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ckaihatsu
10th March 2016, 19:36
Europe: Open the Borders Now, Unconditionally! -- By Dominique Ferré (from Tribune des Travailleurs / Workers Tribune, France)


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http://socialistorganizer.org/open-borders/

Concerning the 'Immigrant Crisis' in Europe:
'Open the Borders Now, Unconditionally!'

By Dominique Ferré

http://socialistorganizer.org/wp-content/uploads/03Brussels-web2-articleLarge.jpg

[Note: The following article is reprinted from Issue No. 29 (March 9, 2016) of Tribune des Travailleurs (Workers Tribune), the weekly newspaper of the Democratic Independent Workers Party / POID of France. The translation is by The Organizer newspaper.]

Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, addressing the immigrants, declared: "Do not come to Europe!" -- as if the hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children had thrown themselves willingly onto the road to exile!

Immediately after these words were spoken, the instructions of the president of the European Council were put into action: The Macedonian police fired tear gas canisters at close range as a way of welcoming the refugee families fleeing the wars and IMF plans that have ravaged their countries. This occurred on the Macedonian-Greek border, where these refugees, who had been driven from their homes by the wars in Syria and Afghanistan, had been warehoused. It was here that their shouts of "Open the Borders!" rang out.

"Welcome these Men, Women and Children Fleeing the Barbarism that YOU Have Created!"

Yes: "Open the borders! Welcome these men, women and children fleeing the barbarism that you have created!" Such should be the unanimous demand of the labor movement. It is an elementary democratic demand, consistent with the legacy of the French Revolution, which "declared war on the tyrants" and gave asylum to the victims of oppression. Because who, after all, is responsible for the wave of hundreds of thousands of refugees crossing the Aegean Sea at the peril of their lives, and traveling thousands of miles on foot, robbed of their meager possessions by the mafiosi "smugglers" of all sorts?

"War Is the Main Cause of this Exodus!"

"The war in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan; and the repression and the economic difficulties in the Middle East and Africa continue to force many people to try and reach Europe," wrote the editorialists of the International New York Times on March 1, 2016. "War," explained an activist of the Left Radical of Afghanistan in our previous issue [of Tribune des Travailleurs/Workers Tribune - Tr. Note], which was caused and sustained for decades in our country by the Great Powers, is the main reason for this mass exodus." In such circumstances, the least one would expect from these warmakers -- from those who have destroyed Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria and left them in ruins -- would be to welcome these refugees in a dignified manner, wouldn't it? But, no, it will be objected, "This is not realistic, . . . the flow of refugees will never end!"

For an Immediate End to All Imperialist Interventions!

To this objection, the labor movement should respond clearly and distinctly: "The immigrant crisis" is the result of the barbaric imperialist wars and interventions [see sidebar article]. It's a fact: The five-year tenure of [French President François Hollande] has witnessed a record number of foreign military interventions (Mali, Central African Republic, Iraq, Syria, and the continued occupation of Afghanistan). Putting an end to the hundreds of thousands of men and women fleeing war demands an immediate end to all imperialist interventions! All troops from the U.S., France, Britain and other countries should be withdrawn immediately from all the countries in which they are intervening! All intervention by the proxy forces of the Great Powers -- such as Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey -- must stop; these forces have provided weapons to the armed groups in Syria, leaving the country mired in bloodshed.

There Is "No Way" to Welcome All of Them"?

But how, we will be asked, would it be possible to accommodate all these people at a time when all the European countries are already experiencing a catastrophic social situation? After all, wasn't it then "Socialist" Prime Minister Michel Rocard who stated, "We cannot accommodate all the misery of the world"? And didn't the Greek government just announce its inability to provide the funding needed to provide shelter for the tens of thousands of immigrants?

But how can the Greek government provide funding for this effort -- or for anything else, for that matter -- when it accepts to implement all the dictates of the European Union and the IMF, thus condemning the Greek people to continue sinking into poverty? "There are no resources for the refugees," or so we are told. But the truth is that under the iron heel of the austerity plans of the European Union and the IMF there are no resources for anyone; there are no resources to address the needs of the workers and people of Greece, Italy, France, Poland, and beyond.

What is needed is to put an end to the "Memorandums", "Responsibility Pacts", and bailout gifts of billions and billions of euros to the capitalists and speculators; only then will there be funding for everyone! This should be the unanimous position of all workers' organizations throughout Europe!

Let Us Not Allow Them to Divide Us!

At the very moment when the Macedonian police were dispersing the refugees, the French police were using bulldozers to raze to the ground the so-called "Jungle" in Calais [1], the largest slum in Europe. (Of course, this will only lead to the creation of new slums.) In Calais, where decades of deindustrialization have thrown the working population into the ranks of the unemployed (18% officially), adventurers are seeking to promote racist campaigns.

"Divide and rule" has been the watchword of the masters ever since the Roman Empire. In the words of our comrades of the Democratic Independent Workers Party (POID) in Calais: "Let us not allow them to divide us! These are the same governments that here are organizing a social war against the Labour Code and that over there are crushing the people under their bombs!"

More than ever, it is time to raise high the banner of working class international solidarity against the capitalist system, which is the root cause of war and exploitation. More than ever, "Workers of the World, Unite!"

- - - - -

Endnote

[1] Calais is a major port in Northern France. It is the entry point to Britain by ferries and through the "Channel Tunnel".

* * * * * * * * *

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Barbarism in the Heart of 'Civilized' Europe

Ten thousand children among the refugees are said to have "disappeared" since their arrival in Europe, according to figures provided by Europol at the end of January 2016. "Disappeared"? The term is somewhat hypocritical: They were kidnapped by networks of mafias that have made money hands over fists through trafficking of all sorts, prostitution, and other criminal activities -- all of which flourish under a decaying capitalist system.

When Eurostat "Discovers" that Asylum Seekers Come From Countries at War . . .

A study by the European statistics-gathering agency Eurostat published on March 4 indicates that in 2015, 1.2 million people applied for asylum in member countries of the European Union -- twice as many as in 2014. Where did these asylum seekers come from?

In 2015, 362,800 asylum seekers were from Syria (twice as many as in 2014), 178,200 were from Afghanistan (four times more than in 2014), and 121,500 came from Iraq (seven times more than in 2014). These are the countries which, one after the other, have been subjected to foreign military intervention under the leadership of the United States.

Iraq: First there was the war in 1991, which was followed by 10 years of a murderous UN embargo, then a second war in 2003, followed by more than 10 years of occupation, and then a third military operation in 2015.

Afghanistan: First there was the NATO military intervention 2001 -- and the occupation and war have not stopped ever since.

Syria: It has been ravaged for the past five years by a civil war fueled by the United States through its allies in the region: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. In March 2015, the U.S. NGO Physicians for Social Responsibility (PSR) estimated that at least 1.3 million civilians have been killed since the beginning of the "War on Terrorism" launched by George W. Bush in 2001. Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, a journalist with The Guardian of London, estimates, for his part, that the number of victims is closer to 4 million people.

Those responsible for the "drama of the immigrants" therefore have names: Bush, Obama, Sarkozy, Hollande, Cameron, Merkel, as well as their governments and the NATO leaders.

RedSonRising
11th March 2016, 06:29
Bit much m8?

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 13:39
I am curious: EU countries screaming that they are democratic countries. Why no any of those countries hold referendum? I am just wondering what would be the result of referendum let's say in Germany. Any idea?

Luís Henrique
11th March 2016, 15:16
I am curious: EU countries screaming that they are democratic countries. Why no any of those countries hold referendum? I am just wondering what would be the result of referendum let's say in Germany. Any idea?

It would be a landslide against immigration, and it would just give a platform for the Euro-nativist far right.

Luís Henrique

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 17:08
Do you think the sway to the right of French voters in last local elections has nothing to do with immigration?

Rudolf
11th March 2016, 17:55
Do you think the sway to the right of French voters in last local elections has nothing to do with immigration?


do you think it has nothing to do with the bourgeoisie? The swing to the right isn't because of immigration it's because of how that's framed by the french bourgeoisie and its lackies by utilising their means of 'mental production'.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 18:07
I think nobody is discarding bourgeoisie propaganda and brainwashing. That is a given. I have couple of friends living in Germany and UK, but from their perspective, as I was told, all this new immigrants are taking JOBS from local people. Let us see. Who is benefited from that? Certainly not workers. My position is simple what is GOOD for bourgeoisie is BAD for Proletariat.

Armchair Partisan
11th March 2016, 18:12
I have couple of friends living in Germany and UK, but from their perspective, as I was told, all this new immigrants are taking JOBS from local people.

Yeah, fascists say the darndest things. The rest of us realize that immigrants don't take jobs from "local people" - they *fill* the jobs that the capitalists (who, by the way, own the means of production) create, while workers - instead of acting united against the capitalists - bicker with the immigrants and line up behind their national bourgeoisie.


Let us see. Who is benefited from that? Certainly not workers.

The immigrant workers benefited, for one. Or do you now also support "Socialism in One Skin Color"?


My position is simple what is GOOD for bourgeoisie is BAD for Proletariat.

Aside from the fact that your position is laughable - would you then support uncontrolled immigration in Hungary (where the national bourgeoisie is clearly anti-immigration, or at least for the limiting of immigration) while denying it in Germany (where the national bourgeoisie is pro-immigration)?

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 18:16
Do you think the sway to the right of French voters in last local elections has nothing to do with immigration?Suppose that it "has to do with immigration" (whatever that means), then what? I am very interested to hear what you have to say about that.

(Be careful not to slip, though.)

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 18:34
Yeah, fascists say the darndest things. The rest of us realize that immigrants don't take jobs from "local people" - they *fill* the jobs that the capitalists (who, by the way, own the means of production) create, while workers - instead of acting united against the capitalists - bicker with the immigrants and line up behind their national bourgeoisie.

I would not call my friends fascists. Their construction workers and we used to work together for my short time stay in UK. One of them was communist, two other members of Labor party. But they explain it simple. Boss would hire somebody who agrees to do the same work for half of pay in heart bit. I hope you would not argue this point. I would like to listen to your advise how fight it in one small construction company. But that is not exactly the main point WHY their against immigration. Because of majority, their words not mine, immigrants from Africa and Asia do not intend to work. Their targeting welfare. Actually my friend from Germany did not even mention job competition but went straight to the point of welfare.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 18:41
Suppose that it "has to do with immigration" (whatever that means), then what? I am very interested to hear what you have to say about that.

(Be careful not to slip, though.)
Actually I expect somebody from European Left would advise what point should we use in communist propaganda. And how to turn situation around to our, left, benefits. Who know probably I would have to deal with the issue in my work. And I would like to hear what other people think. So far, in the States until Trump it was not an issue. But who knows?

Counterculturalist
11th March 2016, 18:42
So they're stealing jobs from people while on welfare?

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 18:44
Actually I expect somebody from European Left would advise what point should we use in communist propaganda. And how to turn situation around to our, left, benefits. Who know probably I would have to deal with the issue in my work. And I would like to hear what other people think. So far, in the States until Trump it was not an issue. But who knows?You don't start with propaganda. Propaganda is derived from your position. What is your position?

So, suppose that the rise of the far-right "has to do with immigration" (=> please elaborate on this), what would your position on that matter be? Only when you know your position can you begin to work on propaganda.

hexaune
11th March 2016, 18:45
Burzhuin I would not call my friends fascists. Their construction workers and we used to work together for my short time stay in UK. One of them was communist, two other members of Labor party. But they explain it simple. Boss would hire somebody who agrees to do the same work for half of pay in heart bit. I hope you would not argue this point. I would like to listen to your advise how fight it in one small construction company. But that is not exactly the main point WHY their against immigration. Because of majority, their words not mine, immigrants from Africa and Asia do not intend to work. Their targeting welfare. Actually my friend from Germany did not even mention job competition but went straight to the point of welfare.


Wow, you are coming out with all of the arguments of the right/far right. The majority of immigrants do not come over to avoid work and claim benefits, you can't have it both ways. One minute they are steeling all of the jobs, next minute they are all workshy and only want to claim benefits!

Contrary to the bullshit that comes out of rags like the daily mail,its not that easy to get benefits in the UK and they are far from generous. Why would someone looking to improve their lives want to be stuck on £70 a week? Its really not very much to live on.

Isn't international solidarity of workers meant to be a cornerstone of communism? Or does your belief in socialism in one country lead to belief its ok to have workers pitted against workers based on where they come from?

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 18:47
So they're stealing jobs from people while on welfare?
You would be surprised, but when I used to live in Canada almost everybody who received welfare worked under the table. My stay in UK was too short to form the opinion about that.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 18:52
You would be surprised, but when I used to live in Canada almost everybody who received welfare worked under the table. My stay in UK was too short to form the opinion about that.1) Statistics please.
2) Working under the table is usually not a full-time job.
3) I would be doing the same thing if I could and felt like it.

hexaune
11th March 2016, 18:54
You would be surprised, but when I used to live in Canada almost everybody who received welfare worked under the table. My stay in UK was too short to form the opinion about that.


Sure you could find examples of people that do, but it is a tiny proportion. For starters if the majority did so, unemployment figures would be through the roof and would never come down (currently sitting at 5%, even if everyone was claiming fraudulenty it would still be a tiny proportion)

Despite 6-7years with the government over in the UK desperate to prove that people on the dole are frauds and workshy and increasing the funding to find fraudulent claimants and running a campaign calling for people to grass on them, there is still only less than 1% of claims found to be fraudulent (there is a greater level of underpayments in error than overpayment due to fraud).

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud

The fact that you a spouting all the usual right wing myths which even a minimal amount of digging, shows to be false, really says a lot about you.

Counterculturalist
11th March 2016, 18:56
You would be surprised, but when I used to live in Canada almost everybody who received welfare worked under the table. My stay in UK was too short to form the opinion about that.

I currently live in Canada, and yeah, I have known some people who received welfare and worked under the table, or supplemented their incomes illegally. None were immigrants.

That's not the point, though. You claim that immigrants steal jobs from native-born workers, and also that they don't want to work and show up just to abuse welfare. You're being incoherent.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 19:00
How do you steal jobs actually? Did immigrants steal the contracts of your friends, erased their names and write down their own names?

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:03
You don't start with propaganda. Propaganda is derived from your position. What is your position?

So, suppose that the rise of the far-right "has to do with immigration" (=> please elaborate on this), what would your position on that matter be? Only when you know your position can you begin to work on propaganda.
Since I am not in Europe I can only watch. I would like to learn how European leftists going to fight anti-immigration sentiment of, as I understood, majority of European population. My position is simple as for first step to force the country Government to pass the law banning to pay below minimum wages considering the wages would be sufficient to live. But I do not think it is achievable. In current situation bourgeoisie would encourage anti-immigration sentiments and use cheap immigrant labor to their benefits. I think petite bourgeoisie (owners of small businesses) would benefit from the situation even more.

hexaune
11th March 2016, 19:11
Since I am not in Europe I can only watch. I would like to learn how European leftists going to fight anti-immigration sentiment of, as I understood, majority of European population. My position is simple as for first step to force the country Government to pass the law banning to pay below minimum wages considering the wages would be sufficient to live. But I do not think it is achievable. In current situation bourgeoisie would encourage anti-immigration sentiments and use cheap immigrant labor to their benefits. I think petite bourgeoisie (owners of small businesses) would benefit from the situation even more.

Most if not all european governments already have minimum wages laws. This is a none issue, workers need to collectively (i.e. incl. immigrant workers) fight for higher minimum wage levels/higher wages with their bosses depending on which is higher. Immigration is not the problem, we have absorbed much great numbers of immigrants in the past.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:11
1) Statistics please.
2) Working under the table is usually not a full-time job.
3) I would be doing the same thing if I could and felt like it.
I cannot give you statistic. But in our four stories (16 apartments) building after two years I knew everybody. One, if I remember correctly, was full time student. Actually that one is writing to you right now. And one worked full time in warehouse.

Armchair Partisan
11th March 2016, 19:12
I would not call my friends fascists. Their construction workers and we used to work together for my short time stay in UK. One of them was communist, two other members of Labor party. But they explain it simple. Boss would hire somebody who agrees to do the same work for half of pay in heart bit. I hope you would not argue this point. I would like to listen to your advise how fight it in one small construction company. But that is not exactly the main point WHY their against immigration. Because of majority, their words not mine, immigrants from Africa and Asia do not intend to work. Their targeting welfare. Actually my friend from Germany did not even mention job competition but went straight to the point of welfare.

Very interesting. Others have already answered this part for me, so I'm just wondering what you would say to the other two points I made in my last post.

hexaune
11th March 2016, 19:13
I cannot give you statistic. But in our four stories (16 apartments) building after two years I knew everybody. One, if I remember correctly, was full time student. Actually that one is writing to you right now. And one worked full time in warehouse.

I've already posted figures from the UK that show it is trivial, I doubt even if canada has 50x the number (which it won't), 50x fuck all is still fuck all.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:15
How do you steal jobs actually? Did immigrants steal the contracts of your friends, erased their names and write down their own names?

I do not know, but that was my friends argument. They live in UK, I do not. So I can repeat their arguments.

Armchair Partisan
11th March 2016, 19:17
I do not know, but that was my friends argument. They live in UK, I do not. So I can repeat their arguments.

Let's cut the mystification then. What do you think of your friends' arguments? What merits do they have, in what do you think they are wrong?

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 19:20
I agree. You keep repeating the arguments of your friends, but you are very unclear about what you believe.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:33
I agree. You keep repeating the arguments of your friends, but you are very unclear about what you believe.

I know my friends as honest people. If I did not trust them, I would not bring their arguments.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:36
I believe we, as leftists, have a challenge. And I am curious how European comrades are going to deal with it.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 19:39
Let's cut the mystification then. What do you think of your friends' arguments? What merits do they have, in what do you think they are wrong?
Last time I was in UK ten years ago. So I can only trust my friends since I have no personal knowledge either to deny or support their opinions.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 20:06
I know my friends as honest people. If I did not trust them, I would not bring their arguments.That's not the point. You keep talking about your friends, what they say and think. But you never tell us what you think.

I have no trouble believing your friends are honest, but I don't care much about that. I cannot ask them to elaborate on what they say, since I am not talking to them.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 20:13
That's not the point. You keep talking about your friends, what they say and think. But you never tell us what you think.

I have no trouble believing your friends are honest, but I don't care much about that. I cannot ask them to elaborate on what they say, since I am not talking to them.

I am thinking what to tell my coworkers in our local union and my neighbors when this issue will become actual in the States.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 20:17
I am thinking what to tell my coworkers in our local union and my neighbors when this issue will become actually in the States.Before moving on to what you should tell other people, perhaps it's better to find out what you actually believe?

Step 1) Developing your own thoughts on the matter with proper research and study.
Step 2) Finding the means to communicate this in an efficient manner to your co-workers, friends and family.

Rudolf
11th March 2016, 20:28
I would not call my friends fascists. Their construction workers and we used to work together for my short time stay in UK. One of them was communist, two other members of Labor party. But they explain it simple. Boss would hire somebody who agrees to do the same work for half of pay in heart bit. I hope you would not argue this point. I would like to listen to your advise how fight it in one small construction company. But that is not exactly the main point WHY their against immigration. Because of majority, their words not mine, immigrants from Africa and Asia do not intend to work. Their targeting welfare. Actually my friend from Germany did not even mention job competition but went straight to the point of welfare.

One was never a communist. They're just idiots.

The same argument used here can also be used against women, the young etc. In fact employers bringing in younger workers on worse conditions is really common. Do you or your friends oppose 18 year olds getting a job? No you don't, do you? So why people from another land? I kniow why and it begins with an 'X'.

As for welfare.. your friends don't know what they're talking about. African and asian immigrants wanting to claim benefits and not work? Hahahaha. They won't get a penny from the govt. If someone is subject to immigration controls, that is they do not have a permanent right to live here they can't claim unemployment benefit or any benefit that's means tested. The only people who can are British citizens and those with a legal right to live here permanently and even then they have to have lived here for atleast 3 months.

I would like to point out an obvious issue here, though. If someone can be sacked and they have no right to unemployment benefit, if someone can be hired and have no right to in-work benefits, how does this help those that do? As a British citizen and thus entitled to claim means tested benefits, the existence of people who can't actually hinders me as they are way more desperate than i am and thus they're more likely to sell their labour at a lower rate than me. The only solution is for them to have the same entitlements to benefits as i do.

KaneLives
11th March 2016, 23:39
But that is not exactly the main point WHY their against immigration. Because of majority, their words not mine, immigrants from Africa and Asia do not intend to work. Their targeting welfare. Actually my friend from Germany did not even mention job competition but went straight to the point of welfare.

Do your friends really believe that people are going to travel across the earth simply to live on a pittance? There seems to be this view that people are coming over and somehow living lives of luxury and living great lives on benefits. It's difficult to claim benefits now as another user pointed out above. They definitely are not living the dream as some believe. Those who do say stuff like this are people who are privileged enough so that they don't have to rely on benefits in order to survive. They should be happy that they can live their lives without having to resort to benefits as others must as a result of the society we live in.

I'm not surprised by these views coming from these kinds of people really, after all these are generally the same people who believe we should be leaving men, women and children to drown and refuse them any medical treatment when they are only simply trying to seek a better life. Doesn't a human being deserve to live a decent fucking life on this planet? These are the same views many seem to have on those on any form of benefit. It's simply a load of nonsense that's pushed by the media to take attention off of the real problems. Yet more vilification projected onto the poor and none placed on the reasons why this is happening.

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 23:43
Before moving on to what you should tell other people, perhaps it's better to find out what you actually believe?

Step 1) Developing your own thoughts on the matter with proper research and study.
Step 2) Finding the means to communicate this in an efficient manner to your co-workers, friends and family.

Did you ever work with workers? I still remember how first time during the friendly discussion I openly admitted that I am communist. I wish you were there when my co-workers faces grew somber and almost half or them just got up and left. You can call them names, but they are workers. Of course it is easier to come to group of people who believe in Socialism or Communism. But who is going to bring workers on your site?

Burzhuin
11th March 2016, 23:50
One was never a communist. They're just idiots.

The same argument used here can also be used against women, the young etc. In fact employers bringing in younger workers on worse conditions is really common. Do you or your friends oppose 18 year olds getting a job? No you don't, do you? So why people from another land? I kniow why and it begins with an 'X'.

As for welfare.. your friends don't know what they're talking about. African and asian immigrants wanting to claim benefits and not work? Hahahaha. They won't get a penny from the govt. If someone is subject to immigration controls, that is they do not have a permanent right to live here they can't claim unemployment benefit or any benefit that's means tested. The only people who can are British citizens and those with a legal right to live here permanently and even then they have to have lived here for atleast 3 months.

I would like to point out an obvious issue here, though. If someone can be sacked and they have no right to unemployment benefit, if someone can be hired and have no right to in-work benefits, how does this help those that do? As a British citizen and thus entitled to claim means tested benefits, the existence of people who can't actually hinders me as they are way more desperate than i am and thus they're more likely to sell their labour at a lower rate than me. The only solution is for them to have the same entitlements to benefits as i do.
Probably they are. I doubt it. But try to start discussion with somebody by calling them idiots. When you are young and have a lack of patience it would probably work, since nobody would take you seriously. Unlike you I have no such luxury.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 23:51
Did you ever work with workers? I still remember how first time during the friendly discussion I openly admitted that I am communist. I wish you were there when my co-workers faces grew somber and almost half or them just got up and left. You can call them names, but they are workers. Of course it is easier to come to group of people who believe in Socialism or Communism. But who is going to bring workers on your site?You're still only focusing on the communication aspects. I repeat: what do you believe? Being a communist doesn't mean that you automatically have a correct stance on immigration.

And for the record: yes, I do work with workers, being a worker myself.

Burzhuin
12th March 2016, 00:08
You're still only focusing on the communication aspects. I repeat: what do you believe? Being a communist doesn't mean that you automatically have a correct stance on immigration.

And for the record: yes, I do work with workers, being a worker myself.
I believe in proletarian internationalism. But it has to be TWO WAY ROAD. And my experience (I have been communist for 30 years) tells that majority of workers I came across understand solidarity simple: I have to support him (or them) but not another way around. Unfortunately I have plenty of examples. But I have come across really good workers who claim to be non-partisan, but they are ready as of right now to go to Socialism. Those few and t my experience living in Socialism keeps me going.

Comrade #138672
12th March 2016, 00:13
I believe in proletarian internationalism. But it has to be TWO WAY ROAD. And my experience (I have been communist for 30 years) tells that majority of workers I came across understand solidarity simple: I have to support him (or them) but not another way around. Unfortunately I have plenty of examples. But I have come across really good workers who claim to be non-partisan, but they are ready as of right now to go to Socialism. Those few and t my experience living in Socialism keeps me going.OK. You are finally taking actual stances without invoking your friends. That's good. But what do you mean by "two way road" and how does it relate to immigration?

Rudolf
12th March 2016, 00:54
Probably they are. I doubt it. But try to start discussion with somebody by calling them idiots. When you are young and have a lack of patience it would probably work, since nobody would take you seriously. Unlike you I have no such luxury.

Im not trying to start a discussion with them, obviously. Tbh, i don't even think they exist. Instead i think it's a rhetorical prop you use to hide behind so you don't have to own up to your nationalist sentiments and get criticised by everyone here.

Thirsty Crow
12th March 2016, 04:27
Let's talk facts pertaining to the UK:


Asylum seekers get just £37.77 a week - 30% below the poverty line. They are not allowed to claim other benefits.


The Government's own figures show that migrants and refugees make a huge overall contribution to national wealth. They made a net contribution of around #2.5 billion to income tax in 1999-2000. This means they bring in #800 million a year more than the cost of running the entire asylum and immigration system.


Migrants have made a massive contribution to the NHS from its start in 1948. Today, 23% of doctors and 47% of nurses were born outside the UK. Many nurses were trained in their countries of origin, paid for by the taxpayers of poor nations like Zambia and Nigeria.

Asylum seekers and migrants do not block doctors' waiting lists. GPs are allowed to refuse any new patients if their lists are full. Asylum seekers that are refused by GPs have to go to the Accident and Emergency ward at their nearest hospital if they need treatment- which is far more expensive.

http://libcom.org/library/you-are-being-lied-to-about-asylum-seekers

And finally, the big taking-our-jobs bogeyman. They're not you're jobs, far from it; the jobs provided with the incomes attached to them are solely the product of capitalists wanting to hire.

Then you can turn against other people, Americans or Britons from run down regions migrating and actually making this hell of competing for existence on the labor market harder. But no one does that. Why?

Simply because the migrants are Asian. And one thing about all of this is that principles aren't nice things to get rid of when it gets really hot; principles, like that of world working class solidarity, are themselves pragmatic in that not a single damn good thing can be achieved by flaunting it. And that's to leave open the question of personal ethics - yup I've said it - of a person wanting to "defend" the borders.

Sewer Socialist
12th March 2016, 04:45
Firstly, the idea that "immigrants" are stealing the jobs of "workers" is just flat out racist, since it implies immigrants, even those with jobs, are not workers.

Secondly, if someone is "stealing" a job, then it would be the boss who takes it from one worker for the purpose of giving it to another.

Thirdly, asking "have you ever worked with workers?" is the stupidest question I can recall seeing on Revleft. No, I work with non-workers, of course. Who the fuck else would I have worked with?

Burzhuin, your posts are turning this entire board into Opposing Ideologies. Actually, your posts are worse than those of any of the restricted posters who have posted recently. 100% shitposts.

Burzhuin
12th March 2016, 12:11
OK. You are finally taking actual stances without invoking your friends. That's good. But what do you mean by "two way road" and how does it relate to immigration?
Wow, where should I start. Soviet workers between wars expressed so much solidarity and what receive in response? When war came only countries helped Soviet workers fight Nazism were Mongolia, Yugoslavia and USA. Should I remind you about stance of workers in each European country?

Durruti's friend
12th March 2016, 12:43
Wow, where should I start. Soviet workers between wars expressed so much solidarity and what receive in response? When war came only countries helped Soviet workers fight Nazism were Mongolia, Yugoslavia and USA. Should I remind you about stance of workers in each European country?
What the fuck are you talking about?

Why are you even on this site? Literally, why? The admins should have banned you a long time ago; at the very least you should have noticed that no one here cares about your xenophobic rants and left yourself. There's no use in arguing with people like you, we can give you statistics, historical references, whatever, and you're still going to repeat the same rubbish over and over again.

If you prefer anecdotal evidence, I could tell you that the country I live in has recently gone through an ethnic-sectarian bloodbath so any form of jingoistic rhetoric has a nice "fuck off" from me. It's something we as communists fight against on a daily basis and if you don't like that, you're not a communist.

"My friends say..." no one cares about your imaginary friends. This will sound harsh but you can fuck off with your anti-immigrant, islamophobic trash-talk to wherever you please, just don't stay here. This forum has been shit lately anyway and the likes of you just make it worse. I mean, hell, the sparts are banned but this is tolerated?

Comrade #138672
12th March 2016, 14:26
Wow, where should I start. Soviet workers between wars expressed so much solidarity and what receive in response? When war came only countries helped Soviet workers fight Nazism were Mongolia, Yugoslavia and USA. Should I remind you about stance of workers in each European country?So what does the UK have to do with it? What does Canada have to do with it? Are European/Canadian immigrants invading Russia and stealing the jobs of Russians? Is that what you are trying to say?

Please try to be coherent, because I find it very difficult to make sense of this all.