left and hipster Left.
Therefore we need Alt-Left: classist, anti-imperialist, fighting for peoples majority (99 % against one-percenters).
We need the Old Left revival.
Base before superstructure.
No collaboration to the establishment (Clinton!).
No identity politics, genderism and cultural extravagancy.
No pseudo-revolutionary petit-bourgeoisie vanguardism.
Back to the roots!
Serve the people!


This all sounds like *radical* politics, as distinct / different from *revolutionary* politics -- reminds me of Sanders, actually. (Note how there's nothing *international* there, as in international solidarity with the workers of the world. It's basically *nationalism* because it orients itself *rightwards*, towards *populism* -- not a workers control of social production -- and isn't calling for any kind of revolution / overthrow of the 'establishment'.)


[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals



http://s6.postimg.org/6omx9zh81/3_Ideologies_Operations_Fundamentals.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/cpkm723u5/full/)

[comrada]

Separate movements are no less effective.
White men need to learn to foreground WoC in revolutionary movements

[jdneel]

American politics is a winner take all system. The left can maintain its various factions as long as they can unite for one acceptable candidate. Perhaps they could coalesce to supplant a weaker party. This may not be the revolution but it is a start. There is a lot of criticism of Bernie Sanders (much justified) but Bernie did much to whet young people's appetite for Socialism.
Anti-fascist Anti-sexist and Anti-capitalist!

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[jdneel]

Anti-fascist, Anti-racist, Anti-sexist and anti-capitalist!

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[ckaihatsu]

Separate movements are no less effective.
White men need to learn to foreground WoC in revolutionary movements


This is a bit too much of an emphasis on identity-politics -- to *generalize*, we should be looking to politicize and inform *all* people who are certain that capitalism can't be fixed and needs to be overthrown in favor of the working class.

Yes, we can help to make up for a historical legacy of slavery and genocide by being anti-racist and smashing all glass ceilings in the context of activism, but the *politics* here isn't / shouldn't-be that of affirmative-action for its own sake, but rather should be getting everyone independent of the 2-party system.





American politics is a winner take all system. The left can maintain its various factions as long as they can unite for one acceptable candidate.


This is electoralism, and can't be justified. You're too caught-up in the internal machinations of the nation-state itself.





Perhaps they could coalesce to supplant a weaker party. This may not be the revolution but it is a start. There is a lot of criticism of Bernie Sanders (much justified) but Bernie did much to whet young people's appetite for Socialism.
Anti-fascist Anti-sexist and Anti-capitalist!

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[jdneel]

I too believe in the international socialist ideal of eventual elimination of the nation-state. However; aren't you putting the horse before the cart? Shouldn't we promote the Socialist agenda in the here and now. Socialist Alternative is actually showing some promise in showing that Socialists can actually participate (and win) in the electoral system. Theory is great but if you are expecting the proletariat to simultaneously revolt in every nation simultaneously, you are perhaps more than a tad naive.

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[jdneel]

I too believe in the international socialist ideal of eventual elimination of the nation-state. However; aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Shouldn't we promote the Socialist agenda in the here and now. Socialist Alternative is actually showing some promise in showing that Socialists can actually participate (and win) in the electoral system. Theory is great but if you are expecting the proletariat to simultaneously revolt in every nation simultaneously, you are perhaps more than a tad naive.

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This is a bit too much of an emphasis on identity-politics -- to *generalize*, we should be looking to politicize and inform *all* people who are certain that capitalism can't be fixed and needs to be overthrown in favor of the working class.

Yes, we can help to make up for a historical legacy of slavery and genocide by being anti-racist and smashing all glass ceilings in the context of activism, but the *politics* here isn't / shouldn't-be that of affirmative-action for its own sake, but rather should be getting everyone independent of the 2-party system.





This is electoralism, and can't be justified. You're too caught-up in the internal machinations of the nation-state itself.


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[ckaihatsu]

I too believe in the international socialist ideal of eventual elimination of the nation-state. However; aren't you putting the horse before the cart? Shouldn't we promote the Socialist agenda in the here and now. Socialist Alternative is actually showing some promise in showing that Socialists can actually participate (and win) in the electoral system. Theory is great but if you are expecting the proletariat to simultaneously revolt in every nation simultaneously, you are perhaps more than a tad naive.

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I'm not sectarian so if you think gains can be made through Socialist Alternative, then so be it.

Socialists participating in mainstream elections is a tactic of 'entryism' -- since I'm not in SA I'm not going to try to make a value judgment as to whether that tactic is politically worthwhile or not. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't.

I think *you're* naive if you think that a genuinely revolutionary socialist would ever be elected to the presidency of the U.S., without ignoring Debs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs).

I *don't* think that a simultaneous revolt is *likely*, though it would be a good thing if it did manage to happen that way somehow (overwhelming numbers, basically). I think a workers state would most likely be a needed transitional vehicle to de-commodify production immediately for the most humanely essential goods, and to spread the proletarian revolution to completion.

[jdneel]

I am happy to hear that you are not sectarian and are much more open-minded than I may have supposed. I apologize for labeling you naive.
I am growing old now and have seen many set backs to our cause. However; for the first time in many years I see reasons for optimism. The youth of America are much more receptive to Socialism than previous generations.
It is good that you mentioned Eugene Debs. He never even came close to claiming then White House. By the act of running, however; he stimulated interest in Socialism and educated the people on the plight of the American working class.
I do not know your age but if you are young I am happy to see you take up the red flag and keep it flying.

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[ckaihatsu]

I am happy to hear that you are not sectarian and are much more open-minded than I may have supposed. I apologize for labeling you naive.


No prob -- I've learned from my time here that it takes at least a few exchanges for participants to get up-to-speed on things with the other.





I am growing old now and have seen many set backs to our cause. However; for the first time in many years I see reasons for optimism. The youth of America are much more receptive to Socialism than previous generations.


True.





It is good that you mentioned Eugene Debs. He never even came close to claiming then White House. By the act of running, however; he stimulated interest in Socialism and educated the people on the plight of the American working class.
I do not know your age but if you are young I am happy to see you take up the red flag and keep it flying.

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Thanks -- I'm 'middle-aged', 44, as seen at my profile page.

Feel free to continue with this or other topics as well. Take care, later.

[ckaihatsu]

Btw, re: Sanders...


The Democratic Party is complicit in the anti-immigrant crackdown. Obama deported 2.7 million people, earning the epithet “Deporter-in-Chief.” He expanded the police state infrastructure that now falls into the hands of Trump.

Appearing on “Meet the Press” immediately following Stephen Miller, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders offered not a word of criticism of the roundup and deportation of undocumented workers. Asked directly by moderator Chuck Todd about the anti-immigrant measures and the anti-Muslim travel ban, Sanders replied, “Well, I think that the vetting mechanisms we have now are very, very strong. If anybody has an idea as to how we can make them stronger, let’s go forward.”

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/02/13/immi-f13.html

[ckaihatsu]

I am growing old now




It is good that you mentioned Eugene Debs.


You used to change his diapers, huh -- ?


x D

[jdneel]

Not that old!

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