Modern day Nazi-Soviet pact?

[PikSmeet]

I can understand Golden Daw being opposed to it, but why would the Stalinists in the KKE vote against same-sex civil-partnerships? :unsure:

From the article in the New Europe website:

In a result announced early Wednesday, lawmakers voted 193-56 in favor of the bill to extend civil partnerships to same-sex couples. 51 lawmakers abstained from the vote, while many voted at will, without taking consideration their party’s political line.

From the centre-right opposition “New Democracy,” 19 lawmakers voted in favour while from the right-wing coalition party “Independent Greeks” three lawmakers also voted yes. The two parties which voted against the bill, were the extreme-right “Golden Dawn” and the Greek Communist Party (KKE).

[Blake's Baby]

Because the KKE are Stalinists and the Stalinists have always regarded homosexuality as 'bourgeois deviation'. Despite the fact that homosexuality was legalised in the early Soviet Republic, Stalin criminalised it again in 1933.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

Marx and Engels are also accused of saying homophobic things in private letters; why aren't all Marxists homophobic then? Stalin's personal prejudices are not a part of Stalinism or Marxism-Leninism, so it seems somewhat ludicrous to suggest all Stalinists are homophobic.

[Sasha]

yeah, i dont think the KKE's opposition on this subject is marxist or even stalinist dogma, its far worse, its a clear expression of the KKE being a deeply reactionary outfit of white workingclass resentment. The fact that their reactionary-ism is expressed through Stalinist nationalism instead of bourgeois nationalism or fascist nationalism will matter little in the end, a "communist" regime as they will establish if ever given the chance will start to shoot and torture libertarian communists probably even faster than a fascist one.
the KKE is the perfect example of "the peoples stick".

[Blake's Baby]

Not sure that Marx & Engels' private correspondence contains a kind of secret virus that infects those of us who've read the Manifesto. Maybe it does.

When Stalin's 'personal prejudices' become the law of the Soviet Union, I think your contention is provably false. I'm sure there may be people who consider themselves Stalinists who aren't homophobes, but being anti-LGBT is part of Stalinism.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

Maybe if Stalinism refers to every detail of Stalin's actions, though you could be referring to Marxism-Leninism. It's important to note that there was mounting pressure, mainly from the Eastern Orthodox Church, to criminalise homosexuality. I say this only because the KKE is one of the only pro-Stalin groups that is homophobic, though if you're actually just using Stalinists to mean Orthodox followers of ALL Soviet policy under Stalin then I apologise.

[Sasha]

I say this only because the KKE is one of the only pro-Stalin groups that is homophobic,

are not almost all existing "official" CP's that uphold Stalin to a bigger or lesser extend deeply homophobic?
the only difference between the KKE and say a CPRF is that the KKE never managed to take power.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

The ones I know of in the UK (as well as a few in the US) do not hold a homophobic position, though worldwide I am unsure.

[Guardia Rossa]

there was mounting pressure, mainly from the Eastern Orthodox Church, to criminalise homosexuality.

So now reactionary groups rule over our Great Leader? :rolleyes:

As for Stalinists being homophobic, it's a major trend in Brazil, with pro-LGBT stalinists being ridiculed.

Hell, even feminist stalinists are ridiculed.

[Blake's Baby]

Maybe if Stalinism refers to every detail of Stalin's actions, though you could be referring to Marxism-Leninism. It's important to note that there was mounting pressure, mainly from the Eastern Orthodox Church, to criminalise homosexuality. I say this only because the KKE is one of the only pro-Stalin groups that is homophobic, though if you're actually just using Stalinists to mean Orthodox followers of ALL Soviet policy under Stalin then I apologise.

Not really, 'Stalinism' really refers to 'acceptance of Socialism in One Country' and therefore it doesn't particularly have a 'social' component as such. However, the history of LGBT rights in countries that have had Marxist-Leninist revolutions or been subject to ML governments (including China, Cuba, Belarus etc) is pretty appalling. I don't think that's an accident.

[Guardia Rossa]

I don't know if Belarus might be called Stalinist.
More like Nationalist Autocracy ruled in the favour of an oligarchy.

EDIT: Oh wait.

[piet11111]

deeply reactionary outfit of white workingclass resentment.

Wow learned something new i always figured stalinism was the exact opposite of a working class movement.

[Sasha]

Wow learned something new i always figured stalinism was the exact opposite of a working class movement.

Depends where you are at, in the west its mostly angsty middle class kids and tenured professors but in places like greece and italy it pretty much overlaps with blue collar union jobs, dockers, car factory workers etc.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

Not really, 'Stalinism' really refers to 'acceptance of Socialism in One Country' and therefore it doesn't particularly have a 'social' component as such. However, the history of LGBT rights in countries that have had Marxist-Leninist revolutions or been subject to ML governments (including China, Cuba, Belarus etc) is pretty appalling. I don't think that's an accident.

This is much akin to the argument that the American media was the cause of anti-war sentiment across the USA in the mid-late 60s, as opposed to the more truthful notion - the media simply reflected the already growing anti-war sentiment, just as previously they only showed a pro-war perspective. The same is true of Marxist-Leninist governments in the 20th century; most of their leaders had been born in anti-homosexual time periods, in countries far less socially advanced than even the reactionary western imperialist powers. Their policies reflected the social views ingrained in their respective populations, and while reactionary are somewhat understandable even if they aren't condonable.

[Blake's Baby]

Ah, of course, because the job of Marxists is to reflect the world, not to change it.

Stalin changed the laws on homosexuality because Russia was socially backward. Unlike Russia between 1917-33 of course, when somehow it wasn't socially backward.

[Communist Mutant From Outer Space]

Changing the law did very little in terms of changing attitudes. Myths of homosexuality as a trait of the aristocracy were widely believed, and while Lenin did decriminalize it he did not fight the attitude of the time by doing so - I think they should have politicised the issue more, but it was hardly their biggest problem. I'm pansexual myself, so it does bother me - however, I can appreciate the historical context of the USSR under Lenin and Stalin.

[Invader Zim]

I think others have done a good job in sinking this comparison, but one issue which hasn't been raised is the dissimilarity between this, which is just your everyday Tankie socially reactionary mode of thought and the crime committed by the Stalinist regime against the global working classes in 1939, when it willingly enabled Nazi Germany for a share of the spoils of imperialism.

[Aslan]

I think its more of a cultural thing than ideological. In Albania where I lived, back during ole' uncle Enver, every corner of society was filled with homophobia. People didn't talk about it, it was scandalous, and anyone open about it... Well I don't know...

But it is in my opinion a culture thing, though I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong and Stalinist organizations in the west were also homophobic.

[Invader Zim]

They are rampantly homophobic.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

are not almost all existing "official" CP's that uphold Stalin to a bigger or lesser extend deeply homophobic?
the only difference between the KKE and say a CPRF is that the KKE never managed to take power.

Neither have the KPRF, thankfully. And the KPRF actively beat up gay people. I've never heard the KKE do the same, though according to the people in Greece I know they're not above using homophobic rhetoric.


They are rampantly homophobic.

It depends on the flavour of Stalinism. Maoists and Hoxhists tend to be homophobic, to an extent that far surpasses Stalin. "Official" CPs tend to be homophobic but keep it under wraps, as it tends to disqualify you among younger voters and these parties have resigned to being nothing more than another parliamentary group.

But e.g. Marcy's group was pretty good on gay rights, although they did originate in Trotskyism.

[Emmett Till]

Neither have the KPRF, thankfully. And the KPRF actively beat up gay people. I've never heard the KKE do the same, though according to the people in Greece I know they're not above using homophobic rhetoric.

It depends on the flavour of Stalinism. Maoists and Hoxhists tend to be homophobic, to an extent that far surpasses Stalin. "Official" CPs tend to be homophobic but keep it under wraps, as it tends to disqualify you among younger voters and these parties have resigned to being nothing more than another parliamentary group.

But e.g. Marcy's group was pretty good on gay rights, although they did originate in Trotskyism.

The Marcyites are funny. For most of their existence, they were "closet" Trotskyists. Brief public appearance of that after the USSR collapse, with Workers World running articles about how it proved that Trotsky and the Left Opposition were right. I read them, perfectly orthodox Trotskyism abstractly.

But now with most of the old guard, starting with Marcy himself of course, gone, the mask is slowly becoming the face, and most of your younger recruits from both wings of Marcyism are Stalin fans. But if you manage to catch the actual leaders aside and talk to them with nobody else around, they will still I do believe whisper that they are Trotskyists.

The official position of the WWP and the other group is--that they have no position on Trotsky v. Stalin, and want all Leninists to get along in one happy family and forget the past.

BTW, comparison of this to the Nazi-Soviet Pact is unfortunate. Not only doesn't the KKE beat up gays, it does firmly oppose those who do, namely Golden Dawn, and I think they have occasionally criticized Golden Dawn for that.

And remember, supporting same-sex marriage, though we all certainly should, is not exactly the most important issue in the world.

All heterosexuals in particular should support same sex marriage. Why shouldn't gays suffer as much under the chains of matrimony as everyone else?

Where do they get off calling themselves "gay" anyway, when everyone else is so miserable?;)

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

are not almost all existing "official" CP's that uphold Stalin to a bigger or lesser extend deeply homophobic?
the only difference between the KKE and say a CPRF is that the KKE never managed to take power.


Not really, 'Stalinism' really refers to 'acceptance of Socialism in One Country' and therefore it doesn't particularly have a 'social' component as such. However, the history of LGBT rights in countries that have had Marxist-Leninist revolutions or been subject to ML governments (including China, Cuba, Belarus etc) is pretty appalling. I don't think that's an accident.

To the credit of the Castro regime, there has been a lot of self-criticism regarding the views towards gays, especially during the first two decades of revolution. Castro even apologized for it, and a Stalinist publicly acknowledging and apologizing for an atrocity under their leadership is about as common as a dog that talks.


Changing the law did very little in terms of changing attitudes. Myths of homosexuality as a trait of the aristocracy were widely believed, and while Lenin did decriminalize it he did not fight the attitude of the time by doing so - I think they should have politicised the issue more, but it was hardly their biggest problem. I'm pansexual myself, so it does bother me - however, I can appreciate the historical context of the USSR under Lenin and Stalin.

Perhaps this is the case, but I've never before heard of a serious social backlash against Soviet laws on homosexuality.

Moreover, abortion is also viewed very negatively by many popular classes, but some Stalinist regimes did drastically increase access to abortion (Cuba and the later USSR - after Stalin died, the USSR legalized abortion again). If people can handle millions of fetuses being destroyed, I think they can handle two men or two women having sex and not getting thrown in some godforsaken gulag over it. It's not like there were social "wedge issues" in the USSR the same way there is in a bourgeois western democracy.

[Blake's Baby]

... a Stalinist publicly acknowledging and apologizing for an atrocity under their leadership is about as common as a dog that talks...

I once saw a dog on a TV programme that seemed to say 'sausages'.

So what you're saying is, after a long time of being homophobic, they became a bit less homophobic?

What I said was, '... have pretty appalling records on LGBT rights'.

Of course, so do the western democracies (British keeping homosexuals imprisoned by the Nazis in concentration camps after the war to serve out the their sentences, homosexuality only legalised in UK in 1968 or whatever it was etc). But the fact that we can compare so-called 'actually existing socialism' to nakedly capitalist states should, I think, be a wake-up call to anyone who sees anything 'progressive' in such regimes.

[PikSmeet]

Well, their website proudly proclaims that they are a thorn in the side of social democracy...except when they need to enter into a pact with the social democrats.
Shame they are not or ever have been a thorn in the side of capitalism, but then what is Stalinism but state capitalism.