Mutualist Freedom of Association

[freedomofassociation]

Hi everyone,

If you are Anarchist with Mutualist leanings; I have created a Facebook group devoted to us that can allow us to talk, share ideas and meet new friends. It is called Mutualist Freedom of Association.

You don't have to be strictly Mutualist. Any anarchists or socialists are welcome. It is a public group, but we will try to weed out the trolls. I haven't seen any group on Facebook devoted to these ideas. So, if you would like to join please feel free to do so.

[Aslan]

Hi everyone,

If you are Anarchist with Mutualist leanings; I have created a Facebook group devoted to us that can allow us to talk, share ideas and meet new friends. It is called Mutualist Freedom of Association.

You don't have to be strictly Mutualist. Any anarchists or socialists are welcome. It is a public group, but we will try to weed out the trolls. I haven't seen any group on Facebook devoted to these ideas. So, if you would like to join please feel free to do so.

What is mutualism anyway? I've heard the term anti-capitalist free market, but that seems odd to me since a free market will always have oppression.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

What is mutualism anyway? I've heard the term anti-capitalist free market, but that seems odd to me since a free market will always have oppression.

It's O.G. Anarchism, i.e. the type espoused by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. I think the term "mutual" comes from everyone mutually owning their own mode of production, or something to that effect. I'm pretty sure wage labour and markets still exist, but without the state.

[Aslan]

It's O.G. Anarchism, i.e. the type espoused by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. I think the term "mutual" comes from everyone mutually owning their own mode of production, or something to that effect. I'm pretty sure wage labour and markets still exist, but without the state.

Do they think that any ownership of the means of production is exploitative, and how would markets work without a state to keep it together? Seems like atoned down version of AnCapism to me, just with the illusion of anti-capitalism.

But I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

Proudhon himself was a sexist person and certainly not progressive in many ways. Mutualism is certainly left-wing, however, as I believe it follows the Labour Theory of Value or something similar.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

"Mutualism is essentially an individualist interpretation of socialism. It opposes outright collectivisation of production and distribution (communism) and supports (limited) private property in labor. Proudhon basically believed that workers had the right to the fruits of their own labor, and believed that this could best be achieved through worker cooperatives. He was an anarchist, so he opposed state-ownership and control of industry, and supported more decetranlized worker organizations (he identified as a federalist). "

This is a better description that I could ever hope to offer. It supports markets however, so I am opposed to it.

[Collective Reasons]

Do they think that any ownership of the means of production is exploitative, and how would markets work without a state to keep it together? Seems like atoned down version of AnCapism to me, just with the illusion of anti-capitalism.

Proudhon's theory of capitalist exploitation is laid out early in What is Property? (Look for the stuff about the "right of increase" and then the material on the "collective force.") Instead of focusing on exchange or ownership of the means of production as such, he focused on the naturalized "right" by which ownership of the means of production allowed proprietors to appropriate the fruits of social labor (and then, using that misappropriation as leverage, everything else they could wrest away from the workers.) That critique of capitalism and the critique of governmentalism are two aspects of a larger critique of the exploitation of collective force in a variety of spheres. (Proudhon was never consistent in applying the critique to the patriarchal family, but he recognized the same basic dynamic even there.) So, applied really consistently, Proudhon's critique is really a critique of a capitalistic dynamic in more than just economic relations.

There are self-proclaimed mutualists of the "market anarchist" sort who do not pay so much attention to that understanding of exploitation, and consequently don't have nearly so strong a critique of capitalism or exploitation in other realms. But perhaps they are better understood as individualists anyway.

[Aslan]

Proudhon's theory of capitalist exploitation is laid out early in What is Property? (Look for the stuff about the "right of increase" and then the material on the "collective force.") Instead of focusing on exchange or ownership of the means of production as such, he focused on the naturalized "right" by which ownership of the means of production allowed proprietors to appropriate the fruits of social labor (and then, using that misappropriation as leverage, everything else they could wrest away from the workers.) That critique of capitalism and the critique of governmentalism are two aspects of a larger critique of the exploitation of collective force in a variety of spheres. (Proudhon was never consistent in applying the critique to the patriarchal family, but he recognized the same basic dynamic even there.) So, applied really consistently, Proudhon's critique is really a critique of a capitalistic dynamic in more than just economic relations.

There are self-proclaimed mutualists of the "market anarchist" sort who do not pay so much attention to that understanding of exploitation, and consequently don't have nearly so strong a critique of capitalism or exploitation in other realms. But perhaps they are better understood as individualists anyway.

Dear Mutualism,

You are like right-libertarianism, except that you make good points. You accept Marx's critique of capitalism, which is cool. You have a cool-ish flag, although the hammer and/raised fist is much cooler.

All in all, you are an interesting idea. And if you make a come-back you can be my pet ideology, I will feed you and keep you warm. So that you may grow to be a big and strong society like capitalism. I love you mutualism, we will be together one day, fuck AnCaps.

Sincerely,

Aslan :wub:

[Remus Bleys]

restrict these ppl

[Aslan]

restrict these ppl

Oh come on now! Is it my fault that I just wanted to have a little fun? Please...

[Guardia Rossa]

You will NEVER separate us Remus!

What the fuck? Mutualism is like Ckaihatsu: Looks good on paper (Or on picture), but actually makes no fucking sense, and is utopian and impractical.

[Aslan]

What the fuck? Mutualism is like Ckaihatsu: Looks good on paper (Or on picture), but actually makes no fucking sense, and is utopian and impractical.

Yeah, but I was just poking a little fun though... Can't a man have his time? :o

[Бай Ганьо]

Mutualism was a concrete form of self-management among silk workers in the Lyon area even before Proudhon theorized it. What is utopian and impractical is wanting to extend a local system for a very specific situation to a large-scale economy.