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ckaihatsu
7th March 2016, 21:10
From:


North Korea invents hangover free alcohol

http://www.revleft.com/vb/north-korea-invents-t195141/index.html?t=195141





Hmmmmm, the 19th century 'ether' seems to be as good as any at this point since we still don't have an adequate theory for how gravity works....





Empty space, curved space, and the ether

Newtonian gravity theory assumes that gravity propagates instantaneously across empty space, i.e. it is believed to be a form of action at a distance. However, in a private letter Newton himself dismissed this idea:

That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without the mediation of any thing else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man, who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it.1

Newton periodically toyed with the idea of an all-pervading ether filling his ‘absolute space’, and thought that the cause of gravity must be a spiritual agency, which he understood to mean ‘God’.

The need to postulate an ether is underlined by G. de Purucker:

We either have to admit the existence of [the] ether or ethers, i.e., of this extremely tenuous and ethereal substance which fills all space, whether interstellar or interplanetary or inter-atomic and intra-atomic, or accept actio in distans – action at a distance, without intervening intermediary or medium of transmission; and such actio in distans is obviously by all known scientific standards an impossibility. Reason, common sense, logic . . . demand the existence of such universally pervading medium, by whatever name we may choose to call it . . .2




http://davidpratt.info/gravity.htm





The Science forum is totally being misused. RevLeft needs to become a hub for peer review of proletarian science.


---


http://discovermagazine.com/2008/may/02-three-words-that-could-overthrow-physics


Discover Magazine: The magazine of science, technology, and the future


Home»May»Three Words That Could Overthrow Physics: “What Is Magnetism?”


FROM THE MAY 2008 ISSUE


Three Words That Could Overthrow Physics: “What Is Magnetism?”
The standard model still doesn't describe magnets' spooky action at a distance.

By Bruno Maddox|Thursday, April 24, 2008
RELATED TAGS: SUBATOMIC PARTICLES, EINSTEIN
65

When Pliny the Elder first beheld a magnet, he was utterly blown away. “What phenomenon is more astonishing?” he wrote later. “Where has nature shown greater audacity?” In the fifth century, St. Augustine of Hippo agreed, declaring himself “thunder*struck” by the sight of a magnet lifting several metal rings. Magnets, he announced, were proof that miracles were real and that God, therefore, existed. “Who would not be amazed,” Augustine marveled, “at this virtue of the stone?” Certainly the 4-year-old Albert Einstein was amazed. When his father showed him a compass, it was young Albert’s first clue, he later wrote, that there was “something behind things, something deeply hidden,” and he spent his life trying to find it.

What was it that so impressed these men? These giants? It was that a magnet could move things without touching them. In science this feat is known as “action at a distance,” and it was something that used to impress people. People would see a magnet move a piece of metal, or a moon trapped in orbit around a planet, or a man in a restaurant levitate a saltshaker just by looking at it, and they would wonder how it was possible. After all, as Isaac Newton pointed out in his Principia, the notion “that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum without the mediation of anything else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity that I believe no man who has in philosophic matters a competent faculty of thinking could ever fall into it.”

Me neither. But it would appear that guys like Einstein, Newton, and myself —guys who see Thing A controlling Thing B at a distance and wonder about it—are all of a sudden rather thin on the ground. You see, at the end of last year, while vacationing with my family at an undisclosed rural location, I found myself reclining by a fireplace with a book titled Electronics for Dummies by Gordon McComb and Earl Boysen.

On page 10 of that volume, I read that electrons repelled each other without touching, in the same way that two magnets will if you align them with their like poles facing. At this point, realizing that I must have either slept through or forgotten the high school physics class where it was explained how magnets manage that singular feat of interacting with each other at a distance, I set out on what I assumed would be a minutes-long odyssey to understand the phenomenon. Seventy-one days later, I am here with astonishing findings.

For one thing, as far as I can tell, nobody knows how a magnet can move a piece of metal without touching it. And for another—more astonishing still, perhaps—nobody seems to care.

This information was not easy to come by. My copy of Electronics for Dummies now shares a shelf with Mathematics of Classical and Quantum Physics by Frederick Byron Jr. and Robert Fuller. Should a doctor at any point take a cross section of my brain, she will find patches of scarring and dead tissue, souvenirs of the time I pursued the mystery of magnetism across the 11-dimensional badlands of string theory. Students of human pathos may one day cherish the 16-minute recording of me, with my 100 percent positive-feedback rating as an eBay purchaser, failing to make renowned physicist Steven Weinberg, who won a Nobel for unifying electromagnetism with the so-called weak force, admit that he can’t explain how a magnet holds a dry-cleaning ticket to the door of a refrigerator.

But as far as I can tell—and isn’t the point of science that all its bigger propositions come accompanied by this noble caveat?—he really can’t. When you get right down to it, the mystery of magnets interacting with each other at a distance has been explained in terms of virtual photons, incredibly small and unapologetically imaginary particles interacting with each other at a distance. As far as I can tell, these virtual particles are composed entirely of math and exist solely to fill otherwise embarrassing gaps in physics, such as the attraction and repulsion between magnets. And as far as I can tell, because I’ve had it repeatedly and rather pityingly told to me, to want to pursue the matter any further is an impulse that marks its sufferer out as a man who doesn’t know an awful lot about physics, or science, or the pursuit of truth in general.

What I have learned, in other words, after 71 days of strenuous research, is that I and my fellow Dummies no longer have a seat, if we ever did, at the dinner table of science. If we’re going to find any satisfaction in this gloomy vale of misery and mystery, we’re going to have to take matters into our own hands and start again, from first principles.

On this day, this very hour, starting with the magnets holding my gym’s yoga schedule to the creaking door of my filthy refrigerator, it begins.


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Shaun Maguire • 2 years ago
Is this satire? Some of the comments in here are astoundingly arrogant: "but it would appear that guys like Einstein, Newton, and myself" and "...failing to make renowned physicist Steven Weinberg, who won a Nobel for unifying electromagnetism with the so-called weak force, admit that he can't explain how a magnet holds a dry-cleaning ticket to the door of a refrigerator."

In case it's not satire, I'll bite. First, modern physics absolutely explains magnetism. You need fancy tools in order to get to the heart of it, but quantum electrodynamics (QED) has been astonishingly successful. How is magnetism mediated over long distances? Photons are the force mediating particles for the electromagnetic field. Magnetic material, such as ferromagnetic iron, is made up of a bunch of atoms whose spins are aligned in a special way. This leads to special behavior for the atoms' electrons. These electrons are constantly interacting with photons and these interactions keep the magnet stuck to the fridge. You can calculate exactly how this happens using QED. You can strip away the details and achieve the same answer using Maxwell's equations, but without having the same control over what is happening. This is called an "effective theory."
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truckfreak69 Shaun Maguire • 8 months ago
You just proved his point: sure, there are mathematical ways to predict it's behavior. There are unprovable models (at least currently unprovable) that can provide plausible explanations for how it works (generally I think these are worked out in reverse from high-level empirical data). But science cannot explain WHY it works.
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Jahan truckfreak69 • 7 months ago
The purpose of science it not to explain why things work but rather how they work. In other words, a scientific theory should predict behavior, but need not give reasons for that behavior. As you can see by this article, "Why?" is a vacuous question, since no matter the explanation, there are some people who are never satisfied.
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Mark Stevens Jahan • 4 months ago
Like Einstein himself?
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Connors Mark Stevens • 4 months ago
Yes. It reminds me of that Futurama episode where they had Farnsworth discover a unified theory of everything only to realize that while he knew the rules that governed the universe, he didn't know why it was "those rules and not some other rules", so that was his new ultimate question.
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Stanley Shapiro Shaun Maguire • 2 months ago
I have to explain magnetism to a young kid. With a PhD in Electrical Engineering I thought this wouldn't be difficult, but soon found myself with the same befuddlement as Maddox.

Of course back then, over 50 years ago, engineers were trained to calculate, not speculate (maybe it's still true), so I was not bothered by the fictitiousness of 'fields' and 'forces'.

Now I am.
The explanation of electrons interacting with photons is
promising. Can you flesh this out a little ?

Are magnets constantly emitting photons to create the magnetic field ?
Does a north pole emit and a south pole absorb ?
What's the source of the photons - are they created by interactions within the magnet, or are they coming in from the outside ?
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katie15 • 2 years ago
Mmm... I have pondered this myself and, to Daniel, what precisely is a 'field'?
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Monk E. Mind katie15 • 2 years ago
Excellent question, Katie. A field is a region.A where, not a what. A CONCEPT, not an object! So Daniel didn't answer your question at all.

He is talking about repulsion, but I wonder which atomic model he is using. AND how does one explain magnetic attraction with PUSH? Huh?
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Eric W • a year ago
Weinberg, that sciencey award winner guy said even he couldn't explain it. So yous guys is smarter than him?
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Daniel • 3 years ago
The author of this article must understand that the electromagnetic repulsion he speaks of is exactly the same thing as the forces acting on him and his chair, or his fingers and the keys on his keyboard. There is no inherent mechanical "push" that makes things move. At the atomic level, everything from picking up a cell phone to the forced felt when you get slapped across the face boil down to repulsion of electrons.

The only difference with magnets is that the field generated is much stronger than the electrically neutral, non-magnetic properties of your hand, and so can exert a greater force on things at a greater distance.
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Monk E. Mind Daniel • 2 years ago
How is repulsion not PUSH?
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Mark Stevens • 4 months ago
I believe that the answer to what causes these types of phenomenon and why, are the same answers behind what we are and why we are here.
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Graeme Chegwidden • 7 months ago
I think the problem is in fact somewhat different. Our expectation and commonly held belief is that the universe is comprised of physical objects that somehow are linked by energetic forces. We attempt to break everything down into an empirical understanding of things based on physical building blocks that have "properties". It derives from what is called the "mechanical" universe, very much part of Newton's thinking.

But what if this model is entirely wrong? What if the appearance of "solidity" or "objects" is merely that, an appearance? What if all of it is in fact energy in various configurations, all operating within a universal matrix of "fields".

We know, for example, that if we "zoom in" close enough to an object's surface, we find that it is made of "atoms", and in between them there is empty space. Empty except for the forces which hold the "atoms" in their relative positions within the material, like a scaffold of invisible energy.

Zoom in further and we find the "atoms" are really just areas of space occupied by various subatomic "energetic particles", held in various relationships with each other by their energetic properties. Between them is relatively vast and empty nothingness. Except of course for that strange invisible stuff we call energy. The properties any specific "atom" possesses are simply energetic, nothing more, and they derive purely from the combined properties of the subatomic "particles" which make it up.

Zoom in yet further, to an electron, a proton, any of the "particles" making up our "atoms" and once again we find no evidence of "substance". There is no object. Only a set of properties existing in an approximate area of space. So we theorise that these "objects" are in fact the result of much smaller "objects" or "particles" which themselves have relationships with each other by virtue of their properties, and which contribute their properties to the next level up in the "heirarchy". Quarks, photons, gluons, magnetons, name them and magically they exist within the paradigm.

Quantum mechanics and string theory, the two main recent attempts to quantify this mechanistic "physical" idea of the "particle"-driven universe, do not really explain. They try to describe so we can calculate stuff.

But what if there is ONLY energy? Eddy currents and disturbances in the energetic "meta-field" of the space time continuum? Points of concentration and activity, of repulsion and attraction, which give the illusion of matter? What if the only thing one can say is that magnetism simply is? That the strong and weak forces, that gravity itself, simply are? That these things are the fundamental "building blocks" of our universe? And that everything in its entirety is made purely and exclusively of them?

The question then becomes rather, "How do these "energies" work and interact to give rise to the universe as we know it?" The mystery then is no longer magnetism and distance, but solid matter appearing to touch and impact upon other solid matter. And we know huge amounts about that already!
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zyan • 3 years ago
Shorter Discover Magazine: "f***ken magnets, how do they work?"
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Monk E. Mind zyan • 2 years ago
Come by our Facebook group Rational Scientific Method, and someone will tell you. It is amazingly simple.
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Keith Jones • 3 years ago
Hi Bruno.

Thank you for the highly entertaining article regarding sciences
inability to explain how a magnet works. I was researching this subject
for my daughters homework - ‘magnets and their properties’.

The article made me ponder, is magnetism the same force as Dark
Energy, which causes the expansion of the universe to accelerate?

As your IQ is 10 to the power of three greater than mine, please keep the answer simple, but a little more detailed than ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

Thanks,

Keith
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Monk E. Mind Keith Jones • 2 years ago
Keith, there are no mainstream physicists that understand magnetism (or any other 'forces') as the author discovered after 71 days of investigation. Without describing a physical mechanism, the magic words field and force are what they will use along with other mathematical descriptions of behavior. You will never get explanations for the phenomena without physical objects.
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Guardia Rossa
7th March 2016, 21:28
North Korea invents hangover free alcohol

*Triggers Žižek*


But science cannot explain WHY it works.

*Triggers Rafiq*

EDIT: Monism? Srsly? "Matter is in fact energy!1!" wtf dude.

LionofTepelenë
7th March 2016, 23:59
WTF is the purpose of this post?

BIXX
8th March 2016, 02:23
Honestly ckaihatsu should be banned from.the science forum.after his "quantum pendant" bullshit

Do not make provocative posts like this. Consider this a *warning.*

Cliff Paul
8th March 2016, 02:24
Honestly ckaihatsu should be banned from.the science forum.after his "quantum pendant" bullshit

What?

BIXX
8th March 2016, 05:40
Idk if you were around for it but ckaihatsu was trying to get us all to believe these quantum pendants would put basically "good energy" into your body and make you healthy. It was weird. I'll try and remember to find you a link later.

Bala Perdida
8th March 2016, 06:04
Idk if you were around for it but ckaihatsu was trying to get us all to believe these quantum pendants would put basically "good energy" into your body and make you healthy. It was weird. I'll try and remember to find you a link later.

Around the same time as the 'drink salt-water' thread

ckaihatsu
8th March 2016, 16:02
WTF is the purpose of this post?


If you haven't read it, the point is that the physical phenomena of both gravity and magnetic attraction and repulsion have still not been adequately explained by science, in theoretical terms. With both phenomena one object affects another, but without any physical contact, hence the term 'spooky action at a distance'.





Honestly ckaihatsu should be banned from.the science forum.after his "quantum pendant" bullshit




Idk if you were around for it but ckaihatsu was trying to get us all to believe these quantum pendants would put basically "good energy" into your body and make you healthy. It was weird. I'll try and remember to find you a link later.


It's not 'good energy', it's actually *negative ions*, which is a real thing. This is the effect that the negative-ion-producing pendant has on water:





Alkaline or Ionized Water proves that structured water is good for your health. The body craves a Negative Charge, Electrons, Alkalinity and water that has a molecular structure is small and ordered, rather than bulky and not easily absorbed.




http://blog.watershed.net/2011/02/03/mercola-taken-to-school-structured-water-negative-ions-sure-sounds-like-ionized-water-to-me/


And here's the link you mentioned:





Boost your physical and mental health with cheap health tech




Very recommended:


One Quantum Science Scalar Energy Pendant High Gauss Anion 6919 Neg Ions by Quantum Value





http://www.revleft.com/vb/boost-your-physical-t191186/index2.html


---





Around the same time as the 'drink salt-water' thread


Yeah, and here's that one:





tinyurl.com/sole-sea-salt




Sole (so-lay) -- a health plan for those who can afford unrefined sea salt




Since discovering sole, I start my day with a teaspoon of this powerfully detoxing and rejuvenating elixir. Because it requires only himalayan salt (or Real Salt), water, and a jar, this health treatment is accessible and affordable for everyone.




The benefits of himalayan salt sole include:


Detoxifies the body by balancing systemic pH

Improves hydration by providing trace minerals

Improves mineral status of the body

Reduces muscle cramps by improving minerals and hydration

Helps balance blood sugar

Supports hormone balance for everyone, no matter what hormonal issues you face

Helps balance blood pressure because it provides unrefined, mineral-rich salt in an ionic solution

Improves sleep by supporting blood sugar and hormone balance

Acts as a powerful antihistamine

Supports weight loss by balancing hormones and improving energy

Supports thyroid and adrenal function (Source and read more benefits!)




http://empoweredsustenance.com/himalayan-salt-benefits/


---


Here's a little more background....

And, remember, all, this is a field of *science* and ongoing scientific investigation, and is *not* politics.





Alkalinity and Your Body’s Negative Charge May Be Critical for Health

I personally drink vortexed water nearly exclusively as I became a big fan of Viktor Schauberger who did much pioneering work on vortexing about a century ago. Dr. Pollack found that by creating a vortex in a glass of water, you’re putting more energy into it, thereby increasing EZ. According to Dr. Pollack, virtually ANY energy put into the water seems to create or build EZ water.

“We have looked at acoustic energy that seems to effect some change in the water. We’re still not sure exactly what. Vortexed water puts enormous energy into the water. There are several groups in Europe studying this phenomenon right now. “

As mentioned earlier, EZ water is alkaline and carries a negative charge. Maintaining this state of alkalinity and negative charge appears to be important for optimal health. Drinking water can be optimized in a variety of different ways, by injecting light energy or physical energy into the water by vortexing, for example. This is fairly easy using magnets. Reversing the vortex every few seconds may even create more energy.

Clearly, more research needs to be done in this area, but some is already underway. My own R&D team is working on a careful study in which we use vortexed water to grow sprouts, to evaluate the vitality and effectiveness of the water.

As for a natural source of EZ water for drinking, an ideal source is glacial melt. Unfortunately, this is extremely inaccessible for most people. Another good source is water from deep sources, such as deep spring water. The deeper the better, as EZ water is created under pressure. Natural spring water is another excellent way to obtain this type of water and you can use FindaSpring.com2 to help you find one close to you.

Besides optimizing the water you drink, you can help generate an electron surplus, or support this negative charge within your body, simply by connecting to the Earth, which also has a negative charge. This is the basis of the earthing or grounding technique, which has been shown to have significant health benefits by allowing the transfer of negatively charged electrons from the ground into the soles of your feet. In a sense, it’s as though your cells are built like batteries that are naturally recharged by spending time outdoors—whether sunny or overcast, and walking barefoot, connecting to the negative charge of the earth!

“If you have an organ that’s not functioning well—for example, it’s lacking that negative charge—then the negative charge from the earth and... [drinking] EZ water can help restore that negativity. I’ve become convinced... that this negative charge is critical for healthy function,” Dr. Pollack says.




http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/08/18/exclusion-zone-water.aspx

Luís Henrique
9th March 2016, 13:14
That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without the mediation of any thing else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man, who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it.

So here we have an example of how "philosophy" (whatever that means) intersects with "science" (whatever this means).

Observation, at the time of Newton, seemed to imply that "one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum". We could be content with this, and tell ourselves that this is how things are.

Newton however says that this "is [...] so great an absurdity" that it demanded a theoretical move - the aether hypothesis. The aether would be that "something" that "mediates" the gravitational interaction between two different chunks of matter.

Of course, the aether hypothesis is no less of "so great an absurdity" than "spooky action at a distance": it is "something" that is not matter in that it has no mass, and is not composed by material particles such as atoms, protons, electrons, etc., but is still different from empty space in that it somehow establishes a physical "contact" between different pieces of matter.

This non-atomic "subtle matter" hypothesis came out of favour due to the same issues that brought up the idea of a fourth-dimensional space-time, especially the absolute nature of light speed. But the lingering "absurdity" of material interaction at a distance remained, and so new hypotheses have been raised, those of "gravitational waves" and "gravitational particles", ie, gravitons.

So, those hypotheses - aether, gravitational waves, gravitons - are rooted, not only on empirical observation (as I remarked, we could just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ off the problem of "spooky action at a distance" by telling ourselves "that is how it is". That would be the empirist attitude proper. They are rooted on considerations of a different nature, that one could describe as "philosophical", "logical" or "ontological".

So, on contrary to gravitation seems to do, human reasoning certainly does not operate in a vacuum. The idea "that one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without the mediation of any thing else" strikes Newton as absurd. Why? While he doesn't expand too much on it, he says that "no man, who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it". And if we are informed of things historic, we know what he is talking about when he says "philosophical matters" and "competent faculty of thinking": it is Aristotle who says that matter can only interact with matter through physical contact, and so denies even the possibility of vacuum, which in turn brings up the idea of materia subtilis whenever action at a distance seems to happen.

Evidently, Newton was versed in matters of Peripatetic Philosophy, so his theorising that spooky action through distance is "an absurdity", is everything but implicit theorising. To the vulgar empirist, however, this is not the theory of an Ancient philosopher, it is merely "how things are", to the point that he or she might not even realise that it is an underlying "theory"; in this way, the empirist gets confused into assuming what needs to be demonstrated. This will lead the empirist from theory to theory, without even realising what s/he is doing, which means that in his or her mind, theory becomes degraded into fantasy. As Chesterton would put it, as s/he stops believing in something, s/he starts believing in everything, for lack of a theoretical compass.

And so the empirist will go from the "obvious" notion that "matter can only interact with matter through physical contact" to the "obvious" notion that "matter attracts matter" with no need for "mediation", and from there to the "obvious" notion that "aether" or "gravitons" "obviously" explain gravitation. Scientists however have a method; their fantasies are theories, because their method allows them to tell apart wheat from shaft. The empirist theories, however, remain fantasies, because their "method" is to believe that things are what they seem to be, and that reality "speaks" to the observer with no need of critical dialogue (thence again Chesterton's insight: deep down the empirist's supposed adherence to "things like things are" there is an uncriticised, hypostastic, animistic belief in "mother nature").

In times of modern super-especialisation, of course, the empirist animism of mother nature easily gets transformed into an (equally animistic) cult of science, in which direct observation of reality is replaced by observation of what scientists say, and mistaking the present state of scientific research and theorising for the "way things are".

Luís Henrique

Comrade #138672
9th March 2016, 15:13
Detoxing works just as well as homeopathy, or any other placebo for that matter.

ckaihatsu
9th March 2016, 15:35
And so the empirist will go from the "obvious" notion that "matter can only interact with matter through physical contact" to the "obvious" notion that "matter attracts matter" with no need for "mediation", and from there to the "obvious" notion that "aether" or "gravitons" "obviously" explain gravitation.




In times of modern super-especialisation, of course, the empirist animism of mother nature easily gets transformed into an (equally animistic) cult of science, in which direct observation of reality is replaced by observation of what scientists say, and mistaking the present state of scientific research and theorising for the "way things are".


Thanks -- and the following is complementary, I think....


philosophical abstractions



http://s6.postimg.org/cw2jljmgh/120404_philosophical_abstractions_RENDER_sc_12_1.j pg (http://postimg.org/image/i7hg698j1/full/)

ckaihatsu
9th March 2016, 15:47
Detoxing works just as well as homeopathy, or any other placebo for that matter.


Do tell -- care to mention a *method* at all here -- ?

Actually found one awhile ago, which I made this thread for:


Use engineered sound waves to destroy pathogens in the body, for better health

http://www.revleft.com/vb/use-engineered-sound-t191727/index.html?t=191727

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 16:44
Do tell -- care to mention a *method* at all here -- ?

Actually found one awhile ago, which I made this thread for:


Use engineered sound waves to destroy pathogens in the body, for better health

http://www.revleft.com/vb/use-engineered-sound-t191727/index.html?t=191727
I am a skeptic. This means that I dismiss such claims if evidence is lacking, especially when the claims have been around for some time, meaning that it becomes less and less likely that there is an actual benefit.

But I would be interested if you could show me evidence.

ckaihatsu
11th March 2016, 16:48
I am a skeptic. This means that I dismiss such claims if evidence is lacking, especially when the claims have been around for some time, meaning that it becomes less and less likely that there is an actual benefit.

But I would be interested if you could show me evidence.


Evidence for *what* -- ?

The thing with *health* stuff is that the science of it, whatever it is, is as accessible as the cost of the medicine / treatment.

Regarding the 'engineered sound waves' at post #12, the audio of that is *free*, at YouTube -- so make sure to tell us how it goes....

Guardia Rossa
11th March 2016, 16:51
IDK how the fuck a Marxist can believe in this kind of shit. It only makes your other theories - questionable - at the very least.

ckaihatsu
11th March 2016, 17:03
IDK how the fuck a Marxist can believe in this kind of shit. It only makes your other theories - questionable - at the very least.


You're *too dismissive* -- you're acting like you *know* something about these specific treatments, without even delving into the *practice* of them.

Recall that the scientific method is for science to be *done*, as in 'replicability'. So if you're not actually *testing* these things then you're just on the sidelines -- and making rude comments, in your case.

ChangeAndChance
11th March 2016, 18:19
Guys, seriously don't bother with him. He's never going to change his mind about any of this pseudoscientific bull, so why bother?

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 18:30
Evidence for *what* -- ?

The thing with *health* stuff is that the science of it, whatever it is, is as accessible as the cost of the medicine / treatment.

Regarding the 'engineered sound waves' at post #12, the audio of that is *free*, at YouTube -- so make sure to tell us how it goes....Evidence of it being an actual medicine that has a benefit that is more than just a placebo.

For example, I could try the sound waves therapy you suggest, and I may even believe that it works, but that doesn't prove anything. It may just be a placebo. Surely you rely on more than just your own experience and testimonials.

ckaihatsu
11th March 2016, 18:37
Evidence of it being an actual medicine that has a benefit that is more than just a placebo.


This isn't my 'baby', and I have no personal interest in gaining 'converts' to any particular approach or treatment.





For example, I could try the sound waves therapy you suggest, and I may even believe that it works, but that doesn't prove anything. It may just be a placebo. Surely you rely on more than just your own experience and testimonials.


When it comes to *health*, one's own experience is the *only* 'proving ground' -- the only thing that really matters.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 19:25
This isn't my 'baby', and I have no personal interest in gaining 'converts' to any particular approach or treatment.





When it comes to *health*, one's own experience is the *only* 'proving ground' -- the only thing that really matters.Come on. That is demonstrably false. Surely you think drinking poison is bad for you without the need to have experienced it for yourself. We are social animals. We don't just rely on ourselves.

Comrade #138672
11th March 2016, 19:26
Also, you were the one who started this thread, so if you are not trying to promote anything, then what are you posting it for? And not just this thread.

ckaihatsu
11th March 2016, 20:05
This isn't my 'baby', and I have no personal interest in gaining 'converts' to any particular approach or treatment.




When it comes to *health*, one's own experience is the *only* 'proving ground' -- the only thing that really matters.





Come on. That is demonstrably false. Surely you think drinking poison is bad for you without the need to have experienced it for yourself. We are social animals. We don't just rely on ourselves.


You're not understanding -- one's own health is practically *synonymous* with one's own experience, so, on the *positive* side of things, anything that *improves* my experience / health will be welcomed by me.

Have I heard through *others* / social means that poison is bad -- and, also, incidentally, that these treatments I've posted-about are *beneficial* -- ? Of course.





Also, you were the one who started this thread, so if you are not trying to promote anything, then what are you posting it for? And not just this thread.


I started this thread about the topics of magnetism and gravity.

Guardia Rossa
11th March 2016, 21:22
Sir ckaihatsu, we are materialists here. No one gives half a shit to magical anti-scientific placebo.

ckaihatsu
11th March 2016, 21:31
Sir ckaihatsu, we are materialists here. No one gives half a shit to magical anti-scientific placebo.


Yep, I'm a materialist, too.

The materialist / scientific approach would be to *investigate claims* as to something-or-other, and not to assume that you already know about it when it's outside of your present knowledge and experience, and is something that you haven't looked-into yourself.

Comrade #138672
12th March 2016, 00:06
You're not understanding -- one's own health is practically *synonymous* with one's own experience, so, on the *positive* side of things, anything that *improves* my experience / health will be welcomed by me.

Have I heard through *others* / social means that poison is bad -- and, also, incidentally, that these treatments I've posted-about are *beneficial* -- ? Of course.Do you even care whether something is a placebo or more than that?



I started this thread about the topics of magnetism and gravity.Yeah, this particular thread. But you made others. Also, the reason you started this thread has a lot to do with how you view science and therefore medicine. In other words, it is related to this.

ckaihatsu
12th March 2016, 15:21
Do you even care whether something is a placebo or more than that?


Please recall this part:





When it comes to *health*, one's own experience is the *only* 'proving ground' -- the only thing that really matters.


---





Yeah, this particular thread. But you made others. Also, the reason you started this thread has a lot to do with how you view science and therefore medicine. In other words, it is related to this.


I'm still not getting why you're so perturbed over *any* of these health / science threads of mine -- if you're so interested in theories and efficacies then maybe you should be more *active* around such issues instead of acting like a slighted authority.

Comrade #138672
12th March 2016, 16:09
Please recall this part:I take that as a yes.





I'm still not getting why you're so perturbed over *any* of these health / science threads of mine -- if you're so interested in theories and efficacies then maybe you should be more *active* around such issues instead of acting like a slighted authority.Actually, I am active around such issues. Perhaps not as much on this forum, but I spend quite some time thinking about and educating myself on these matters.

You referred to one of these threads yourself, by the way. It is just that you deny promoting it when you are clearly doing so. I get why you are promoting it: because you sincerely believe it to be true. Which is why I want to understand why you believe it to be true, while at the same time being open about how I personally see it. Ok. Maybe I entered the discussion in a slightly bold way, but I am not lying when I say that I wish to understand your POV, especially because I find you quite reasonable on other topics on this forum.

I do not intend to appear as an authority figure, which I am clearly not. I am critical though. I think that's important, especially when it comes to these issues.

ckaihatsu
12th March 2016, 16:21
I take that as a yes.




Actually, I am active around such issues. Perhaps not as much on this forum, but I spend quite some time thinking about and educating myself on these matters.

You referred to one of these threads yourself, by the way. It is just that you deny promoting it when you are clearly doing so. I get why you are promoting it: because you sincerely believe it to be true. Which is why I want to understand why you believe it to be true, while at the same time being open about how I personally see it. Ok. Maybe I entered the discussion in a slightly bold way, but I am not lying when I say that I wish to understand your POV, especially because I find you quite reasonable on other topics on this forum.

I do not intend to appear as an authority figure, which I am clearly not. I am critical though. I think that's important, especially when it comes to these issues.


No contention, though I'd say that we're probably at the physical limits of what we can discuss or do around this issue -- either more trials are needed, perhaps with participation and input from you and others, or else we're just going in circles in the abstract, without general information or more personal experience than my own.


Generalizations-Characterizations



http://s6.postimg.org/rtrvqqoz5/2714844340046342459_Quxppf_fs.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/dakqpbvu5/full/)

Comrade #138672
13th March 2016, 04:34
No contention, though I'd say that we're probably at the physical limits of what we can discuss or do around this issue -- either more trials are needed, perhaps with participation and input from you and others, or else we're just going in circles in the abstract, without general information or more personal experience than my own.When you are talking about trials, are you talking specifically about testing sound wave therapy (since this is relatively new, I suppose, and it is therefore not unreasonable to think that more experiments are necessary to test its viability)?

What is your opinion on homeopathy? Do you think it works? If not, why not? How is it different?

ckaihatsu
13th March 2016, 04:48
When you are talking about trials, are you talking specifically about testing sound wave therapy (since this is relatively new, I suppose, and it is therefore not unreasonable to think that more experiments are necessary to test its viability)?





[T]he materialist / scientific approach would be to *investigate claims* as to something-or-other


---





What is your opinion on homeopathy? Do you think it works? If not, why not? How is it different?


I won't claim to speak for that entire field. My foray into this health stuff has been for strictly personal reasons.

Luís Henrique
13th March 2016, 17:23
Consider some recent medical insights, theories and ideas:


multiple sclerosis is caused by blockages in venous return from the brain causing various complicated downstream effects which eventually led to the immune system attacking myelinated cells.


prostatic hyperplasia, a prostate disease that affects millions of older men, is caused by incompetence of the spermatic veins.


Minocycline, an antibiotic sometimes used to treat acne, is effective against schizophrenia, particularly against “negative symptoms”, a set of schizophrenia symptoms considered totally untreatable and not responsive to advanced antipsychotics.

Which of them are pseudo-science?

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
14th March 2016, 13:22
placebo

But. But.

Don't you think that the concept of "placebo" alone is problematic?

I mean, "placebo" is something that has no directly material effect on a given disease - an innocuous drug - but that does in fact help with the symptoms of that disease, as long as the patient believes s/he is taking an effective drug?

So, the first point is not, "is this given drug/procedure more effective than placebo?", but "how on earth is placebo more effective than doing nothing?"

A materialist analysis of placebo, please!

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
28th April 2016, 17:28
A materialist analysis of placebo, please!

Bump. I still want to know how we can dismiss, say, homeopathy, on the basis that it isn't more effective than placebo, without minimally questioning why placebo has any level of effectivity.

Luís Henrique

Sperm-Doll Setsuna
30th April 2016, 18:54
Bump. I still want to know how we can dismiss, say, homeopathy, on the basis that it isn't more effective than placebo, without minimally questioning why placebo has any level of effectivity.

Luís Henrique

Because it affects the psychological perception of symptoms, and in this way, has some limited effect, insofar as the perception goes, anyhow? So homoeopathy is just the same. Thus you have all these anecdotes of this and that, though it's just water.

Luís Henrique
4th May 2016, 20:04
Because it affects the psychological perception of symptoms, and in this way, has some limited effect, insofar as the perception goes, anyhow? So homoeopathy is just the same. Thus you have all these anecdotes of this and that, though it's just water.

In any way, there is a huge problem. If there is a "psychological effect", then we are realising that just telling a person that she is being medically treated somehow has a physical/chemical/biological effect. How that? How does placebo change the patient's organism so that it reacts more effectively against disease/trauma? What kind of witchcraft is this?

Luís Henrique

Shinyos
5th May 2016, 05:49
In any way, there is a huge problem. If there is a "psychological effect", then we are realising that just telling a person that she is being medically treated somehow has a physical/chemical/biological effect. How that? How does placebo change the patient's organism so that it reacts more effectively against disease/trauma? What kind of witchcraft is this?

Luís Henrique

It is more or less similar to 'self fulfilling prophecy', where something that is conceived from abstract thought somehow has any basis in reality. It all lies in hormonal secretion and chemical interaction within the brain. When a placebo is given instead of actual medicine, this stimulates what is called the reward system in the brain, which reinforces the positive outcome of said placebo by giving it pleasurable and desirable effects. This means that someone can receive an inert pill that is touted for 'curing' something when in actuality, that is a psychological response to the apparent effects, and not actual treatment (e.g. a sugar pill will cure your sore throat.).

Alet
5th May 2016, 22:01
If there is a "psychological effect", then we are realising that just telling a person that she is being medically treated somehow has a physical/chemical/biological effect. How that?

In the same way that insulting, doing a favor for or loving a person and so on has a physical/chemical/biological effect. I don't see the problem here.

Luís Henrique
9th May 2016, 18:23
In the same way that insulting, doing a favor for or loving a person and so on has a physical/chemical/biological effect. I don't see the problem here.

Well, that's "spooky action at a distance" by definition. Sound waves external to an individual somehow get translated into biochemical changes within that individual. What magic words would translate into biochemical changes that reverse an HIV infection, by this reasoning?

Luís Henrique

ckaihatsu
9th May 2016, 18:55
Well, that's "spooky action at a distance" by definition. Sound waves external to an individual somehow get translated into biochemical changes within that individual. What magic words would translate into biochemical changes that reverse an HIV infection, by this reasoning?


No, everyday phenomena like sound waves are *known* to be mediated / transported by *air molecules*, which is an obvious physical process, while gravity and magnetism (the original topic) are *not* dependent on any material particles (like air molecules) for their transmission, as through the void of outer space.

This is why gravity and magnetism continue to be mysterious, and controversial -- mainstream science tries to 'fill the void' with subatomic particles being the 'medium' for gravity, but goes no further than that *postulation* for an explanation, which is incomplete.

From the OP:





such actio in distans is obviously by all known scientific standards an impossibility. Reason, common sense, logic . . . demand the existence of such universally pervading medium, by whatever name we may choose to call it

Luís Henrique
10th May 2016, 19:46
No, everyday phenomena like sound waves are *known* to be mediated / transported by *air molecules*, which is an obvious physical process

Yes, but what is spooky here is that somehow those physical processes are "translated" into biochemical processes within our brains, and there is no mechanistic explanation for that (none that is credible or even physically possible, anyway).

Luís Henrique

ckaihatsu
10th May 2016, 20:32
Yes, but what is spooky here is that somehow those physical processes are "translated" into biochemical processes within our brains, and there is no mechanistic explanation for that (none that is credible or even physically possible, anyway).


Well I can't deny you your choice of adjectives, but it really looks like you're attempting to co-opt the 'spooky' term away from its appropriate application to the forces of gravity and magnetism.

Regarding your point, any materialist would not have a problem with the social-psychological aspects / mechanics that you're describing -- therefore such really *isn't* 'spooky'.

Sea
7th July 2016, 09:34
Well I can't deny you your choice of adjectives, but it really looks like you're attempting to co-opt the 'spooky' term away from its appropriate application to the forces of gravity and magnetism.

Regarding your point, any materialist would not have a problem with the social-psychological aspects / mechanics that you're describing -- therefore such really *isn't* 'spooky'.Can you explain the bolded part? It seems like you're just repeating it from the article.

ckaihatsu
7th July 2016, 13:15
Can you explain the bolded part? It seems like you're just repeating it from the article.


Yeah, it's all in the OP.

Sea
7th July 2016, 21:48
Yeah, it's all in the OP.I have read it. Luis's use of "spooky" seems totally appropriate to me so I don't know how it's co-opting anything. Whether you're spooked by something or not is subjective anyway.

I wonder if Bordiga was spooked by magnets since he was in the ICP.

ckaihatsu
8th July 2016, 15:25
I have read it. Luis's use of "spooky" seems totally appropriate to me so I don't know how it's co-opting anything.


Well, not to belabor the point, but it's off-topic. See for yourself -- he moves away from the initial subject of gravity and magnetism:





Yes, but what is spooky here is that somehow those physical processes are "translated" into biochemical processes within our brains, and there is no mechanistic explanation for that (none that is credible or even physically possible, anyway).





Well I can't deny you your choice of adjectives, but it really looks like you're attempting to co-opt the 'spooky' term away from its appropriate application to the forces of gravity and magnetism.

Regarding your point, any materialist would not have a problem with the social-psychological aspects / mechanics that you're describing -- therefore such really *isn't* 'spooky'.


---





Whether you're spooked by something or not is subjective anyway.


Sure, but the topic of how gravity and magnetism work is intellectually interesting -- the mechanics for both have still not been explained by science ('action at a distance').





I wonder if Bordiga was spooked by magnets since he was in the ICP.