Why the Right Hates Public Education?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

http://www.progressive.org/jan04/miner0104.html

I'd like to see the right's reply to the obserbations made in this article.
What do you have to say for yourselves?
Are these acusatuions accurate?

Would you like to see public education gone?
If not, do you want to provide more space for the private sector?
Do you want to dimish the power of the teacher's unions by strengthening the private sector's place in education?

Or are vouchers a completely innocent way to provide freedom for poorer citizens?

How do you feel about Dennis Hastert's and other conservative's support for legislation that favors ending government involvement in education?

Let's debate this in an American fashion disregarding the fact that I'm against involvement in American politics to begin with.

[Exploited Class]

a) Education is a multibillion dollar market, and the private sector is eager to get its hands on those dollars.

This alone makes me think that public education will not go away. Based solely on the fact that it is easier to tax people (force them to pay) than to get them to fork out cash for private schooling. Corporations will instead take over the public school system as outsourcers. Recieving from the budget allowed for the public schools and then optimizing them so their is a profit for the corporation taking over. Which means, reducing teacher pay, forcing extra ciriculatory classes into a pay to play and dropping anything that reduces profit.

They have already done this in many schools across the nation, philadephia being one of the most prominent.

They also start selling ads within the school to generate revenue. Pop machines, snack machines, educational videos shown from other corporations for free suprisingly. Like Exxons educational video on enviroment, no slant from that I am sure.

In Colorado they put advertisements in the school buses to start future consumers and to generate additional sources of revenue from outside sources.

Once they have their hands in controlling the public school system and recieving the guaranteed budget from tax payers, they can use their influence, power and financial resources to push for higher budgets. It will get quickly out of hand. Just look at the military industrial complex at a whoping 400 Billion now, although only attacked once over 60 years ago, the idea of a 'defense budget' increased expodentially. The corporate sector has run amuck and can't be trusted. This is of course because we have affiliation like NBC news being tied to GE who is a government contract bidder in the military industrial complex.

Those higher budgets won't increase the productivity within the school systems, we will only see it get worse. Higher profit will be taken in with little output or increase in quality of public education system. Just like when Nike moved its productions over seas, the price of Nike Jordan's didn't drop because of it, they stayed exactly the same, the consumer didn't benefit at all just the profit margin of Nike.

I don't see the voucher system as a way to deystroy the public school system. I think it is a three part idea. One get people to dislike the public school system and get a reason out thier for the media to portray the public school system poorly. Generate debate on the issue. Second to remove money from the school system and to make them worse off than they already are, forcing people to look to other avenues to repair the school system. lastly to stop diverting money away from the public school system with vouchers and instead allow corporate management and greed take over public schools.

Great book to read, When Corporations Rule the World (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887208046/qid=1077156455/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-1295160-8231059?v=glance&s=books). This whole idea of the private sector trying all means to do a hostile take over of the public school system is well documented in there.

[dopediana]

a couple of years ago when i was a sophomore we had this channel one bullshit. it had these news broadcasts and gatorade commercials. it was purely designed to brainwash us. it was totally pushing military action in afghanistan and trying to convince us that we had to have "it" in us. ooooh, and there were also adverts to get us to join the few, the proud, the marines.

[Iepilei]

In Texas public education, Teachers are not allowed to be apart of any teacher union. Funny that.

Anyways, I've always said if you make public education private you'll merely drop the number of people who attend. Fewer educated people in a high-tech society == bad buisness and bad for development. But of course that's no concern of the capitalists, right?

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 07:24 PM
a couple of years ago when i was a sophomore we had this channel one bullshit. it had these news broadcasts and gatorade commercials. it was purely designed to brainwash us. it was totally pushing military action in afghanistan and trying to convince us that we had to have "it" in us. ooooh, and there were also adverts to get us to join the few, the proud, the marines.
"channel 1" is a great example of corporte america's take over of the public school system. It goes into detail about it in the book I linked to above.

The beautiful idea behind it, and here is the keywords, it plays to a "captive audience of impressionable minds".

Corporations love it, give free equipment (bough bulk and often of questionable quality) and then force feed kids their ideas. I grew up in a rich town so we didn't have it. But I got to do a student exchange with the school next door and witnessed it.

Commercials and then commercials put into the "education" like, "what do students think of the new coke product coming out." A lot of handome students from a Benetton ad (every race and color and creed) (make sure we don't miss out on target markets) were questioned if they like the new product, I swear it was like a 90 to 10 decision to everybody unable to wait in anticipation for the new coke product. Awesome investigative journalism.

Oh and then we got a 3 minute local production of the daily school announcements.

Teachers can not turn off the TV during channel 1.

they advertise for movies and new promotional items through contests. If you can weed out the moralist shit on this page, http://www.obligation.org/eightcrazynights.html they document just how many times they do this. Sony is partner with channel 1 surprisingly enough.

Having a captive audience of 1000 students, who btw you already know exactly what their age range is, is a marketer's wet dream.

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 08:46 PM
Anyways, I've always said if you make public education private you'll merely drop the number of people who attend. Fewer educated people in a high-tech society == bad buisness and bad for development. But of course that's no concern of the capitalists, right?
No, they will just either bring in neccessary employees from other countries who have a better public school system or just export the jobs to those countries.

[Iepilei]

export the jobs to the areas that do have public education... keep the crowds, but don't pay the price? slick, sick bastards.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by Exploited [email protected] 19 2004, 03:46 AM
Commercials and then commercials put into the "education" like, "what do students think of the new coke product coming out." A lot of handome students from a Benetton ad (every race and color and creed) (make sure we don't miss out on target markets) were questioned if they like the new product, I swear it was like a 90 to 10 decision to everybody unable to wait in anticipation for the new coke product. Awesome investigative journalism.

Oh and then we got a 3 minute local production of the daily school announcements.

we didn't even learn about the school's daily announcements except for over the intercom. there were four main reporters on channel 1. some latina girl, an asian girl, a white boy, and a black guy with a british accent. in their "coverage" of afghanistan they talked about women's rights the whole time and forgot about the cluster bombs. oopsies! the girl was just walking through the decimated streets of cabul and i was expecting and hoping that locals would throw rocks at her. no such luck. instead she was strolling through the ruins of kabul's main street talking about how great stuff was now. it was pathetic. then they had this 10 minute long bogus commercial about the origins of gatorade. it's utter crap. channel 1 makes you stupid. don't watch it. i always did my homework last minute instead of watching it.

[Loknar]

I have no problem with pubic education, I just think the states, not the federal government, should fund it.

But in general I would see m problem with people paying something, social programs are not a good idea in m opinion. I believe in self sufficiency.

[el_profe]

There is an education system in America :o

Newsflash: Many people outside the USA hate Americans because of how ignorant they are. I have had to explain to a countless number of people that Guatemala is in Central America, and that its right under mexico even after that they tell me : "is it next to brazil" :o . And then one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, people(some) in one of my college class did not know the UK was an Island. :o :lol: :lol:

The USA education system is a piece of shit, It sucks, and when gov. control education they control what they want you to learn and what they dont want you to learn (of course all of you are for this).

I dont care about the motives republicans have with privatizing schools, I think it should be done because why should the gov. have a monopoly on education? look how well they have done with education? :blink:
(my mom is a teacher and she told me that when she was teaching 7 th grade she was told that many 7th graders read at a 3rd grade level and that she had to "dumb down" how she thought her class so the morons that read at a 3rd grade level would not fail) this happens when schools dont fail kids that cant pass the 3rd grade. This only keeps on getting worse and worse, yet everyone here is in love with the great Education system of America. :lol: :lol:

LOL, watching "street smarts" that tv show, they asked this women how many states are there in the USA? she said "48", person asking the question: "no" , stupid women "hahahaha, I should know this im a social studies teacher" :o . If im that person that ask the question I smack her with the microphone just for being a retard (jk), but i would say something to her.

p.s. The greatest thing about reading articles like this and hearing the responses is how everyone thinks the republican party is a piece of shit but they think the democratic party is different, NO MORONS, they are the same crap. Why do you think the democratic party does not want to privatize schools? could it be that they dont want to lose votes? :o , just like the republicans dont want to lose votes.

[Osman Ghazi]

Private education wouldn't be any better because only the rich could attend thus making people even more stupid. That's a good plan you've got there.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 19 2004, 02:51 PM
Private education wouldn't be any better because only the rich could attend thus making people even more stupid. That's a good plan you've got there.
:blink: , LOL, i know many not rich people that go to private shcool, I wnt to private school and im not rich. Thanks for that great explanation on why private education does not work.

Obviously if people didnt have to pay all those taxes they would have money to pay for education.

But you want goverments to decide what you learn and feed you propaganda through the school system thats fine. can anyone say 1984.

[Iepilei]

You know a book as reached it's climax when all sides of everyone use it as a damn reference to society.

Furthermore, the American system for education is a bad model to look at. Why don't you try looking towards Europe? Their public education facilities work out quite well for one simple reason. Their surroundings. In Europe all nations are surrounded by other nations who speak different languages and have different customs and mores. Europeans are more keen to be open to the greater part of the world - much moreso than any American student. Americans take their times and oogle the glitter-gemmed pictures we see on the picture-box. Janet Jacksons tit, the newest episode of Friends, the most recent sporting event.

I read an article a while back that people actually called in and protested when a "breaking news" broadcast interrupted their favorite reality program.

If there is anything to blame for the idiocy of the youth of America, it's not the public education system that has been forced to condense everything down to flash-facts, it's the corporate glitz that lassos the youth (and many older middle-aged people) and re-directs their priorities away from more educational... less desirable forms of time management.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by el_profe+Feb 19 2004, 04:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Feb 19 2004, 04:04 PM)
Osman [email protected] 19 2004, 02:51 PM
Private education wouldn&#39;t be any better because only the rich could attend thus making people even more stupid. That&#39;s a good plan you&#39;ve got there.
:blink: , LOL, i know many not rich people that go to private shcool, I wnt to private school and im not rich. Thanks for that great explanation on why private education does not work.

Obviously if people didnt have to pay all those taxes they would have money to pay for education.

But you want goverments to decide what you learn and feed you propaganda through the school system thats fine. can anyone say 1984. [/b]
One of the ideas of tax is that it redistributes wealth, the poor do not have enough money to pay for education, even if they do not pay tax, their education is subsidised by those that are more well off. If we had to pay for education the poorest would get no education, the slightly more well off would get a poor education and the rich would get a good education.

1984 is bollocks.

[Iepilei]

I was reading a report a few months ago about my old highschool. They spent an average of 5,600+USD on every student. That&#39;s a hefty chunk of change per year, for 4 years. Now think about paying slightly less than that per year for elementary. Now think paying slightly more than that for college.

16 years, 4000 per year == 64K parents would have to pay (out of pocket) for their kids to get the same education they&#39;re getting now for, in essence, free.

Also, in Texas atleast, money for education comes from property taxes. Meaning not only people who own houses (the traditional mom, dad, and 2 kids picture of suburbia) but the CEOs of firms and industries pad the expense as well.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 05:32 PM
You know a book as reached it&#39;s climax when all sides of everyone use it as a damn reference to society.

Furthermore, the American system for education is a bad model to look at. Why don&#39;t you try looking towards Europe? Their public education facilities work out quite well for one simple reason. Their surroundings. In Europe all nations are surrounded by other nations who speak different languages and have different customs and mores. Europeans are more keen to be open to the greater part of the world - much moreso than any American student. Americans take their times and oogle the glitter-gemmed pictures we see on the picture-box. Janet Jacksons tit, the newest episode of Friends, the most recent sporting event.

I read an article a while back that people actually called in and protested when a "breaking news" broadcast interrupted their favorite reality program.

If there is anything to blame for the idiocy of the youth of America, it&#39;s not the public education system that has been forced to condense everything down to flash-facts, it&#39;s the corporate glitz that lassos the youth (and many older middle-aged people) and re-directs their priorities away from more educational... less desirable forms of time managemen
Oh yeah, europeans dotn wate their time watching reality tv or sporting event. :o

NO, American Idol came from europe wherre a the main european countries have there own idol, Reality tv came from England, and lets not talk about sports, the europeans ae just as if not more sports fans than in the USA. Dont blame tv or sports for the horrible education americans get.

[Iepilei]

There were actually two reasonings behind that post. One was distraction and the other was exposure. Americans could be as exposed as the rest of Europe, if they took time away and actually made that step to know who the leaders of other countries are... what languages they speak... WHERE they are... etc. Perhaps then, American&#39;s wouldn&#39;t be given the &#39;ignorant&#39; stigma and our school credibility would go up slightly

[Exploited Class]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 19 2004, 10:45 AM
One of the ideas of tax is that it redistributes wealth, the poor do not have enough money to pay for education, even if they do not pay tax, their education is subsidised by those that are more well off. If we had to pay for education the poorest would get no education, the slightly more well off would get a poor education and the rich would get a good education.
Can anybody say entrenched wealthed to an even higher degree?

and it would it take society back about 200 years where you didn&#39;t just have a wealthy elite class but a lower uneducated class. Having a pay for education, is very much a good idea for the upper class, it removes almost all jocking between classes, unlike today where you see a very, very, very small percentage of people able to climb through the social classes. Removing a free education would deystroy that instantly.

[Valishin]

A. Good point but this has very little to do with it. The people who would benift most financially aren&#39;t even in the debate at this time because we don&#39;t really know who that would be.

B. Definatlly a true oberservation, this opinion is based on historical examples where this has so often been the case while the reverse is so rarely true.

C. Anything that reduces public sector thus moving decision making down to its lowest possible level is a move in the right direction.

D. The Republican&#39;s might find this as a nice side benifit but I don&#39;t think it has anything to do with the why? Don&#39;t forget that the teacher&#39;s union is generally considered across the country as one of the worst organizations in the country because they do more to obstruct progress than just about anyone else. The problem for the teachers union is that unlike other unions their obstructionist methods are recognized by just about every parent. And that opinion is held by more than just republicans. The only saving grace is that they have been able to convince many that they are well underpaid by obfuscating the very benifitial effects of ten-year and furthering their own eduction. Of course the trick is to get the first just before the later comes into effect. Of course on the other hand this could be viewed as a moot point as the voucher system would not destroy the union. It would only add more competition to the sector. Which at best would only loosen the unions stronghold on the sector. The author of the article claims vouchers are an attack on teachers unions, well I have to ask. What makes him think that teachers in the private sector couldn&#39;t form a union? Sure not as many will, but that doesn&#39;t mean the option won&#39;t be there.

E. Moot point, the opposing rhetoric can do the same.


An important part of this is too remember that no one is saying to get rid of public schools. Just to give the parents an option. The public schools will still be there, they will just have to compete for their customers by providing the best service.



Newsflash: Many people outside the USA hate Americans because of how ignorant they are. I have had to explain to a countless number of people that Guatemala is in Central America, and that its right under mexico even after that they tell me : "is it next to brazil" . And then one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, people(some) in one of my college class did not know the UK was an Island.
American&#39;s view geography as a useless subject and have plenty of news in their own country to focus on. This is not new news.


LOL, watching "street smarts" that tv show, they asked this women how many states are there in the USA? she said "48", person asking the question: "no" , stupid women "hahahaha, I should know this im a social studies teacher" . If im that person that ask the question I smack her with the microphone just for being a retard (jk), but i would say something to her.
Technically that is an understandable answer. When you say "in" instead of "a part of" then the difference between CONUS states and all states becomes somewhat vauge. Had she said some other number then ya smack her in the head. But with an answer of 48 then you need to clarify the question because she is obviously thinking your question is alluding to those connected as part of CONUS.



If there is anything to blame for the idiocy of the youth of America, it&#39;s not the public education system that has been forced to condense everything down to flash-facts, it&#39;s the corporate glitz that lassos the youth (and many older middle-aged people) and re-directs their priorities away from more educational... less desirable forms of time management
The problem is that it is not within my rights to force those people to adhear to what I think is proper time managment.


There were actually two reasonings behind that post. One was distraction and the other was exposure. Americans could be as exposed as the rest of Europe, if they took time away and actually made that step to know who the leaders of other countries are... what languages they speak... WHERE they are... etc. Perhaps then, American&#39;s wouldn&#39;t be given the &#39;ignorant&#39; stigma and our school credibility would go up slightly
What you fail to realize is that americans already do this. We have 50 states all with different issues, priorities, and cultures. American&#39;s not knowning who is currently running Spain is about the equivilant of Germans not knowing who is running Ughanda. Much of this misunderstanding stems from the lack of Europeans to realize that the US is not a single entity.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 07:02 AM
Newsflash: Many people outside the USA hate Americans because of how ignorant they are. I have had to explain to a countless number of people that Guatemala is in Central America, and that its right under mexico even after that they tell me : "is it next to brazil" :o . And then one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, people(some) in one of my college class did not know the UK was an Island. :o :lol: :lol:

So, all of a sudden, corporations will teach yankee kids that Guatemala isn&#39;t it Paraguay&#33; Wow. I don&#39;t know how will they measure that private will be more "efficient" than public, until those kids grow up and show their level of stupidity.


The USA education system is a piece of shit, It sucks, and when gov. control education they control what they want you to learn and what they dont want you to learn (of course all of you are for this).

Private schools would do the same, teaching kids that those "brown men" will work for 2 cents a month, so that this stupid yankee kids go and exploit them.


I dont care about the motives republicans have with privatizing schools, I think it should be done because why should the gov. have a monopoly on education? look how well they have done with education? :blink:
(my mom is a teacher and she told me that when she was teaching 7 th grade she was told that many 7th graders read at a 3rd grade level and that she had to "dumb down" how she thought her class so the morons that read at a 3rd grade level would not fail) this happens when schools dont fail kids that cant pass the 3rd grade. This only keeps on getting worse and worse, yet everyone here is in love with the great Education system of America. :lol: :lol:

Why should corporations have the monopoly then? And as Osman Ghazi said, as not everyone will benefit from going to school, a big part of the population (the poor) will be even more stupid.


p.s. The greatest thing about reading articles like this and hearing the responses is how everyone thinks the republican party is a piece of shit but they think the democratic party is different, NO MORONS, they are the same crap. Why do you think the democratic party does not want to privatize schools? could it be that they dont want to lose votes? :o , just like the republicans dont want to lose votes.

I thought everyone here thought that the democrats were still cappies.

I went my whole childhood to the same private school (which still got some public fundings which apparently went to the owners pockets), and the education was pretty good, it was quite authoritarian, but the place sucked&#33; And other private schools aren&#39;t too different but some have a worse education&#33; So there&#39;s no real difference, because after all one school (the best) will get a monopoly once the others fail, and they will indoctrinate without limits.
And all the kids&#39;s parents were hardly ever poor. The proletarian sends kids to the public schools, the bourgueoisie to private schools. The proletarian kids education isn&#39;t that good, the burgueoisie&#39;s is not very different, but later they will be able to pay for a university, while the poor kids will not, so in this new world they will starve. If public school dissapears, the poor will not be able to pay for a good school (that&#39;s if they won&#39;t be able to pay for a school). The need for poor people to exploit and the need for proffesionals will bring back public school if privatized. Plus nothing guarantees that there will be enough competition in private schools.

[el_profe]

El infiltrado, if there was competition between schools to have a better education so peoples children could get into better collages or get scholarships then you would see schools with a much better education system then the crap the gov. runs.
The more schools there are the cheaper they will become giving parents with less resources a chance to send there kids to a better school. But now the gov. takes your money (taxes) and wastes it one a crappy education system and you have to work more or spend more if you want your child to get a better education.

You say your private school was authoritarian, in some way schools have to be authoritarian, youre there to learn, do you also want the prisoners to run the prisons?

Bottom line: the USA education system sucks. And until Americans dont decide that theyre is actually a world outside the USa (europe, africa, asia, latin america) then people will still dislike the fact that americans are so ignorant. Im not talking about learning the history of every place but just knowing where ost countries are on a map would be a start.

Also look at the problem they are having in France, they want to ban children from wearing a cross or the muslim girls from wearing that stupid thing on there heads and jews from wearing a necklace with a star.
This problem would not even happen with private schools, if your school does not let you wear something religious then you just go to another school.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:05 PM
El infiltrado, if there was competition between schools to have a better education so peoples children could get into better collages or get scholarships then you would see schools with a much better education system then the crap the gov. runs.
The only way the education can improve is completely renewing what&#39;s taught and how it&#39;s taught. And there are many countries who have public education and people knows that China isn&#39;t Tokyo&#39;s capital city.


The more schools there are the cheaper they will become giving parents with less resources a chance to send there kids to a better school.

Nope, their kids will go to cheaper schools (fi they have money to send them of course), which will not very that good, especially considering that there will be many students on them. The elite will still be able to send their stupid kids to the "best" schools and after that send them to Harvard so that they become the next Bu&#036;h.


But now the gov. takes your money (taxes) and wastes it one a crappy education system and you have to work more or spend more if you want your child to get a better education.

You will have to work more and spend more if they are privatized anyway.


You say your private school was authoritarian, in some way schools have to be authoritarian, youre there to learn, do you also want the prisoners to run the prisons?

Good comparison that of the prisons. :lol: But my point is that authority will only make you a weak idiot, and in fact I remember students that tend to see the problems in their schools and try to fix them by themselves, sorta like a syndicate. In my school "protests" happened sometimes and the old authoritarian idiots had to accept them. We reached some improvements in some things but at the same time they will come with a populist speech to calm us down. Then everyone would shut up and do nothing until the next time they feel affected. You don&#39;t learn by authority, you only get indoctrinated by it.


Also look at the problem they are having in France, they want to ban children from wearing a cross or the muslim girls from wearing that stupid thing on there heads and jews from wearing a necklace with a star.
This problem would not even happen with private schools, if your school does not let you wear something religious then you just go to another school.

What if the education is the best??? Hmm...

[Iepilei]

Um, I understand how people in the United States think - as I live in Texas.

You make it sound as if the people in the US are so concerned about local politics. Try sitting through a political science class where they ask the students, "who is your current governer?" or "who is your elected representative in congress?"

The silence is amazing.

However the ultimate irony lies in the fact that, when given a US CITIZENSHIP test, almost all american students (born and raised) receive a failing grade. US citizens have a broad array of sections in it to focus on, but so does Germany. It&#39;s no excuse for bad knowledge of world politics and international understanding and it certainly doesn&#39;t excuse the lack of understanding when it comes to their own system.

Being a student in American HS and living around a moderate-conservative society for most of my teenage life I can honestly say, the glitz sells.