The Movement for Black Lives Platform

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Has anybody else here read this platform that was created by the coming together of 50 different organizations to create a clearer vision for BLM going forward? It has some proposals like the government financing black worker cooperatives and aiding in creating a network of cooperatives in the economy, free education, public financing of elections, guaranteed basic income, and has some choice words about capitalism(although it never just calls it capitalism instead referring it to "racialized" capitalism, "exploitative" capitalism, "global" capitalism).

https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/

What are people's thoughts on this moving forward in the movement?

[Eastman]

I think it would be fantastic if they actually desire and wish to pursue the above goals for all people. That said, little I have seen regarding BLM gives me confidence that they operate out of benevolence. On the contrary, they seem as driven by racism, prejudice and anger as those cultures they claim to oppose. Is it a genuine statement of their vision, or is it an effort to create a thoughtful mask for their actual agenda? I suppose time will tell.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Really? What do you think their actual racist agenda is and what leads you to believe that they're driven by racism?

[Eastman]

There's a decent article by Derryck Green at the website nationalcenter .org that sums up my concerns about the movement's singe-mindedness. I'd post a link, but am not allowed to.

In summary, BLM ignores the great harm done to black people by other black people and focuses solely on the crimes perpetrated against them by whites. I've seen BLM members make blanket statements about how "all whites are responsible." I've never bought into declarations that everyone in a group must answer for the actions of a few. I think the first time I was faced with such a declaration was when an angry African-Canadian woman informed me that, as a white person, I should feel guilty and responsible for slavery. Never mind that Canada was a destination for escaped slaves, or that my ancestors were subsistence farming in Northern Ireland when slavery was taking place. My skin was white, so I was guilty. When I tried to defend myself, she became indignant. How *dare* I question a black person, she seemed to be saying.

Attitudes like that make me question any movement that makes blanket statements while ignoring curious data.

[(A)]

Well your problem East man is that you are reading and agreeing with Right-wing think tanks... do you get your economic theory from the Cato Institute?

Black on black crime is a symptom of the subjugation, segregation and supremacist policy's of the state.

Check your sources before you read.

[John Nada]

There's a decent article by Derryck Green at the website nationalcenter .org that sums up my concerns about the movement's singe-mindedness. I'd post a link, but am not allowed to.That site's reactionary, and Green is a anti-choice reactionary that "teaches" for that islamophobic fake "university" Prager. Why should anyone give a fuck what some rightist compradors think? Black cover for racism, that's all it is.:glare:
In summary, BLM ignores the great harm done to black people by other black people and focuses solely on the crimes perpetrated against them by whites. I've seen BLM members make blanket statements about how "all whites are responsible." I've never bought into declarations that everyone in a group must answer for the actions of a few. I think the first time I was faced with such a declaration was when an angry African-Canadian woman informed me that, as a white person, I should feel guilty and responsible for slavery. Never mind that Canada was a destination for escaped slaves, or that my ancestors were subsistence farming in Northern Ireland when slavery was taking place. My skin was white, so I was guilty. When I tried to defend myself, she became indignant. How *dare* I question a black person, she seemed to be saying.That's a strawperson true only in the minds of reactionaries. Protesting police violence doesn't exclude all else. BLM has protested crime within the Black community too. That's a lie.

And none of this shit is ancient history only in the southern US. Canada to this day oppress and superexploiting First Nations and Black people, as well as oppressing and superexploiting 3rd world nations . Euro-North Americans have benefited from it, via white privilege and a share of the imperialist superprofits. And judging by you're preferred source of info, you are a conscious partisan on the side of the oppressor. You "guilty" not because you're white, but because you have throw your lot in with the bigots.
Attitudes like that make me question any movement that makes blanket statements while ignoring curious data.Sorry Black people's "attitude" towards getting shot by the state hurts your feelings.:rolleyes: Fuck off!

[(A)]

IF anything BLM will help reduce crime within the black community.
A rallying voice to unify the disenfranchised against their oppressors. To say that Black lives matter does not just mean that they matter in relation to the police but that they need to matter to other
members of the black community. When they say Black lives matter they are not just telling White people; they are re-affirming that to themselves and their community's as well.

[GLF]

That site's reactionary, and Green is a anti-choice reactionary that "teaches" for that islamophobic fake "university" Prager. Why should anyone give a fuck what some rightist compradors think? Black cover for racism, that's all it is.:glare:That's a strawperson true only in the minds of reactionaries. Protesting police violence doesn't exclude all else. BLM has protested crime within the Black community too. That's a lie.

And none of this shit is ancient history only in the southern US. Canada to this day oppress and superexploiting First Nations and Black people, as well as oppressing and superexploiting 3rd world nations . Euro-North Americans have benefited from it, via white privilege and a share of the imperialist superprofits. And judging by you're preferred source of info, you are a conscious partisan on the side of the oppressor. You "guilty" not because you're white, but because you have throw your lot in with the bigots.Sorry Black people's "attitude" towards getting shot by the state hurts your feelings.:rolleyes: Fuck off!

Centre-left, identity politics laden bullshit of the highest order. I can show you white people living out in the sticks that haven't benefited from jack shit, and on the flip side, black people living lives of luxury. Yes, racism exists along with a lot of other bad shit - all products of capitalism. The focus shouldn't be on the symptoms but on the root cause and cure; strike down capitalism and a lot of these problems fix themselves.

Identity politics, BLM, "privilege" theories and a host of other centre-left garbage work counter to communism in the interest of capitalistic reform. It's all garbage, and not only because poor people of every color are in the same situation, but because it serves only to foster division among the ranks of working class people. There is no question that some demographics are affected more than others. But all affected are affected; regardless of how many or what color they are, they are all victims. And the culprit is not some white monolith that doesn't even exist. It's capitalism. Plain and simple.

God damned revisionist fucks. Workers of the world, unite. Peddlers of identity politics are the enemy of working class people.

[(A)]

So instead of supporting our working class brothers and sisters lets bad mouth them for being concerned with their lives and immediate safty and sit here on our computers while they are out their fighting the system of oppression.

Or alternatively we can support their struggles and help them Arm and Organize with other revolutionary movements so that they actually can make a real difference beyond burning down a few
cop cars and a gas station (Milwaukee today).

Workers of the world unite!

As in... Work together for our common cause.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

There's a decent article by Derryck Green at the website nationalcenter .org that sums up my concerns about the movement's singe-mindedness. I'd post a link, but am not allowed to.Wow I can't believe you would cite a website like that, it's completely insane. Just look at these headlines:"The Republican Party Is About White Lives Making Black Lives Matter", "U.S. Justice Department Report on Baltimore Policing: "Evidence of a Vindictive, Politically-Motivated Obama DOJ," Says Project 21's Joe Hicks", "President Obama Should Resign and Apologize to Law Enforcement," Says Project 21's Council Nell." That organization believes in "shareholder activism" where they go to meetings of some of the richest people in the world telling them that the barbarian hordes of workers are at the gates demanding higher wages but that they need to resist doing this because it will cut into their investments! What kind of shit are you reading? This is the kind of opinions you listen to? Literal spokespeople for everything that communists fight against but I'm supposed to take these people seriously and give their talking points respect? You've got to be shitting me. The Department of Justice looks into the Baltimore Police Department and finds egregious abuse by the police(Which included things like pigs planting drugs and raping prostitutes) and this site tries to distract you from all of these facts by saying it's just politically motivated nonsense that we need to sweep under the rug. Racist police aren't a problem, black people/leftist activists just like complaining. This is the garbage you want me to read? You should read their articles talking about how they've had great victories at shareholder meetings defeating "liberals" at these meetings who don't want their shares to go to groups like ALEC who then writes up pro-business laws for the government to pass, they're fucking fantastic! The fact that you would direct me towards attitudes like these makes me question if you're not ignoring a whole shitload of curious data.


In summary, BLM ignores the great harm done to black people by other black people and focuses solely on the crimes perpetrated against them by whites. I've seen BLM members make blanket statements about how "all whites are responsible." I've never bought into declarations that everyone in a group must answer for the actions of a few. I think the first time I was faced with such a declaration was when an angry African-Canadian woman informed me that, as a white person, I should feel guilty and responsible for slavery. Never mind that Canada was a destination for escaped slaves, or that my ancestors were subsistence farming in Northern Ireland when slavery was taking place. My skin was white, so I was guilty. When I tried to defend myself, she became indignant. How *dare* I question a black person, she seemed to be saying.

Attitudes like that make me question any movement that makes blanket statements while ignoring curious data.
What kind of fucking nonsense is this? Did you even read the platform? You have a platform made by many leaders in the movement that pushes for policy changes that they think will help in their struggle against poverty and racism and your response to it is "but what about black on black crime!" You've never bought into declarations that everyone in a group must answer for the actions of a few yet you're telling people who are tired of being harassed, beaten, shot, set up, raped, and politically repressed by the state that you won't listen to them until they stop killing each other as if they're all criminals shooting each other in the streets who once in a while take time out of their day to hate on white people. Are you fucking dense? Who do you think gets most effected by black on black crime? Black people who have to deal with their brothers and sisters being killed in their neighborhoods, not the white people haranguing them to stop killing each other(while not saying a word about white on white crime)You've never bought into these "declarations" but don't mind taking one example out of your life and generalizing it over a whole group of people but you can't even see yourself doing it yourself right now! You've seen people in BLM say things you don't particularly believe(and so have I) and then completely write them all off as racists which is stupid on your part. How many times should I have stopped being a communist because of all the shit people who call themselves communists have said in the past? This is like people who are racist because one time they got bullied by someone from a different race and generalized their experience to all of the people from that race. I'm talking about a platform put forward by leaders who are trying to push the movement in a direction which I would like to discuss and you're talking about black on black crime like an idiot.

[John Nada]

Centre-left, identity politics laden bullshit of the highest order. I can show you white people living out in the sticks that haven't benefited from jack shit, and on the flip side, black people living lives of luxury. Yes, racism exists along with a lot of other bad shit - all products of capitalism. The focus shouldn't be on the symptoms but on the root cause and cure; strike down capitalism and a lot of these problems fix themselves.Economistic opportunism of the highest order. You don't know what the fuck identity politics is. Was Lenin practicing identity politics when he supported the struggles of oppressed nations(including African-Americans), or any other democratic struggle? Was Marx, Engels and Lenin "checking privileges" when they pointed out the detrimental effects of imperialism and its corresponding ideology, racism and national chauvinism, on the workers of oppressor nations(not superexploited but still exploit and can be a revolution class for itself), and blocking the socialist revolution? This economistic "oh socialism will take care of all that, don't bother bro" would be completely foreign to them. It is opportunism that denies the proletariat it's historic mission to liberate humanity. And Lenin dedicated much time to combat economism, its modern incarnations being not just identity politics but class reductionism and essentialism.

Fact is there is progressive democratic struggles against capitalists oppression among the masses, which the proletariat must take up as its own. Fighting imperialism and white supremacy is a blow to imperialist-capitalism and will strengthen the proletariat, including the Euro-American proletariat. Saying that it's "irrelevant" or "it divides the working class"(which was always divided) plays into the hands of the bourgeois liberals, creating an identity politics of another type. It surrenders terrain to the liberals, who won't help the proletariat or the oppressed masses at large. Sticking purely to spontaneous trade unionism, like the economistic class reductionist demand, is opportunism that hurts all of the proletariat.
Identity politics, BLM, "privilege" theories and a host of other centre-left garbage work counter to communism in the interest of capitalistic reform. It's all garbage, and not only because poor people of every color are in the same situation, but because it serves only to foster division among the ranks of working class people. There is no question that some demographics are affected more than others. But all affected are affected; regardless of how many or what color they are, they are all victims. And the culprit is not some white monolith that doesn't even exist. It's capitalism. Plain and simple.
The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of “its” workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million. And how this little sop is divided among the labour ministers, “labour representatives” (remember Engels’s splendid analysis of the term), labour members of War Industries Committees,[5] labour officials, workers belonging to the narrow craft unions, office employees, etc., etc., is a secondary question. Imperialism is real (https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/oct/x01.htm). The working class was already divide since the dawn of capitalism (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch31.htm). Capitalism was born in racist colonialism. It's part of the capitalist base, from which racism and chauvinism emerge in the superstructure.

Imperialism was able to "buy off" section of the working class of imperialist nations to divert them away from revolution. It is a fact that oppressed peoples get paid less and face oppression that the people of dominate nations do not. That the Euro-Americans petit-bourgeoisie does gain benefits from imperialist superexploitation in the form of superprofits, and that even the Euro-American proletariat is merely exploited as opposed to superexploited, is blocking the path to socialist revolution more than identity politics ever could. And now we see a resurgence of reaction from the white American petit-bourgeoisie's re-proletarianization, gasping for the post-WWII privileges, in the form of reactionaries like Trump.

A revolution in the US cannot happen if racism, patriarchy, and chauvinism isn't combated. I say that speaking to workers. Fucking talk to real workers, this fucking racist bullshit is seriously fucking up their ability to be a class for itself.
God damned revisionist fucks. Workers of the world, unite. Peddlers of identity politics are the enemy of working class people.Economism, including class reductionism, is a detrimental to the workers both among oppressed peoples and the dominate groups. Tailing the most backwards sections of the petit-bourgeoisie goes against the working class. It is a equally grave revisionism to liberal identity politics. It denies the proletariat's role as the "vanguard of the people". "Workers and oppressed peoples of the world, Unite!"

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

. . . poor people of every color are in the same situation. . .

I'm singling out this statement, because it sums up nicely how unmaterialist your analysis is. Start by looking at incarceration rates. Black people in the United States are still massively enslaved within the prison industrial complex in a way that is entirely untrue for white folk. Look at stats on police violence proportional to population while you're at it. Without even starting to look at the concrete history of white supremacy, a simple investigation into current numbers demonstrates how totally wrong you are.

Until you actually dig into the concrete questions of how the working class is composed, any "communist" project you attempt is going to end up being another middle class student clique.

[GLF]

A revolution in the US cannot happen if racism, patriarchy, and chauvinism isn't combated.

And just who is combating it? Just who is it that's combating it? This is important because it's my whole entire point. Who is combating and what are their methods for combating it? Answer that one for me.


...Start by looking at incarceration rates. Black people in the United States are still massively enslaved within the prison industrial complex in a way that is entirely untrue for white folk. Why do we see black people? Even if those getting hammered by the pigs are 90% black and only 10% white, I still see nothing but workers. Change the ratio anyway you want, and the end result is human suffering, regardless of skin color. I don't see "mostly blacks" in ghettos and prisons - I see victims of capitalism. I honestly don't care what the ratio of suffering happens to be as it pertains to skin color. I literally don't give two shits. A victim of capitalism is a victim of capitalism. In fact, it's because of capitalism that we consider "race" to begin with.

The problem is that black people are uniquely looked down upon, and uniquely persecuted. The way to handle this is to educate people on just why this happens to be, and what we can do to strike at the heart of the problem - along with all the other problems brought on by capitalism, which are every bit as important as the aforementioned one. One thing I do know is that it's stupid to go around teaching all the white proles how much better they have it. Believe me - big mistake. It creates a fucking reactionary making machine like you've never seen before.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

And just who is combating it? Just who is it that's combating it? This is important because it's my whole entire point. Who is combating and what are their methods for combating it? Answer that one for me.
Well it would seem like the platform I just provided you a link to would provide you with that answer. I specifically made this thread so we could talk about the actual platform that has been put forward by the Movement for Black Lives. No one has yet to say a word about it, I doubt you took two seconds to look at the platform before you started responding to people in this thread. It's not like I think it's all correct, I'd give it some of my own criticism but wanted to see what other people thought of it first and have an actual discussion about it but instead you come in here asking questions about who is combating it and how they're trying to do it. Hey that's the whole entire point of the thread, let's actually talk about it! But no you'd rather ignore ways that largely under-class black people are organizing themselves against the militarized police state, poverty, racism, and would like to tell them that they need to unite with you! Why in the fuck would they do that when you won't even take two seconds out of your busy day to look at their platform and see how it can connect with struggles you're involved in. Maybe you would read the platform and think it needs to be scrapped altogether but we'll never know because you can't look at what they're saying here and subject it to criticism yourself, you just ignore it and smear them all with being obsessed about identity politics. Wow what deep criticism, please bless us with some more of your wisdom.

Why do we see black people? Even if those getting hammered by the pigs are 90% black and only 10% white, I still see nothing but workers.
Change the ratio anyway you want, and the end result is human suffering, regardless of skin color. I don't see "mostly blacks" in ghettos and prisons - I see victims of capitalism. I honestly don't care what the ratio of suffering happens to be as it pertains to skin color.Why do we see black people? How stupid is this question, we see black people because there are people with darker skin than us. What needs to be questioned is how we've come about through social processes to see black people in this or that light. The problem isn't that we see black people, the problem is seeing black people and immediately assuming they're a dangerous savage criminal who can't be trusted to do anything except clean the shit off of toilets and work in the fields. Thinking like this doesn't come out of the blue, these attitudes are socially constructed through history and you seem to ignore all of this history. Plus it doesn't matter what you see or don't see in relation to black people because you are not the authority figures who see different things than you when they're out on patrol.


I literally don't give two shits. A victim of capitalism is a victim of capitalism. In fact, it's because of capitalism that we consider "race" to begin with.Race as a concept existed before capitalism.


The problem is that black people are uniquely looked down upon, and uniquely persecuted.So you go from not seeing race to seeing race as quick as it takes to flip a light switch on and off.


The way to handle this is to educate people on just why this happens to be, and what we can do to strike at the heart of the problem - along with all the other problems brought on by capitalism, which are every bit as important as the aforementioned one. One thing I do know is that it's stupid to go around teaching all the white proles how much better they have it. Believe me - big mistake. It creates a fucking reactionary making machine like you've never seen before.Yet you provide us with nothing to work with yourself and are too stupid to realize the Movement for Black Lives are making demands towards the white power structure in our society which actually hurts white working class people and makes us even more unequal with the capitalists. Maybe there would be less of a need for black people to organize themselves on the basis of race if every time a black person was shot by the police large amounts of white people didn't think it's justified and just say "black on black crime" like Eastman just did. You say people need an education on why this happens when many white people don't even believe black people when they talk about the treatment they get by police.

Maybe you need some education yourself. You act like I'm some rich kid who knows nothing about the struggles of the working class yet even though I'm "out in the sticks" with no money and have grown up this way yet even I can easily see the different ways I've benefited from my skin tone. I went through the "justice" system as a kid and they treated me with kids gloves because I was a white guy in a Latino gang. I didn't belong there supposedly because of my race so I could be saved unlike my Mexican homies who have only had punitive justice doled out towards them. The judge was really nice, talked about how I just fell in with the wrong crowd and that she didn't think I should get expelled from school because the one-strike policy "wasn't made for people" like me aka white kids that fell into the wrong crowd of people. Who was it made for? Look at the numbers and you realize who it was made for. I got expelled for a year of high school going from a majority white school to a school where there were only two other white guys in my class. I got kicked out of school for beating the shit out of somebody while others were there for things like getting caught with their cell phones and such and they weren't getting speeches from the authorities about how they wish they didn't have to expel them, they dropped the hammer on them to teach them discipline and how to be a good citizen in our capitalist society. So don't fucking come here telling people they need an education if you're not willing to get a little educated yourself and justify ignoring the facts of the matter because it makes you feel uncomfortable that there are other white people that "see race" and that you might benefit from their racism because they see you as better than the Other.

[GLF]

Race as a concept existed before capitalism.

Are you out of your fucking mind? Race is a social construct that in no way predates class based societies. It's probably the single largest social institution used to keep the classes in check. In fact, the current manifestation of "race" has only existed about 500 years, from about the height of the slave trade.

The whole problem with your post, and the centre-left bourgeois way of dealing with race in general, is that it's all about numbers and discrepancies. The solutions to these racial problems seem to always lie in vulgar statistics: a more fair distribution of capital along RACIAL lines rather than class lines. It perpetuates a competing form of collectivism that can in no way exist alongside communism. And it always names the wrong enemy.

Racism exists and should be countered. And I don't have a problem with the BLM platform because it challenges the police state which is always good as far as I'm concerned. But some of the theory behind the platform is wonky and in no way compatible with our movement. It's useful, even needed. But it's not desirable.

[willowtooth]

The "movement for black lives" or M4BL has not had a major influence in BLM protests as of yet. Even the 50 so called endorsing groups are largely unrelated, and in many ways represent conflicting ideologies, and in some cases aren't made up of more than a single lawyer and their facebook pages with less than 100 views. Many don't have websites, much less make up a large part of the protesters. This might be behind the reason why they use words such as "exploitative" in front of the word capitalism. Rather than say they stand against capitalism outright. Which they dont, the majority of protesters wouldn't say that they are against capitalism or for socialism much less anarchism or communism. These are anti-racist protests, the fight for the abolition of racism pre-dates communist/socialist thought, and doesn't need it to continue.

Just like the fight to end the slave trade in the US did not need the communist manifesto to progress. Therefore trying to hijack this movement in the name of one ideology or the other it would only lead to adding to the internal conflicts that are well represented, from groups like the Nbpp, the black isrealites, the NOI, and black churches which have always held a large influence over the african american community. If you took a poll of how many African Americans support communism it would be in the single digits. The accusation that every abolitionist or anti racists is a "secret communist" was used so frequently in America, that the concept was used on reward posters designed trick black people into turning civil rights workers into the klan for a lynching. This concept was used to persecute any kind of black civil rights group from cointelpro, to McCarthyism to jim crow. So why would you spend time motivating the people who would benefit the most from communism into supporting it? When they outright hate it, and would liken it to devil worship or nazism? When you could address the class that benefits from capitalism.

A class that exists throughout the world, as we are seeing the BLM slogan being used in Brazil, Canada, the UK, Germany, Australia, Israel, Amsterdam, Japan, France, India, and more. We see how the slogan is resonating internationally, and the hostility represented by reactionaries who spout counter-slogans like "all lives matter", "white lives matter", "blue lives matter" either makes their ignorance of racism apparent especially amongst the centre-left, but makes the inherently fascist political movements all the more obvious. Its just clever wordplay, but its powerful. The founder of the movement is whoever randomly showed up to a treyvon martin protest and first screamed it as a chant over a bullhorn. It is a manifestation of not just black oppression in America but all forms of racial, tribal, religious, and ethnic oppression felt around the world, as racism largely evolved (not created) by the benefactors north atlantic slave trade, black people have largely been seen as the lowest class and therefore have come to universally symbolize the lowest caste, even in africa where tribalism or clanism is still rampant, and this slogan can be used there, to not only represent oppressed tribal groups like the Bantu or Tswana, but also to end the still very real white supremacist post colonial oppression from Europeans that still exists today

With that said, lets address the platform and the list of demands. The platform itself doesn't say much, past some flowery rhetoric, and using the words like "black" or "exploitative" in front of issues that many people already have strong opinions about. Its vague and poorly written, enough to be considered more of a poem than an actual supportable political platform. Do they support LGBT rights or just Black LGBT rights? Do they stand against capitalism or just exploitative capitalism? These would be the immediate reactionary denunciation of this platform in any serious political context.

The demands are flawed as well, the "end the war on black people" section should be where the list begins and ends. Since these are problems that can be resolved in court, problems that many people (including people of color) don't know exist or how they effect the black community more than others. It then goes on to the concept of reparations which is an almost impossible concept in practice much less theory, because of the difficulty in establishing who is and isn't a slave descendant. Then goes into "investment and divestment" and economic concerns which are just vague amalgamations of various leftist programs like universal healthcare, universal college education, massive cuts in military expenditures, and even a reduction in the use of fossil fuels. All are widely supported positions which have large amounts of supporters in most major political parties in every country, and have almost nothing to do with racism "past the poverty line" and if they do want to make one of those topics a central focus of their demands, they should do so and in detail, instead of just being lazily shoved in at the bottom of the list.'

If M4BL wants to be an anti-racist organization it cant be focused on things like ending the usage of fossil fuels or cutting funding to the military. The economics section gets even more strange as it supports things like glass steagal and denouncing the TPP. These are headline/tabloid issues and are extremely complicated and again show how may conflicting groups were represented when they created this list. The demands in the "political power" section include things like net neutrality and abolishing super PACS. I really don't know what net neutrality laws have to do with any anti-racist organization but I doubt you would see much support for that cause amongst the actual protesters. I dont think M4BL should be taken too seriously or be given any type of credit for the BLM protests. It does show how desperate people are to co-opt these protests for there own political purposes and we shouldn't attempt to do the same

So what we should do as revolutionary leftists is allow them to progress and show solidarity with them, as we would with any inherently anti-racist protesters.

[(A)]

Location; even if your claims about race are correct your conclusion is still flawed. That BLM and the M4BL should not focus on the Immediate and ever present danger of a exploitative system that is particularly harsh against Black lives.
Capitalism is not the Sum of all of our problems.
If communism is a Stateless, classless and Money-less society then we must address all three.

The state must be destroyed and never reconstituted
Classes (State and non-state based hierarchy) must cease to exist within all community's
The use of currency and Property must be ended and a new system of material distribution put into action.

Not everyone is as woke as you think you are. Not everyone is subject only the the oppression of Capital. If you think that you may be privileged.
Are you homosexual or a Minority? Do people want to kill you because of your skin or sexual orientation?

If so then you know that Capitalism is just one way that you are being discriminated by. Maybe the cops target practice using pictures of your people. Fanatics of all kinds may be wanting to gun you down.
Your boss stealing half your shit is the last thing you are worried about when you could very well be gunned down for nothing tomorrow.

Workers of the world unite! does not mean that all Workers are being equally exploited...
It means even if you are a white twenty something from america you need to support and fight with ALL workers and recognize their individual struggles.

[GLF]

I'm homosexual and have Jewish ancestors. And yes, I know that statistically some demographics have it better by default, including my own (whites, not Jews). But I also know that there is substantial overlap, and that all we accomplish with identity politics is the division of the proles and the provoking of reactionaries.

I also respectfully disagree with your statement on capitalism. All social institutions and economic injustices are wrought in the interest of maintaining ruling class hegemony. All of them. We need class conscious workers more so than racially awakened workers. I believe we should speak out against the fruits of capitalism, but only when naming the true culprit and only towards working class revolution. Let's face it, those on the front lines fighting against the various oppressive injustices of our time are not doing so in the hope of overthrowing the ruling classes. These people are merely looking for fair play within capitalism; they are not revolutionaries.

I don't think they're useful (the centre-left). Sorry.

[(A)]

The bourgeois; the land owning class who we must sell our labor to to survive.

Saying that the only interest that the state has is the protection of the ruling class excludes the fact that the state is the largest single land owning enterprise.
Because at the end of the day... you only own land because the state says you do. Your "ownership" of land is granted by the Nation because it is the nation that owns the land.

The state is capitalist itself. The largest richest capitalists in the worlds are Nations and their CEO's the heads of state.
Beyond this the state; like the feudal lords of old own a monopoly of violence that they use to maintain their property.

You fear the owners of MacDonald's who steals the labor of its workers and forces them to wear uniforms.
I fear the owner of the state who demands a cut of our labor by threat of imprisonment, slavery and even death.

The state is the bourgeois.

So when we have people improvised, abused and enslaved by the bourgeois; you turn your backs on them because they are more afraid of the state capitalist then the private capitalist.

Workers of the world, dont unite; just shit post each other until you are all incapable of fighting back?

Every workers movement should be against the state capitalist as much if not more then the Provate capitalist as the private capitalists ownership is derived from the states dominion over the land.

[GLF]

There is no such thing as "private capitalists", sir. You're differentiating between the the bourgeois State and the bourgeoisie and do so in error. The State is the apparatus of ruling class hegemony and there is no separation to be made. It's like making a distinction between an executioner and his axe. What sense does that make?

Also, can you please clarify just what you mean by this in particular:


Maybe the cops target practice using pictures of your people.

My people, according to most, would be the German Americans. Racialists would say that "my people" are whites. Both of these ideas are problematic from a communist standpoint because the idea of "a people" is a social institution implemented by the capitalists; just as the dynastic family, the church, and the idea of ownership are rejected by communists, so should the idea of "a people".

Perhaps you are meaning it from the perspective of "nationalism of the oppressed"? I don't believe fighting fire with fire is profitable, sir, particularly when all we're doing these days is parroting centre-left talking points. In any case, I would be interested in hearing your ideas on the concept of "a people".

[(A)]

Cops in Florida have been caught using mugshots of African Americans for target practice.
When I made that statement I was using it to explain how your whiteness is a privilege that other working class people do not have.

Individuals who own company's are not a threat to the movement or our lives directly. What MacDonald's shareholder are you going to hunt down for what?

The state is the oppressor and the owner of land. ALL land in a country is controlled by the state. Even if they disseminate "property rights" to a person it does not make that person a physical threat.
The power of the ruling class is concentrated in the state.

The state owns all land.
The state indoctrinates the youth.
The state imposes its laws with the use of military force.
The state conducts wars for its nationalist interests (Imperialism)
The state restricts what medicines you can take and decides what chemicals you ingest.

Capitalists steal the product of your labor.
Capitalists indoctrinate you to use their product.
Capitalists dictate your actions inside the work place (and to a smaller extent outside)

To me it is clear that the state is the real threat. Abolish the state and the capitalist wont have the means to defend himself from our wrath.

[GLF]

I understand what you are saying, and I want to make it clear that I do agree with you on a lot of points, particularly that people who are called white have it better statistically than people who are called black. I also do not contest the fact that the primary cause is racism and inequality of opportunity. And I can see where many might suggest that because people of color are uniquely affected, their plight should be uniquely focused upon in the overall class struggle. My point is that it's not communists or even anti-capitalists leading these struggles. These are, by and large, social democrats peddling a form of identity politics aimed at heightening racial consciousness towards the forcing of capitalistic reform. These are solutions that get us nowhere, and in fact, reforms that if enacted would actually relieve working class agitation, therefore serving as a retardant in our sacred struggle to overthrow the State.

My solution is for communists to take to the front lines, creating alliances between people of color and white working class people. To educate these people on who the enemy is and why white supremacy exists. And above all, to make the fight about the overthrow of capitalism for all working class people rather than simply making capitalism a touch more cozy for one race of people. The single biggest obstacle to the emaciation of the workers is the white working class. This demographic is utterly rife with reactionism and outright fascism. The identity politics of the centre-left only makes it worse. It's not the intellectuals standing in the way of equality. It's not the petty bourgeoisie. It's the vast white lumpenproletariat created by a reckless centreleft emphasizing racial loyalty over class loyalty. We should not ignore racism or the plight of people of color. But as communists we have absolutely NO SAY on these matters because we're not on the front lines. We've given up too much ground.

As for the State being the "real threat", rather than the capitalists, I think you're way off base. There is no distinction to be made between the State and the capitalists. No distinction at all - it's symbiosis. You cannot go after the State without first going after those who control it. When you are in a gunfight you aim for the man holding the gun, not the gun itself. The State, when removed from it's capitalist controllers, simply no longer exists.

[(A)]

Your assuming that capitalists are the ones holding the gun.
The state is the Power; the capitalist is just a symptom of the Liberalist economics of the state.
Capitalism has some power over the state; but not nearly as much as you think. If the capitalist decides not to pay taxes the state will arrest him.
he capitalist can influence the state but does not control it directly.

I agree that we need to be on the front lines... that's why bashing working class movements is anti-communist and against the simple idea of the phrase
Workers of the world unite!

we must unite with Black lives matter and other working class struggles against the state.
Influence them to greater revolutionary action by cooperation; not critique.
In this day and age no one can handle critique.
We must join in their cause so that they will join in ours.
Wave the Black and Red flag of Anarchism and Communism.
Oppose the state and its authority together. Cast off our chains.

[GLF]

I respectfully disagree with you on the relationship between capitalism and State power, but I do agree with many of the other points I've seen you make on this forum, and of course I agree that we should unite with BLM. We have slightly different methodologies in our ideological approach but the overall sentiment seems to be the same: smash the State, end inequality and racism.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I'm homosexual and have Jewish ancestors. And yes, I know that statistically some demographics have it better by default, including my own (whites, not Jews). But I also know that there is substantial overlap, and that all we accomplish with identity politics is the division of the proles and the provoking of reactionaries.

I think, in this regard, we need to draw a sharp line between a liberal identity politics that is divorced from an emancipatory, anticapitalist project on one hand, and, on the other developing a properly historical grasp of class composition that grapples with the material character of race/racialization (as well as other "identities" - gender, etc.).


I also respectfully disagree with your statement on capitalism. All social institutions and economic injustices are wrought in the interest of maintaining ruling class hegemony. All of them. We need class conscious workers more so than racially awakened workers.

I think that this statement really gets at an important disconnect - the proposed distinction (between class consciousness and "racial awakening") is precisely the terrain of liberal identity politics, in which the historical constitution of race and class is missed. The thing is, we can't have truly class conscious workers unless those workers are "awakened" to the fundamental interconnections of class and race. Trying to understand the working class without understanding racialization as a process by which class is "marked" creates the lopsided labour-aristocratic consciousness, where, for example, the class character of Black-led anti-police struggles gets missed (and white workers line up behind the bourgeoisie in denouncing "anti-white racism").


I believe we should speak out against the fruits of capitalism, but only when naming the true culprit and only towards working class revolution. Let's face it, those on the front lines fighting against the various oppressive injustices of our time are not doing so in the hope of overthrowing the ruling classes. These people are merely looking for fair play within capitalism; they are not revolutionaries.

OK! So, let's think strategically for a minute: How do we move from "bread and butter" (or, rather, "bread and butter and not-being-enslaved-within-the-prison-industrial-complex") struggles to revolutionary anticapitalist struggles? Do we denounce them? Do you habitually cross picket lines because workers are "merely looking for fair play within capitalism"? No! No! No! I can not be emphatic enough in saying "No!" We need to look at these struggles in terms of how they affect the recomposition of the class, how they improve the capacity of the class within the class struggle, and how they can point beyond capitalism.

In the American context, the prison industrial complex, including the police, and the continued de facto enslavement of Black proletarians is a crucial cornerstone of capitalist power. Again, look at the numbers - it is not a coincidence that the United States has the highest prison population in the world (both per capita and as a raw number), and that 40% of that population is Black (Black people are only 13% of the total US population). When we factor in parole/probation and, we're talking about close to seven million (almost exclusively) proletarians caught up in the system. It is in this context that we need to understand Black struggles against police, even if people in the struggle don't see this big picture. That said, I would say that it is condescending as all shit to assume people don't see this, and you must be willfully blind if you don't see the active participation of Black anticapitalists in BLM.

[GLF]

In fairness, I wasn't actually talking about Black Lives Matter when I mentioned "those on the front lines" - but the centre-left in general. Let's face it: they seem to be about the only buffer we currently have against right-wing tyranny. What a tragedy that is.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Split posts about the relationship between the state and the capitalist class.
It's important to not derail discussions about Black people's struggles, k thnx.

[willowtooth]

regarding the op

It needs to be repeated that BLM is not a political party or organization of any kind it is a political slogan, that anyone can use. You can start your own BLM protest in your hometown if you wish, even if its just in solidarity with protests in another city. Also, the majority of the rioting and looting has not been organized or committed for any political reasons. They have been committed by mostly kids, the shooting in dallas was committed by a singe mentally disturbed individual not on the orders of some secretive black nationalist army. Two things I've noticed is that any protest slightly related to police shootings in the past few years is now being called "black lives matter protests" also that most criticisms people level at "BLM" are just reflective of peoples opinions about black people in general, not the protests or any legitimate political grievances.

What this group M4BL is trying to do is develop a official group or political party out of the BLM protests, and give them leadership, a platform, and a list of demands. Researching the group further it seems to be funded primarily by open society foundation and the ford foundation. Which have been around for years and have focused on a wide variety of issues in many different countries. The funding is going through a group called the the "Black led movement fund" or BLMF. with atleast 30 million in funding so far, and a stated goal of $100 million managed through borealis philanthropy, movement strategy center, and benedict consulting. The funding is to be divided among 14 separate groups listed here: http://www.borealisphilanthropy.org/#!blmf-grantees/v22w3 A real political group generally places its leaders on the frontpage makes their names and faces known and contactable it took some digging to find out just who all of these M4BL people are. This reminds me of the "official unofficial" black lives matter website (which despite all the recent protests still doesn't have a calendar of upcoming events going) and their anonymity as if nobody is officially in charge of that website either.

Its all a bit spooky, if you ask me. :unsure:

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/FordFandCIA.html

[John Nada]

Here's an interview with two people who helped with the M4BL platform: http://www.alternet.org/activism/movement-black-lives-releases-political-agenda-stretches-far-beyond-police-violence
And a bunch of Zionist organizations got pissed at the M4BL because of its platform's support for Palestinian liberation: https://electronicintifada.net/content/black-activists-owe-no-apology-charging-israel-genocide/17721

Since only williowtooth was basically the only one to actually say anything about M4BL(WTF, 1st reply brocialism). I'll put some of my thoughts on two parts.

One is the the section on the right to unionize. I think supporting protests with strikes could have a much greater impact than the current tactic of marches and civil disobedience. An example would be like in India which has had bandhs(strikes) to protest "fake encounters"(police lynchings).

Another is the part on "community control". I'm suspicious of most proposals for community supervision of cops. I think it'll likely get stacked with comprador careerist who'll rubber stamp and legitimize the police. Basically an "indigenization" of the occupying forces to pretty up a continued counterinsurgency on workers and oppressed peoples(mostly workers). However, in https://policy.m4bl.org/community-control/ part, it references Black Community Control Over Police (http://wisconsinlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/4-Adams-Rameau-Final.pdf)(PDF). The authors discrib Black communites as domestic colonies and police as an occupying force. They point out the absurdity of apply many proposed reforms in past colonies:
Imagine living in colonized territories in Africa, Asia, or South America in the 1950s as the de-colonialization movement was taking shape. The colonial army, whether French, British, Dutch, or that of any other European power, was brutalizing people in the streets on a daily basis, often for no reason at all, as if only to instill fear in people to prevent them from rising up. Would you call for body cameras on the occupying army? Sensitivity training? Civilian review over army investigations of army murders of colonized people?

The police serve as an occupying force in low-income Black communities. The solution, they propose is community control with complete power to do what they please with the police. To prevent corruption or careerist(they even quotes Emma Goldman,"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal") members of the oversight are chosen randomly from people living in the community affected.

I honestly don't see this happening through reform. Maybe in a revolutionary base zone, but....
What this group M4BL is trying to do is develop a official group or political party out of the BLM protests, and give them leadership, a platform, and a list of demands. Researching the group further it seems to be funded primarily by open society foundation and the ford foundation. Which have been around for years and have focused on a wide variety of issues in many different countries. The funding is going through a group called the the "Black led movement fund" or BLMF. with atleast 30 million in funding so far, and a stated goal of $100 million managed through borealis philanthropy, movement strategy center, and benedict consulting. The funding is to be divided among 14 separate groups listed here: http://www.borealisphilanthropy.org/...grantees/v22w3 A real political group generally places its leaders on the frontpage makes their names and faces known and contactable it took some digging to find out just who all of these M4BL people are. This reminds me of the "official unofficial" black lives matter website (which despite all the recent protests still doesn't have a calendar of upcoming events going) and their anonymity as if nobody is officially in charge of that website either.That's a problem. Capitalism recuperates and NGOizes resistance: http://massalijn.nl/new/the-ngo-ization-of-resistance/ Legit resistance pops up all the time, in different forms, just some get channeled into one or the other direction.

[Kingfish]

Ive seen a few sources state that the group receives a lot of money from a liberal billionaire named Soros. Is there any truth to these claims because or is it just a smear attempt?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Ive seen a few sources state that the group receives a lot of money from a liberal billionaire named Soros. Is there any truth to these claims because or is it just a smear attempt?

It is in fact true. The afformentioned "Open Society Foundation" is Soros's project.

[John Nada]

Ive seen a few sources state that the group receives a lot of money from a liberal billionaire named Soros. Is there any truth to these claims because or is it just a smear attempt? It is in fact true. The afformentioned "Open Society Foundation" is Soros's project. http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp#archive-megaMenu It's true that Soros has donated to some BLM organizations. However, rightists use this as a dog whistle for their racist, antisemitic NWO conspiracies. That part is bullshit. Like fuck, shit that comes up in an internet search demonstratives the Right's bigoted, metaphysical, anti-democratic, anti-people outlook.:glare:

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/sorosferguson.asp#archive-megaMenu It's true that Soros has donated to some BLM organizations. However, rightists use this as a dog whistle for their racist, antisemitic NWO conspiracies. That part is bullshit. Like fuck, shit that comes up in an internet search demonstratives the Right's bigoted, metaphysical, anti-democratic, anti-people outlook.:glare:

Sure, BUT! I don't think we should ignore the influence weilded by big foundations. The NGO-ization of struggle they promote is a real dead end. And results in some ugly shit.

That's not to say that this has or necessarily will happen to the MfBLMP; on the other hand, being willfully unaware of the possibility makes it more dangerous.

[Kingfish]

Thanks for clearing that up, now 33 million seems like a lot but how big of chunk is it off the money received by the various BLM groups? Is this enough to gain significant influence or are these groups able to maintain full independence?

[John Nada]

Sure, BUT! I don't think we should ignore the influence weilded by big foundations. The NGO-ization of struggle they promote is a real dead end. And results in some ugly shit.

That's not to say that this has or necessarily will happen to the MfBLMP; on the other hand, being willfully unaware of the possibility makes it more dangerous.For real. The bourgeoisie doesn't act out of kindness, and their "help" is usually the opposite(see Haiti (https://www.thenation.com/article/ngo-republic-haiti/)). What I was typing about, is the conspiracy theories of "Soros is paying blacks to riot for the cultural Marxist NWO agenda!". Sadly in the real universe, he's not that cool:(. He's just a neoliberal bourgeois. Honestly, the reactionaries should be thanking Soros for his role in NGO-ization and recuperation of movements into the status quo.

What could be done to counter this phenomenon of NGO-zation? The bourgeoisie will not fund something that threatens their bottom line. Particularly since it's in their interest to deescalate militancy and downplay or ignore the class aspect.
And some major liberal donors are leery about funding a movement known for aggressive tactics ― particularly one that has shown a willingness to train its fire on Democrats, including presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814 It's from last year, and some of the members of the Movement for Black Lives attended.

I mean if someone went to these bourgeois donors talking about direct action, class warfare, anti-imperialism and socialism, they'd get ignored, if not arrested. But someone else talks about bettering capitalism, cost savings, making people feel better and getting Democrats elected, they'll get paid. Shit like this contributed to the Black Panther Party's decline when the social democratic line pursued something closer to the latter.
Thanks for clearing that up, now 33 million seems like a lot but how big of chunk is it off the money received by the various BLM groups? Is this enough to gain significant influence or are these groups able to maintain full independence? It would appear that the Snopes is misleading too. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/19/no-george-soros-didn-t-give-33-million-to-blacklivesmatter.html $33 million is the Open Society's US budget in 2014. It goes to a bunch of different things. For example, 1/8 goes to the Drug Policy Alliance. Though it's been a year.

[ckaihatsu]

Private prisons are still profiting from Black Lives


Dear Chris,

Corporations shouldn't profit from Black LIves



Tell DHS: End Private Prisons Now!

TAKE ACTION (http://act.colorofchange.org/sign/DHS-end-private-prisons/)



The Department of Homeland Security just announced it will review its use of private detention centers—but the prison industrial complex is far from over. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS)—the private prison industry’s largest client—will continue to operate over 155 Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detention centers under private prison contracts. This is fueling a vicious system of for-profit incarceration and a political machine that wants to make sure mass incarceration never ends.1

The announcement is a huge step in the right direction—but we won't stop corporations from profiting off the captivity of Black people if DHS and ICE don’t cut ties with private prisons too. And with the news from the DOJ percolating through national headlines, people are already pressuring the DHS to follow its lead. Will you sign the petition?

Tell the Department of Homeland Security: End all private prison contracts immediately. (http://act.colorofchange.org/sign/DHS-end-private-prisons/)

Immediately following the DOJ announcement, Corrections Corp. of America (CCA) and GEO Group--the two largest private prison corporations—stock plunged nearly 40 percent. That’s a lot, but not enough to make a dent in the companies' multi-million dollar lobbying budget.2 Since 1989, CCA and GEO have spent over $35 MILLION lobbying and supporting political campaigns to keep Black people in jail. They’ve lobbied for longer sentences, “three-strikes” rules, and anti-immigration legislation like Arizona’s notorious racial profiling law. Stopping private prison companies means stopping a political machine with only one interest: maintaining a profit-driven system of keeping Black folks locked up.

The Department of Homeland Security is the biggest contributor to the private prison industry. Its divestment would take us much closer to ending private prisons than the Department of Justice’s. Only eight percent of federal and state prisons combined are run by for-profit companies—while a whopping 62 percent of immigration detention centers are for-profit. If DHS cuts ties with private prisons now, it would have an even more devastating impact on the private prison industry and its political power.

Secretary Johnson knows a review is not enough. Johnson is a graduate of the historical Black college Morehouse College and comes from a civil rights family. His grandfather, Dr. Charles S. Johnson, was a well-known researcher, advocate for Black people and president of Fisk University, another historically black college. Secretary Johnson is a part of a legacy that embodies the fight for equality. He cannot let his new legacy be based on leading a federal department that violates human rights and commits abuse.

Private prisons are the most horrific places to be imprisoned. ICE detention centers where undocumented individuals, families, and even children are held captive are in horribly inhumane conditions and routinely violate civil and human rights.3 They force women and children to sleep on cold floors, eat food infested with maggots, go without proper medical care, and women are too often sexually assaulted by guards. The facilities are so poorly run, that many have died in these detention centers. Even the federal report that prompted the DOJ’s announcement found that private prisons run by corporations are less safe and less secure.

Companies shouldn’t profit from mass incarceration and the suffering of Black people. Demand DHS divest from private prisons. (http://act.colorofchange.org/sign/DHS-end-private-prisons/)

ICE detention centers also detain Black undocumented people at a higher rate due to anti-Black racial profiling, over policing, and incarceration. Black immigrants who face any type of criminal conviction or attempt to seek asylum with the U.S. are more likely to bear the brunt of deportation and detention leaving them more vulnerable to the private prison system.4

Private prison companies depend on the suffering of Black people to make profit—and it has to end now. Just last year, DHS’s operation of ICE doubled the revenue it was sending to private prison companies.5 And over the years, DHS has made the private prison industry very profitable—now worth roughly more than $70 billion.

But here’s the good news: The DOJ’s decision and now DHS announcement sets a huge precedent in weakening the power of private prison companies—and we have a real chance to force DHS and ICE to follow suit. Private prisons have no place in our society and we must continue to fight against an industry that capitalizes off of Black pain.

Sign the petition. (http://act.colorofchange.org/sign/DHS-end-private-prisons/)

Until justice is real,

Rashad, Arisha, Scott, Anay, Clarise, and the rest of the Color Of Change team


References:

“The Problem With The DOJ’s Decision To Stop Using Private Prisons,” Think Progress, 08.18.2016.https://act.colorofchange.org/go/6709?ak_proof=1&t=7&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p

“How for-profit prisons have become the biggest lobby no one is talking about,” The Washington Post, 04.28.2015.https://act.colorofchange.org/go/6710?ak_proof=1&t=9&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p

“Overcrowded, unsanitary conditions seen at immigrant detention centers,” Los Angeles Times, 06.18.2014.http://act.colorofchange.org/go/6712?ak_proof=1&t=11&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p

“Black Immigrants' Lives Matter: Disrupting the Dialogue on Immigrant Detention,” Truth-Out.org, 07.22.2015.http://act.colorofchange.org/go/6723?ak_proof=1&t=13&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p .html">http://act.colorofchange.org/go/6724?ak_proof=1&t=14&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p
“Sorry, But the Private Prison Industry isn’t Going Anywhere,” The Huffington Post, 08.18.2016.http://act.colorofchange.org/go/6713?ak_proof=1&t=16&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p .html">http://act.colorofchange.org/go/6713?ak_proof=1&t=17&akid=.2473350.nSEj1p -




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