Looks like we've found what's been killing the Bees...

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Long story short? It's the Neonic Pesticide. (http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2016/01/epa-finds-major-pesticide-toxic-bees)

You know, one of the most widely used pesticides on the planet.

Looks like Rachel Carson was vindicated yet again.

For the record, a lot of people have known about this for years, it's just that now the EPA is actually making it official. Apparently they started taking action in the EU back in 2013, but the U.S. is full of goddamn morons in power who have their palms greased by the Chemical companies.

[Lord Testicles]

As you say this has been know for a while, at least since 2013. I don't see how "Rachel Carson is vindicated yet again" though.

[Os Cangaceiros]

DDT may have been bad in certain situations, I'm not familiar enough with Carson's work to be able to give an accurate judgement on it. But DDT is also the substance responsible for saving more human lives than any other that I can think of (somewhere along the lines of 500 million). It proved to be invaluable in the fight against malaria.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

DDT may have been bad in certain situations, I'm not familiar enough with Carson's work to be able to give an accurate judgement on it. But DDT is also the substance responsible for saving more human lives than any other that I can think of (somewhere along the lines of 500 million). It proved to be invaluable in the fight against malaria.

Didn't Carson just oppose DDT use in agriculture? I don't think DDT was ever banned in malaria prevention.

Basically, I think there's a significant difference in using pesticide to control a dangerous pest, and using it to keep farmland profitable. A quick skim of the wiki article on DDT says that it is still used in Malaria ridden countries, meaning it is wrong to say that somehow the US banning its use in agriculture killed people by exposing them to Malaria in sub saharan Africa.

[Lord Testicles]

Carson might have just opposed DDT use in agriculture but her claims that DDT caused eggshell thinning have never been proven in laboratory experiments, neither has her claim that DDT causes cancer or that DDT was causing a declining in the populations of bald eagles, ospreys or peregrine falcons.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It should be noted that pesticide use against Malaria isn't a panacea, and if overused will actually stop being so useful since the organisms with a higher tolerance for the chemical will be more likely to survive.

That said, countries with malaria problems still use DDT to control it, so it does seem unfair to use that line to criticize environmentalists opposed to DDT (I'm sure there are fanatic environmentalists/deep ecology/primmy types who oppose all use)


Carson might have just opposed DDT use in agriculture but her claims that DDT caused eggshell thinning have never been proven in laboratory experiments, neither has her claim that DDT causes cancer or that DDT was causing a declining in the populations of bald eagles, ospreys or peregrine falcons.

I dont know if it was ever conclusively established, but there are peer reviewed articles indicating there may be a causal link.

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/168/3931/594.short

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cecilia_Berg/publication/6773462_Embryonic_exposure_to_op_'-DDT_causes_eggshell_thinning_and_altered_shell_gla nd_carbonic_anhydrase_expression_in_the_domestic_h en/links/0046352aabb7b9b86d000000.pdf

It does seem reasonable to think that a chemical toxic to pests might have some toxic effects on other life forms, too, especially due to the increased concentration as you move up the tropic levels.

[Red Red Chile]

It makes me realize even more that the burden of proof that something is not a hazard should be on the polluters. As it is now the environment is the guinea pig and we stop doing damage to it when it's too late.

[Luís Henrique]

This discussion is not about DDT. DDT isn't a neonic (and it doesn't kill bees, which is also a problem, but of a different kind).

Let's not evade the issue: there is evidence that the use of neonics as pesticides is killing bees (which is a very serious problem because a lot of our agricultural products rely on bee pollination of plants). Whether DDT is a dangerous pollutant, or a miraculous solution to the problem of malaria, is completely irrelevant here.

Luís Henrique

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Luis - true but I think the tangent was inspired by a comment made in the OP

[Decolonize The Left]

For the record, a lot of people have known about this for years, it's just that now the EPA is actually making it official. Apparently they started taking action in the EU back in 2013, but the U.S. is full of goddamn morons in power who have their palms greased by the Chemical companies.

Only partially true. Yes, the chemical companies are at fault for lobbying and destroying any independent research on their products, but, there is ample fault to be found in modern beekeeping practices. In short, bees are traumatized their entire lives: queens are reared, separated from their colonies, shipped across the world; hives are manipulated and natural bee processes disrupted; honey is taken and substituted with artificial sweeteners, bees are given antibiotics almost continuously, and whole colonies (by the hundreds) are packed up and driven around for mono-cropping pollination.

In short, modern beekeeping is completely and utterly unsustainable. This fact, and not just the 'bad chemical companies' or the 'bad farmers using pesticides,' is to blame for the current crisis in pollinators.

[upgrayedd]

Neonicotinoids are used specifically because they present a low toxicity to humans (relatively speaking) while at the same time being wildly toxic to insects (due to nicotine sensitivity in the nervous system of insects). It's been hypothesized for several years that this was the case regarding the decline of the bee population.