A question to my non-American comrades....

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Just a fairly quick question:

Do many people in your countries have as much a mistaken belief of what socialism is as those here in the States have? Like, do they always associate socialism with Welfare, Government Intervention, etc.?

[Alet]

Mostly, yes. "Social market economy" in Germany is often described as "free market economy with socialist elements".

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

This seems to be true all over the globe, but I think a part of this is a problem of titles. The vast majority of "Socialist Parties" around the world are supporters of market economies with heavier (perhaps more "social") state intervention. France, Germany, Scandinavia, the UK, Spain and many other countries reinforce this notion of socialism. As a consequence, the notion of socialism held by revolutionaries has largely been left to the wayside.

It's also curious, since conservatives and even liberal/libertarian voices have advocated for more state intervention in the economy, even if not explicitly (like calling for stricter enforcement of property regulations)

[Devrim]

I'd say it's nowhere near as extreme as in the states.

Devrim

[odysseus]

I think its extremely well put that the US has a sort of collective amnesia about its own history, and the role socialist and communist parties had in the US.



Economist Richard Wolff recently held a discussion on economic rights and reform at Occidental College in which he agreed with Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s (D-MA) rallying cry that “the game is rigged.”
Wolff described himself as a “critic of capitalism” and said that, while it might be hard to admit, “the system is over.” He went back through both Greek and American history as a means of explaining what is currently happening in the US.
Pointing out that the coalition that existed in the 30’s that pulled America out of the Great Depression doesn’t exist anymore – on purpose – Wolff said,

“We’ve just gone through seven years of really bad unemployment with no significant Republican or Democratic leader ever talking about public employment, which would be a way to solve the problem. What way? The way we used the last time! It’s our history! It’s like a collective amnesia; it’s amazing. It’s not that we debated it … it’s as if it never happened … And taxing corporations and the rich? This is like attacking motherhood and apple pie. It’s unthinkable! But, it’s our history.”

Wolff added that when politicians tell him that taxing big business and the rich would be the end of their political careers, he loves to tell them that the only president in American history who really went after the rich was elected four times.
“Let’s see: The most popular president was the one who taxed corporations and the rich to give everyone Social Security, unemployment, and government jobs. Hello!”
Watch Wolff’s full discussion.

This sorta explains why its so extreme in the US. (Also goes through Greece. Long, rich presentation). Keep in mind this is from feburary 15, 2015. He has updated versions of analysis's that he brought up there.

The US history part starts at 25:20, ends at 48:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhFMa4t28A

[SentimentalDisenchantment]

No. People here in India or at least in my city think Socialism means Marx and Murder. Or some literate ones think its Naxalism. That's pretty much it.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yes.`

In one of the works of British socialist GDH Cole he describes how many people have the mistaken idea that socialism is simply government involvement in the economy, something along those lines. I think I read that in 'guilde socialism restated' published in 1920. So it's not really a new phenomenon either.

[Exterminatus]

In Serbia (and other East European countries, i presume) socialism usually refers to 'real' socialism experience, though lately some far right groups also speak of pro-russian nationalist "socialism" and other junk.

[Feral Tribune]

In Serbia (and other East European countries, I presume) socialism usually refers to 'real' socialism experience, though lately some far right groups also speak of pro-Russia nationalist "socialism" and other junk.

Yes. Also, in Croatia socialism is automatically referred to Soviet-style Communism.

[newdayrising]

In Brazil I'd say most people don't even think about it. Those who do think a little a bit about it probably mostly believe "socialism" to be some kind of vaguely social democratic system while "communism" is something where politicians wear uniforms, everything belongs to the state and people can't travel.

[Aslan]

In Serbia (and other East European countries, i presume) socialism usually refers to 'real' socialism experience, though lately some far right groups also speak of pro-russian nationalist "socialism" and other junk.

In Albania socialism is viewed as Social-Democratic capitalistic welfare. While Communism is almost (never met anyone otherwise) universally thought as Stalinist-Hoxhaist massacre and oppression.

It's quite interesting really; to think about how my people never really have heard of other branches of socialism.

[oneday]

In Albania socialism is viewed as Social-Democratic capitalistic welfare. While Communism is almost (never met anyone otherwise) universally thought as Stalinist-Hoxhaist massacre and oppression.

It's quite interesting really; to think about how my people never really have heard of other branches of socialism.

Honestly, I don't think it's that surprising. The parties called Communist became oppressive when they got in power and those called socialist did social-democratic capitalistic welfare. Those were/are the most public faces of the expression of those terms, it's just the reality of the situation.

[odysseus]

So what you're saying is we need to stop naming our political parties so uncreatively. :lol:

[Philosophos]

It is mostly believed that Stalin is the biggest example of communism and that's exactly what communism is all about (a lot of them actually believe North Korea is communist for crying out loud), so practically they have this idea of communism being an extreme dictatorship that is highly unethical since they refuse religion in most cases and the nationalist backrounds etc.

It's not exactly like the part of the states where people thought Obama was socialist because he wanted to make changes in healthcare, but it's more of the "damn these commies they ruin everything".

[RedSonRising]

Interesting thread. In the US the word has gotten even more and more abused thanks to Bernie Sanders (who I like but is just confusing people by saying Democratic Socialism instead of Social Democracy).

Not to derail the thread, but I'm also curious if identity politics has co-opted the left in other countries as much as it has the US. I don't think it has. When people in Turkey, Colombia, France, and India for example describe themselves as on the left, and organize protests for "left" causes, there seems to be an understanding that this means being, at the very least, critical of capitalism. In the US, even "radical activists" might not even be considering socialism as an alternative at all, and instead envision more "diverse" and "fair" capitalism. Economics only comes into play as one factor.