Why does a movement for the people have no support by the people?

[AOHSBTS]

Before anyone reads this I would like to say that I'm in no way trying to say the left is dead, I'm simply wondering what the left is doing wrong, why did we lose touch with the people? Why are the right-wing populists gaining power - votes - from the people that suffer the most under their oppression?
People out there are sacrificing their own well being by voting right wing, most peope that support ukip or the Tories are from lower social and economic classes, and poverty has become an issue for the people that work.

Either way, read this or not, here are a few points I wrote down.

Around elections in my country I walk around and steal some pins here and there, get some pamphlets by the left parties just to have a look(I vote, by the way) and every time I hear them out and read their political agendas they never offer something relevant and new. It's always the same things that are pushed, I think most of the pamphlets haven't even been changed since the 60's, they're pushing outdated ideas and more often than not they have no clue about ecnomics, science and technology.
And by the way, why is no one studying IT or economy in the left circles? If you are - please get in touch? I would like to discuss a few things concerning these topics.

..Like why everyone is hellbent on policing eachother and flaming teh n00bz that aren't on track with the newest gender titles or whatever the hell kind of totalitarian agendas you want to push. This is perhaps one of the
reasons most people out there look at us like where from a different planet. I'm going to make the assumption that most people out there have no clue about gender issues, and rather have to worry about scraping by and paying bills than safe spaces and triggered youtubers. Have we completely lost our grounding? Why on earth are the ones that further divide our movement calling the ones that criticize them reactionaries?

And why did the German left applaud Merkel for "opening the borders" of Europe, did they really believe the borders in Europe are open? Did they truly believe that letting in masses of refugees would cause anything but chaos? The reason the refugees are coming here is because most people support politicians that think the NATO is a good idea, and partially because the funding of the refugee camps was cut leaving these people with nothing after causing the total destruction of their country.

I don't even think conservatives are the real threat nowadays, it's the liberals. Now, I don't know what defines a liberal in your specific location - but I mean the ones that believe in meritocracy and the free market.

My last point is, why is it bad to be a patriot? Mind you, I am a first generation immigrant in Europe. I am part of a minority in the country I live in - my family was forced to emmigrate and my home country is now left in shambles.
There is nothing I want more than to see it rise to it's previous state under Tito, actually. You know what's happening there right now? Blood feuds are a thing again, people are converting to islam and religious differences have never been a bigger issue than now. I don't care if you consider me an islamophobe, maybe you just wouldn't understand how much destruction and corruption it has caused in the Balkan regions.

In any communist state that ever existed it was considered a compliment to be called a patriot - and not for hating other cultures, but for respecting them and sacrificing yourself for your community and the greater good. And now it's hijacked by idiots applauding the holocaust.

Before you call me a brocialist, I would like to add that I am a woman, if that makes any difference.

Commence the flaming

[Red Spark]

And by the way, why is no one studying IT or economy in the left circles? If you are - please get in touch?
Hey, that's not correct. I'll be starting college this year and I intend to major in economics; I'm not fully sure though.


I don't even think conservatives are the real threat nowadays, it's the liberals. Now, I don't know what defines a liberal in your specific location - but I mean the ones that believe in meritocracy and the free market.
No, at least not where I live. Conservatives are the worst; they are greatest populists here. They dwell on fears of the people and speak nonsense rhetorics without any concrete scientific proofs of what they are saying. Liberals don't do anything other than calling us, Marxists, domatists. Maybe, your point is valid in case of west.


My last point is, why is it bad to be a patriot? Mind you, I am a first generation immigrant in Europe. I am part of a minority in the country I live in - my family was forced to emmigrate and my home country is now left in shambles.


In any communist state that ever existed it was considered a compliment to be called a patriot - and not for hating other cultures, but for respecting them and sacrificing yourself for your community and the greater good. And now it's hijacked by idiots applauding the holocaust.
Yes, people here are mostly anti-nationalist. I am a nationalist; no matter what anyone says I'm going to love the place I was born and raised on. But when it comes to politics we should draw the line. Moderate nationalism is no harm but when it starts taking the form of Hitlerist national chauvinism then it should be attacked.
Moreover, most people here don't even think former Eastern bloc as communist. I mostly refrain from commenting on that because I have no idea about "any communist state that ever existed".

[Chomskyan]

If I had the time and money, I´d study Economics. I´m an International Relations major actually. It´s not the only thing I´d study either, I´d get a PhD in Chemistry and Physics as well as Philosophy if I had the money and time.

But, you know, capitalists don´t care about my education. Or anyone´s.


I don't even think conservatives are the real threat nowadays, it's the liberals. Now, I don't know what defines a liberal in your specific location - but I mean the ones that believe in meritocracy and the free market.


Conservatives are insane, but the liberals who are trying to use socialism to mean ´anything the government does´ and in doing so, preventing real class consciousness and revolution, I agree is a problem. But, honestly the right in the United States is far more of a problem than the liberals. Besides their petty bourgeois nature, as well as their lack of systemic and accurate analysis of society and it´s structure and purpose, I would criticize them on putting peoples attention on meager social issues and lulling them into false consciousness. Oh, and their ´liberal internationalism´ which is a fancy way of saying imperialism.

But no, I don´t think liberals are worse in the US context.


My last point is, why is it bad to be a patriot? Mind you, I am a first generation immigrant in Europe. I am part of a minority in the country I live in - my family was forced to emmigrate and my home country is now left in shambles.


Because it´s a myth. It´s a national myth people (i.e., the ruling class c.f., Marx, The German Ideology) made up, in order to keep people in line and maintaining the class system.

I like my country in the sense that it´s my home, and that it´s a good pile of dirt to live on. But we shouldn´t pretend that nationalism isn´t anything but a mythology people made up.

Eugene Debs sums up our internationalist view in this way, ´I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.´ (Appeal to Reason)

I like my country, but I don´t like the nationalist mythology or the State.

[LionofTepelenë]

Before anyone reads this I would like to say that I'm in no way trying to say the left is dead, I'm simply wondering what the left is doing wrong, why did we lose touch with the people? Why are the right-wing populists gaining power - votes - from the people that suffer the most under their oppression?
People out there are sacrificing their own well being by voting right wing, most peope that support ukip or the Tories are from lower social and economic classes, and poverty has become an issue for the people that work.

Either way, read this or not, here are a few points I wrote down.

The reason why we are so weak is because we have literally come out of a dark age, that is from the era of McCarthy up to Regan and Bush senior. The 90s literally were a time of almost NO advancements in communism. However we are doing better, and there is Communist parties that are healthy in Japan, with over 500,000 members so we will do better.

It isn't that they are wishing their own ill will, it is that they have been indoctrinated into capitalist lies against communism. They are also trained by the establishment to be consumerists and are distracted by the entertainment industry. All of these are the blocks that the capitalist system relies on the maintain itself.


Around elections in my country I walk around and steal some pins here and there, get some pamphlets by the left parties just to have a look(I vote, by the way) and every time I hear them out and read their political agendas they never offer something relevant and new. It's always the same things that are pushed, I think most of the pamphlets haven't even been changed since the 60's, they're pushing outdated ideas and more often than not they have no clue about economics, science and technology.
And by the way, why is no one studying IT or economy in the left circles? If you are - please get in touch? I would like to discuss a few things concerning these topics.

Its because they are representing the capitalist class, and have to preserve the status quo. This is the reality of our situation, and any vote for Bernie Sanders will just end in a new Obama, that is just how the system is. Also economy is studied by many people in the left, that is how economic theory is discussed. I'm not sure about IT.


..Like why everyone is hellbent on policing eachother and flaming teh n00bz that aren't on track with the newest gender titles or whatever the hell kind of totalitarian agendas you want to push. This is perhaps one of the
reasons most people out there look at us like where from a different planet. I'm going to make the assumption that most people out there have no clue about gender issues, and rather have to worry about scraping by and paying bills than safe spaces and triggered youtubers. Have we completely lost our grounding? Why on earth are the ones that further divide our movement calling the ones that criticize them reactionaries?

Because these so-called feminists have hijacked former women's rights and continued it as a tool of individualism and self-worship. This plays into the hands of capitalism, and is a legitimate problem that I personally should address. Bourgeois feminism is our enemy, and should be critiqued as a distinct entity from older feminism.


And why did the German left applaud Merkel for "opening the borders" of Europe, did they really believe the borders in Europe are open? Did they truly believe that letting in masses of refugees would cause anything but chaos? The reason the refugees are coming here is because most people support politicians that think the NATO is a good idea, and partially because the funding of the refugee camps was cut leaving these people with nothing after causing the total destruction of their country.

Let the refugees in, they are not people who want chaos, they are fleeing it. Let me tell you what happened to my people in '91, after the fall of the ''communist'' government of Enver Hoxha the economy collapsed and it gradually got taken over by a bunch of oligarchs. Just like the Syrians, we HAD to flee and it wasn't our choice. We needed jobs and a way to feed our families and survive, we wanted stability. You know this, and I know this.


I don't even think conservatives are the real threat nowadays, it's the liberals. Now, I don't know what defines a liberal in your specific location - but I mean the ones that believe in meritocracy and the free market.

Right-Libertarians are the real danger, they exemplify a new breed of Fascism that is born in the USA. They are grounded in American culture, and have refined their narrative of the battle between the bourgeoisie and the lower class to a point of perfection. They are dangerous, and must be stopped.


My last point is, why is it bad to be a patriot? Mind you, I am a first generation immigrant in Europe. I am part of a minority in the country I live in - my family was forced to emmigrate and my home country is now left in shambles.
There is nothing I want more than to see it rise to it's previous state under Tito, actually. You know what's happening there right now? Blood feuds are a thing again, people are converting to islam and religious differences have never been a bigger issue than now. I don't care if you consider me an islamophobe, maybe you just wouldn't understand how much destruction and corruption it has caused in the Balkan regions.

I held similar questions too, I was an Albanian nationalist. Nationalism is itself a bad thing if used by a bourgeois government to justify invasion and destruction of their neighbors. What people must do is instead understand the distinction between nationalism in the sense cultural knowledge and nationalism in the sense of national superiority and irridentism. Irridentism is used as a tool of murder and exploitation.

Titoism and Stalinism is not the answer to capitalism, it is actually an extension of the oppression that it has. Statism and capitalism must be smashed in order to liberate the working class, and the proletariat must smash any nationalism and fascism that is the indirect result of it. Tito wasn't anything but an oppressive governmental force to the people, the byproduct of the long-dead Russian revolution. There is nothing useful from Titoism or any other state socialist ideology, as it departs from Marx's original critique of statism, and maintains the oppressive notion of a state.


In any communist state that ever existed it was considered a compliment to be called a patriot - and not for hating other cultures, but for respecting them and sacrificing yourself for your community and the greater good. And now it's hijacked by idiots applauding the holocaust.

We must not be tricked into nationalism in the imperialist sense, because while we may be Bulgars or Austrians, we are also humans and we are all under the boot of capitalism together. You must fight not for just your community and country, but for the world. Put the globe before nation, and you will know what I mean. I understand the national pride that burns in many people in the Balkan's hearts, because I am from there and I still have appreciation of my culture. But I also know that a state built on this pride and using it to justify imperialism is a horrific thought indeed. So just keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind that the concept of a nation didn't exist until the late 1800s, and developed around the time of the largest sequence of mass murder in humanity's history. Do you see the timing? Imperial Nationalism was developed as way to wipe out any revolutionary potential in the working class and keep them fighting against each other. Instead of renouncing their artificial opposition and fight against a common enemy.

I know this probably quite random and maybe even contradictory, but I've been thinking about this for along time too and these are my main conclusions. If anyone wants to tear me apart, just do it respectfully.

Also its good to see someone from the Balkans is in this website. Stick around here because I like these sort of conversations! :)

[Strannik]

Right wing populism is a reaction to modern liberalism - an alliance between "internationalist" (actually, imperialist) capitalism and the "official" left dealing in identity politics while keeping quiet about fundamental reasons behind the oppression.
Basically people see "left" as the "liberal arts" partner of market liberalism or proponent of state planned command economy, certainly not a force interested in giving any power to people.
Originally communist movements assaulted nationalist, racial and gender prejudice as consequences of class oppression. Modern left assaults ideas about class oppression as cover for, say, biologically caused gender oppression. Essentially it claims that proletariat is to blame for their condition.
In this situation, call of nationalist bourgeoise for isolationism sounds like a good idea - at least they say that something is wrong and someone besides proletarians themselves is to blame.
But nationalist bourgeoise does not offer any solution against plight of the workers or the social degeneration and spread of barbarism and superstition.
Proletariat can defeat bourgeoise only as a international, independent force. Proletariat cannot win with patriotism that intends to gain an advantage for one nation at the cost of another. In essence, patriotism of national bourgeoise is the identity politics of the "left" in another disguise. Both believe that advatage to one group should come at the cost of another - not in universal liberation.

I've studied IT. I believe that for a few years now, theories of network societies and sharing economies have slowly moved towards left even when they are not quite there yet.

https://c4ss.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/TechnoUtopiaPDF1.pdf
https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/artificial-abundance-and-artificial-scarcity/2016/02/21

[AOHSBTS]

I've been lurking around on revleft for a while before deciding to join and there are many people(off-forum) that critisize the way things are debated here, but I really appreciate all your replies to the thread!

Considering the state things are in right now I think most degrees are "useless", useless in the sense that they don't give us financial security.
I know it makes no difference to the capitalists if we study economy or IT, but realistically speaking a communist state today would need to be part of the economic system. I think there needs to be room for more than the social aspects of communism within the communist parties. As I know you guys are obviously aware of, but no the ones out there trying to get voted.

On patriotism - I think there are different approaches to the word, but just like hippies getting swastikas tattooed claiming the original meaning of the symbol didn't have anything to do with nazis, using the word patriot nowadays is also ..stupid, in the lack of better words. I agree completely with all of you, we need to abolish cultural differences in their traditional meaning, but that doesn't mean local culture has to be erased. The "multicultural" Europe today is nothing but a breeding ground for nazis - why did they hijack "patriotism"? Since when is serving your community a right wing thing?

I know this is a touchy subject, but I will use my own country as an example; I am originally from Kosovo(I'm glad to see a fellow Albanian on the forum :) ). Not so long ago a group of students rose up and said they didn't want to be taught about Skanderbeg because he fought the Ottomans. I mean.. It didn't go through of course, but the effect religion is having on people there is really bad.
Islam, as most other religions, is imperialist. The muslims in Kosovo consider their religion to be their culture - as shown with, say, IS when they completely obliterate their own cultural heritage without even flinching. I think religious freedom is necessary, but should have no place in official and public structures.

On the refugees, I actually live right next to an insititution that houses refugees on arrival. I feel for them, I know they want no chaos. The problem is not the refugees, but the "natives". It does cause chaos when you see fascist and nationalists gain support - or when there are arson attacks and threats to refugee homes. How will we contain that when the fascists get voted into the parliaments? My inner 3 year old is screaming send them to the gulags.
Of course I know it's terrible to go through what the people coming here are going through right now. The politicians have no right to send them back to Turkey, or whatever other European country they might end up in. What hurts the most is seeing the destruction the west has caused - and still politicians push the same old policies, and win the voters too.

I think integration is a joke, I hate being told "Wow, I'd never guess you were an Albanian" as if it's supposed to be a compliment. I would love to move back to Kosovo if it was possible, but like every other debt slave out there I can't afford it.
I agree that Tito was very flawed, but compared to the state the countries are in now it was arguably better back then. One can argue that all communist states that ever existed were not really communist, but can a revolution ever have an immediate perfect outcome?

Like parasites, capitalism is the biggest threat to the people. And like parasites, they're almost impossible to get rid of. They've latched on to everything that distincts them from the left and corrupted it. The women's rights movement is naturally a part of communism, I agree that the "thrid wavers" or whichever wave they're on now is not. Policing and violently forcing people into silence is as fascist as it gets.

[Rudolf]

..Like why everyone is hellbent on policing eachother and flaming teh n00bz that aren't on track with the newest gender titles or whatever the hell kind of totalitarian agendas you want to push. This is perhaps one of the
reasons most people out there look at us like where from a different planet. I'm going to make the assumption that most people out there have no clue about gender issues, and rather have to worry about scraping by and paying bills than safe spaces and triggered youtubers. Have we completely lost our grounding? Why on earth are the ones that further divide our movement calling the ones that criticize them reactionaries?



I find it interesting how you seem to make a distinction between trans people and those 'scraping by and paying bills'. Come on, being trans has massive social ramifications including increased likelihood of being out of work.

The reason the left isn't doing well is because generally the left doesn't give a flying fuck about the poor and lacks any appropriate analysis and plan of action for 21st century conditions. The left's priorities are wrong by focusing its effort and resources on symbolic gestures as opposed to trying to alleviate the misery of the most destitute in society via collective action. More time and effort is spent in defensive struggles of those well above the average wage than those centred around the unemployed, the homeless and the precarious.

As someone often called a 'scrounger' the left is dead and its remnants can go fuck themselves.

[LionofTepelenë]

I've been lurking around on revleft for a while before deciding to join and there are many people(off-forum) that critisize the way things are debated here, but I really appreciate all your replies to the thread!

Their criticisms are relevant, and I tend to agree with them. However


Considering the state things are in right now I think most degrees are "useless", useless in the sense that they don't give us financial security.
I know it makes no difference to the capitalists if we study economy or IT, but realistically speaking a communist state today would need to be part of the economic system. I think there needs to be room for more than the social aspects of communism within the communist parties. As I know you guys are obviously aware of, but no the ones out there trying to get voted.




On patriotism - I think there are different approaches to the word, but just like hippies getting swastikas tattooed claiming the original meaning of the symbol didn't have anything to do with nazis, using the word patriot nowadays is also ..stupid, in the lack of better words. I agree completely with all of you, we need to abolish cultural differences in their traditional meaning, but that doesn't mean local culture has to be erased. The "multicultural" Europe today is nothing but a breeding ground for nazis - why did they hijack "patriotism"? Since when is serving your community a right wing thing?

Local culture doesn't need to be erased, but state entities that believe that one culture is superior are very dangerous and divide the working class. Pride for culture existed for thousands of years, but we must also know that nationalism in its current form evolved from Nationalism and Racism. Multicultural Europe also isn't a breeding ground for Nazism, but instead a group of workers looking at their fellow workers with hatred for something like skin color or religion.


I know this is a touchy subject, but I will use my own country as an example; I am originally from Kosovo(I'm glad to see a fellow Albanian on the forum :) ). Not so long ago a group of students rose up and said they didn't want to be taught about Skanderbeg because he fought the Ottomans. I mean.. It didn't go through of course, but the effect religion is having on people there is really bad.
Islam, as most other religions, is imperialist. The muslims in Kosovo consider their religion to be their culture - as shown with, say, IS when they completely obliterate their own cultural heritage without even flinching. I think religious freedom is necessary, but should have no place in official and public structures.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with Islam in Kosovo, but what is happening is the importation of Wahhabi thought from Saudi Arabia, which is supported by America. Also I am disgusted that those students supported the Ottomans against Skanderbeg, he is our greatest hero who liberated us from the Ottoman Turks.

I recall listening to reports of Kosovars who joined ISIL in Syria, those bastards need to be wiped out. But it isn't Islam itself that is doing this, Islam is very misunderstood and its history has interested me for a while now. I am not a Muslim, but I know that Islam has never ''annihilated'' any cultures.


On the refugees, I actually live right next to an insititution that houses refugees on arrival. I feel for them, I know they want no chaos. The problem is not the refugees, but the "natives". It does cause chaos when you see fascist and nationalists gain support - or when there are arson attacks and threats to refugee homes. How will we contain that when the fascists get voted into the parliaments? My inner 3 year old is screaming send them to the gulags.
Of course I know it's terrible to go through what the people coming here are going through right now. The politicians have no right to send them back to Turkey, or whatever other European country they might end up in. What hurts the most is seeing the destruction the west has caused - and still politicians push the same old policies, and win the voters too.

Yes its very sad...


I think integration is a joke, I hate being told "Wow, I'd never guess you were an Albanian" as if it's supposed to be a compliment. I would love to move back to Kosovo if it was possible, but like every other debt slave out there I can't afford it.
I agree that Tito was very flawed, but compared to the state the countries are in now it was arguably better back then. One can argue that all communist states that ever existed were not really communist, but can a revolution ever have an immediate perfect outcome?

Let me tell you a secret about a non-statist communist revolution, it HAPPENED! The Catalonian revolution was wonderful in that there was no state and yet everything worked out! Even though they were anarchists, they were still anarcho-communists who created a stable confederation even in a civil war scenario. The reason they fell was the combined might of Nazi Germany and Fascist Spain wiping them out.

The outcome doesn't need to be perfect, but perfect enough for people to live a good and healthy life. The reason why eastern Europe was so much of a backwater was because we had always been a backwater. We need a global revolution in order to establish


Like parasites, capitalism is the biggest threat to the people. And like parasites, they're almost impossible to get rid of. They've latched on to everything that distincts them from the left and corrupted it. The women's rights movement is naturally a part of communism, I agree that the "thrid wavers" or whichever wave they're on now is not. Policing and violently forcing people into silence is as fascist as it gets.

Yeah..

[AOHSBTS]

Local culture doesn't need to be erased, but state entities that believe that one culture is superior are very dangerous and divide the working class. Pride for culture existed for thousands of years, but we must also know that nationalism in its current form evolved from Nationalism and Racism. Multicultural Europe also isn't a breeding ground for Nazism, but instead a group of workers looking at their fellow workers with hatred for something like skin color or religion.Of course they are dangerous.
Let me rephrase, then; It is a breeding ground for fascists trying to exploit workers for their own cause, because no one else is there to give them hope.
I don't blame the people for voting them, I blame the left for not being there.



There is nothing necessarily wrong with Islam in Kosovo, but what is happening is the importation of Wahhabi thought from Saudi Arabia, which is supported by America. Also I am disgusted that those students supported the Ottomans against Skanderbeg, he is our greatest hero who liberated us from the Ottoman Turks.

I recall listening to reports of Kosovars who joined ISIL in Syria, those bastards need to be wiped out. But it isn't Islam itself that is doing this, Islam is very misunderstood and its history has interested me for a while now. I am not a Muslim, but I know that Islam has never ''annihilated'' any cultures. There is nothing necessarily wrong with being religious at all, but I am skeptic to the notion that an imperialist religion does not annihilate cultures. It might be the Wahhabi influence, but nevertheless it is what it is right now. Wahhabi or not, it's only dividing the people further.
Many think Islam is very misunderstood, I see all aspects of this, don't get me wrong. It's not like I haven't been exposed to it. As I said, I think there is nothing wrong with religion as long as it doesn't establish it's own structures within social structures. Same goes with the church, they need to follow the rules and guidelines set by the community and not see their religion as something that differs them from other people.

Just to clarify, I think culture is what is created within a community, not rigidly holding on to whatever idiotic norms your country holds. Culture is created when people from different backgrounds actually live together rather than thinking that someone that comes to your country has to be integrated. That immediately creates a difference between "us" and "you".



Let me tell you a secret about a non-statist communist revolution, it HAPPENED! The Catalonian revolution was wonderful in that there was no state and yet everything worked out! Even though they were anarchists, they were still anarcho-communists who created a stable confederation even in a civil war scenario. The reason they fell was the combined might of Nazi Germany and Fascist Spain wiping them out.

The outcome doesn't need to be perfect, but perfect enough for people to live a good and healthy life. The reason why eastern Europe was so much of a backwater was because we had always been a backwater. We need a global revolution in order to establish Of course there was the Catalonian revolution, but like you said - there would need to be a global revolution in order to establish that. If not they would have ended up being the North Korea of Europe. How realistic is a global revolution, truly? Where would be "put" the capitalists, to put it bluntly?


I find it interesting how you seem to make a distinction between trans people and those 'scraping by and paying bills'. Come on, being trans has massive social ramifications including increased likelihood of being out of work.


I made no distinction between trans people and those scraping by, I am well aware that most trans people have difficulties "scraping by", more so than your average straight family guy. I don't, however, see how the twitter activists are improving their situation by beating down on everyone that commits a thought crime on social media.



The reason the left isn't doing well is because generally the left doesn't give a flying fuck about the poor and lacks any appropriate analysis and plan of action for 21st century conditions. The left's priorities are wrong by focusing its effort and resources on symbolic gestures as opposed to trying to alleviate the misery of the most destitute in society via collective action. More time and effort is spent in defensive struggles of those well above the average wage than those centred around the unemployed, the homeless and the precarious.

Exactly!

[#FF0000]

It's hard to say what's wrong with the left globally, but I think it's fair to say that the weakening of the labor movement is one of (if not the) biggest factor in this. I don't think the "focus" of communists has much to do with the state of the left, given the fact that there's not much of a worker's movement in many parts of the world.

[Armchair Partisan]

..Like why everyone is hellbent on policing eachother and flaming teh n00bz that aren't on track with the newest gender titles or whatever the hell kind of totalitarian agendas you want to push.

Am I the only one who finds this sentence reeeeally dodgy? I mean, not even just for the first part, I guess it's fair to question the strong focus on gender politics if you are under the belief that its role is exaggerated (hey, one can talk about it), but calling it a "totalitarian agenda" is an immediate red flag (heh heh) that makes me suggest "right-winger posting in bad faith". That the whole post is just about shilling for the idea of patriotism is just icing on the cake. I mean, sometimes I think that my "troll alarm" might be a bit trigger-happy but I just can't help smelling a rat here.


Before you call me a brocialist, I would like to add that I am a woman, if that makes any difference.

It makes no difference to the validity of your statements, rest assured.

[Burzhuin]

One of the reason, based on my personal experience, is simple: leftists ARE AFRAID of the people. Even afraid of workers. But we MUST WORK with workers first. But it is much easier to place your ass in comfortable chair in front of PC and show what wonderful revolutionary you are.

[Recuperation]

Before anyone reads this I would like to say that I'm in no way trying to say the left is dead, I'm simply wondering what the left is doing wrong, why did we lose touch with the people? Why are the right-wing populists gaining power - votes - from the people that suffer the most under their oppression?
People out there are sacrificing their own well being by voting right wing, most peope that support ukip or the Tories are from lower social and economic classes, and poverty has become an issue for the people that work.

Either way, read this or not, here are a few points I wrote down.

Around elections in my country I walk around and steal some pins here and there, get some pamphlets by the left parties just to have a look(I vote, by the way) and every time I hear them out and read their political agendas they never offer something relevant and new. It's always the same things that are pushed, I think most of the pamphlets haven't even been changed since the 60's, they're pushing outdated ideas and more often than not they have no clue about ecnomics, science and technology.
And by the way, why is no one studying IT or economy in the left circles? If you are - please get in touch? I would like to discuss a few things concerning these topics.

..Like why everyone is hellbent on policing eachother and flaming teh n00bz that aren't on track with the newest gender titles or whatever the hell kind of totalitarian agendas you want to push. This is perhaps one of the
reasons most people out there look at us like where from a different planet. I'm going to make the assumption that most people out there have no clue about gender issues, and rather have to worry about scraping by and paying bills than safe spaces and triggered youtubers. Have we completely lost our grounding? Why on earth are the ones that further divide our movement calling the ones that criticize them reactionaries?

And why did the German left applaud Merkel for "opening the borders" of Europe, did they really believe the borders in Europe are open? Did they truly believe that letting in masses of refugees would cause anything but chaos? The reason the refugees are coming here is because most people support politicians that think the NATO is a good idea, and partially because the funding of the refugee camps was cut leaving these people with nothing after causing the total destruction of their country.

I don't even think conservatives are the real threat nowadays, it's the liberals. Now, I don't know what defines a liberal in your specific location - but I mean the ones that believe in meritocracy and the free market.

My last point is, why is it bad to be a patriot? Mind you, I am a first generation immigrant in Europe. I am part of a minority in the country I live in - my family was forced to emmigrate and my home country is now left in shambles.
There is nothing I want more than to see it rise to it's previous state under Tito, actually. You know what's happening there right now? Blood feuds are a thing again, people are converting to islam and religious differences have never been a bigger issue than now. I don't care if you consider me an islamophobe, maybe you just wouldn't understand how much destruction and corruption it has caused in the Balkan regions.

In any communist state that ever existed it was considered a compliment to be called a patriot - and not for hating other cultures, but for respecting them and sacrificing yourself for your community and the greater good. And now it's hijacked by idiots applauding the holocaust.

Before you call me a brocialist, I would like to add that I am a woman, if that makes any difference.

Commence the flaming


Hm. There is a lot here that I have to wonder about, are you actually a communist? You complain about Islam, open borders (and yet your parents are immigrants to your country..), you complain about safe spaces and "language policing" which I assume refers to "politically correct" language and then you go on to attack free market liberals while essentially defending the right wing who we must assume oppose free markets in turn? I think you may have clicked on the google wrong link my friend.

Anyhow, communism is not a red flag attached to a party which wins elections in a given country. It is not a platform which is tweaked to appeal to this or that demographic for this or that election cycle. Communism is the control of production by the working class for the purpose of direct consumption by the working class with the ultimate aim of abolishing the class itself in its entirety. This implies a great deal of changes that apparently will upset you greatly I'm afraid. Among them, non-existent borders. Solidarity, that is to say safe spaces, for those fleeing dangerous conditions in their places of origin regardless of their religious, cultural, social identification, etc.

Communism will not be something we all slide into as if its just another day. It is a struggle, one which involves confrontations with ourselves and the ideologies which infest our minds, yours most acutely as displayed here in your post, as much as with others externally. Be brave.

[Comrade #138672]

One of the reason, based on my personal experience, is simple: leftists ARE AFRAID of the people. Even afraid of workers. But we MUST WORK with workers first. But it is much easier to place your ass in comfortable chair in front of PC and show what wonderful revolutionary you are.I hope you see the irony of your post.

[Burzhuin]

I hope you see the irony of your post.
I wish it was irony, but in all unions and organizations I participated I could not find any trace of leftist activity. If you do not work with workers and in your local community where would you work? Of course in Internet.

[AOHSBTS]

Am I the only one who finds this sentence reeeeally dodgy? I mean, not even just for the first part, I guess it's fair to question the strong focus on gender politics if you are under the belief that its role is exaggerated (hey, one can talk about it), but calling it a "totalitarian agenda" is an immediate red flag (heh heh) that makes me suggest "right-winger posting in bad faith". That the whole post is just about shilling for the idea of patriotism is just icing on the cake. I mean, sometimes I think that my "troll alarm" might be a bit trigger-happy but I just can't help smelling a rat here.



It makes no difference to the validity of your statements, rest assured.

Rest assured I'm no right winger and you are being a little trigger happy. My point on patriotism was that the reason the left is losing so many votes to the right in Europe is because of the implications the right wing give this word; namely conserving your country, while in fact no political ideology is more true to conserving what makes up a country - it's people - than communism. If you think the solution to the refugee crisis is letting everyone in under the pretence that they'll have a chance at starting a good life here you are dreadfully wrong. They are deporting people in all directions and there is not even enough housing for everyone to realise this "humane" gesture. They are going to deport every single one of them, and that is wrong.

[Recuperation]

False consciousness is a terrible weapon to fight a class war with.

[Exterminatus]

Rest assured I'm no right winger and you are being a little trigger happy. My point on patriotism was that the reason the left is losing so many votes to the right in Europe is because of the implications the right wing give this word; namely conserving your country, while in fact no political ideology is more true to conserving what makes up a country - it's people - than communism. If you think the solution to the refugee crisis is letting everyone in under the pretence that they'll have a chance at starting a good life here you are dreadfully wrong. They are deporting people in all directions and there is not even enough housing for everyone to realise this "humane" gesture. They are going to deport every single one of them, and that is wrong.

The reason the right is so strong in Europe is because of capitalist instability and leftist inability to challenge this instability. Why are we powerless? I think that may be because we are living in the past. Here in Serbia for example, "communist" parties simply won't forget about their hopes of Titoism and Stalinism. They try to play nostalgia card and it's true that quality of life for working class was many times better than today and most will acknowledge this (even right wing voters). The problem is that such time has passed long ago, and those "communist" parties are today reactionary by definition. Voters know this very well. And this is the case in most ex-"socialist" states. We need to find a way to reclaim heroic history of our forefathers from both Stalinists and social democrats and employ them in a new, present context of international revolutionary politics. How do we do this? Well hell if i know yet lol

[Heretek]

One of the reason, based on my personal experience, is simple: leftists ARE AFRAID of the people. Even afraid of workers. But we MUST WORK with workers first. But it is much easier to place your ass in comfortable chair in front of PC and show what wonderful revolutionary you are.

People can't participate in online theory and practice while their group is, idk, adjourned for the evening/week/month/whatever?

[Burzhuin]

The reason the right is so strong in Europe is because of capitalist instability and leftist inability to challenge this instability. Why are we powerless? I think that may be because we are living in the past. Here in Serbia for example, "communist" parties simply won't forget about their hopes of Titoism and Stalinism. They try to play nostalgia card and it's true that quality of life for working class was many times better than today and most will acknowledge this (even right wing voters). The problem is that such time has passed long ago, and those "communist" parties are today reactionary by definition. Voters know this very well. And this is the case in most ex-"socialist" states. We need to find a way to reclaim heroic history of our forefathers from both Stalinists and social democrats and employ them in a new, present context of international revolutionary politics. How do we do this? Well hell if i know yet lol
Couple of questions if I may. If you deny the socialist model existed in USSR and Eastern Europe what model would you offer to workers? And would you please enlighten me what heroic history of social-democrats are you talking about? For clarity let us not include in social democrats Russian Bolsheviks. I love History (it has been my hobby for almost 50 years). But I would never claim that I know every country history. My interest is purely self educational.

[Exterminatus]

Couple of questions if I may. If you deny the socialist model existed in USSR and Eastern Europe what model would you offer to workers? And would you please enlighten me what heroic history of social-democrats are you talking about? For clarity let us not include in social democrats Russian Bolsheviks. I love History (it has been my hobby for almost 50 years). But I would never claim that I know every country history. My interest is purely self educational.

1. I don't know how future dictatorship of the proletariat will look like, that depends of so many factors. What i'm certain is that it'll be nothing like Eastern Block countries because that would mean there's no DotP at all

2. Well, i was mainly talking in regional context regarding WW2 anti-fascism in Yugoslavia which is in my opinion the greatest moment in the history of Balkan peoples, especially considering how many pointless ethnic struggles we've had before and after "socialism". And those heroes i call upon weren't social democrats, they were antifascists, marxists and communists. In the recent decades, and especially lately with this rise of neo fascism, right wing forces here want to rewrite history, presenting nazis and fascists like Ustase and Chetniks as heroic patriots who fought for their people and other nationalist nonsense. Many have fallen prey to this type of thinking, but there's also many who remember antifascist struggle with pride and i claim any serious new leftist force must utilize this heroic history to connect with like minded people in the region. Also many people who turn to nationalist populism do so because left doesn't exist as a viable opposition to current neoliberal government. I personally know many people like that and think we can still get them on our side.

[LionofTepelenë]

Of course they are dangerous.
Let me rephrase, then; It is a breeding ground for fascists trying to exploit workers for their own cause, because no one else is there to give them hope.
I don't blame the people for voting them, I blame the left for not being there.

The best tool for fascism is fear, that is exactly what they used to take Italy and Germany. They always use an enemy, and use conspiracy theories to gain more and more support. In our case now it is Muslim terrorists, however these terrorists are much closer to the fascists than meets the eyes.


There is nothing necessarily wrong with being religious at all, but I am skeptic to the notion that an imperialist religion does not annihilate cultures. It might be the Wahhabi influence, but nevertheless it is what it is right now. Wahhabi or not, it's only dividing the people further.
Many think Islam is very misunderstood, I see all aspects of this, don't get me wrong. It's not like I haven't been exposed to it. As I said, I think there is nothing wrong with religion as long as it doesn't establish it's own structures within social structures. Same goes with the church, they need to follow the rules and guidelines set by the community and not see their religion as something that differs them from other people.

I agree, but again Islam wasn't doing this before. All this shit was in the Saudi monarchy pre-1980s, you could even look up pictures of women without scarfs and with short skirts in Kabul! All of this is because America allowed the Saudis to export their ideology to other regions for oil.


Of course there was the Catalonian revolution, but like you said - there would need to be a global revolution in order to establish that. If not they would have ended up being the North Korea of Europe. How realistic is a global revolution, truly? Where would we "put" the capitalists, to put it bluntly?

Global revolution is not possible in our current situation, we are heavily outnumbered. However the concept of world revolution is the only way for it to go as we want it. However revolution isn't spontaneous either, it would require a long list of previous antagonisms between the capitalists and their underlings to get it to work, and to be honest this is starting on right now. Our situation is not that desperate for now, and people still are comfortable with their piece of the pie.

Anyway if something like this could happen, any capitalist who hadn't previously surrendered to the overwhelming force of the revolutionaries would lose any support and profits they had and surrender anyway.

[Futility Personified]

The left is catastrophically weak because the workers movements were completely hamstrung, the USSR existed, collapsed, or existed and collapsed, depending on how you look upon it, and because the standards of social democracy in contrast to the demands of capital were very difficult to uphold.

When society is completely dictated by the rich, all people will receive is going to be viewed from that perspective. People also fear what they do not understand, and also have the miserable habit of kicking the person below them instead of lashing out at the person above. The racist underpinnings of capitalism have become blatantly clear given the new refugee crisis, considering there is more than enough to go around for everyone, if only resources could be reallocated from those who have far too much, yet people are pretty much encouraged to fear and loathe their fellow creatures on the basis that they must be in direct competition with them for jobs and housing.

The successes in the LGBT movement are the few things that we have really had to celebrate since the labour movement went into serious decline, I want to say racial equality has improved... or at least legislation has been created, but it is not exactly hard to find a recent news piece citing some sort of oppressive policing relating to POC. Or how in general deprivation is much higher in places where most people are not white.

We are certainly living in interesting times. Corbyn is bringing social democracy back to the table (I have heard dodgy things about Sanders but let's be honest he'd be better than shitey old Clinton) but both of them are fighting their own parties tooth and nail just for the old concessions that were fought for 50-60 years ago.

Some people reject the left because they are technophiles, and are satisfied with the relentless parade of gadgets they are offered. Others reject it because they see it as inevitably authoritarian, or helplessly naieve. Some reject it because they are greedy, racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. The left doesn't really try and do much for the working class apart from mention it, really.

But if you just look around the world, you can find a compelling argument for communism/anarchism/socialism pretty much anywhere. Capitalism is killing the planet and forcing us all into competition, and the inevitable chaos is going to accelerate class antagonisms to something approaching revolution. In the meantime, groups doing outreach work with migrants, or helping in LGBT struggle, or trying to get people to join a union, shit-talking capitalism or just trying to get people to think of a better future down the line for us or our children are all proselyting in different forms. The bankruptcy of the current state of affairs is only going to become more obvious as things go on.

[AOHSBTS]

Hm. There is a lot here that I have to wonder about, are you actually a communist? You complain about Islam, open borders (and yet your parents are immigrants to your country..), you complain about safe spaces and "language policing" which I assume refers to "politically correct" language and then you go on to attack free market liberals while essentially defending the right wing who we must assume oppose free markets in turn? I think you may have clicked on the google wrong link my friend.

Anyhow, communism is not a red flag attached to a party which wins elections in a given country. It is not a platform which is tweaked to appeal to this or that demographic for this or that election cycle. Communism is the control of production by the working class for the purpose of direct consumption by the working class with the ultimate aim of abolishing the class itself in its entirety. This implies a great deal of changes that apparently will upset you greatly I'm afraid. Among them, non-existent borders. Solidarity, that is to say safe spaces, for those fleeing dangerous conditions in their places of origin regardless of their religious, cultural, social identification, etc.

Communism will not be something we all slide into as if its just another day. It is a struggle, one which involves confrontations with ourselves and the ideologies which infest our minds, yours most acutely as displayed here in your post, as much as with others externally. Be brave.

You fail to see the point of my post, it is that it's not allowed to have an open discussion about these things(the policing in the scene and, for instance, islam). I'm talking from my own experience when it comes to muslims, namely in my home country. My closest family isn't religious, neither were my grandparents. I'm not opposed to religion, I don't understand why the left is hesitant to discuss islam. There is obviously a fraction of it that is just as dangerous as the right wing extremists, or any other extremist group for that matter.

I rarely meet any relgious fanatics where I live now, the critique of muslims by the right wing in the country I currently live in is ugly and biased.
..And yes, I "complain" about open borders. No, I did not complain about open borders. I complained about the european left applauding the EU for "opening" their borders, the borders of Europe aren't open. If you don't care to read my other posts, they are planning on deporting the refugees because Euope wouldn't even be able to give these people decent living conditions if they wanted. I'm interested in hearing how other people think a communist state in their picture would deal with it- take for instance a refugee crisis or say, a cult of any sort?

For the record I've been politically active in communist parties for 10 years now(a decent part of my life), but I stopped attending meetings about a year ago, simply because the party I was active in were clueless students that just needed an excuse to drink together. I still vote for the left, I have no intention of doing otherwise.
I find it ridiculous that you are implying that my mind is infested by right wing ideology, who are you to say your abstract ideas about the workers struggle are communist? 90% of the communists I talk to have no idea whatsoever as to how they would apply their "long studies of Marx" in real life.


The reason the right is so strong in Europe is because of capitalist instability and leftist inability to challenge this instability. Why are we powerless? I think that may be because we are living in the past. Here in Serbia for example, "communist" parties simply won't forget about their hopes of Titoism and Stalinism. They try to play nostalgia card and it's true that quality of life for working class was many times better than today and most will acknowledge this (even right wing voters). The problem is that such time has passed long ago, and those "communist" parties are today reactionary by definition. Voters know this very well. And this is the case in most ex-"socialist" states. We need to find a way to reclaim heroic history of our forefathers from both Stalinists and social democrats and employ them in a new, present context of international revolutionary politics. How do we do this? Well hell if i know yet lol

It is unrealistic to try to recreate a system in the picture of Tito or Lenin, or Stalin for his supporters. But considering the state of the Balkans at the moment, I can kinda get why they're pulling the nostalgia card. I think the working conditions were better back then than now. But yeah, the left is living in the past.
Haha, A+ for that conclusion!

[AOHSBTS]

Quoting these long posts are really killing me-

@LionOfTepelenë
Of course it is the Saudis that have corrupted Islam, and thank you for saying this. It's ridiculous how the people are blind to the fact that their politicians "condemn" IS on one hand, and support the Saudis on the other. The west has completely obliterated the middle-east whith no other intention than destabilizing the countries. All these countries and their people have suffered immensely, and what do the people nowadays have to turn to when their lives are shattered? Nationalism or religion, or both combined.

I think the right wing extremists are the biggest threat to Europe right now, and as I said in an earlier post it's not the refugees that are causing chaos, it's the right wing.

@Futily Personified

You are absolutely right, the LGBT movement was something to be celebrated up until the point people started "kicking the person below them". As much as I enjoyed heated discussions on feminism with drunk people back in the day, if I'm honest I'm finding it difficult to defend the more recent parts of the movement.

I agree that helping your local community in any way you can is one of the most important things the left can do at this moment. It would be easier to convince people if they could actually see what the left can do for them. And that is how revolutionary Catalonia succeeded, no? At the same time it's important to know what you want, protesting is great, but not if it is protesting something as abstract as "capitalism".
As much as a global revolution would be wonderful, it has to start locally.

Fingers crossed for Corbyn!

[Recuperation]

You fail to see the point of my post, it is that it's not allowed to have an open discussion about these things(the policing in the scene and, for instance, islam). I'm talking from my own experience when it comes to muslims, namely in my home country. My closest family isn't religious, neither were my grandparents. I'm not opposed to religion, I don't understand why the left is hesitant to discuss islam. There is obviously a fraction of it that is just as dangerous as the right wing extremists, or any other extremist group for that matter.

I rarely meet any relgious fanatics where I live now, the critique of muslims by the right wing in the country I currently live in is ugly and biased.
..And yes, I "complain" about open borders. No, I did not complain about open borders. I complained about the european left applauding the EU for "opening" their borders, the borders of Europe aren't open. If you don't care to read my other posts, they are planning on deporting the refugees because Euope wouldn't even be able to give these people decent living conditions if they wanted. I'm interested in hearing how other people think a communist state in their picture would deal with it- take for instance a refugee crisis or say, a cult of any sort?

For the record I've been politically active in communist parties for 10 years now(a decent part of my life), but I stopped attending meetings about a year ago, simply because the party I was active in were clueless students that just needed an excuse to drink together. I still vote for the left, I have no intention of doing otherwise.
I find it ridiculous that you are implying that my mind is infested by right wing ideology, who are you to say your abstract ideas about the workers struggle are communist? 90% of the communists I talk to have no idea whatsoever as to how they would apply their "long studies of Marx" in real life.


I don't see any problem with discussing Islam in a negative fashion, what I do see a problem with is using that discussion as a thinly veiled racial attack against refugees. Which is how it has been used the majority of the time for last two decades. Your talking points sounded awfully familiar is all, if I misunderstood you then I apologize. The fact that 90% of workers, and that number is probably far too low, don't have the capacity to envision a life freed from wage labor and all its discontents demonstrates all too well that each of us are indeed infested with right wing ideology. Again its not a question of party meetings or abstract lectures.

The refugees should be organized and given a voice in Europe rather than just left to rot in camps or thrown helplessly into a semi-alien bureaucracy. The same could be said for the rest of us. But no I don't seriously expect the capitalist establishment to be able to address the crisis. Right or left, they are incapable or managing any crisis at this point. That doesn't mean I will be parroting any nativist lines anytime soon. Immigration happens, Germany and the rest of Europe will not turn into Syria and Iraq. Just as past nativist fears of American turning into China or Mexico or Japan or any number of anxieties have not come to fruition. They should not be deported, you are certainly right. Perhaps something should be done about that eh?

[GLF]

Tribal loyalties. It's easy. The populists play on tribal loyalties - whether it be race, culture, religion, whatever. The communists are rational in that we want to do away with them, but these things are still important to the proles because it's all they know. This is very hard to break through. It's really that simple.

I don't think conservatives are really making any gains at all. I think conservatism is just about dead and gone forever. Everyone I know on the left hates conservatism (obviously) and the funny thing is that most of those I know on the right also hate it. In Europe it's been dead and in America it's on it's last leg. All across the west, Reaganism and Thatcherism are quickly giving way to alternative rightism and populism. This is the death knell of capitalism as we know it. It's entering it's final stage before our eyes.

[blake 3:17]

I'd think it better to try to look at Left successes and figure out how to do them. Again, but different. The fight for universal healthcare in Canada was led by Tommy Douglas, a left Christian democratic socialist. It was also a product of very severe class struggle.

[John Nada]

"Why does a movement for the people have no support by the people?" Reminds me of this: https://newworldodor.info/entire-human-race-problematic-left-cant-work-with-them/ :laugh:

The question should be inverted. Why do movements against the people have the support of the people? I'd say it's inertia, and the support is largely passive. The right offers nothing but variants of going back to a mythologized past or keep things the same, as they imagine it.

This appeals to nostalgia and familiarity. It's shortsighted and immediately tangible. Best of all, you personally don't have to do anything but go with the flow. Anything goes wrong, it's some "sin" you committed, "market forces"(supposedly a natural uncontrollable force), a scapegoat of the "other" or the will of god. And you're told that "There is no alternative", "This is the best there is," "It could be better if it weren't for(insert scapegoat)," and "You'll be rewarded later, in this life or the hereafter". Their strength comes from the people's weakness.

Even on the "left", much of it currently wants to go back to the past. They may yearn for the days when there was, at least nominally, strong socialist movements that were taken seriously and a socialist camp in power that could counter the imperialist camp. There was actual attempts at an alternative to capitalism. They may speak of when there was a stronger worker movement, a vibrant civil rights movement, the old anti-war movements and newly liberated colonies finally in charge of their own destiny. The "good old day" when social democracy was the norm, a post-scarcity society was seriously pondered even be conservatives, and to some communism looked to be on the horizon.

Yet all hopes were dashed. Counterrevolution achieved final victory in virtually the entire Eastern Bloc. Each progressive reform was and is being undone. The worker movement was picked off, one by one. Many activists were safely cooped into the system. Radical ideas and arts were recuperated. Misleaders in the Third-World reconstituted themselves as a new comprador class for the indirect rule of neo-colonialism; the few that didn't were taken out in coups. Imperialist interventions continued. Radical organizations were infiltrated and destroyed, both from within and without. Prisons swelled up, crime and addictions increased, and police powers greatly increased for the "War on Drugs and the "War on Terror". Strikes, boycotts, protests and "direct actions" are increasingly effectively neutralized. Those that call themselves "socialist", "progressive" and even "communist" worked hand in hand with the right in this anti-worker onslaught.

In the wake of a losing Left, religious, patriarchal and nationalist reaction swooped in to fill the gaps. Promises of safety of the imagined past, stability of the present, reward in the hereafter.

If you speak of a better way than capitalism, many laypeople will probably agree. But the experience of defeat, the empricism, postmodernism and positivism which has hegemony in the superstructure, causes pessimism and resistance to the idea that communism is even possible. "That's be nice in theory, but won't work in practice".

There is few modern examples of any counter to capitalist hegemony. There's a few, like the Naxals in India, Rojava, Zapatistas in Chiapas, the CPP in the Philippines, colectivos in Venezuela, ect. but those have limitations and flaws to varying degrees. While IMO these are currently the highest level of subjective strengh on the Left with great potential, they're generally viewed as exceptions rather than the rule. Many will question their relevance in other contexts or chances of success in the long-term.

I say the objective conditions for revolution are approaching. Capitalism likely cannot withstand another crisis. What needs to be done is build up the subjective factor the people. Spread the idea of communism, counter reactionary thought. Strengthen the worker movement, as well as other liberation movements. Assault the capitalist superstructure in any way possible. Restore hope that a better world is possible.

[Burzhuin]

Do you have any other samples?

[Stirnerian]

There are several assumptions hidden here that ought to be dealt with first:

1. Communism is not a movement "for the people". "The People" is a nebulous abstraction. Communism is a movement for, and when it's effective of, the working class. By its very nature it must be exclusionary towards many groups that do not work; I'm not even confident that I have a place in it, being a lumpenproletarian (the majority of whom share interests with reactionary elements).

2. Accordingly, Communism cannot be realized except "from below". The experience of the Bolsheviks in the twentieth century has demonstrated that any attempt to induce class revolution by a "vanguard" consisting primarily of university educated middle-classmen inevitably fails. I cannot conceive of a Communism that isn't structurally organic, like the Parisian mob that took the Bastille before the bourgeois clubs and the bourgeois Parties interjected themselves into the Revolution.

I - or more likely some far distant döppleganger of mine - would probably be excluded from the Final Revolution Of History. But so would a great many of those fellow-travellers who have to date been so strangely ubiquitous in the Communist movement.

3. Communism is therefore dependent on the material conditions of the working class. Moreover, it is dependent on the conditions of the whole of the working class, in a universal sense.

Has capital made tremendous strides in producing a globally interconnected, interdependent world, even within our lifetimes? Unquestionably. Has it truly shaped a global society that outstrips the conditions that created the bourgeois as a class in the first - a real World Civilization, without boundaries and without barriers? No. Nation-states have not quite yet been dissolved by endless capital flows; language has not unified into a Babel tongue (the noble experiment in Esperanto last century notwithstanding); these things are happening in our time, but will assuredly not be completed in it.

We aren't in "late capitalism". While capitalism has revolutionized the means of production exponentially more rapidly than preceding social arrangements, it doesn't quite operate that quickly. The "progressive" work of capitalism goes on - it's just that progress often looks like a wheel rolling over a human skull.

4. I am convinced that the conditions for revolution are nowhere near us temporally; I am also convinced that they will come inevitably, inexorably (and universally, assuming that capitalism manages to reproduce itself off-planet - the technological and social conditions ought to remain relatively homogeneous despite any dispersal through space).

I am also convinced that the bourgeois don't actually require any of the old standbys of reaction we know - nationalism and religion. Indeed, I believe that their basic inclination as a class is to abolish these things ("... all that is solid..."), and that they will accomplish that preceding a universal social revolution.

Capital must flow. It must transcend national borders and become universal. And in a struggle between the bourgeois and a vestigial instrument of the old and barely-forgotten lords, the former will win every single time.

And now, one final prediction:

At some point, there will be a final confrontation between capital and the older forces preceding it (The Nation, The Church). Capital will win, and that victory will be taken for a Revolution. The countdown to its final demise will only begin at that moment.

[John Nada]

There are several assumptions hidden here that ought to be dealt with first: Indeed, there are several misconceptions in your post

1.The proletariat is the leading class. The class that can abolish class altogether. This doesn't mean the proletariat is a bunch of selfish assholes, but they're the leading subject of socialist revolutions. The other laboring classes(peasantry, petit-bourgeoisie, semi-proletariat, lumpenproletariat, ect.) will benefit too, even though they cannot lead a socialist revolution. They may be class allies, but waver. Hell in the long run, even the ex-bourgeoisie may benefit.

2. A virgin can't brag about how, based on masturbation, he/she is better at making love than a couple that broke up. Maybe he/she will be, but he/she hasn't attempted it yet.:lol:

If the Bolsheviks are a "failed model", then they are among the least failed of all models, regardless of how the USSR played out. It was not a conspiracy of petit-bourgeois intellectuals outwitting ignorant workers. That's a myth promulgated by Cold Warriors on how these evil men and women could take power, and by small sects to delude themselves into thinking a spontaneous uprising will give their tiny intellectual clique a surge in support.

Though most of the Bolsheviks' existence, workers made up half the members, 3/4 of members post-1905 revolution. In spite of absolutist oppression, it was a mass movement with tens of thousand of members and millions of supporters. That stuff about "conspiracy" and "secrecy" would more correspond to OPSEC or security culture in modern terns. Their model of insurrection, regardless of the state that followed, is a textbook example of a successful insurrection of that style. Elements of it (mass work, strikes, propaganda, combined legalism and illegalism, dual power, ect) is something that has, is and will be incorporated into revolutionary struggles. Likely in some countries may be the dominate model, with elements of other models.

3. Revolution depends on a complex mixture of objective and subjective factors relating to all classes. And it will proceed in an uneven manner globally, some quicker and easier than others.

Capitalism "progressive" mission has in the main been fulfilled. The remnants of pre-capitalism in the Third-World are maintained and in alliance with imperialist-capitalism. It will not dissolve the nation-state because the bourgeoisie are divided by nationality, regardless of rhetoric. Forcing a single language, particularly under capitalism, on every people is both undesirable and even reactionary. And the dictatorship of the proletariat can unite the world and finish any democratic tasks, with the possible world language emerging voluntarily.

4. "Near us"? If you mean the US, yeah. Don't have psychic powers to see thirty years from now, but yeah. However, the world's a big place. I can't say the same for other nations, because they may well be close to revolution.

I disagree that we have to wait for the bourgeoisie to basically ready make communism world-wide beforehand. That's an extremely stageist and mechanical way of looking at things. By the time capitalism gets around to finishing its supposed "progressive mission", we'll all be dead from climate change or nuclear war. "Socialism or barbarism."

[Verneinung]

Why does a movement for the people have no support by the people?

You can simplify things to: the left just sucks. One would first just have to acknowledge the fact that they other side has consistently dominated over the years.

Now, for one, the right is inherently together because of capital. The fact of that being the dominate social relation, something you must participate in, something you must succeed in to be relevant, something that functions without regard for your concerns or knowledge of it functioning, etc. Capital doesn't wait for people to be on the same page, it doesn't argue about the best way to move forward, etc., it simply functions. It is the dominate ideological framework into which everyone is born and must struggle with to overcome and must still exist within, in opposition, even after that.

You can just look at something as simple as communism. The West opposed communism with absolutely no qualms. And the same is sort of true for the sort of ambivalent support for/opposition to fascism. The West would have allowed the entire world to burn to the ground defending capital from communism (and not even as an actually threat, just an idea). Yet, on the left, you have people who are pacifists, opposed the Soviet Union on moral grounds, etc.

The behavior really doesn't just stop at anti-communism, as it is true across the board. There are no scruples, no morals, no qualms, no second thoughts, not really even any first thoughts: capital just functions, and reproduces, and kills with total abandon. Meanwhile, on the left, you have people who won't even offend people, who try to play both sides, who try to escape criticism, etc., and that is on top of total inherent lack of coordination in terms of ideas.

How to fix the problem with the left is blatantly obvious, because it has been the goal from the beginning. The proletariat is the only collective, unifying structure capable of revolution. And it is as simple as the proletariat, or really just any groups ("the people"), becoming aware of the situation and revolutionary.

Problem is, that the left are not the only people smart enough to have figured this out, but they do suck. So, when you are up against an opponent who is better than you, smarter than you, hungrier/more determined than you, more focused than you, has more resources than you, has more enthusiasm than you and doesn't care about any thing except winning, you are inevitably not going to beat that opponent. And that is a reality which certain people don't want to confront.

And just another way to put it: You are only as strong as your weakest link; and for the left, their weak link is not only weak, it is a part of the other team. You have bourgeois socialists, social democrats, reformists, progressives, liberals, etc., along with the traditional bourgeoisie and sympathizers, reactionaries, right-libertarians, etc., and even on your own side, libertarians, anarchists, etc. The problem being that you have to beat everyone for ideas. You have to realize that all of "the people" who are not capitalists are property of the left, and separate that from the people advocating for those ideas (or really the ideas themselves), who (which) are your enemies.